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Anyone in Arizona?

phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
in Non Cigar Related
Due to the recent events going on in Arizona I'm wondering if anyone here lives there and if they think it will work? Or if you think it's a dumb law.

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    jlmartajlmarta Posts: 7,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I live in California but I just wanted to say that I think they're doing something very right in Arizona and I wish to hell other states would follow suit. Any state bordering on Mexico should think long and hard about following suit. I'd hate to live anywhere near that border as things are now.

    We've been hearing about Sheriff Arpaio and the great things he's been doing for quite a while now. It's time the rest of the state followed his lead.

    Marty

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    zoom6zoomzoom6zoom Posts: 1,214 ✭
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
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    cabinetmakercabinetmaker Posts: 2,560 ✭✭
    zoom6zoom:
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
    Lol... +1
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    fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    cabinetmaker:
    zoom6zoom:
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
    Lol... +1
    +2
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    phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    fla-gypsy:
    cabinetmaker:
    zoom6zoom:
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
    Lol... +1
    +2
    Yeah pretty much. I would like to throw this out though... Wouldn't you think if the police or the state held the companies who hire accountable and fined the hell out of them wouldn't you think that maybe people would stop coming here? Supposedly over a million illegals have left this country due to the collapse of the economy. I really think the people who hire them should be dealt with. I don't think people in general should be targeted especially the way the law was set up. I don't even have my original birth certificate.
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    stephen_hannibalstephen_hannibal Posts: 4,317 ✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    fla-gypsy:
    cabinetmaker:
    zoom6zoom:
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
    Lol... +1
    +2
    Yeah pretty much. I would like to throw this out though... Wouldn't you think if the police or the state held the companies who hire accountable and fined the hell out of them wouldn't you think that maybe people would stop coming here? Supposedly over a million illegals have left this country due to the collapse of the economy. I really think the people who hire them should be dealt with. I don't think people in general should be targeted especially the way the law was set up. I don't even have my original birth certificate.
    The danger in doing that, Pheebs, is that companys will then downsize american jobs to cover the cost of the fines.
    If it's one thing you know it's that corps will never take a loss the will pass the cost of anything and everything on to the general pop.

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    phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    stephen_hannibal:
    phobicsquirrel:
    fla-gypsy:
    cabinetmaker:
    zoom6zoom:
    The "new law" is basically what the Federal Law already is. You know, the one that the Federal government isn't enforcing.
    Lol... +1
    +2
    Yeah pretty much. I would like to throw this out though... Wouldn't you think if the police or the state held the companies who hire accountable and fined the hell out of them wouldn't you think that maybe people would stop coming here? Supposedly over a million illegals have left this country due to the collapse of the economy. I really think the people who hire them should be dealt with. I don't think people in general should be targeted especially the way the law was set up. I don't even have my original birth certificate.
    The danger in doing that, Pheebs, is that companys will then downsize american jobs to cover the cost of the fines.
    If it's one thing you know it's that corps will never take a loss the will pass the cost of anything and everything on to the general pop.

    right well we already have a problem with that. but there needs to be a message sent and I feel places that aren't going to be "american" should probably not be here, others will come. Besides the idea is to hire American's and to pay people enough to have a decent living. Isn't that something this country needs? If corps are hit hard in fines for not hiring US workers there isn't much else they could do, they'd have to hire here. Although there needs to be something in place to keep jobs here too. I dunno, going after people that want work I feel isn't the way to do it. Our country seems to be doing that more and more. Go after people, go after the cause instead of fixing the problem.
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    jlzimmermanjlzimmerman Posts: 282
    Anyone who's against Arizona's law (or the U.S. law) should read other nations' immigration laws, especially Mexico's. Our laws are sugary sweet compared to everyone else.
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    VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    In contrast to my Obama and Tea Bagger posts----I totally with the right wing and conservatism on this one. I see how it could be a violation or rights, or appearing to be profiling----but the trouble with profiling often seems to be (at least to me) is that it works so well most of the time, and people hate that this is true. So I say tighten up that border, send em out, or whatever Arizona wants. Let Texas, Cali, and Florida follow suit---you have my vote.
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    phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    I know profiling is said to be so bad but yes I do think it works at times. The thing that I have a problem with is that making people carry sensitive information is not very good. SS card, birth certificate (the real actual one), and immigration papers is dangerous, imagine if they get mugged or the things are stolen? Identity theft is already bad, with those things they would be even worse. Besides just because someone looks brown shouldn't be grounds for them to be arrested or harassed. The African Americans dealt with that for a long time and now it isn't nearly as bad but yes profiling is a lot to blame. I heard a story a day before the law passed or maybe the day of, that a truck driver got pulled over, showed a CDL license for the state and all other proper information was then taken into custody then held till his wife came to bring his Birth Certificate and SS card, and I think it was out of state too. I think that's way excessive, but if they guy was white then I'm sure a DL would be just fine. I dunno, things like this can spiral way out of control. I still think that enforcing the employment practices would fix a lot of this but not all. Anyone ever try to get citizenship here? It's Frakin hard and very expensive. Though Canada is like that too, well now that I think of it a lot of places are.
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    Matt MarvelMatt Marvel Posts: 930 ✭
    I saw something to this effect the other day, and I felt like sharing it.

