Man you make so many accusations when you seem to know Sh it about me.
Do some reading and you should be able to find at least a dozen mentions in my posts about POLITICIANS not REPUBLICAN politicians. I think the system sucks. The politicians of today can't hold a candle to the politicians of a few decades ago even. If you would like to keep making your baseless accusations against me... fill your boots. It's rather humourous
Just for my own clarification Gypsy----after a year plus in office, you feel that is long enough and the administration had enough power to "do everything they want and have a comgress complicit in everything they have done. All they have to do is fix it".
You are not truly making that argument and that all the problems and issues inherited should be fixed by now, or are no longer anyones fault but this admistration are you? What is being attacked here is greed by large corporations set on profit as opposed to any semblance of the common good, nothing further. You BTW brought up Bush, which must show (using the same logic you seemed to) that somewhere you must agree he is to blame here (and youre being passive agressive) and should have done more for everyone when he had an entire country behind him...like after 9/11. And please just because I maentioned that date, I dont need a ton of posts how he kept us all safe....as though Al Gore wouldve gave away NY Harbor to Al Quaeda out of fear.
everyone seems to think im arguing from the point of view of profit. this is not the case. i am arguing from the point of view of individual rights.
if BP drilled a million wells, NONE of them with relief wells, and not a single one caused a problem, did BP violate any rights? IF they drill the same wells all of them WITH relief wells, did they violate any rights? the answer to both is "NO." if BP drills one well without a relief well and it takes away the lively hood of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people because it burned and fell over causing an oil spill like the world has never seen, have they violated rights? yes.
the violation of rights is not in if they have a relief well. it is if they caused a disaster. not having the relief well didnt cause the disaster. it could have helped keep this from being this bad, but the disaster was caused by an explosion and the sinking of an oil platform. this may or may not have been an accident.
there is no regulation currently that a relief well needs to be drilled. i still dont want there to be. what should happen next (if BP is the actual culprit) is the courts should step in. this is the proper action of the government. people that are effected should sue them for as much as they can get away with. the government should sue BP for destroying protected land. BP should be left either a shadow of their former selves if they are able to exist at all after all is said and done. this will show the rest of the oil companies in the US what will happen to you if you violate the rights through negligence of this degree. there is still no rule that you have to drill relief wells, but i bet a few more will be drilled in the future just to ensure the longevity of the company.
Just for my own clarification Gypsy----after a year plus in office, you feel that is long enough and the administration had enough power to "do everything they want and have a comgress complicit in everything they have done. All they have to do is fix it".
You are not truly making that argument and that all the problems and issues inherited should be fixed by now, or are no longer anyones fault but this admistration are you? What is being attacked here is greed by large corporations set on profit as opposed to any semblance of the common good, nothing further. You BTW brought up Bush, which must show (using the same logic you seemed to) that somewhere you must agree he is to blame here (and youre being passive agressive) and should have done more for everyone when he had an entire country behind him...like after 9/11. And please just because I maentioned that date, I dont need a ton of posts how he kept us all safe....as though Al Gore wouldve gave away NY Harbor to Al Quaeda out of fear.
I will sum it up for you like this, Bush was not perfect and did what he thought was right. Obama is not perfect and is doing what he thinks is right (although I find his ideas repugnant). Everything rises and falls on leadership and we are continuing to fall right now. Make your own assumptions. Aside from that, BP was violating no laws I am aware of, quite the contrary, they were drilling in such deep water as a result of "environmental concerns" when the well blew up and is now exhausting every thing they have to try and stop it while our govt "was on top of it from day one" sits back and does nothing. The persons responsible for regulating this industry (govt regulators) were giving this rig awards last year and now they are the embodiment of all Evil and Greed according to some on this forum. BTW, please define "Greed" for us, it is not as easy as it seems sometimes.
please define "Greed" for us, it is not as easy as it seems sometimes.
there is way more to the situation than "greed"
"greed" and "money" are just over simplifications used to vilify corporations. they are simple answers offered up to drum up hate against a corporation involved in a very complex situation. people want answers now. "greed" and "money" are quick and easy. there is way more to it than that i assure you.
Man you make so many accusations when you seem to know Sh it about me.
Do some reading and you should be able to find at least a dozen mentions in my posts about POLITICIANS not REPUBLICAN politicians. I think the system sucks. The politicians of today can't hold a candle to the politicians of a few decades ago even. If you would like to keep making your baseless accusations against me... fill your boots. It's rather humourous
Pols have always been the same laker, they just didn't get ratted out like they do now. I know you strictly by what you write and you write plenty. I currently hate our entire system because I feel it has been hijacked by pols. I am hoping for a retaking of the govt in the coming elections as it is our only hope right now to ever returning to some semblance of normal.
Man you make so many accusations when you seem to know Sh it about me.
Do some reading and you should be able to find at least a dozen mentions in my posts about POLITICIANS not REPUBLICAN politicians. I think the system sucks. The politicians of today can't hold a candle to the politicians of a few decades ago even. If you would like to keep making your baseless accusations against me... fill your boots. It's rather humourous
Pols have always been the same laker, they just didn't get ratted out like they do now. I know you strictly by what you write and you write plenty. I currently hate our entire system because I feel it has been hijacked by pols. I am hoping for a retaking of the govt in the coming elections as it is our only hope right now to ever returning to some semblance of normal.
How do you see this coming about Gypsy?
I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to change our present political system. I hate that N. American Democracy has been taken over by Elite's and the overwhelming majority of people have become marginalized, at best, or completely ignored altogether.We had a chance here a couple of years ago, when one of the Leaders of a political party was replaced by someone with some real "for the people" type policies and real concern for things which are not going so well right now in the world.
