Want to get away with... anything? Join Blackwater (XE services)..

So it seems murder is something private contractors can get away with, however our own troops are put in jail for abusing detainees while the brass avoids the cell. Sure there are always the fall guy but this, with witness's and such? well here's the story...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/21/world/21contractors.html?_r=2&hp
Not sure if it scares anyone else but it does me. A private company that is a small version of our very own military and for the highest bidder. Damn, movies portray this.

Comments

  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    this has been happening a really long time. it's against the international laws to target heads of state as well other supporting countries strong citizens. this keeps us legal on the whole international scene. is it questionable, yup. is it happening, yup. do other countries do it as well, absolutely. when in rome
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Something to remember, as well, is that when these things happen abroad, it is seen as "America did this...America did that...", not as the act of a private contractor or corporation, it is "America" that is to blame. As if our own bombastic and bullying foreign policy weren't enough to alienate the rest of the world.
    Oh, and I realize that our brothers on the far-right will immediately start saying that it is I who am blaming America, "blame America first" goes the Sean Hannity rant, but if we don't take reponsibility for our own actions, if we hold ourselves unaccountable, who then will hold us to account? For there will be a day of reckoning. I say, let's police ourselves, because if we don't, a far worse fate is down the line.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • The SniperThe Sniper Posts: 3,910
    Amos Umwhat:
    Something to remember, as well, is that when these things happen abroad, it is seen as "America did this...America did that...", not as the act of a private contractor or corporation, it is "America" that is to blame. As if our own bombastic and bullying foreign policy weren't enough to alienate the rest of the world.
    Oh, and I realize that our brothers on the far-right will immediately start saying that it is I who am blaming America, "blame America first" goes the Sean Hannity rant, but if we don't take reponsibility for our own actions, if we hold ourselves unaccountable, who then will hold us to account? For there will be a day of reckoning. I say, let's police ourselves, because if we don't, a far worse fate is down the line.
    I usually dont get taken in by bait like this but I gotta blow the bullshit whistle here. Bombastic & bullying foreign policy? All we've been doing on the world stage when it comes to foreign relations for the last TWO YEARS is kiss the *** of any country that says anything negative about America then turns around & drops their pants.

    I do agree somewhat on your last point. Let's get back to foreign policy pre-1940 style. Other countries are soverign nations and can deal with their own issues. Foreign policy relates to trade - and VERY little else. Lets get back to being a production based economy instead of a service based economy & reestablish a good portion of our own self-sufficiency. And lets police ourselves. Let the world do 100% without any American involvement whatsoever.

    No more troops on foreign soil to "flex our military might" - even in countries where young women are stoned to death in public for the heinous crime of attending school. Instead, lets police ourselves by using those same troops who are overseas to secure our borders. Maybe we could even police our own immigration while we're at it.

    No more "Evil America" involving itself in other nations right to self-determination with that humanitarian aid which those nations scream always come with strings attached. Let African nations commiting genocide practice the law of the jungle - only the strong survive. Lets take all that humanitarian aid and police ourselves. Who knows? Maybe we could eradicate our own hunger and homelessness problem. Our financial crisis would certainly be eased by not giving hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to the UN when 80% of the member nations contribute NOTHING - no funds, no humanitarian aid, no troops to prevent said genocide.

    So please, educate me. What far worse fate is there down the line than American children growing up without a parent because America's young men & women in uniform are dying every day in foreign lands trying to protect people who live under brutal regimes when most of those people see nothing wrong with the way they live? They call America brutal and barbaric then turn around and throw acid in the faces of their young women for the heinous crime of walking out of their homes without a male escort.

    What far worse fate is there than American citizens starve homeless in the streets while use our tax dollars to help them at the 2% level - yet spend the hundreds of millions of dollars to feed, clothe, house & educate peoples in foreign nations.

    So as I said, Im with you - because you're right. Lets quit sticking our bombastic and bullying noses in other peoples issues.

    Lets leave the Kuwaits of the world to be crushed and oppressed by the Iraqs of the world for having committed the heinous atrocity of daring to have a higher GNP than their neighbors.

    Lets leave the Somalias of the world to starve in the streets instead of bullying them into policy changes in the guise of humanitarian aid.

    Lets leave the Serbias and Croatias of the world to commit genocide against each other and nearly drag the entire continent of Europe down with them.

