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Fear of peace will be the death of Israel

By Bradley Burston
Tags: Goldstone, Israel News

[Part One of Two]

____________________

SHEIKH JARRAH, Jerusalem - As the grandson of anarchists, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for fanatics. Expressions of extremism, and passionately reasoned, exquisitely twisted world views make me feel, how shall I put this, at home.

So it was with a certain relish that I approached the cover story of a recent issue of Commentary, "The Deadly Price of Pursuing Peace," written as it was by a talented colleague and friend, Evelyn Gordon.

The thrust of the piece, which Commentary Editor John Podhoretz understandably calls "groundbreaking," is that Israel's international standing has plummeted to an unprecedented low - and the number of Palestinians killed by Israel has concurrently soared - specifically because of Israel's having done much too much for peace.

"The answer is unpleasant to contemplate, but the mounting evidence makes it inescapable," she writes. "It was Israel's very willingness to make concessions for the sake of peace that has produced its current near-pariah status."

The essay has the seamless, compellingly elegant, hyper-lucid, parallel universe logic of a hallucination - or a settlement rooted in the craw of the West Bank. Until I read it, it was difficult for me to comprehend the current runaway-freight recklessness of Israeli authorities and a certain segment of the hard right, bolstered by shady funding from abroad.

It was hard to fathom why Israeli police in this quiet hollow of the Arab half of Jerusalem, would choose to openly flout and violate the rulings of an Israeli court. I was unable to grasp why they would manhandle and arrest non-violent demonstrators - among them the executive director of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel - for protesting the official expulsion from their homes of more than two dozen Palestinian families here, driven out and into the street, so that subsidized and sheltered settlers could move in.

It was beyond my understanding why an Israeli government which views the idea of a Palestinian Right of Return as tantamount to annihilation of the Jewish state, would set a legal precedent that paves the way for just such a right.

Just as I was clueless as to why the Knesset was to vote Wednesday on a bill that would make aiding asylum seekers fleeing African genocide, granting them shelter, medical care, food, a crime subject to up to 20 years in prison.

Or why there were vigorous new campaigns to increase gender segregation at the Western Wall and on public buses, and why women have been arrested and interrogated on suspicion of having worn prayer shawls while praying on their side of a barrier raised so that they would no longer be able to watch their sons' bar mitzvah on the mens' side.

Or why a sudden and ferocious campaign against human rights organizations and charity work agencies in Israel is coinciding with new human rights outrages against Palestinians and foreigners, some of them unable to leave, others forced to.

It was not until I saw the title of the Commentary piece that it all made sense.

The right is terrified of peace. And, in the end, the right's fear of peace will be the death of Israel.

They are afraid of peace, in part, because it threatens the core of what has come to replace other values as the goal of Judaism: permanent settlement of the West Bank. But that is only a part of it.

They are afraid of peace because they are afraid of the world. They dismiss fellow Jews who want to see a two-state solution - a majority of Israelis - as unrealistic, as living in a bubble. The name of the bubble these moderates live in, however, is planet Earth.

The right, meanwhile, wants to wall off Israel as the world's last remaining legally mandated Jewish ghetto. A place where all the rules are different, exit and entry, citizenship and human rights, because the residents within are Jews. A place where non-Jews, dehumanized as congenital Jew-haters, are rendered invisible. A place which, if suffocating and insufferable, still seems safer than the scary world outside.

A place which, because of its walls and its politics and its cowardice, is losing its ability to function as a part of the world, reveling in cheap-shot humiliations of key foreign ambassadors, deliriously proud of its sense that of all the world, including most of its Jews and Israelis - only the right sees the real truth.

This braid of thought was venomously endorsed this week both by an uncharacteristically Kahane-sounding Alan Dershowitz, and the obscenely infantile Im Tirtzu movement. According to them, where Cast Lead was concerned, the real war criminals are Richard Goldstone and Naomi Chazan - two people who are open about their love of Israel, and who have worked their whole adult lives for its well-being.