It took about 15 minutes for the sitting government to start trying to destroy this man's character. Mis-leading ads, false accusations and just a whole campaign to ruin this man. They were successful, he's history and our politics are back to where they were before.
Short of a revolution I don't see change coming because the Elite's realize that balance has to be restored, it just isn't going to happen. People have become too lazy and content with their standards of living and the new toys our systems allow us to ever hit the streets in numbers which would make the political elites take notice even, let alone consider change. Of course sometimes you can't see what is coming and change happens sometimes at the most unexpected times. But we can't control that... just have to be ready to take advantage of a situation when one presents itself IMO.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
The reason I was asking, was that we had been agreeing about politicians in general there for a couple of posts and I wondered whether your post was regarding all politicians or just the current administration. After your answer here, it becomes clear that you once again are just blaming all your sore spots on Obama. So I won't bother discussing this topic with you anymore either. Too bad, I thought we were actually getting somewhere.
As for your comment regarding only one party in power... so do you believe that the Republican politicians in Washington right now are powerless? C'mon, you can't really? If that were the case why would they still bother to show up ? They may not control the levers of power... but that is a far different thing then saying they have NO power.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic as well.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
He's the one who started this whole mess we're in in the first place. It's not a republican/democrat issue; It's progressive/constitutionist issue. Teddy was a progressive and he paved the road we're currently on.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
He's the one who started this whole mess we're in in the first place. It's not a republican/democrat issue; It's progressive/constitutionist issue. Teddy was a progressive and he paved the road we're currently on.
While Teddy was a progressive as far as conservatives go, he was also a staunch lover of the "American Way", cared deeply about protecting our natural resources and exploiting them effectively to enrich it's citizens and took no crap from the two bit dictators around the world. He also spent his entire political career fighting corruption in govt. and generally followed a conservative approach to federal govt involvement in the lives of it's citizens. Perhaps your thinking more of Franklin as the one who took us down this road of expanding the federal govt into every facet of American life?
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
He's the one who started this whole mess we're in in the first place. It's not a republican/democrat issue; It's progressive/constitutionist issue. Teddy was a progressive and he paved the road we're currently on.
While Teddy was a progressive as far as conservatives go, he was also a staunch lover of the "American Way", cared deeply about protecting our natural resources and exploiting them effectively to enrich it's citizens and took no crap from the two bit dictators around the world. He also spent his entire political career fighting corruption in govt. and generally followed a conservative approach to federal govt involvement in the lives of it's citizens. Perhaps your thinking more of Franklin as the one who took us down this road of expanding the federal govt into every facet of American life?
Teddy did nowhere near as much damage as FDR... FDR is directly to blame for the growing government we are having to deal with today and has probably done more to damage our Democratic Republic than any President in history.
The only way it can happen is through the ballot box and removing those currently in power. It is a tall order since the incumbent has all the advantages in this situation. Term limits for all would be a nice start but those in power will never go for it. It would take a grass roots effort to push forward such an amendment and it is not likely to happen. Armed revolution has already been tried and failed the only thing left is political revolt from the mainstream of Americans. Our current direction will only lead us down the European model which is failing miserably at this time.
Are you speaking of "those currently in power" from both parties, or the current administration? Just for clarification.
Laker, only one party is in power, there is no shared power here. The Repubs are completely shut out, but I am fine with throwing them all out even though I know it will not happen. I long for a guy like Teddy Roosevelt!
He's the one who started this whole mess we're in in the first place. It's not a republican/democrat issue; It's progressive/constitutionist issue. Teddy was a progressive and he paved the road we're currently on.
While Teddy was a progressive as far as conservatives go, he was also a staunch lover of the "American Way", cared deeply about protecting our natural resources and exploiting them effectively to enrich it's citizens and took no crap from the two bit dictators around the world. He also spent his entire political career fighting corruption in govt. and generally followed a conservative approach to federal govt involvement in the lives of it's citizens. Perhaps your thinking more of Franklin as the one who took us down this road of expanding the federal govt into every facet of American life?
Teddy did nowhere near as much damage as FDR... FDR is directly to blame for the growing government we are having to deal with today and has probably done more to damage our Democratic Republic than any President in history.
I agree FDR did more to harm this country than any other president in history (though the jury is still out on Obama) it was Teddy who got the ball rolling. That was my only point. If he were a constitutional conservative, we may very well be in much different position. I'm tired of having to choose the lesser of 2 evils; why can't we for once have a choice between the better of 2 goods?
I think this may be the first ever post (outside maybe of Glen Beck at his syphillis treatments) where Teddy R. and FDR were disucussed as being so negative. While i dont disgree with everything being said here, it almost seems like people sitting around during Washington or Lincolns life and saying how bad they were and they would prove to be the downfall of society.
please define "Greed" for us, it is not as easy as it seems sometimes.
there is way more to the situation than "greed"
"greed" and "money" are just over simplifications used to vilify corporations. they are simple answers offered up to drum up hate against a corporation involved in a very complex situation. people want answers now. "greed" and "money" are quick and easy. there is way more to it than that i assure you.
yes that is cut and paste....