    Speaking of genocide, lets leave the Turkeys and Iraqs of the world to destroy an entire race of people like the Kurds rather than let them have enough land to establish their own nation and be able to police THEMSELVES and practice a little self determination instead of just slaughtering them.

    And for all these horrible transgressions, American troops die and American debt grows at an astronomical rate. Thanks for warning us that Doomsday is coming. Nobody else noticed for all these years.

  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    The Sniper:
    Amos Umwhat:
    Something to remember, as well, is that when these things happen abroad, it is seen as "America did this...America did that...", not as the act of a private contractor or corporation, it is "America" that is to blame. As if our own bombastic and bullying foreign policy weren't enough to alienate the rest of the world.
    Oh, and I realize that our brothers on the far-right will immediately start saying that it is I who am blaming America, "blame America first" goes the Sean Hannity rant, but if we don't take reponsibility for our own actions, if we hold ourselves unaccountable, who then will hold us to account? For there will be a day of reckoning. I say, let's police ourselves, because if we don't, a far worse fate is down the line.
    I usually dont get taken in by bait like this but I gotta blow the bullshit whistle here. Bombastic & bullying foreign policy? All we've been doing on the world stage when it comes to foreign relations for the last TWO YEARS is kiss the *** of any country that says anything negative about America then turns around & drops their pants.

    I do agree somewhat on your last point. Let's get back to foreign policy pre-1940 style. Other countries are soverign nations and can deal with their own issues. Foreign policy relates to trade - and VERY little else. Lets get back to being a production based economy instead of a service based economy & reestablish a good portion of our own self-sufficiency. And lets police ourselves. Let the world do 100% without any American involvement whatsoever.

    No more troops on foreign soil to "flex our military might" - even in countries where young women are stoned to death in public for the heinous crime of attending school. Instead, lets police ourselves by using those same troops who are overseas to secure our borders. Maybe we could even police our own immigration while we're at it.

    No more "Evil America" involving itself in other nations right to self-determination with that humanitarian aid which those nations scream always come with strings attached. Let African nations commiting genocide practice the law of the jungle - only the strong survive. Lets take all that humanitarian aid and police ourselves. Who knows? Maybe we could eradicate our own hunger and homelessness problem. Our financial crisis would certainly be eased by not giving hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to the UN when 80% of the member nations contribute NOTHING - no funds, no humanitarian aid, no troops to prevent said genocide.

    So please, educate me. What far worse fate is there down the line than American children growing up without a parent because America's young men & women in uniform are dying every day in foreign lands trying to protect people who live under brutal regimes when most of those people see nothing wrong with the way they live? They call America brutal and barbaric then turn around and throw acid in the faces of their young women for the heinous crime of walking out of their homes without a male escort.

    What far worse fate is there than American citizens starve homeless in the streets while use our tax dollars to help them at the 2% level - yet spend the hundreds of millions of dollars to feed, clothe, house & educate peoples in foreign nations.

    So as I said, Im with you - because you're right. Lets quit sticking our bombastic and bullying noses in other peoples issues.

    Lets leave the Kuwaits of the world to be crushed and oppressed by the Iraqs of the world for having committed the heinous atrocity of daring to have a higher GNP than their neighbors.

    Lets leave the Somalias of the world to starve in the streets instead of bullying them into policy changes in the guise of humanitarian aid.

    Lets leave the Serbias and Croatias of the world to commit genocide against each other and nearly drag the entire continent of Europe down with them.

    Speaking of genocide, lets leave the Turkeys and Iraqs of the world to destroy an entire race of people like the Kurds rather than let them have enough land to establish their own nation and be able to police THEMSELVES and practice a little self determination instead of just slaughtering them.

    And for all these horrible transgressions, American troops die and American debt grows at an astronomical rate. Thanks for warning us that Doomsday is coming. Nobody else noticed for all these years.