    http://saucyusa.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-happens-when-you-enter-country.html
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    zoom6zoomzoom6zoom Posts: 1,214 ✭
    The county I live in has been doing this for over two years. No one gets just asked for papers, but if you interact with the system as a perp, you get your status checked. Over 2000 have been turned over to ICE. Our violent crime rate is down 37%.

    We used to call profiling "identifying the suspects". Now in this PC world you can't even directly ask a witness what race an assailant was. My buddy pulled over three drunk as hell "hispanic gentlemen" in a pickup truck; one of them used that "you're only stopping us because we're spanish" bit. My bud gave him the dumbass look and pointed at his name badge.... Lopez.
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    Matt MarvelMatt Marvel Posts: 930 ✭
    zoom6zoom:
    The county I live in has been doing this for over two years. No one gets just asked for papers, but if you interact with the system as a perp, you get your status checked. Over 2000 have been turned over to ICE. Our violent crime rate is down 37%.

    We used to call profiling "identifying the suspects". Now in this PC world you can't even directly ask a witness what race an assailant was. My buddy pulled over three drunk as hell "hispanic gentlemen" in a pickup truck; one of them used that "you're only stopping us because we're spanish" bit. My bud gave him the dumbass look and pointed at his name badge.... Lopez.
    This reminded me of a story. I was working the returns desk one day, and we require a state issued I.D. card to do returns without a receipt. I asked a gentleman for his I.D., and all he had was a Mexican I.D. He was illegal. He started to get upset, and said "So, my I.D. isn't good enough because it's Mexican?" "Pretty much" I said, lol. He eventually got his brother who was legal to come in and do the return.
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    cabinetmakercabinetmaker Posts: 2,560 ✭✭
    The problem in Arizona is not illegals coming here to take American jobs, it's them coming here to sell drugs, kidnap and murder people. Fining companies does nothing to solve that at all. If we really want go a long way toward curbing illegals from taking American jobs from American citizens, eliminating unions would go much futher to solving that than dining companies; although fining companies in conjunction with getting rid of greedy unions would be the best solution - but tightening the borders first is a must.
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    PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    I know profiling is said to be so bad but yes I do think it works at times. The thing that I have a problem with is that making people carry sensitive information is not very good. SS card, birth certificate (the real actual one), and immigration papers is dangerous, imagine if they get mugged or the things are stolen? Identity theft is already bad, with those things they would be even worse. Besides just because someone looks brown shouldn't be grounds for them to be arrested or harassed. The African Americans dealt with that for a long time and now it isn't nearly as bad but yes profiling is a lot to blame. I heard a story a day before the law passed or maybe the day of, that a truck driver got pulled over, showed a CDL license for the state and all other proper information was then taken into custody then held till his wife came to bring his Birth Certificate and SS card, and I think it was out of state too. I think that's way excessive, but if they guy was white then I'm sure a DL would be just fine. I dunno, things like this can spiral way out of control. I still think that enforcing the employment practices would fix a lot of this but not all. Anyone ever try to get citizenship here? It's Frakin hard and very expensive. Though Canada is like that too, well now that I think of it a lot of places are.
    Your post leads me to believe you haven't actually read the bill. And yes, I have read the whole thing and the revisions for research for my website. It's only 19 pages long and doesn't take long. Federal law already requires immigrants to carry their papers at all times. The new law only requires a form of I'd from legal citizens. It can be a DL, state ID or anything like that. If you are a legal citizen, you do not have to carry your birth certificate or S.S. Card. These things have been spread by the media and are 100% false. The law also prohibits officers from stopping someone based on race. They must have further reasonable suspicion. The other part of the law is that everyone, no matter what race you are, must be checked for citizenship status before being released from jail for crimes already commited. This bill is not about race what-so-ever. The media has been so unbelievably dishonest about this whole thing.