To be fair greed, money is all that exists for corporations at the top. You say you are for individual rights but sadly most of the largest companys could care less and many of the people in charge in govt side with them. Here's a link about a drug company who used blood contaminated with HIV for blood clotting. http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0503/22.php You say that BP isn't criminally responsible but let's see.... They were so cosey with the MMS department which I might add was staffed by the former admin who wasn't shy with staffing govt agencies with incompetent people, (cia director an example, fema another) that they were giving gifts (which were accepted), giving thousands/millions of dollars to campaigns to get around laws, not to mention drill beyond what was allowed and to not follow safety procedures. Now one could argue it isn't the companies fault for trying to get around things that cost them money that's the govt's job to enforce and show its teeth. But sadly thanks to the many years of people (the president and congress) neutering agencies and even putting people in them that are so close to the very organizations they are supposedly there to stop doing things outside the law. Yes I will agree that govt is to blame but if it was actually doing its job then many of the problems currently happening would not be there. Companies are like children, and the govt is the adult. Who's to blame, well both. BP hasn't broken any laws, no, they just were allowed to break them. The permits that were omitted were done because per law 30 days is all there is allowed to excess drilling areas but it takes much longer. That again is the govt's fault as they need to fix that. However while BP doesn't no sh-i-t about what it's doing thousands of gallons of oil are ruining the US's waters and I'm sure that damage will effect more than just that coast. Already it's destroying those economies. Now I think Obama has really dropped the ball, but who is he to go up against BP? I mean really, the govt is so neutered that it it can't even pass legislation to stop large banks from getting more tax payer money if they fail again, it can't even pass legislation to re-institued glass stegal or even break up large banks which already own 60 some percent of GDP! Congress is broken, and let's not forget the great supreme court ruling which allows companies to put unlimited money towards campaigns. Which if some ceo makes 4 billion in bonus's can buy the entire election! I mean that's fracking scarey!
Now BP is using deadly chemicals to disperce the oil which is even worse than the oil and now it's breaking it up which makes it harder to collect and it pushing it under the water. The FDA has told them to stop but BP said no and they aren't doing anything about it. Not to mention the MSDS specifies that respirators and gloves and suites need to be wore to work around these chemicals but hell BP says it's fine so the hell with MSDS. They are paying fisherman to clean up there mess, but with no protection and those that are showing up with protection are being told, hey either take it off or your not getting paid. Now that's really stand up if you ask me, so money isn't an issue aye? Corporations are really looking out for our rights. Yeah.... Now Obama should go up against this, should call these people out for the criminals they are but he won't. He doesn't have the power. You people like to hate on FDR all you want but he broke the large stranglehold on the American people by these elite above the law types, though not good enough it seems. Pfizer (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a4yV1nYxCGoA) the drug company paid like 2 billion in fines the largest ever for deaths of people using their drugs but no one went to jail, oh so 2 billion dollars in fines and these people walk for killing hundreds of people and injuring how many others? Yes it is the govt's fault but making it smaller won't help. Hell smaller would be fine just if it had the balls and teeth to make these people and companies get the same justice the poor get.
You have stated the leftist view very nicely phobicsquirrel. BTW no one on either side really thinks that business is looking out for the best interest of the people. That is the individual citizens responsibility in a free society. Business exists to create wealth for it's stockholders and employees, most business also are ethical in that approach but granted some are not. I work for a very large corporation and I have first hand experience with the ethics we are required to uphold in the production and shipment of our product. Any sort of impropriety will quickly get you dismissed from your job. Lumping all "Big Business" together is discriminatory at best, dishonest at worst. In the days of yesteryear when we truly had a capitalist economy there were many breaches of ethics. Our economy today is no longer truly capitalist, it is closer to a fascist economy. The problem I have with it all is some want to make it a socialist economy and that leads to nothing but mediocrity and subsistence. I enjoy a decent standard of living because of big business and appreciate what my labor has gained me through it. All big business is not bad, and some govt regulation is necessary to protect life/health. Criminal acts are criminal acts regardless of who commits them and those persons should be prosecuted to the full extent possible. But the show going on right now is just that, a show. 2 days after Katrina Bush was blamed for all the ills of a poorly prepared local and state govt who had jurisdiction over the situation, here, in federal waters, the Fed govt has done nothing in 30+ days to help the situation and all we get is press conferences and meetings with threats of prosecution. It is obvious that the Fed Govt had no plan of action to ever deal with this situation even though we paid a bunch of money for one that was already supposed to be in place. There will be plenty of time for finger pointing later, right now we need the Feds to get off their a$$ and let the states implement their own plans if the Feds don't have one and they clearly do not. Currently La wants to jump in and take some action and they are being held up by Federal permitting rules, now that is our federal govt and regulations in action.
Compassion and humanity=leftist......which must mean, greed and lack of ethics=????? I wont even go into what the teabaggers might be......Nice try squirrel, fight the good fight.
Compassion and humanity=leftist......which must mean, greed and lack of ethics=????? I wont even go into what the teabaggers might be......Nice try squirrel, fight the good fight.
That is just an inflammatory bunch of **** and you know it. Most of us conservatives are fine with people doing anything they want as long as they don't infringe on us and don't expect us to pay for it. like Margaret Thatcher said" the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money". BTW, I am still waiting on a good definition of "greed", no real takers yet.