The fears of the right are not mere devices of rhetoric. The risks of making peace are real. Every bit as real as the risks of failing to make peace.

It all comes down to belief. It comes down to the kind of country the believer wants Israel to be. And for that reason, there is a civil war going on for Israel's soul.

It will not be weaponry that decides this war, but courage. People who care about the direction that Israel is moving, and whose watchword is moderation, would do well to choose one facet of the fight, and join. One place to start, is to support the New Israel Fund and the groups it supports.

Another place to start is this one. At the weekend, challenging the threats of rightist thugs and law-scorning police, the weekly demonstration on behalf of the Palestinian residents of Sheikh Jarrah doubled in size. The police backed down on their vow to break up the protest, and the Kahanists barely showed.

If non-violent peace activism scares the right to this extent, there must be a great deal of power in it.

After all, most Israelis can sense that if peace is to be the enemy, more dangerous even than the threat of war, this is one doomed ghetto.

Things have reached such a devastating point, that for the first time in recent memory, even Ehud Barak is beginning to get it: "The simple truth is, if there is one state" including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, "it will have to be either binational or undemocratic," Barak told the Herzliya Conference Tuesday.

"If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

The fear of peace has left Israel as a country which is prepared for nuclear warfare but not for non-violent protest on behalf of Palestinians. The fear of peace, and the blackmail of the right on behalf of settlement, has contorted Israel into a body which, unable to countenance the perils of treating the sickness of occupation, will eventually be killed by it.

Israel's defense minister, for one, is convinced: "The lack of a solution to the problem of border demarcation within the historic Land of Israel - and not an Iranian bomb - is the most serious threat to Israel's future."

Comments

  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    So let me get this straight - you're posting an opinion piece that's commenting on another opinion peace, and trying to make a statement about Israeli domestic policy based on this "opinion of an opinion"? Get real.

    You post an opinion piece that's critical of Israel, but you're conveniently silent when it comes to Hamas' suicide bombers who target not only Israeli military, but civilians - men, women, and children - who are trying to go about their daily lives. Your piece is conveniently silent on the car bombs that used to routinely run into Israeli supermarkets before the wall was put up, killing hundreds of grocery shoppers at a time.

    And what of the blockade? Your piece is also conveniently silent on the fact that every one of Palestines neighbors have also blockaded Palenstine - your regurgitated opinion is devoid of any mention that one country's embargo is useless, that multiple countries have come to the same conclusion; instead, you ignorantly lay the entire mess upon a single country. Your piece also conveniently forgets to mention that Hamas was smuggling in guns, rockets, and bombs inside food and medical containers, that they were using the Palestinians' suffering and hunger as an excuse to re-arm themselves and continue conducting their war operations.

    But no, none of that is mentioned; it's far easier to demagogue and lambast "the right" as some sort of bogeyman, instead of engaging in a civilized political debate about another country's foreign/domestic policy (which, truth to tell, is about as ignorant as a european commenting on how Obama hasn't spent enough money to pull the US out of this recession). God forbid that the author should have an idea of their own, instead being reduced to posting someone elses opinion as if it were fact, and then hiding behind the eloquence of another mans words.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    So let me get this straight - you're posting an opinion piece that's commenting on another opinion peace, and trying to make a statement about Israeli domestic policy based on this "opinion of an opinion"? Get real.

    You post an opinion piece that's critical of Israel, but you're conveniently silent when it comes to Hamas' suicide bombers who target not only Israeli military, but civilians - men, women, and children - who are trying to go about their daily lives. Your piece is conveniently silent on the car bombs that used to routinely run into Israeli supermarkets before the wall was put up, killing hundreds of grocery shoppers at a time.

    And what of the blockade? Your piece is also conveniently silent on the fact that every one of Palestines neighbors have also blockaded Palenstine - your regurgitated opinion is devoid of any mention that one country's embargo is useless, that multiple countries have come to the same conclusion; instead, you ignorantly lay the entire mess upon a single country. Your piece also conveniently forgets to mention that Hamas was smuggling in guns, rockets, and bombs inside food and medical containers, that they were using the Palestinians' suffering and hunger as an excuse to re-arm themselves and continue conducting their war operations.

