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Lucy...You got some susplainin to do!

beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133 ✭
in General Discussion
Somebody help me out here! Been reading a lot about folks aging cigars. Not just buying a bunch of sticks to have for later date, but aging for a better smoke.
So company A decides to make a stick. They select the tobacco, schedule it for rolling, roll a batch, taste and tweek, then they go into full production. Something like this.
I've read where they will tell you when it will be available to the general public. Usually sometime before that happens, a bunch of elite guys with real sensitive taste buds get it, smoke it, and give it a grade.
So company A has boxes of this stick that gets a 94 rating from the elite guys with sensitive taste buds. Then they ship it to retailers.
Something in the back of my brain tells me I want this stick ROTT. Will it rate a 95 after 6 months?, or does it start losing points during that time? It is a 94 now. I'm gonna smoke it.

As a corollary to that question, I would ask - , Do all sticks get smoother and better after 6 months? If so, the obvious solution would be to not smoke any until then. If not, Lucy, what would make one stick age better than others.

I might also note that it appears that most people only age expensive sticks? Surely the "see what I have in my humi" factor affects this. I'll smoke that Opus X ROTT, thank you.

Comments

  • DSWarmackDSWarmack Posts: 1,426 ✭
    GOOOOD Question, I am interested in this too! What is the difference between aging and storing?
  • ironhorseironhorse Posts: 469 ✭
    Not an expert on this, but here is how I view it.....If the stick is brand new to the market with newer tobacco, and it's a spicier, full bodied blend, it will probably get better with age (1year plus). Something like a MOW Armada would be a good example of a stick with great aging potential. 6 months is not "aging" in my opinion. 6 months is "resting" in which you let the humidity stay constant and let the oils settle in. Aging is when you plan on some of the oils blending togethor to create a more balanced flavor. Once again, sticks that contain powerful leaves can benefit from this more than medium/mild, but that is not to say that all cigars can not benefit from a little more time in the humidor. Some companies will keep tobacco aged before they put it in a blend anyway. Thats why they hire expensive blenders to come up with new cigars
    My opinion, save very few cigars for aging, but "rest" all of your cigars for as long as you can. Aging cigars is a very stressful process for what seems like very little benefit over properly "resting" a cigar to make sure its ready to be smoked. Of course Kuzi is number 1 in this department, so I'm sure he can add/correct my opinion
  • RCY_CigarsRCY_Cigars Posts: 5,493 ✭✭✭
    ironhorse:
    Not an expert on this, but here is how I view it.....If the stick is brand new to the market with newer tobacco, and it's a spicier, full bodied blend, it will probably get better with age (1year plus). Something like a MOW Armada would be a good example of a stick with great aging potential. 6 months is not "aging" in my opinion. 6 months is "resting" in which you let the humidity stay constant and let the oils settle in. Aging is when you plan on some of the oils blending togethor to create a more balanced flavor. Once again, sticks that contain powerful leaves can benefit from this more than medium/mild, but that is not to say that all cigars can not benefit from a little more time in the humidor. Some companies will keep tobacco aged before they put it in a blend anyway. Thats why they hire expensive blenders to come up with new cigars
    My opinion, save very few cigars for aging, but "rest" all of your cigars for as long as you can. Aging cigars is a very stressful process for what seems like very little benefit over properly "resting" a cigar to make sure its ready to be smoked. Of course Kuzi is number 1 in this department, so I'm sure he can add/correct my opinion


    My thoughts from a noobie point of view. Which I'm still learning. Okay let's see here. Aging is more for the finishing process of the cigar. Over time, say for instance you have a cigar that is strong from birth. As it ages, the harshness and power of that cigar tones down. And makes for a more mellow refined smoke. I would think that a mild cigar starting out will become more smooth and creamy as it ages. Well storage is basically maintaining for that next smoke. I do believe there is no aging there but a resting period. Because you are in and out of that humidor.

    Disclaimer.....These are my opinions and I'm new. From the tidbits of researching between setting up my next launch sequence. This is what I found. I'm pretty sure Kuzi and other's will square this post away.
  • boydmcgowanboydmcgowan Posts: 1,101 ✭
    Good question. There are a bunch of threads on here that go into just about every aspect of agina a cigar. Like this on here "http://www.cigar.com/cs/forums/thread/78770.aspx" No clue how to make a link out of it, but you can use that url or just search for a thread titled "expiration date?" in the general discussion section i think. That has alot of useful info.

