Gender Wage Gap

sightunseen

The girlfriend and I are debating about it. Your thoughts on whether it currently exists or not? Any recent unbiased studies supporting either opinion?

xmacro

Depends how you measure it - two people in the same job don't always make the same wage; the guy down the hall from you may do the exact same thing as you but he may earn more or less than you - and no one ever bats an eyelash about this. But if the person down the hall is a woman, they become a statistic.

Also gotta be careful how you measure - different companies pay their people differently, and different jobs pay differently. A taxi driver isn't gonna make the same wage as a bus driver, even though they may work comparable hours and do almost the same thing - do you count the wage disparities, or do you disregard the comparison? Some would say disregard it, but some studies would use this for a comparison and include it in their study as an example of wage disparity

Saying "equal pay for equal work" is all fine, but then when you start measuring it, it gets downright difficult. A man and a woman may do the same job but earn different wages - is it due to discrimination, or are there other factors? Maybe the guy has been there longer, maybe the woman isn't very well liked. Maybe the guy is the boss' golfing partner, maybe the woman hasn't managed to do any networking, etc. These are the kinds of things that no one takes into account when they put their wage-disparity studies together - why? Because it's almost impossible to discover this information - all they have when they put these studies together is numbers, not the decisions that led to the numbers.

I'm always rather skeptical of these studies - unless they can find pure discrimination as the result, I'm inclined to think there's more factors/variables that the study couldn't discover. If a person does the same job, they should be paid the same, but these studies just leave too much unsaid for me to fully trust. I'm not bashing the studies or propping them up - I'm just pointing out that there are limits to the study, and there are factors that can't be taken in account that can have a huge effect on the outcome

lilwing88

Next time your girlfriend wants to debate any slight inequalities among men and women just say this: "You women these days just don't know how good you really have it!" Then hand this little article to her........



I suggest dropping it in front of her and running like hell!!!

pnaylon

Bhahahahaha!!! ^

My girlfriend and I are both in engineering school, and chances are we will make the same amount when we get out but she basically wont have to do anything. Companies hire women engineers to say that they have women engineers on staff :-P

lilwing88

Or tell her to google: "women belong on the internet"....... seriously, try it. It's pretty funny.

perkinke

Like xmarco said you have to be careful in the comparisons. The "over the lifespan" comparisons are of little value, there are too many factors to consider to put it down to sexism. In the public agencies i work with supervisors and administrators have little discretion in compensation, it's dictated by schedule so the actual gaps, when comparisons are made within the same jobs and classifications, are miniscule to non-existent.

My boss, a woman, has a theory that often women are paid less because they typically do not negotiate or ask for raises or promotions as often as men do. It's an interesting thought.

If the argument is made that women are not entering the higher paying fields, well, that is an entirely different issue. There are a number of initiatives and groups pushing for more women in the STEM fields, I'm not sure of the success.

Gray4lines

Exactly, you have to look at what youre measuring... the previous article appears to be average earnings for college grads. However, we know that statistically women, especially at that young age, do not participate in the labor force (try and look for a job, or have a job) at the rate that men do. If that study isnt at least comparing full year, full time occupations, it is only telling us that women makes less on average because they work a little less.... we already knew this. And would 15,000 be enough sample to really compare full year full time, same industry, same job title of men vs women??? I seriously doubt it. And that completely ignores career tracks, and "moving up the ladder". Those years right after college are when wages increase the most, so a point in time study right at the beginning is not that useful, theres no time for any of the returns to education to shake out.

raisindot

Gray4lines:

Exactly, you have to look at what youre measuring... the previous article appears to be average earnings for college grads. However, we know that statistically women, especially at that young age, do not participate in the labor force (try and look for a job, or have a job) at the rate that men do.

That really isn't true anymore. I believe that recent studies have shown that women now actually make up a larger percentage of the workforce than men these days, mainly because the job hemorrhage of the past few years has dis-proportionally affected men, many more of whom older works in certain industries (manufacturing, construction) have not recovered. There are more women in the workforce and women are now the primary breadwinners in more families than in any time in the nation's history. This is more due to economic realities (the need for dual income, or a wife works at a low paying job that provides benefits while her husband looks for work or takes on temp or odd jobs) than actual career aspirations.

However, even though I don't have the study to prove it, I still believe that women are paid less than men for the same job and level of experience, at least in corporate white collar jobs with loosely-defined pay grades.

The_Kid

sightunseen:

The girlfriend and I are debating about it. Your thoughts on whether it currently exists or not? Any recent unbiased studies supporting either opinion?

Yes, most definately exists. In 2009, I took some college courses & elected to take a course in Woman Studies,,( Sun Tzu ;o) We covered material all the way back to the suffrage movement and further, 19th amendment and so on. We even discussed nature vs nurture or more specifically social constructionism vs biological determinism............. Theres no doubt about the fact that we (the United States) are a patriarchal society. Even though women have made great strides and have broken down many barriers, there are still social stereotypes towards women, and misogyny, oppression and discrimination still exists. Just look at how many CEO's that are women vs men.

xmacro

Guys - take a closer look at the original date. This thread is over 3 years old, and it was necroed by what appears to be a spam bot

carolgreen:

The economy is increasing slowly, and hiring is picking up. Yet, the pay gap between men and women is still very much at play, says a new study. That difference is in evidence immediately after college, and follows women throughout their expert lives.