Yes but who is going to go up against these billion dollar companies? I mean if govt is toothless, and regulations aren't being upheld, what, are you and I going to be able to do anything? It's not leftist, it just the way it is. Because you belong to a party or have views that support their agenda that is severly flawed then how is saying I showed the leftist view? It's not about left and right it's about right and wrong. This party thing is beyond stupid. What will work and what will unit people? See I don't hate companies, in fact we need more, but smaller ones like back in the 40's. Those are what made towns, not these huge conglomerates that poster themselves nationally or around the world. I mean dug companies are getting away with killing people and damaging their lives and children (http://industry.bnet.com/pharma/10007330/fines-havent-stopped-drug-company-lawbreaking-jailtime-for-executives-might/), Banks (the largest) are getting away with stealing tax payer money, Oil companies are getting away with contaminating our seas, health companies are getting a huge paycheck from the govt and continuing to steal money from people, and military contractor's are getting paid more and get away with pretty much anything while or service members get the shaft.. That's what is going on. It's not the shop down the corner or the auto worker that is the problem, they are just making a living. It's companies that can sell labor overseas and pay them crap and give them terrible condition only ship it back to USA for more than what they use to sell it or about the same while cutting huge costs. Poisoned toys from china is an example. WTF? These companies are evil.
Oh and the teabaggers, where are they? What could be worse than what is going on in the Gulf? Oh I see Freedomworks doesn't want to pay for buses to get them down there to go up against BP just to back and help the huge health insurance lobby..... gotcha. What will it take really to get people to stop being shills for these huge companies who buy their way into our govt and kill our people? What will it take to get gun toating, I need my guns and revolution gurues to wake up? This BP spill and how they are handling it, the banks that worked with govt to steal our money and tank our economy aren't enough? Oh my, let the free market work. Yes it has worked, and worked well but is killing or killed our country in doing it. Oh yes, we have regulations but they aren't being followed or enforced. Corporations/trans national corporations are getting away with things the MOB could only dream of.
Yes but who is going to go up against these billion dollar companies? I mean if govt is toothless, and regulations aren't being upheld, what, are you and I going to be able to do anything? It's not leftist, it just the way it is. Because you belong to a party or have views that support their agenda that is severly flawed then how is saying I showed the leftist view? It's not about left and right it's about right and wrong. This party thing is beyond stupid. What will work and what will unit people? See I don't hate companies, in fact we need more, but smaller ones like back in the 40's. Those are what made towns, not these huge conglomerates that poster themselves nationally or around the world. I mean dug companies are getting away with killing people and damaging their lives and children (http://industry.bnet.com/pharma/10007330/fines-havent-stopped-drug-company-lawbreaking-jailtime-for-executives-might/), Banks (the largest) are getting away with stealing tax payer money, Oil companies are getting away with contaminating our seas, health companies are getting a huge paycheck from the govt and continuing to steal money from people, and military contractor's are getting paid more and get away with pretty much anything while or service members get the shaft.. That's what is going on. It's not the shop down the corner or the auto worker that is the problem, they are just making a living. It's companies that can sell labor overseas and pay them crap and give them terrible condition only ship it back to USA for more than what they use to sell it or about the same while cutting huge costs. Poisoned toys from china is an example. WTF? These companies are evil.
Oh and the teabaggers, where are they? What could be worse than what is going on in the Gulf? Oh I see Freedomworks doesn't want to pay for buses to get them down there to go up against BP just to back and help the huge health insurance lobby..... gotcha. What will it take really to get people to stop being shills for these huge companies who buy their way into our govt and kill our people? What will it take to get gun toating, I need my guns and revolution gurues to wake up? This BP spill and how they are handling it, the banks that worked with govt to steal our money and tank our economy aren't enough? Oh my, let the free market work. Yes it has worked, and worked well but is killing or killed our country in doing it. Oh yes, we have regulations but they aren't being followed or enforced. Corporations/trans national corporations are getting away with things the MOB could only dream of.
Just say it man! The Govt needs to take over all of it! Right? Have the Govt ration it all out and the whiole world will be healed and we will have compassion, Humanity, and justice and we can sing Kumbaya around the campfire. Sounds wonderful!
You say that BP isn't criminally responsible but let's see....
i said nothing of the sort. i said they violated the rights of individuals. that is a crime and the courts should hold them accountable. please read what i have to say before you rant about how evil i am for being on BPs side. I am not on their side. if you took the time to read and understand what i am saying, you would clearly understand this.
You say that BP isn't criminally responsible but let's see....
i said nothing of the sort. i said they violated the rights of individuals. that is a crime and the courts should hold them accountable. please read what i have to say before you rant about how evil i am for being on BPs side. I am not on their side. if you took the time to read and understand what i am saying, you would clearly understand this.
Kuzi, I think that maybe he was referring to your stance that BP (and other big companies in different sectors) should not be regulated, but should be held accountable for any damages they do. At least that is what I got from reading your post past and present.
My question then would be... why do you think it is alright for them to spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up? Also, what about Exxon and the way they have acted for over 20 years since the Exxon Valdez spill? They have spent millons of $$$ in court trying to get out of paying the bills, and there is STILL oil on the beaches.
As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. In other words EFFECTIVE regulations can prevent these things from happening in the first place, if the compnaies follow them. If they were to not follow the regulation, then it would be obvious that they would be held accountable for all clean-up to be finished properly, and people to be compensated for lost incomes, property, and having their way of life turned upside down. Surely that would be a better situation then what is going on now or in the past. NO?
Compassion and humanity=leftist......which must mean, greed and lack of ethics=?????
that is all kinds of wrong on both ends. you should be ashamed of yourself for making such sweeping generalizations about any group.
try this one: Compassion and humanity = Freedom Greed and lack of ethics = Corrupt Government. how about that?
quit being devising and start looking for ways that we can coexist.