    In general though it seems that peopel have some differing views on this, but there are some basics. If the cigar is from a reputable manufacturer it has already been throuh several rounds of aging, or curing or fermenting or all of the above before it gets to the consumer. Alex actually posted a really informative thread about this a while back, but I foget what it was called and can't find it when I search. If someone could find that link that would be great, I'd be interested in rereading that. I'm pretty sure he went into the details of each step of making a cigar and what happens to the tobacco at each step. So theoretically every cigar from a reputable company should be ready to smoke ROTT.

    That being said, you can age them to further enhance what you already have. Typically the stronger the cigar the longer you can age it. Most people think that a mild connie will peak in the 1-3 year range, and then the stonger you get you can push out that timeline out further. And typically the first thing to mellow out is the spicyness, which oftentimes bring out alot of the background flavors which are overpowerd by spice ROTT.

    But definitely read the thread that I found above and try to find that one that Alex posted a while back. Becuase they will be alot more helpful than I am. haha. It might have been in a thread asking what the oldest smoke everyone has had was. I forget, but I want to say it was in the last 4-5 months.
  • bigharpoonbigharpoon Posts: 2,963 ✭✭✭
    It's not being expensive that makes them good candidates for aging, it's the strength of the leaf. The oils and flavors of the leaves slowly mix together, like a good spaghetti sauce, and over time become smoother and a little more mellow. I believe it's the subtlety of the achieved smoothness that is the big gain in aging a cigar.

    Not all cigars are good candidates. If they are too mild to begin with aging can wash out their flavors almost entirely, creating a boring, tasteless stick.

    I brought this same question up when I discovered this forum. I've learned that cigar companies have so much inventory for so many years that to keep many of their lines of cigars for even longer would just be impractical. So, they age them enough so that they are mature enough to smoke and release them to the public. Some of their more exclusive lines will be kept to age longer before their release but in general, if you want some aging smoothness you have to do it yourself.

    Here's what Alex had to say about the tobacco harvesting process in that thread, over 2 years ago:

    Alex Svenson:
    Great points on all fronts. When making a cigar, there are several stages. Fermentations and maturations.

    Fermentation 1: leaves are cured in a barn for 45 days. This is where they turn from green to brown.

    Fermentation 2: Leaves are moved to pilones (stacks). Heat sweats out much of the by product of the tobacco. This leaves the tobacco having a less edgy taste and brings out its sweeter qualities. Heavy tannons are broken down at this stage. Depending on the type of toabacco, this process can be repeated 3 or 4 times and can take up to three years.

    Maturation 1: Leaves are dried to an internal r/h of 15% and packed in bales where they age. This is what is truly known as tobacco aging. When people say the "found an old bale of tobacco", it is at this step. During this time, tannons are further broken down and the tobacco settles. As you might imagine, Fermentation 2 is very hard on the leaf.

    Fermentation 3: The leaf is taking from the bales inmaturation 1, and given to the rollers. To make the leaf pliable, it must be rewet. Reweting the leaf restarts a final fermentation and activates a process similar to Fermentation 2, but on a much less complex level and without the aid of a pilone.

    Maturation 2: After being rolled, the cigars enter the aging room at the factory where they sit for anywhere from 30 to 120 days. Here the the temperature is controlled to allow Fermentation 3 to end. As the cigars enter the aging room, they have a very amonic smell and when they are down with Maturation 2, they should have lost it completely and much of the water that was present in the tobacco ont he way in, should have left the cigar. Watching a cigar maker in his aging room is amazing. He feels his cigars, listens to them while he rolls them between his fingers and smells them. The cigars tell the maker when they are ready to be packed.

    Maturation 3: The third maturation lasts as long as five years. During this time, the the most important thing that occurs is the marriage of the tobaccos within the cigar. The oils from the leaves meld and the cigar takes on a more rounded flavor. To a lesser degree, the tobacco continues to age like it did in Maturation 1 with tannic breakdown.

    Maturation 4: Occurs 5 to 15 years after packing. Not much more marrying but defined by extreme tanic breakdown in the leaf. Depending on the type of cigar, oils can dissolve.

    Maturation 5: Over 15 years, extreme tannic breakdown and near total dissolution of oils

    For the most part all cigars are the same up to maturation 2, after that, each cigar takes a more unique path. For example some cigars may enter maturation 3 in 3 years or even 2 rather than 5. It depends on the tobacco, cigar, and storage conditions. Once you practice and study, you can get the hang of how a cigar will aged based on its components and environment. Our cigar consultants are good at helping customers with this when they want to age something. In my humble opinion, all cigars are best toward the end of maturation 3 and the beginning of maturation 4. Once you get too far into maturation 4, the cigar looses many of its best qualities. I think there is such a thing as too much aging. I like my smokes married and rested. It is also worth noting that after maturation 3, the ability to detect specific aromas becomes increasingly difficult. The cigar is still complex, but the flavor is delivered in a more uniform, rounded package.

