Gays in the Military---Dont Ask, Dont Tell

VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
I believe I am for the repeal of this for many different reasons. But, I have also heard some arguements as to why Dont Ask Dont Tell should remain...and have thought it was at least a decent argument. Curious as to what the BOTLs here may feel about this...especially you guys who served in the military and may know this first hand. I have no ultra strong opinion on this, but would like some opinions and maybe some devils advocate even as a way to explore this further if anyone is interested.

Comments

  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    I am on the fence on this one. I can see where it would make some soldiers uncomfortable but I am sure there are much more serious matters that make soldiers uncomfortable aside from this one like being shot at. If this is changed, do they get housed with the same sex? or is some special provision supposed to be made for them? Will it cause issues with straight soldiers that are housed in close quarters? Since I am straight as an arrow I have know idea how this would be dealt with or how the homosexual mindset works. Personally I don't care what you want to lay with but I do see where it could cause some problems. Vulchor, I bet you didn't expect that from an ultra-conservative, did you?
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    Actually gypsy I cant peg answer on this one to anyone, lol---its difficult. I see where your coming from and have some similiar feelings. I do not think any special provision should be made for them and dont think one will. I think to believe every gay guy is gonna want all the guys there is not true...lord knows the opposite way, not every woman I knew wanted me (few infact did, lol)....but like it or not homophobia does play a role here. What size role and what impact it has, I guess is the question. To me it seems that if I trust the guy to have my back and he does his job----I dont know what the issue is, but I dont know if its that simple or not.
  • Nick2021Nick2021 Posts: 938
    I'm not sure how many responses you will get from the military side due to the politics involved. However, I do believe it will have an impact on other areas of operations/regulations which would definitely need to be addressed. For example, if gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, what will the impact be with male/male & female/female relationships? Take barrack guidelines for example...currently, we prohibit males from being in female rooms and females being in male rooms...will this same standard be extended to gays? How would you enforce such a policy? I know it sounds like a simple/easy thing to fix (maybe even a little irrelevant in most people's eyes), but this is one of many concerns some service members have already brought up. I think this policy will have an impact on many areas, and with the high ops tempo & deployment bands we're on right now, I think this should be shelved until a future date. When that date might be....who knows..... but with the amount of issues we're dealing with I can't imagine trying to tackle this issue now. Currently I'm in Iraq, and we're having such a tough time trying to work certain issues it's almost impossible to keep up with everything...I can't imagine the resources needed to tackle this area.
  • Nick2021Nick2021 Posts: 938
    fla-gypsy:
    I am on the fence on this one. I can see where it would make some soldiers uncomfortable but I am sure there are much more serious matters that make soldiers uncomfortable aside from this one like being shot at. If this is changed, do they get housed with the same sex? or is some special provision supposed to be made for them? Will it cause issues with straight soldiers that are housed in close quarters? Since I am straight as an arrow I have know idea how this would be dealt with or how the homosexual mindset works. Personally I don't care what you want to lay with but I do see where it could cause some problems. Vulchor, I bet you didn't expect that from an ultra-conservative, did you?
    You beat me to it gypsy...just posted my response before I saw yours!
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    I know that a popular thing for some Gay peeps to do is go to the gym and hit the showers. That would be like me showering in the Women's locker room, except for the screaming and vomiting by all the ladies at my hairy fat self. Either way, most Gay Men I know are respectful of other peoples personal sexual choice and aren't going to hit on them or push the issue with anyone. With that said, if someone wants to join the Military and serve our Country, more power to them, Gay, Straight, or whatever.
  • NYHCx516xNYHCx516x Posts: 728
    Best Quote ever... From the movie the birdcage:

    "You know, I used to feel that way too until I found out that Alexander the Great was a ***. Talk about gays in the military! "