Vulchor:
I wont even go into what the teabaggers might be.
you keep using that word "teabagger" "teabagger" is a racial slur. this is a racial slur based upon a belief system. its just like calling someone of the Jewish faith a "***" how so? you are taking a group of people with a belief system that you dont subscribe to and attaching an offensive phrase to it.
every time you say the word "teabagger" the only thing i can think of is "racist"
i try to never call a group i disagree with anything but what they identify themselves as because to do so would demean me and make my argument weaker. if you choose to be a jerk, thats your choice. if you are trying to be like the above mentioned equation of a leftest, you have fallen short. thats not very compassionate, humane, or open minded of you.
i am sick of your style of hate on this board. everyone else on this board can discuss and debate political issues without resorting to racial slurs, hate, and attacks. we do it with respect to the other side. I may disagree with the squirrel but i respect him as a man. I respect his goals. i respect his intentions. i have a hard time respecting you when you never show a shred respect to anyone that disagrees with you. you just mock them, make sarcastic and offensive jokes at their expense, and drive a wedge into an otherwise civil conversation. ... then you get indignant when you get called out on it.
My question then would be... why do you think it is alright for them to spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up? Also, what about Exxon and the way they have acted for over 20 years since the Exxon Valdez spill? They have spent millons of $$$ in court trying to get out of paying the bills, and there is STILL oil on the beaches.
i dont think it is alright for them to "spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up" i think they should be punished for it. AND be made to clean it up. Just cleaning it up isnt enough.
laker1963:
As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
i agree. an ounce of prevention could have saved this company billions of dollars, and maybe even kept it open for business in the US. but they chose to risk it. now, because they violated rights, they should pay the price. had they made the smart decision, they wouldnt have to face the consequences.
laker1963:
In other words EFFECTIVE regulations can prevent these things from happening in the first place, if the compnaies follow them. If they were to not follow the regulation, then it would be obvious that they would be held accountable for all clean-up to be finished properly, and people to be compensated for lost incomes, property, and having their way of life turned upside down. Surely that would be a better situation then what is going on now or in the past. NO?
no. the regulations violate the rights of the company to run it as they see fit providing they do not violate the rights of individuals. you can be as dumb as you want but if you never hurt anyone you are doing ok. Clearly BP has hurt people. they have violated their rights. if the rig would never have sunk, this would not have happened. the relief wells would be a moot point because BP would not have violated rights.
BP clearly has practices that are not the right way of doing things. their company should pay dearly for it. if that regulation was in place and there were still no relief wells, the situation would be no different. BP STILL violated the rights of the individual, and should be held accountable.
My question then would be... why do you think it is alright for them to spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up? Also, what about Exxon and the way they have acted for over 20 years since the Exxon Valdez spill? They have spent millons of $$$ in court trying to get out of paying the bills, and there is STILL oil on the beaches.
i dont think it is alright for them to "spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up" i think they should be punished for it. AND be made to clean it up. Just cleaning it up isnt enough.
laker1963:
As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
i agree. an ounce of prevention could have saved this company billions of dollars, and maybe even kept it open for business in the US. but they chose to risk it. now, because they violated rights, they should pay the price. had they made the smart decision, they wouldnt have to face the consequences.
laker1963:
In other words EFFECTIVE regulations can prevent these things from happening in the first place, if the compnaies follow them. If they were to not follow the regulation, then it would be obvious that they would be held accountable for all clean-up to be finished properly, and people to be compensated for lost incomes, property, and having their way of life turned upside down. Surely that would be a better situation then what is going on now or in the past. NO?
no. the regulations violate the rights of the company to run it as they see fit providing they do not violate the rights of individuals. you can be as dumb as you want but if you never hurt anyone you are doing ok. Clearly BP has hurt people. they have violated their rights. if the rig would never have sunk, this would not have happened. the relief wells would be a moot point because BP would not have violated rights.
BP clearly has practices that are not the right way of doing things. their company should pay dearly for it. if that regulation was in place and there were still no relief wells, the situation would be no different. BP STILL violated the rights of the individual, and should be held accountable.
I know what you are saying Kuzi, but in your mind BP has more rights then people do. How? because, you would give them the right to spoil beaches if they choose to use poor business prasctices. Sure you agree they need to be punished, but why should the people in the gulf coast states or in Alaska be punished for living in an area where companies like BP would be entitled to carry out these practices?
Several times now you have referred to a hypothetical situation where "IF" the well had not sunk... but it did. What regulation were you talking about, regarding your point on the relief wells? The fact is the regulation I am talking about would require BP to drill those relief wells, allowing the flow of oil to be shut off shortly after the accident, so your point seems moot, because it DID happen. Why do you want to avoid what happened and talk in hypotheticals?
Why I said that you think BP has more rights then people is because in your scenario BP has the right to carry out poor business practices if they choose ( a violation of the peoples along the gulf coast, not to mention possibly other countries rights to live and work where they do) as long as they "clean-up" the mess and face punishment. Instead of protecting all those hundreds of thousand people they affected, you would have those peoples lives turned upside down so that BP can act as they wish. Makes no sense to me. Even my point about peoples rights was turned around into BP's rights. History shows that what a company considers clean and what people who have to live in these places consider clean are two different things. You can't avoid that your way protects BP's rights over the rights of people, who were actually hurt in this case. It is NOT a hypothetical, it actually happened so I don't really understand your position.
I am not being trite here when I ask this, OK Kuzi...
Do you think that things such as gaurds over danger points on machines in a workplace, or handrails on stairways at work should be up to a company to decide if they want to spend money on such things? I am just trying to gauge just how far your beliefs on the right of a company not to spend money on safety or safe business practices goes. Should there be NO regulations? What about seatbelts, or air-bags, should they also be up to the auto makers to decide whether they want to put them into vehicles? Where does it end?