    Okay, more ranting. Interesting tid bit of info for those interested. People talk about "green" or "young cigars". There are two types. One type is when a Fermentation 2 is not done to completion. If this tobacco is made into a cigar, it is unfixable and you are stuck with a bad smoke. It will have an extremely dirty and tannic taste and awful finish. If fermentation 2 is not done to completion, the cigars will taste like crap. The second type of youth is when a factory skips maturation 2. If you ever opened a box of cigars and smelled amonia, it is because the cigars did not get enough time in the aging room and they are still winding down from fermentation 3. Fortunately, the cigars are not ruined, but you need put them away for at least two or three months to let maturation 2 complete.
  • boydmcgowanboydmcgowan Posts: 1,101 ✭
    bigharpoon:
    Here's what Alex had to say about the tobacco harvesting process in that thread, over 2 years ago:

    Alex Svenson:
    Great points on all fronts. When making a cigar, there are several stages. Fermentations and maturations.

    Fermentation 1: leaves are cured in a barn for 45 days. This is where they turn from green to brown.

    Fermentation 2: Leaves are moved to pilones (stacks). Heat sweats out much of the by product of the tobacco. This leaves the tobacco having a less edgy taste and brings out its sweeter qualities. Heavy tannons are broken down at this stage. Depending on the type of toabacco, this process can be repeated 3 or 4 times and can take up to three years.

    Maturation 1: Leaves are dried to an internal r/h of 15% and packed in bales where they age. This is what is truly known as tobacco aging. When people say the "found an old bale of tobacco", it is at this step. During this time, tannons are further broken down and the tobacco settles. As you might imagine, Fermentation 2 is very hard on the leaf.

    Fermentation 3: The leaf is taking from the bales inmaturation 1, and given to the rollers. To make the leaf pliable, it must be rewet. Reweting the leaf restarts a final fermentation and activates a process similar to Fermentation 2, but on a much less complex level and without the aid of a pilone.

    Maturation 2: After being rolled, the cigars enter the aging room at the factory where they sit for anywhere from 30 to 120 days. Here the the temperature is controlled to allow Fermentation 3 to end. As the cigars enter the aging room, they have a very amonic smell and when they are down with Maturation 2, they should have lost it completely and much of the water that was present in the tobacco ont he way in, should have left the cigar. Watching a cigar maker in his aging room is amazing. He feels his cigars, listens to them while he rolls them between his fingers and smells them. The cigars tell the maker when they are ready to be packed.

    Maturation 3: The third maturation lasts as long as five years. During this time, the the most important thing that occurs is the marriage of the tobaccos within the cigar. The oils from the leaves meld and the cigar takes on a more rounded flavor. To a lesser degree, the tobacco continues to age like it did in Maturation 1 with tannic breakdown.

    Maturation 4: Occurs 5 to 15 years after packing. Not much more marrying but defined by extreme tanic breakdown in the leaf. Depending on the type of cigar, oils can dissolve.

    Maturation 5: Over 15 years, extreme tannic breakdown and near total dissolution of oils

    For the most part all cigars are the same up to maturation 2, after that, each cigar takes a more unique path. For example some cigars may enter maturation 3 in 3 years or even 2 rather than 5. It depends on the tobacco, cigar, and storage conditions. Once you practice and study, you can get the hang of how a cigar will aged based on its components and environment. Our cigar consultants are good at helping customers with this when they want to age something. In my humble opinion, all cigars are best toward the end of maturation 3 and the beginning of maturation 4. Once you get too far into maturation 4, the cigar looses many of its best qualities. I think there is such a thing as too much aging. I like my smokes married and rested. It is also worth noting that after maturation 3, the ability to detect specific aromas becomes increasingly difficult. The cigar is still complex, but the flavor is delivered in a more uniform, rounded package.

    Okay, more ranting. Interesting tid bit of info for those interested. People talk about "green" or "young cigars". There are two types. One type is when a Fermentation 2 is not done to completion. If this tobacco is made into a cigar, it is unfixable and you are stuck with a bad smoke. It will have an extremely dirty and tannic taste and awful finish. If fermentation 2 is not done to completion, the cigars will taste like crap. The second type of youth is when a factory skips maturation 2. If you ever opened a box of cigars and smelled amonia, it is because the cigars did not get enough time in the aging room and they are still winding down from fermentation 3. Fortunately, the cigars are not ruined, but you need put them away for at least two or three months to let maturation 2 complete.