    But no, none of that is mentioned; it's far easier to demagogue and lambast "the right" as some sort of bogeyman, instead of engaging in a civilized political debate about another country's foreign/domestic policy (which, truth to tell, is about as ignorant as a european commenting on how Obama hasn't spent enough money to pull the US out of this recession). God forbid that the author should have an idea of their own, instead being reduced to posting someone elses opinion as if it were fact, and then hiding behind the eloquence of another mans words.
    This was copied EXACTLY as it appeared in Haaretz Daily News which is an Israeli news source. I never added or edited anything, so your arguements cannot be directed towards me. Contact the author and give him your opinions, as these are just his reprinted here for discussion, of which you made the first comment. Where or when did I say that Hamas or Paestinian Militants were the Palestinians which I concern myself with? I have also stated on these forums that I have the same feelings for innocent people in Israel who are killed by these militants. I am not hiding behind anyone else's words either. That is just a pretty low blow. Have you never commented on, or re-said something which you found interesting? I don't care one iota whether you agre with the points in the article actually. Your personal attack on me for posting it just let's me know that you are someone who I don't need to take seriously, who can only lash out at someone who repeats something which you find objectionable.
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    i think a lot of governments fear peace because war is business. big business. and xmacro. i know how it feels to be opposed to lakers posts but he is right. he didnt write it. he just repeated it. i think the point of fear of peace is a valid one. its the same point that people make about drug legalization. if we stop enforcing this injustice or legal issue or whatever then what happens to all the jobs of those people enforcing the ideals. so much infrastructure all gone
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    This was copied EXACTLY as it appeared in Haaretz Daily News which is an Israeli news source. I never added or edited anything, so your arguements cannot be directed towards me.
    My points about the article stand; that said, I apologize for the attack on you. I've spent time debating these political volley's with others, and I get tired of people using the same arguments that blame Israel for every conceivable ill or transgression in the world while giving a complete pass to the atrocities of Hamas. I didn't realize you weren't advancing an argument, but just posting an article, so I apologize for my harsh response
  • clearlysuspectclearlysuspect Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭✭
    dennisking:
    he didnt write it. he just repeated it.


    If I saw some one write the "n" word and then walked about town repeating it, how far do you believe this argument would get me?
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    i see your point, but as one who is somewhat famous for having the opposite opinion as laker, I decided to take a slightly different stance in this post. does it make him guilty. no, not really. as for me, if you don't know my stance I am a pro-Israel Christian (not the best one but...) but i think the fear of losing control and infrastructure and military jobs is a big point of this.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    dennisking:
    i see your point, but as one who is somewhat famous for having the opposite opinion as laker, I decided to take a slightly different stance in this post. does it make him guilty. no, not really. as for me, if you don't know my stance I am a pro-Israel Christian (not the best one but...) but i think the fear of losing control and infrastructure and military jobs is a big point of this.
    I might believe this when the suicide bombings and calls for Israel's destruction stop; it just annoys me to no end when someone blames a war of survival on the people being bombed. Does Israel have clean hands? Of course not! But they're a hell of a lot cleaner than Palestine's hands, or any of Israel's neighbors for that matter. Not saying you agree with that POV, just saying that it just gets under my skin when someone like the author of the article spews this garbage.
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    and personally I feel that Israel has also done more to defend themselves than anyone should have to do to survive. Again, I am pro-Israel but I also can't help but think to myself "what would happen if there were no resistance". no war = no dollars = no jobs = no leg to stand on. i'm playing devil's (literally) advocate here but it's true. what would governments do with surplus employees and no wars to fight. they would fire those employees, that's what. and when the government provides so many jobs, well you can see the repercussions.
  • HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    Sorry. Been away from the computer for a while(read, the wife was on it).

    I don't know how this article could be construed as being anti Israel, considering it was written by an American Israeli, who writes a blog for an Israeli Newpaper, but you are entitled to your opinion.