    But to your statement about fining companies, I think that kind of legislation should ALSO be implemented. You could even do it where a company couldn't pass the costs along to consumers. Say you make candles, and you hire 10 illegal immigrants to make your candles. Now say you sell the candles for $6 a piece. Now if the federal government would fine the company $10,000 per illegal employee, how would they be able to pass on $100,000 to their customers without pricing themselves out of the market. Then tack on 6 months in jail for the owner of the comany, for each offense. How many illegals do you think would be getting work? Targeting the immigrants for breaking the law, and targeting the businesses for encouraging this illegal behavior would crush the immigration problems in our nation. I know the bleeding heart liberals don't think we shouldn't be targeting these poor people, but illegal immigrants ARE CRIMINALS.
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    VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with Puro that they are criminals and should be treated as such. However, I dont belilieve the idea of "reasonable suspicion" would be anything more than a witchhunt for illegals for many LE officers however. Reasonable to one and reasonable to another are two vastly different things, polics misuse of power is a whole other topic itself...and I do support the bill

    Squirrel, You are 100% correct beiing concerned about this being a starting point for other profiling and a way for the govt. to have more "big brother" control over us....however, and maybe as Kuzi intimated before I am too concerned with race, being a white male and here legally this one doesnt really bother me. Nor should it bother many people who like to see the rule of law enforced, IMHO.
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    PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I agree with Puro that they are criminals and should be treated as such. However, I dont belilieve the idea of "reasonable suspicion" would be anything more than a witchhunt for illegals for many LE officers however. Reasonable to one and reasonable to another are two vastly different things, polics misuse of power is a whole other topic itself...and I do support the bill

    Squirrel, You are 100% correct beiing concerned about this being a starting point for other profiling and a way for the govt. to have more "big brother" control over us....however, and maybe as Kuzi intimated before I am too concerned with race, being a white male and here legally this one doesnt really bother me. Nor should it bother many people who like to see the rule of law enforced, IMHO.
    I keep hearing the same tired old argument that this could law leaves room for police to abuse their power... WELL WHAT LAW DOESN'T? That's why we have courts and civil and criminal suits against officers who break the law. Reasonable to an officer, usually isn't reasonable to a judge however. And that is where it will have to be proved.
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    VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I understand there are supposed checks in place for police power...but Im sorry, that does not stop undue violence or abuse of power a lot of the time. I am not trying to bash police, and know you're an officer and appreciate and respect what you do----but for those who do not wear the badge with the same honor and dignity...I fear for citizens.
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    PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I understand there are supposed checks in place for police power...but Im sorry, that does not stop undue violence or abuse of power a lot of the time. I am not trying to bash police, and know you're an officer and appreciate and respect what you do----but for those who do not wear the badge with the same honor and dignity...I fear for citizens.
    So we should scrap an entire law which has the potential to be VERY effective, just because of the chance there could be a few cases of abuse? In that case we should just scrap every law in the entire country and our police force as a whole. Because having laws and police could possibly lead to some cases of abuse... That's where I have an issue with people screaming that this law is targeting innocent people. There are safeguards written into the law and even more in the amendments to the law. Just because the media doesn't report these things doesn't make them true.
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    VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I already stated I am for the law....but just as you believe govt. is in our lives too much now and is not acting legally or in the best interest of many citizens------I believe the same of many LE officers and only make the point that it could be a slipperly slope---not that it will be, or that I dont agree with the law...just simply to keep in mind as future legistation is proposed.
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