Reported as a spam bot

webmost

The Kid:

... there are still social stereotypes towards women, and misogyny, oppression and discrimination still exists. Just look at how many CEO's that are women vs men.

If you "just" look at that, you miss too many causative factors. Might as well say that because there are dramatically fewer stay at home full time fathers that oppression and discrimination and social stereotypes and misandry are the culprits. Achievement in a different direction does not imply oppression. Many perfectly capable women make the conscious choice to ensure their children grow up in a loving and personal environment. Any pause in one's career to attend to family obligations naturally detracts from pay. So what? There's more to life than money. We don't all have to march in lockstep.

As Steve Martin said in Parenthood: "Women have options; men have responsibilities."

Gray4lines

raisindot:

Gray4lines:

Exactly, you have to look at what youre measuring... the previous article appears to be average earnings for college grads. However, we know that statistically women, especially at that young age, do not participate in the labor force (try and look for a job, or have a job) at the rate that men do.

That really isn't true anymore. I believe that recent studies have shown that women now actually make up a larger percentage of the workforce than men these days, mainly because the job hemorrhage of the past few years has dis-proportionally affected men, many more of whom older works in certain industries (manufacturing, construction) have not recovered. There are more women in the workforce and women are now the primary breadwinners in more families than in any time in the nation's history. This is more due to economic realities (the need for dual income, or a wife works at a low paying job that provides benefits while her husband looks for work or takes on temp or odd jobs) than actual career aspirations.

However, even though I don't have the study to prove it, I still believe that women are paid less than men for the same job and level of experience, at least in corporate white collar jobs with loosely-defined pay grades.

No, it's still true. Gap has grown smaller, but remained constant for a few years. Jan 2010 men 16 and over P= 71% women P= 58%

perkinke

xmacro:

Guys - take a closer look at the original date. This thread is over 3 years old, and it was necroed by what appears to be a spam bot

carolgreen:

The economy is increasing slowly, and hiring is picking up. Yet, the pay gap between men and women is still very much at play, says a new study. That difference is in evidence immediately after college, and follows women throughout their expert lives.

Reported as a spam bot

Doh, my bad, I didn't look at the date. It was an interesting topic I've been thinking a lot about since I'm looking to move into upper management in the very near future.

Gray4lines

perkinke:

xmacro:

Guys - take a closer look at the original date. This thread is over 3 years old, and it was necroed by what appears to be a spam bot

carolgreen:

The economy is increasing slowly, and hiring is picking up. Yet, the pay gap between men and women is still very much at play, says a new study. That difference is in evidence immediately after college, and follows women throughout their expert lives.

Reported as a spam bot

Doh, my bad, I didn't look at the date. It was an interesting topic I've been thinking a lot about since I'm looking to move into upper management in the very near future.

I did notice, but still a relevant issue today! Perkinke, I think I read you are finishing up your masters? What degree, and what kinda management jobs you looking at?

perkinke

Assuming my thesis gets approved it'll be a master's in public admin. Right now I'm looking at deputy/assistant city or county manager positions. There are some things left to learn before I'm ready to take the helm entirely so I want to find a good organization to learn at.

Gray4lines

perkinke:

Assuming my thesis gets approved it'll be a master's in public admin. Right now I'm looking at deputy/assistant city or county manager positions. There are some things left to learn before I'm ready to take the helm entirely so I want to find a good organization to learn at.

Oh, that's really cool best of luck!

perkinke

Thanks! Looking for warmer and sunnier climes, but seems like the bulk of openings are in the north plains or Great Lakes areas, go figure!

beatnic

My wife makes the same as I do. She stays home, raises the kids, cooks the dinner, cleans the house, and gets all of my money. Seriously. Put a woman on a logging or drilling crew and ask her is she deserves the same pay as a man.

webmost

Oh you misogynistic oppressor you.

The_Kid

beatnic:

My wife makes the same as I do. She stays home, raises the kids, cooks the dinner, cleans the house, and gets all of my money. .

She deserves a raise!!!! ;o)

beatnic

The Kid:

beatnic:

My wife makes the same as I do. She stays home, raises the kids, cooks the dinner, cleans the house, and gets all of my money. .

She deserves a raise!!!! ;o)

You are correct!

webmost

beatnic:

The Kid:

beatnic:

My wife makes the same as I do. She stays home, raises the kids, cooks the dinner, cleans the house, and gets all of my money. .

She deserves a raise!!!! ;o)

You are correct!

You see, and this is the important factor falling completely outside statistics which these grudge hunters use to confabulate the argument that women are oppressed.

Steve021

A brand new report says that, regardless of the growing workforce, double standards remain when it comes to when women are paid vs. their male counterparts. In addition, the report says, the gender wage gap is evident almost instantly after graduation from university, and follows professional women throughout their entire careers. Pay for your expenses till you can get a pay raise with a personal finance.

Amos_Umwhat

This again? Funny, there was a piece on the news yesterday, said the "wage gap" was NO WHERE NEAR what the urban legends would have us believe, in fact nearly non-existant. Hmm...

webmost

I wonder where it shakes out once you factor in child support and restaurant bills?

Gray4lines

webmost:

I wonder where it shakes out once you factor in child support and restaurant bills?

LOL! Those are significant expenses