    You are so far off base with your anti Israeli remark that I won't bother to answer you.

    There is a lot of these types of articles appearing in Israeli news and blogs and most of it is coming from within Israel. I think this is a VERY positive evolution in this whole conflict. If this is not something you are in favor of say so and get on with it. Why attack me? Are you trying to shame me into silence or something? How dramatic of you, but I am only interested in furthering the discussion surrounding PEACE in the occupied territories.

    You know jack $hit about me, but feel free to expose all you want about my beliefs and motivations.

    This is a topic that some find interesting as some of the other posts have been read and responded to in quite high numbers, but you never mentioned those. If you don't find this topic personally interesting or it is objectionable to you then don't read my post' or feel free to respond as you have this one. Only I would hope you could add something more constructive then school yard taunting. Once again I state for those who choose to belive otherwise... I am NOT anti Israeli, I am NOT pro Palestinian. I am disgusted in the treatment of innocent people in the occupied territories, and if you can defend what is going on there while people who know (Israeli's) are rising up and trying to put an end to it, then I can only assume that you have not looked into the situation and are reacting to my comments on an emotional level because in your heart you feel you know what is right and that good People (Israeli's) could never treat any other people in such an unacceptable way.

    Please read as many sources of information as you can. Do not just rely on your usual evening news to tell you all about what is going on in the world. There is so much information out there, have some courage and dig deeper, if it is of any interest to you. If not, then why break my balls about it?
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    Sorry. Been away from the computer for a while(read, the wife was on it).

    I don't know how this article could be construed as being anti Israel, considering it was written by an American Israeli, who writes a blog for an Israeli Newpaper, but you are entitled to your opinion.
    Hey, guess what? We have American KKK members writing into newspapers about their goals and aspirations, I guess we shouldn't see them as anti-American or anathema to America's values because they live in America - I guess we should just believe what they have to say without question, eh? I mean, they live in America, so their articles have gotta be accurate, huh? There's a lot of blogs and posts about what the KKK would like to do, so they must constitute a large majority of Americans, huh? I mean, whoever posts the most articles always has the most followers, isn't that right?

    Bah, I take back the apology; from your stance it's obvious that you only see one side of the conflict; you want peace at any price, and for that you're willing to condemn a free State and post BS articles like this that give a total pass to the atrocities of Hamas, and the Palestinian Gov't, while only blaming the entire affair on Israel, who's only part in starting this war was to simply exist. By referring to the region as "the occupied territories", it's obvious that you've shut your eyes to the atrocities, the murders, the kidnappings, and the rapes that Hamas as perpetrated against Israel, as well as its own citizens. It's obvious that you view the entire affair as one-sided and completely Israel's fault - the only people who refer to that part of the world as "the occupied territories" is the far Left who believe that Israel is guilty of war crimes, who think that Palestine is innocent or bears less blame than Israel, who think Hamas is a freedom-fighting organization, and who believe that peace can be accomplished if you just lay down your arms when you see a suicide bomber running at you. You're not furthering the discussion one iota when garbage like this is posted that only blames Israel; it's obvious that Israel doesn't have clean hands, but then again, Hamas is the one calling for their destruction, and who sends in suicide bombers to cafe's, knowing that civilian casualities make the evening news more than military casualties. I'd recommend going to read more, but I know you won't take that advice; your opinion is set, and the simple fact that you posted the ravings of an anti-semite and accepted it as gospel is evidence enough of your leanings on this matter.

    The rantings of an Israeli anti-semite don't count for much, just as the ravings of an American imam calling for America's destruction don't count for much. Israeli's hold elections to decide what course their country goes on; do you really think they'd continue electing leaders who believe in resisting Hamas' attempts to kill them if they didn't want it? Saying that Israeli's are "rising up" is as asinine as saying the KKK is rising up. Get real.
    24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    Damn, I didn't know this fool had posted this crap before; I won't be replying again. You can't fix stupid

  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    Sorry. Been away from the computer for a while(read, the wife was on it).