    :)
  • The only issue that I could see with gays in the military would be homophobia. If someone who was extremely homophobic, to the point of violence towards gay people that could cause a whole lot of problems within the squad. Other than that, I see no wrong in gay people wanting to serve in the military. It's honorable, everyone should be able to make that choice of fighting for our country freely. Just like they made the choice of coming out. They should not be punished for this if it's something that they feel strongly about.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    And isnt the homophobia...to the point of violence...the fault of that person? Should they be the one punished...or should the openly gay person be punished by not being allowed to join as be themsevles?
  • Vulchor:
    And isnt the homophobia...to the point of violence...the fault of that person? Should they be the one punished...or should the openly gay person be punished by not being allowed to join as be themsevles?
    It is the fault of that person. I'm saying that it isn't right to punish gay people who want to join the military.
  • lilwing88lilwing88 ChitownPosts: 2,812 ✭✭✭
    I personally don't think it matters what anyone who is not a service member's opinion is....... I don't serve in the military, therefore I have no opinion. I think this is best left up to the leaders of the four branches (who all unanimously oppose the repeal, btw) and the service men and women themselves to decide. They're the ones risking their lives.
    Guns don't kill people, Daddies with pretty daughters do…..
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    lilwing88:
    I personally don't think it matters what anyone who is not a service member's opinion is....... I don't serve in the military, therefore I have no opinion. I think this is best left up to the leaders of the four branches (who all unanimously oppose the repeal, btw) and the service men and women themselves to decide. They're the ones risking their lives.
    Actually you are mistaken, many military leaders believe it is time to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell. Including Defense Sec Robert Gates and Adm. Michael Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

    http://washingtonindependent.com/75542/mullen-and-gates-forcefully-back-repeal-of-militarys-gay-ban
  • ejenne87ejenne87 Posts: 1,925
    These Filthy Hands:
    The only issue that I could see with gays in the military would be homophobia. If someone who was extremely homophobic, to the point of violence towards gay people that could cause a whole lot of problems within the squad. Other than that, I see no wrong in gay people wanting to serve in the military. It's honorable, everyone should be able to make that choice of fighting for our country freely. Just like they made the choice of coming out. They should not be punished for this if it's something that they feel strongly about.
    Homophobia is on the exact same level as racism though as far as violence among the ranks. It is illegal to fight someone because of their race, and is also illegal no matter their sexual preference. This is a non-issue, as far as I am concerned.

    As for my thoughts on gays openly serving in the military: I am 100% in favor of the repeal of DADT. I do not have to hide aspects of my life from the military as a straight man, therefore a gay man should not have to either. It's not a very complicated issue logically/morally. I think the issue was hit right on the head earlier in this thread. There are policies in place that forbid males and females from sharing a common living space for a variety of reasons. While I have absolutely no problem living or showering with a gay man I can see where some people will. I do believe that this is due to unjustified prejudices and ignorance, because the gay mind is the exact same mind as the straight mind. Not all women are attractive to me, and so I have to believe that not all men are attractive to gay men. I do not feel it is an issue of gay men being attracted to the straight men they work with, because that happens every day. I feel it is an issue of not understanding and not accepting that gay people are the EXACT same as straight people, and even if that's impossible to grasp there is still a job and a mission that is VASTLY more important than if your bunk mate enjoys watching you in the shower or not.

    I am in the Army, living in North Carolina, and one of my best friends is gay and serves with me. To me, it makes no difference if this person is attracted to me or not. What does matter to me though, is that I know that this person will do whatever it takes to make sure that we accomplish our mission. If I am about to be harmed, I know this person will do everything in their power, including give up their own life, to save mine.
  • ejenne87ejenne87 Posts: 1,925
    Just to be clear, that entire post was not in response to These Filthy Hands, just the first little bit. The rest of it is simply my thoughts and beliefs on the issue.
  • JZJZ Posts: 827
    dennisking:
    I know that a popular thing for some Gay peeps to do is go to the gym and hit the showers. That would be like me showering in the Women's locker room, except for the screaming and vomiting by all the ladies at my hairy fat self. Either way, most Gay Men I know are respectful of other peoples personal sexual choice and aren't going to hit on them or push the issue with anyone. With that said, if someone wants to join the Military and serve our Country, more power to them, Gay, Straight, or whatever.
    I for one wouldn't mind showering in the ladies room! LOL
  • Jetmech_63Jetmech_63 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭
    PuroFreak:
    Actually you are mistaken, many military leaders believe it is time to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell. Including Defense Sec Robert Gates and Adm. Michael Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