Compassion and humanity=leftist......which must mean, greed and lack of ethics=?????
that is all kinds of wrong on both ends. you should be ashamed of yourself for making such sweeping generalizations about any group.
try this one: Compassion and humanity = Freedom Greed and lack of ethics = Corrupt Government. how about that?
quit being devising and start looking for ways that we can coexist.
Once again you think that govt is at the heart of lack of ethics and greed.... Shows your mindset. YES they have a hand in it, just like these multi bilion dollar corporations (mind you they are trans national mostly) lobby the hell out of them and break laws left and right. They are both to blame the thing is they continue to do it and to break down any wall for which laws exist. Paying off congress is just the way they do it and that is where all their excess profit comes into play.
Oh and what laker said was right about BP being responsible.
I know what you are saying Kuzi, but in your mind BP has more rights then people do. How? because, you would give them the right to spoil beaches if they choose to use poor business prasctices.
no, they dont have that right. nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. because they violated that right, they should be punished. it does not matter what the regulations are or are not. if they are violating the rights of people by spoiling the beaches, fishing waters, properties, etc of the people they should be punished.
laker1963:
Several times now you have referred to a hypothetical situation where "IF" the well had not sunk... but it did. What regulation were you talking about, regarding your point on the relief wells? The fact is the regulation I am talking about would require BP to drill those relief wells, allowing the flow of oil to be shut off shortly after the accident, so your point seems moot, because it DID happen. Why do you want to avoid what happened and talk in hypotheticals?
i speak like this because the relief wells themselves are neutral in rights. it does not matter if they are there or not. it comes down to if BP violates rights or not. they have in this case. if they didnt have the well and nothing happened they have not violated rights. therefor, not having the relief wells have no impact on if rights are violated. it was not hypothetical at all until the rig sank. many many wells did and do exist that have no relief wells but are not spewing oil into water. those wells are not violating rights. there is no problem there.
laker1963:
Why I said that you think BP has more rights then people is because in your scenario BP has the right to carry out poor business practices if they choose ( a violation of the peoples along the gulf coast, not to mention possibly other countries rights to live and work where they do) as long as they "clean-up" the mess and face punishment. Instead of protecting all those hundreds of thousand people they affected, you would have those peoples lives turned upside down so that BP can act as they wish. Makes no sense to me.
i understand your intentions. it is in fact a good cause. i can even understand why you would want those regulations. i just cant bring myself to agree with them because BP does have the right to be stupid as long as they dont hurt anyone. unfortunately, they did. they were swinging their fists all over the place. unfortunately, our noses were hit. thats where their rights ended. this is where the government steps in.
laker1963:
Do you think that things such as gaurds over danger points on machines in a workplace, or handrails on stairways at work should be up to a company to decide if they want to spend money on such things? I am just trying to gauge just how far your beliefs on the right of a company not to spend money on safety or safe business practices goes. Should there be NO regulations? What about seatbelts, or air-bags, should they also be up to the auto makers to decide whether they want to put them into vehicles? Where does it end?
these are all good points. these come down to people. let me turn it around for you: would you work at a place that had no safety rails or warnings on machines? would you still put on your seatbelt if the law was not in place that you had to? would you buy a car if it didnt have one?
Comments
Do some reading and you should be able to find at least a dozen mentions in my posts about POLITICIANS not REPUBLICAN politicians. I think the system sucks. The politicians of today can't hold a candle to the politicians of a few decades ago even. If you would like to keep making your baseless accusations against me... fill your boots. It's rather humourous
You are not truly making that argument and that all the problems and issues inherited should be fixed by now, or are no longer anyones fault but this admistration are you? What is being attacked here is greed by large corporations set on profit as opposed to any semblance of the common good, nothing further. You BTW brought up Bush, which must show (using the same logic you seemed to) that somewhere you must agree he is to blame here (and youre being passive agressive) and should have done more for everyone when he had an entire country behind him...like after 9/11. And please just because I maentioned that date, I dont need a ton of posts how he kept us all safe....as though Al Gore wouldve gave away NY Harbor to Al Quaeda out of fear.
if BP drilled a million wells, NONE of them with relief wells, and not a single one caused a problem, did BP violate any rights? IF they drill the same wells all of them WITH relief wells, did they violate any rights? the answer to both is "NO."
if BP drills one well without a relief well and it takes away the lively hood of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people because it burned and fell over causing an oil spill like the world has never seen, have they violated rights? yes.
the violation of rights is not in if they have a relief well. it is if they caused a disaster. not having the relief well didnt cause the disaster. it could have helped keep this from being this bad, but the disaster was caused by an explosion and the sinking of an oil platform. this may or may not have been an accident.
there is no regulation currently that a relief well needs to be drilled. i still dont want there to be.
what should happen next (if BP is the actual culprit) is the courts should step in. this is the proper action of the government. people that are effected should sue them for as much as they can get away with. the government should sue BP for destroying protected land.
BP should be left either a shadow of their former selves if they are able to exist at all after all is said and done.
this will show the rest of the oil companies in the US what will happen to you if you violate the rights through negligence of this degree. there is still no rule that you have to drill relief wells, but i bet a few more will be drilled in the future just to ensure the longevity of the company.
yes that is cut and paste....
I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to change our present political system. I hate that N. American Democracy has been taken over by Elite's and the overwhelming majority of people have become marginalized, at best, or completely ignored altogether.We had a chance here a couple of years ago, when one of the Leaders of a political party was replaced by someone with some real "for the people" type policies and real concern for things which are not going so well right now in the world.