    I don't know how this article could be construed as being anti Israel, considering it was written by an American Israeli, who writes a blog for an Israeli Newpaper, but you are entitled to your opinion.
    Hey, guess what? We have American KKK members writing into newspapers about their goals and aspirations, I guess we shouldn't see them as anti-American or anathema to America's values because they live in America - I guess we should just believe what they have to say without question, eh? I mean, they live in America, so their articles have gotta be accurate, huh? There's a lot of blogs and posts about what the KKK would like to do, so they must constitute a large majority of Americans, huh? I mean, whoever posts the most articles always has the most followers, isn't that right?

    Bah, I take back the apology; from your stance it's obvious that you only see one side of the conflict; you want peace at any price, and for that you're willing to condemn a free State and post BS articles like this that give a total pass to the atrocities of Hamas, and the Palestinian Gov't, while only blaming the entire affair on Israel, who's only part in starting this war was to simply exist. By referring to the region as "the occupied territories", it's obvious that you've shut your eyes to the atrocities, the murders, the kidnappings, and the rapes that Hamas as perpetrated against Israel, as well as its own citizens. It's obvious that you view the entire affair as one-sided and completely Israel's fault - the only people who refer to that part of the world as "the occupied territories" is the far Left who believe that Israel is guilty of war crimes, who think that Palestine is innocent or bears less blame than Israel, who think Hamas is a freedom-fighting organization, and who believe that peace can be accomplished if you just lay down your arms when you see a suicide bomber running at you. You're not furthering the discussion one iota when garbage like this is posted that only blames Israel; it's obvious that Israel doesn't have clean hands, but then again, Hamas is the one calling for their destruction, and who sends in suicide bombers to cafe's, knowing that civilian casualities make the evening news more than military casualties. I'd recommend going to read more, but I know you won't take that advice; your opinion is set, and the simple fact that you posted the ravings of an anti-semite and accepted it as gospel is evidence enough of your leanings on this matter.

    The rantings of an Israeli anti-semite don't count for much, just as the ravings of an American imam calling for America's destruction don't count for much. Israeli's hold elections to decide what course their country goes on; do you really think they'd continue electing leaders who believe in resisting Hamas' attempts to kill them if they didn't want it? Saying that Israeli's are "rising up" is as asinine as saying the KKK is rising up. Get real.
    24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    Damn, I didn't know this fool had posted this crap before; I won't be replying again. You can't fix stupid

    To plays devils advocate, I would say that while the KKK is generally a group of uneducated morons, they are what America is about in the idea that they are guarenteed the right to say whatever B.S. they want and assemble as a group. They also have individual rights, despite their belonging to the KKK. This is more than many Palestinians are allowed in Isreal. Also, I am interested to see if you are condemned for the "you cant fix stupid" comment I made about 2 weeks ago and was sevelrry chastised for. You dont have to like the article or his stance, but to automatically draw the conclusion his is an Anti-Semite may be a bit of a stretch.
  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,003 ✭✭
    Laker, I can appreciate that you're trying to generate some appropriate discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But in my opinion, when you repeatedly post news articles or op-ed pieces that only address crimes or injustices perpetuated by Israelis, you're clearly showing a pro-Palestinian bias and don't seem that interested in the crimes/injustices they commit. Furthermore, if I'm remembering correctly, just about every article you post is from Ha'aretz. And you claim the fact that you're posting articles from an Israeli publication is evidence of your middle-of-the-road stance. Well, let's just say that publication makes the NY Times look conservative. There is a media bias in the United States, but it pales in comparison to this pub.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55&x_article=171

    I think we can all agree we're "anti-atrocity." But if you're only posting articles that cast a negative light on Israel, I think a reasonable argument can be made that we know how you feel on the issue...at least own it.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    Sorry. Been away from the computer for a while(read, the wife was on it).