    This is true, the far upper echelon does support it. However i dont think there are two people farther removed from the deckplates in our whole chain. Mullen is a decent guy, but he always has his string pulled by someone. Proof is the uniform i'm wearing now...this hideous blue camo pattern that we bastardized from the Marines which serves no pupose other than enhancing our "Warrior Image"....so much for our sailor image....i digress....

    The deckplates are mostly in favor(about 65/35 ish from what ive seen) but some of the older, old school guys still have a problem with it. The Navy is known for it's close quarters and severe lack of privacy. When you shower on a ship, your gonna see some nuts and ass, it happens, comes with this job. Crew privacy and comfort is an afterthought of building a warship, just the way it is and always has been. And having an openly gay person in that setting will make other uncomfortable. Will gay males be berthed and shower with the females? If so ever swingin d!ck on the boat will become "gay" and now you just made the whole ship coed....so that option is out. So do you give them their own berthing and shower, well, that takes rearranging the compartments on a ship, something that is set when the ship is designed....then someone may claim segregation...unequal this or that....so that option is out. There are currently a lot of gays serving in the military. Dont think for a second there arent, i'd comfortably say there is atleast 1 or 2 in every command at my base. But for the non-gays as long as the lid is on it, there is no problem(speaking from those who do have a problem with it). Kinda like a "we dont have to deal with it if we dont know about it". I also goes against certain peoples religious beliefs. Well, so does eating pork for muslims, and we have muslims in the military. Doesnt stop me from sitting beside him and eating bacon.

    These are not opinions of mine, these are the hard facts that the Navy is looking at. They are building a solution because they know the day is coming, but that day almost got circumvented and rammed down our throats before anyone was ready. As for my opinions, i'll keep my opinions to cigars. Sadly there are those on this board who "Oh yeah but" and "But what if" things in an effort to raise hate and discontent.

    Besides....dont we have better things to worry about....like fighting wars....you know...all that other "military stuff"....
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    With DADT in place, and showers as they are now...you never know if the other guy is gay anyway, cause he cant be open. So I dont really understand how different that would be except maybe if you would cover the ol' nut pouch if in there with a gay guy-------This again gives off the idea that just because the man is gay, that means he will want to see you naked...which I am sure is false. Interesting debate to be sure

    EJ, let me say (as I know you're military), thank you for a great response and very well thought out---I very much enjoyed reading your view.
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    With DADT in place, and showers as they are now...you never know if the other guy is gay anyway, cause he cant be open. So I dont really understand how different that would be except maybe if you would cover the ol' nut pouch if in there with a gay guy-------This again gives off the idea that just because the man is gay, that means he will want to see you naked...which I am sure is false. Interesting debate to be sure

    EJ, let me say (as I know you're military), thank you for a great response and very well thought out---I very much enjoyed reading your view.
    and who's to say that you are that person's type anyway. I've got no problem with it but i can see that there may be some logistics involved with concerns and the like.
  • DiamondogDiamondog Posts: 4,169
    JZ:
    I for one wouldn't mind showering in the ladies room! LOL
    Got to take the BAD with the good lol
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    fla-gypsy:
    I am on the fence on this one. I can see where it would make some soldiers uncomfortable but I am sure there are much more serious matters that make soldiers uncomfortable aside from this one like being shot at. If this is changed, do they get housed with the same sex? or is some special provision supposed to be made for them? Will it cause issues with straight soldiers that are housed in close quarters? Since I am straight as an arrow I have know idea how this would be dealt with or how the homosexual mindset works. Personally I don't care what you want to lay with but I do see where it could cause some problems. Vulchor, I bet you didn't expect that from an ultra-conservative, did you?
    I couldn't say it any better than this. +1
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