It took about 15 minutes for the sitting government to start trying to destroy this man's character. Mis-leading ads, false accusations and just a whole campaign to ruin this man. They were successful, he's history and our politics are back to where they were before.
Short of a revolution I don't see change coming because the Elite's realize that balance has to be restored, it just isn't going to happen. People have become too lazy and content with their standards of living and the new toys our systems allow us to ever hit the streets in numbers which would make the political elites take notice even, let alone consider change. Of course sometimes you can't see what is coming and change happens sometimes at the most unexpected times. But we can't control that... just have to be ready to take advantage of a situation when one presents itself IMO.
The reason I was asking, was that we had been agreeing about politicians in general there for a couple of posts and I wondered whether your post was regarding all politicians or just the current administration. After your answer here, it becomes clear that you once again are just blaming all your sore spots on Obama. So I won't bother discussing this topic with you anymore either. Too bad, I thought we were actually getting somewhere.
As for your comment regarding only one party in power... so do you believe that the Republican politicians in Washington right now are powerless? C'mon, you can't really? If that were the case why would they still bother to show up ? They may not control the levers of power... but that is a far different thing then saying they have NO power.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic as well.
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/0503/22.php
You say that BP isn't criminally responsible but let's see....
They were so cosey with the MMS department which I might add was staffed by the former admin who wasn't shy with staffing govt agencies with incompetent people, (cia director an example, fema another) that they were giving gifts (which were accepted), giving thousands/millions of dollars to campaigns to get around laws, not to mention drill beyond what was allowed and to not follow safety procedures. Now one could argue it isn't the companies fault for trying to get around things that cost them money that's the govt's job to enforce and show its teeth. But sadly thanks to the many years of people (the president and congress) neutering agencies and even putting people in them that are so close to the very organizations they are supposedly there to stop doing things outside the law. Yes I will agree that govt is to blame but if it was actually doing its job then many of the problems currently happening would not be there. Companies are like children, and the govt is the adult. Who's to blame, well both.
BP hasn't broken any laws, no, they just were allowed to break them. The permits that were omitted were done because per law 30 days is all there is allowed to excess drilling areas but it takes much longer. That again is the govt's fault as they need to fix that. However while BP doesn't no sh-i-t about what it's doing thousands of gallons of oil are ruining the US's waters and I'm sure that damage will effect more than just that coast. Already it's destroying those economies. Now I think Obama has really dropped the ball, but who is he to go up against BP? I mean really, the govt is so neutered that it it can't even pass legislation to stop large banks from getting more tax payer money if they fail again, it can't even pass legislation to re-institued glass stegal or even break up large banks which already own 60 some percent of GDP! Congress is broken, and let's not forget the great supreme court ruling which allows companies to put unlimited money towards campaigns. Which if some ceo makes 4 billion in bonus's can buy the entire election! I mean that's fracking scarey!
Now BP is using deadly chemicals to disperce the oil which is even worse than the oil and now it's breaking it up which makes it harder to collect and it pushing it under the water. The FDA has told them to stop but BP said no and they aren't doing anything about it. Not to mention the MSDS specifies that respirators and gloves and suites need to be wore to work around these chemicals but hell BP says it's fine so the hell with MSDS. They are paying fisherman to clean up there mess, but with no protection and those that are showing up with protection are being told, hey either take it off or your not getting paid. Now that's really stand up if you ask me, so money isn't an issue aye? Corporations are really looking out for our rights. Yeah....
Now Obama should go up against this, should call these people out for the criminals they are but he won't. He doesn't have the power. You people like to hate on FDR all you want but he broke the large stranglehold on the American people by these elite above the law types, though not good enough it seems. Pfizer (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a4yV1nYxCGoA) the drug company paid like 2 billion in fines the largest ever for deaths of people using their drugs but no one went to jail, oh so 2 billion dollars in fines and these people walk for killing hundreds of people and injuring how many others? Yes it is the govt's fault but making it smaller won't help. Hell smaller would be fine just if it had the balls and teeth to make these people and companies get the same justice the poor get.
Oh and the teabaggers, where are they? What could be worse than what is going on in the Gulf? Oh I see Freedomworks doesn't want to pay for buses to get them down there to go up against BP just to back and help the huge health insurance lobby..... gotcha. What will it take really to get people to stop being shills for these huge companies who buy their way into our govt and kill our people? What will it take to get gun toating, I need my guns and revolution gurues to wake up? This BP spill and how they are handling it, the banks that worked with govt to steal our money and tank our economy aren't enough? Oh my, let the free market work. Yes it has worked, and worked well but is killing or killed our country in doing it. Oh yes, we have regulations but they aren't being followed or enforced. Corporations/trans national corporations are getting away with things the MOB could only dream of.
i said they violated the rights of individuals.
that is a crime and the courts should hold them accountable.
please read what i have to say before you rant about how evil i am for being on BPs side. I am not on their side.
if you took the time to read and understand what i am saying, you would clearly understand this.
My question then would be... why do you think it is alright for them to spoil beaches, ruin livelihoods, kill wildlife, and possibly cause damage to other country's lands, as long as they pay to clean it up? Also, what about Exxon and the way they have acted for over 20 years since the Exxon Valdez spill? They have spent millons of $$$ in court trying to get out of paying the bills, and there is STILL oil on the beaches.