    I don't know how this article could be construed as being anti Israel, considering it was written by an American Israeli, who writes a blog for an Israeli Newpaper, but you are entitled to your opinion.
    Hey, guess what? We have American KKK members writing into newspapers about their goals and aspirations, I guess we shouldn't see them as anti-American or anathema to America's values because they live in America - I guess we should just believe what they have to say without question, eh? I mean, they live in America, so their articles have gotta be accurate, huh? There's a lot of blogs and posts about what the KKK would like to do, so they must constitute a large majority of Americans, huh? I mean, whoever posts the most articles always has the most followers, isn't that right?

    Bah, I take back the apology; from your stance it's obvious that you only see one side of the conflict; you want peace at any price, and for that you're willing to condemn a free State and post BS articles like this that give a total pass to the atrocities of Hamas, and the Palestinian Gov't, while only blaming the entire affair on Israel, who's only part in starting this war was to simply exist. By referring to the region as "the occupied territories", it's obvious that you've shut your eyes to the atrocities, the murders, the kidnappings, and the rapes that Hamas as perpetrated against Israel, as well as its own citizens. It's obvious that you view the entire affair as one-sided and completely Israel's fault - the only people who refer to that part of the world as "the occupied territories" is the far Left who believe that Israel is guilty of war crimes, who think that Palestine is innocent or bears less blame than Israel, who think Hamas is a freedom-fighting organization, and who believe that peace can be accomplished if you just lay down your arms when you see a suicide bomber running at you. You're not furthering the discussion one iota when garbage like this is posted that only blames Israel; it's obvious that Israel doesn't have clean hands, but then again, Hamas is the one calling for their destruction, and who sends in suicide bombers to cafe's, knowing that civilian casualities make the evening news more than military casualties. I'd recommend going to read more, but I know you won't take that advice; your opinion is set, and the simple fact that you posted the ravings of an anti-semite and accepted it as gospel is evidence enough of your leanings on this matter.

    The rantings of an Israeli anti-semite don't count for much, just as the ravings of an American imam calling for America's destruction don't count for much. Israeli's hold elections to decide what course their country goes on; do you really think they'd continue electing leaders who believe in resisting Hamas' attempts to kill them if they didn't want it? Saying that Israeli's are "rising up" is as asinine as saying the KKK is rising up. Get real.
    24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    Damn, I didn't know this fool had posted this crap before; I won't be replying again. You can't fix stupid

    To plays devils advocate, I would say that while the KKK is generally a group of uneducated morons, they are what America is about in the idea that they are guarenteed the right to say whatever B.S. they want and assemble as a group. They also have individual rights, despite their belonging to the KKK. This is more than many Palestinians are allowed in Isreal. Also, I am interested to see if you are condemned for the "you cant fix stupid" comment I made about 2 weeks ago and was sevelrry chastised for. You dont have to like the article or his stance, but to automatically draw the conclusion his is an Anti-Semite may be a bit of a stretch.
    Now wait a minute, the KKK is a group of people, not a person, so according to your stance, and Phobics, they don't have the right to free speech just like a corporation...
  • docedwardsdocedwards Posts: 319
    All this is very interesting but a little heavy for me. Think I'll lighten things up and go light up. All you guys have a nice day.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    Sorry. Been away from the computer for a while(read, the wife was on it).

    I don't know how this article could be construed as being anti Israel, considering it was written by an American Israeli, who writes a blog for an Israeli Newpaper, but you are entitled to your opinion.
    Hey, guess what? We have American KKK members writing into newspapers about their goals and aspirations, I guess we shouldn't see them as anti-American or anathema to America's values because they live in America - I guess we should just believe what they have to say without question, eh? I mean, they live in America, so their articles have gotta be accurate, huh? There's a lot of blogs and posts about what the KKK would like to do, so they must constitute a large majority of Americans, huh? I mean, whoever posts the most articles always has the most followers, isn't that right?

    Is that what I said? LMAO I never said he was a one time nutjob contributor to a newspaper. He is a columnist who also happens to write for an Israeli newspaper.