    This is exactly the post I was looking for. Great info, thanks for posting, bigharpoon.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133 ✭
    Thanks bigharpoon. Alex sure has a way of susplainin things.
    I've been resting a couple of Opus X since December. So you guys say I shouldn't smoke it on my birthday (5/5). I probably wont listen to you. LOL
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    My personal experience is that not all sticks get better with age. I smoke most of mine ROTT, but do put some back for resting and aging. I have found some cigars lose the edge that I found very pleasureable ROTT. JMO
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    This is qite a question and there are quite a few answers here. A good portion has been covered but i will post my thoughts about this anyway. I seem to remember a recent thread where it is stated that having more than one opinion is a good thing because you can take from it what you want/need. So in that spirit...

    away we go...
    beatnic:
    Somebody help me out here! Been reading a lot about folks aging cigars. Not just buying a bunch of sticks to have for later date, but aging for a better smoke.
    So company A decides to make a stick. They select the tobacco, schedule it for rolling, roll a batch, taste and tweek, then they go into full production. Something like this.
    I've read where they will tell you when it will be available to the general public. Usually sometime before that happens, a bunch of elite guys with real sensitive taste buds get it, smoke it, and give it a grade.
    So company A has boxes of this stick that gets a 94 rating from the elite guys with sensitive taste buds. Then they ship it to retailers.
    Something in the back of my brain tells me I want this stick ROTT. Will it rate a 95 after 6 months?, or does it start losing points during that time? It is a 94 now. I'm gonna smoke it.
    im fairly sure many companies design their cigars to be smoked ROTT. This is why they have aging rooms. Most of the cigars that you see in your B&M or get from online were rolled and then set in the aging room until they feel it is done. I have seen these rooms. They are glorious.

    I had an extended conversation with Johnathan Drew about how he decides when to get the cigar from the aging room. Basically, he puts them out when they "taste right." they have a quality control department unlike any in the industry. This is the positive. The negative is that this is the reason why every now and again you cant find LP no.9 or a T-52.
    In a similar conversation at the AJ Fernandez Factory, Kris told me that the cigar wont leave the aging room unless AJ is good with it. Again, this is so that as soon as you buy that cigar it will be good. There is no need to age.

    as far as the rating thing goes...
    ratings are subjective. Is it a 95 for that guy with sensitive taste buds? Clearly it is. Is it a 95 for another guy with sensitive taste buds? Mabybe. Iduno.
    will it rate a 95 after six months?
    if it is the same guy smoking it, i would be willing to be that it would. 6 months is not that much time when it comes to age in a cigar. In THIS thread there is a discussion about exactly that. 6 months is just a rested cigar in my mind. All that will really happen is the humidity will even out. To get into age the word "years" should start to be thrown around. For many of the fuller cigars even one year is not much age.


    will it lose points?
    Maybe.
    or it could gain points depending on if the person rating the cigar enjoys cigars that are aged, smoother, or more of whatever quality that the age brings out on that cigar.



    beatnic:
    As a corollary to that question, I would ask - , Do all sticks get smoother and better after 6 months? If so, the obvious solution would be to not smoke any until then. If not, Lucy, what would make one stick age better than others.
    not all cigars "get smoother"
    some cigars are already smooth and the age wont make them any smoother.
    spicy cigars will be toned down, and if you like spice in a cigar then you may not like a cigar that starts off spicy but has been aged so much that the spice is gone.

    As far as "do all sticks get better?" goes, i dont think so. The Liga Privada No 9 (IMHO) does NOT get better with age. The LP9 DOES get smoother but it also lets more of the coffee profilel show through. Some will get better in your opinion, and some will not. Much of this is up to personal preference and trial and error.
    beatnic:


    I might also note that it appears that most people only age expensive sticks? Surely the "see what I have in my humi" factor affects this.
    most people age the expensive cigars because they may not have access to them ever again. I have been and still am guilty of this. There is a fun factor when it comes to owning a cigar. I have obtained all the cigars I have with the intent of smoking them. But I like to know that I have “X” cigar in my humidor.
    beatnic:
    I'll smoke that Opus X ROTT, thank you.
    awe... thats too bad. Because OpusX really do better after a year or two more of age.
    … of course that is only my opinion
    Kuzi's Forum Links Page
  • Russ55Russ55 Posts: 2,765 ✭✭
    I've wondered about that first question too. At what amount of age/rest does a rating get assigned to a certain stick? I suspect it's different for every stick, but I don't know.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Russ55:
    I've wondered about that first question too. At what amount of age/rest does a rating get assigned to a certain stick? I suspect it's different for every stick, but I don't know.
    does it matter given how subjective they are?
    Kuzi's Forum Links Page
  • Russ55Russ55 Posts: 2,765 ✭✭
    kuzi16:
    Russ55:
    I've wondered about that first question too. At what amount of age/rest does a rating get assigned to a certain stick? I suspect it's different for every stick, but I don't know.
    does it matter given how subjective they are?
    It really doesn't, and thinking about it that way, if anything, only strengthens my lack of faith in ratings.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133 ✭
    Hey guys. Thanks for all the responses. I knew I'd hear from you Kuzi16. Truth be told. I've never smoked an Opus X. I do have 2 Fuente/Fuentes resting in my humidor from December 2010. I was thinking about lighting one up on my birthday (cinco de mayo). The 2 Anejos that came with them went down super smooth within the last month.
    Don't think I haven't been paying attention. Alex's explanation was just what I needed as to the physical changes over time and temp. I'm a science kind of guy.
    You guys have all the time invested and the practical knowledge. I'm way behind on that.
    Still, birthday coming up, hmmm. I'll let you know.
    Hey, anyone know of any real good Mexican cigars? Most of the reviews I found used the word "dirt" at some point in the review?.
  • DiamondogDiamondog Posts: 4,169 ✭
    beatnic:
    Hey, anyone know of any real good Mexican cigars? Most of the reviews I found used the word "dirt" at some point in the review?.
    I quite enjoy Cohiba Blacks which have a mix of Dominican and Mexican filler...
  • LasabarLasabar Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    From my experience the more time it sits in your humidor the better it gets, but that's because MY humidor is at about 65-67% Rh and I like that Rh, not the 70-72% my B&M has.

    Also, my personal opinion is that I cannot go smoke a cigar at a B&M and truly enjoy it for I think it will be better with a few months of rest and it burns like hell from the Walk-in Humidor

    Aging blends the flavors for me and mellows a cigar, I only truly smoke during the summer so my buds get a rest for many months a year so the super spicy or full-bodied taste GREAT, but tire my tongue out over time, but when they've mellowed over a year or more than I can taste more and enjoy more.

    This is merely personal observations, but it DOES depend on the stick... I would not age a Rocky Patel Connecticut for very long, but I will say the best cigars and best BURN on a cigar I've ever had was one that had about a years age on it...

    YMMV
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Russ55:
    kuzi16:
    Russ55:
    I've wondered about that first question too. At what amount of age/rest does a rating get assigned to a certain stick? I suspect it's different for every stick, but I don't know.
    does it matter given how subjective they are?
    It really doesn't, and thinking about it that way, if anything, only strengthens my lack of faith in ratings.
    yeah... i have very little faith in ratings/reviews as well. i almost never read reviews. every now and then ill skim through a review if i want to know more about a cigar i have never tries or if i want to see what others thought of a cigar that i liked very much. even then i take them with a grain of salt.
    Kuzi's Forum Links Page
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    kuzi16:
    Russ55:
    kuzi16:
    Russ55:
    I've wondered about that first question too. At what amount of age/rest does a rating get assigned to a certain stick? I suspect it's different for every stick, but I don't know.
    does it matter given how subjective they are?
    It really doesn't, and thinking about it that way, if anything, only strengthens my lack of faith in ratings.
    yeah... i have very little faith in ratings/reviews as well. i almost never read reviews. every now and then ill skim through a review if i want to know more about a cigar i have never tries or if i want to see what others thought of a cigar that i liked very much. even then i take them with a grain of salt.
    I don't know how much stock I'd put in ratings, but I find reviews to be very helpful, yours among the top among them, kuzi. I think for those of us with less sophisticated/experienced palettes, reviews can be very helpful to know what we're looking for in a cigar and it can be a great experience in trying to taste the same things. Of course there's something to be said for just relaxing with it rather than agonizing over whether or not that really was raisin flavor I thought I tasted...but for the former occasion, a good, detailed review can be an amazing tool.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • JCizzleJCizzle Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭
    Diamondog:
    beatnic:
    Hey, anyone know of any real good Mexican cigars? Most of the reviews I found used the word "dirt" at some point in the review?.
    I quite enjoy Cohiba Blacks which have a mix of Dominican and Mexican filler...
    I had a Te Amo that I got from stephen_hannibal that was also a good smoke.
    Light 'em up.
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