As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. In other words EFFECTIVE regulations can prevent these things from happening in the first place, if the compnaies follow them. If they were to not follow the regulation, then it would be obvious that they would be held accountable for all clean-up to be finished properly, and people to be compensated for lost incomes, property, and having their way of life turned upside down. Surely that would be a better situation then what is going on now or in the past. NO?
try this one:
Compassion and humanity = Freedom
Greed and lack of ethics = Corrupt Government.
how about that?
quit being devising and start looking for ways that we can coexist. you keep using that word "teabagger"
"teabagger" is a racial slur. this is a racial slur based upon a belief system. its just like calling someone of the Jewish faith a "***"
how so? you are taking a group of people with a belief system that you dont subscribe to and attaching an offensive phrase to it.
every time you say the word "teabagger" the only thing i can think of is "racist"
i try to never call a group i disagree with anything but what they identify themselves as because to do so would demean me and make my argument weaker. if you choose to be a jerk, thats your choice. if you are trying to be like the above mentioned equation of a leftest, you have fallen short. thats not very compassionate, humane, or open minded of you.
i am sick of your style of hate on this board.
everyone else on this board can discuss and debate political issues without resorting to racial slurs, hate, and attacks. we do it with respect to the other side. I may disagree with the squirrel but i respect him as a man. I respect his goals. i respect his intentions.
i have a hard time respecting you when you never show a shred respect to anyone that disagrees with you. you just mock them, make sarcastic and offensive jokes at their expense, and drive a wedge into an otherwise civil conversation.
... then you get indignant when you get called out on it.
i think they should be punished for it.
AND
be made to clean it up. Just cleaning it up isnt enough.
i agree. an ounce of prevention could have saved this company billions of dollars, and maybe even kept it open for business in the US. but they chose to risk it. now, because they violated rights, they should pay the price. had they made the smart decision, they wouldnt have to face the consequences. no.
the regulations violate the rights of the company to run it as they see fit providing they do not violate the rights of individuals. you can be as dumb as you want but if you never hurt anyone you are doing ok.
Clearly BP has hurt people. they have violated their rights. if the rig would never have sunk, this would not have happened. the relief wells would be a moot point because BP would not have violated rights.
BP clearly has practices that are not the right way of doing things. their company should pay dearly for it. if that regulation was in place and there were still no relief wells, the situation would be no different. BP STILL violated the rights of the individual, and should be held accountable.
Several times now you have referred to a hypothetical situation where "IF" the well had not sunk... but it did. What regulation were you talking about, regarding your point on the relief wells? The fact is the regulation I am talking about would require BP to drill those relief wells, allowing the flow of oil to be shut off shortly after the accident, so your point seems moot, because it DID happen. Why do you want to avoid what happened and talk in hypotheticals?
Why I said that you think BP has more rights then people is because in your scenario BP has the right to carry out poor business practices if they choose ( a violation of the peoples along the gulf coast, not to mention possibly other countries rights to live and work where they do) as long as they "clean-up" the mess and face punishment. Instead of protecting all those hundreds of thousand people they affected, you would have those peoples lives turned upside down so that BP can act as they wish. Makes no sense to me. Even my point about peoples rights was turned around into BP's rights. History shows that what a company considers clean and what people who have to live in these places consider clean are two different things. You can't avoid that your way protects BP's rights over the rights of people, who were actually hurt in this case. It is NOT a hypothetical, it actually happened so I don't really understand your position.
I am not being trite here when I ask this, OK Kuzi...
Do you think that things such as gaurds over danger points on machines in a workplace, or handrails on stairways at work should be up to a company to decide if they want to spend money on such things? I am just trying to gauge just how far your beliefs on the right of a company not to spend money on safety or safe business practices goes. Should there be NO regulations? What about seatbelts, or air-bags, should they also be up to the auto makers to decide whether they want to put them into vehicles? Where does it end?
Oh and what laker said was right about BP being responsible.
This is the thing, you seem to think that govt should stay out, well the sad thing they have for a long while. Just some fun reading...
BP Aims to Avoid Fresh Restrictions on Drilling- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704032704575268790823002422.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#printMode
More lobbing - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20006472-10391695.html
BP's contract to fisherman - http://unc.news21.com/index.php/powering-a-nation-blog/bp-oil-spill-contract-and-letter-cloud-media-access.html & http://www.wwltv.com/news/local/BP-legal-problems-92731449.html
A little history on this Oil Industry - http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/06/obamas-revelations-about-oil-industry-and-its-slimy-history
BP trying to buy its way out of trouble - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hoC7A7m2mWNzeSLX1d7k06DYEk9AD9FK36UG1
Info on LOBBYING in Washington - http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/
BP Attorneys, some info - http://www.law.com/jsp/law/LawArticleFriendly.jsp?id=1202459020950
if they didnt have the well and nothing happened they have not violated rights. therefor, not having the relief wells have no impact on if rights are violated.
it was not hypothetical at all until the rig sank. many many wells did and do exist that have no relief wells but are not spewing oil into water. those wells are not violating rights. there is no problem there. i understand your intentions.
it is in fact a good cause. i can even understand why you would want those regulations.
i just cant bring myself to agree with them because BP does have the right to be stupid as long as they dont hurt anyone. unfortunately, they did. they were swinging their fists all over the place. unfortunately, our noses were hit. thats where their rights ended. this is where the government steps in. these are all good points. these come down to people. let me turn it around for you: would you work at a place that had no safety rails or warnings on machines?
would you still put on your seatbelt if the law was not in place that you had to? would you buy a car if it didnt have one?
you thinking government can fix everything shows your mindset. an ethical and not greedy congress would not except bribes.
i think BP IS responsible. i think they should be held accountable.
no, this is the point where government should step in. BP violated rights. it is now the governments job to provide justice. ok.... BP was stupid. we have already established that.