    Bah, I take back the apology; from your stance it's obvious that you only see one side of the conflict; you want peace at any price, and for that you're willing to condemn a free State and post BS articles like this that give a total pass to the atrocities of Hamas, and the Palestinian Gov't, while only blaming the entire affair on Israel, who's only part in starting this war was to simply exist. By referring to the region as "the occupied territories", it's obvious that you've shut your eyes to the atrocities, the murders, the kidnappings, and the rapes that Hamas as perpetrated against Israel, as well as its own citizens. It's obvious that you view the entire affair as one-sided and completely Israel's fault - the only people who refer to that part of the world as "the occupied territories" is the far Left who believe that Israel is guilty of war crimes, who think that Palestine is innocent or bears less blame than Israel, who think Hamas is a freedom-fighting organization, and who believe that peace can be accomplished if you just lay down your arms when you see a suicide bomber running at you. You're not furthering the discussion one iota when garbage like this is posted that only blames Israel; it's obvious that Israel doesn't have clean hands, but then again, Hamas is the one calling for their destruction, and who sends in suicide bombers to cafe's, knowing that civilian casualities make the evening news more than military casualties. I'd recommend going to read more, but I know you won't take that advice; your opinion is set, and the simple fact that you posted the ravings of an anti-semite and accepted it as gospel is evidence enough of your leanings on this matter.

    And after reading this slop, I can see why you take back any apology... you are a closed minded person, who THINKS they KNOW what is going on in the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, so you come here to rant at me. Take a pill, read a newspaper and get a grip!

    The rantings of an Israeli anti-semite don't count for much, just as the ravings of an American imam calling for America's destruction don't count for much. Israeli's hold elections to decide what course their country goes on; do you really think they'd continue electing leaders who believe in resisting Hamas' attempts to kill them if they didn't want it? Saying that Israeli's are "rising up" is as asinine as saying the KKK is rising up. Get real.

    So now I am anti semetic too ! LMAO While you are reading (or having read to you in your case) some news from the occupied territories why don't you also do a little looking into the Israeli political process you speak of. You will find that it is quickly becoming one of the biggest obstructions to peace of any kind with any one. Israel has such a fractured political system with dozens of parties which share the support of the populace. The problem is that these parties all have to cater to thier own constituencies, which leads to a situation where all parties are making deals with other parties to try and get power or hold power or sway power. That is the reason you have such hard line decisions being made on the ground. Politicians are no better or different over there. They would do almost anything to stay in or get control of power. This fractured system leads to breakdowns in the politics of Israel and has for decades.


    24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    Damn, I didn't know this fool had posted this crap before; I won't be replying again. You can't fix stupid



    I have had several conversations with Kuzi regarding these matters. He is of the Jewish religion, and while we do not agree on a lot of things regarding the occupied territories, I can say that he has never slipped so low as to call me names or label me as anti semetic. Being referred to as a fool by someone like yourself is like a badge of honor. Careful there son... your intelligence is showing ;)
  • docedwardsdocedwards Posts: 319
    Okay, to everyone's delight this will be my second and last post on this thread. If you really want to debate the subject why don't you pick up the phone and talk to each other? I'll finish my smoke now. Have a great day.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Luko:
    Laker, I can appreciate that you're trying to generate some appropriate discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But in my opinion, when you repeatedly post news articles or op-ed pieces that only address crimes or injustices perpetuated by Israelis, you're clearly showing a pro-Palestinian bias and don't seem that interested in the crimes/injustices they commit. Furthermore, if I'm remembering correctly, just about every article you post is from Ha'aretz. And you claim the fact that you're posting articles from an Israeli publication is evidence of your middle-of-the-road stance. Well, let's just say that publication makes the NY Times look conservative. There is a media bias in the United States, but it pales in comparison to this pub.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55&x_article=171

    I think we can all agree we're "anti-atrocity." But if you're only posting articles that cast a negative light on Israel, I think a reasonable argument can be made that we know how you feel on the issue...at least own it.
    Well then you should have looked further Luko. I have posted about some of the things the Palestinians have done. For the most part tho, they never generated much discussion. I guess it was sort of like "preaching to the chior". I have and will state again I am NOT pro Palestinian... I am pro PEOPLE. right now the people who are being treated in an unacceptable way are the Palestinians and they are being treated that way by the Israeli's. I don't make this $hit up, or decide who is doing what, I am only commenting on what I read. I take the side of the Palestinians (when they are not Palestinian militants) because they are the ones being treated in such a way in their own land. Should I maybe get on here and cheer for the israeli's once in a while for "balance" or something?

    I have stated too many times now that I am NOT on a "side" but with your closing comments you again try to align me with one side or the other. All I can continue to say is YOU ARE WRONG. Also I have written post (this most recent one actually) which I thought were of a pro Israeli stance. I thought (and still do) that the article was a positive step towards Israeli's self examination, which is a process which will have to be done if peace is to ever take hold in the Middle East. The guy's on here who read it with a predetermined notion that I am an Israeli hater, automatically pick up on MY critisizm of Israel and the Jewish faith. Then I become anti semetic in the eyes of people who obviously did not even understand my intentions when I posted the article, let alone read the whole post or earlier posts where I continually declare my status as a non Jewish person hater.

    If all you want to do is write some snappy shot at me personally and call me anti semetic,... fill your boots boy's. You say more about yourself then you do me.
  • Haha. Seems you are addicted to conflict. Hopefully from this point on people will understand you come on here to cause problems, not further "dialogue". You sure spend alot of time critiquing peoples replies...you must be a teacher. Just a few thought from a "small minded" American....I think that's what you guys call us.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    24footjet:
    Haha. Seems you are addicted to conflict. Hopefully from this point on people will understand you come on here to cause problems, not further "dialogue". You sure spend alot of time critiquing peoples replies...you must be a teacher. Just a few thought from a "small minded" American....I think that's what you guys call us.
    Spend some time, do some reading and then come and pass your all important judgement of me and my time here. Which by the way eclispes your own by just a little.

    As for your comments regarding small minded Americans? What "guy's" are you grouping me in with now?
    Now you make my arguements for me and then argue against them? LMAO You're funny.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Im sorry Puro, but that isnt the topic at hand here and even if it were Im a not not going to engage you in a pointless debate on freedom of speech for the KKK v.s. the freedom to finance and decide an election by corporations.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    As far as the article, I think Laker is right on point when mentioning the fractured and segmented political system in Isreal. While I am not suggesting any ideas on how to improve it, I can say that (as with most countires) one of the biggest issues is with a leader's need to secure and keep power overshadowing the opinions of the people he/she represent. Its easier to cater to a loud minority than it is a more rational and thought out majority.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Vulchor:
    As far as the article, I think Laker is right on point when mentioning the fractured and segmented political system in Isreal. While I am not suggesting any ideas on how to improve it, I can say that (as with most countires) one of the biggest issues is with a leader's need to secure and keep power overshadowing the opinions of the people he/she represent. Its easier to cater to a loud minority than it is a more rational and thought out majority.
    I still smile when I think about this post and the stir it caused.

    I guess I should have prefaced it with my opinion that I was thinking this was a positive thing, and not meant as an attack against Israel.

    I was almost immediately attacked for copying this opinion.

    I was trying to point out that even in Israel people are getting tired of the status quo, and are looking to a real and lasting solution, and that pointing out the failures of past methods is in fact an attempt to find new, more productive ways of dealing with the situation.

    With thier fractured political system, and so many special interest political parties, it is going to be VERY difficult to come to some sort of arrangement with the Palestinians, while also keeping the folks within Israel proper happy as well. However this is the only thing which will lead to a more normal life for the Palestinians as well as Israeli's.
  • 24footjet:
    HEY!.... Congratulations Laker, you finally got somebody to bite on one of your anti-isreal posts after the last 4 or 5 went by without a reply. At one time you had 3 of the top ten unaswered threads...once again congrats!
    nice fish man!
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Exactly right Laker. And not to draw on the other post about Cuba, but I think its an illustration of how many people are ready to try and move on from older problems and forge a new relationship with people...but the old mindsets (which are most often had by those who vote) keeps it from happening.
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