    The Sniper pretty much hammerd that one. I was refusing to get drawn in even after that ridiculous statement by the phobic one.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm talking about the last forty years, and not trying to bait anyone. Go out into the world, I have, find out what they think. You'd be surprised, I was.
    just to clarify my position, I deny none of what you've said. No country has ever been as generous, stood up for right, helped as many people, as we have. And I CAN say WE, myself and my family have paid the price for that. Consider Germany for a moment, though. Art, music, science, and culture. It was the flower of the west, until forces from within turned it into the monster that tried to eat the world, twice. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, a rot from within, that turns the greatest nation the world has ever seen, into the greatest monster.
    Look back at my original statement, I said that there would be those who didn't understand me. Sniper, Gypsy, I simply fear what has happened before, because it CAN happen to us, all it takes is a too much pride, too much ignorance, and an economic collapse, and we'll become what Hitler aspired to. THAT is the doom I fear. Hopefully, it remains only a fear, but we'll not stop it by keeping our eyes closed and shouting "we're number one", fiddling while the economy burns, and American companies commit crimes abroad, under our protection.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Amos Umwhat:
    I'm talking about the last forty years, and not trying to bait anyone. Go out into the world, I have, find out what they think. You'd be surprised, I was.
    just to clarify my position, I deny none of what you've said. No country has ever been as generous, stood up for right, helped as many people, as we have. And I CAN say WE, myself and my family have paid the price for that. Consider Germany for a moment, though. Art, music, science, and culture. It was the flower of the west, until forces from within turned it into the monster that tried to eat the world, twice. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, a rot from within, that turns the greatest nation the world has ever seen, into the greatest monster.
    Look back at my original statement, I said that there would be those who didn't understand me. Sniper, Gypsy, I simply fear what has happened before, because it CAN happen to us, all it takes is a too much pride, too much ignorance, and an economic collapse, and we'll become what Hitler aspired to. THAT is the doom I fear. Hopefully, it remains only a fear, but we'll not stop it by keeping our eyes closed and shouting "we're number one", fiddling while the economy burns, and American companies commit crimes abroad, under our protection.
    Well said as usual Amos Umwhat. I totally respect the large world view you hold.

    It is interesting to note that everything you and Sniper said were true. That is the thing about situations like this. Two very opposite views of the same situation can both be totally true. There is no contradiction there. This is why I decided to drop out of the political threads. All the information quoted may have been true... but it did nothing to bring about concensus on any issue, same here.

    While I KNOW that there are those with strong feelings of Patriotism here and that is something which is very important and proper. However when "blind" Patiotism leads to situations where you feel you must defend your country no matter what... it is time for a re-think.

    Surely if one can spot improprieties in other counries or regions around the world, you can spot them at home too without being called a traitor, or having your patriotism questioned? Were the people responsible for the Civil war in your country traitors, or were they patriots who acted on strongly held feelings of what was right and wrong?

    Again I come back to labels, and the way we apply them to try to stiffle peoples' opinions. The guy screaming from the hilltop that the whole system is **** up and is not working, could be the most patriotic person you will ever meet. Afterall, those strong feelings are what caused him to speak out in the first place. Just something to think about.

    This was NOT a comment about the Snipers comments, just an observation of some of Amos Umwhat's comments, and the way comments like this have been responded to in the past. There are two sides to EVERY story, and it is irresponsible to only listen to, or consider the side you automatically have a tendancy to want to believe. Who is the final say in what makes a person a traitor or a patriot?
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,799 ✭✭✭
    +1 and 2 Amos-----well said. And to piggyback a bit here-----the most red, white, and blue in your wardrobe or flags in your yard do not make you the most patriotic. Nor does saying some things about the nation you hate and wish were totally different make you less of one. It is too often the idea, and plays to the simple it seems, that having a flag pin on your jacket and saying God Bless America the most while playing Lee Greenwood tunes makes you more of an American than the guy who chooses not to fly a flag made in China in his yard. If you dont hold yourself to certain standards, you will fail your your lack of them.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    +1 to Sniper; couldn't have said it better myself
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    the term "Necessary Evil" fits well in this discussion. do we like thinking about negative stuff in the world, no. no one likes negative thoughts. no one goes to sleep at night thinking about the fact that many countries would love to see us crushed and broken and would harm our innocent citizens to do so. imagine your children watching you get shot and then forced in to slavery. this happens in other countries. don't forget it.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    dennisking:
    the term "Necessary Evil" fits well in this discussion. do we like thinking about negative stuff in the world, no. no one likes negative thoughts. no one goes to sleep at night thinking about the fact that many countries would love to see us crushed and broken and would harm our innocent citizens to do so. imagine your children watching you get shot and then forced in to slavery. this happens in other countries. don't forget it.
    Exactly! and I don't want to see us doing the crushing and enslaving, therefore, we need to police our own. This was the point! Snipers reply never addressed any of the issues brought up by Squirrel or myself, simply assumed that if one questions American actions, one must subscribe to a certain set of beliefs, whether there's any evidence of that or not. It is positively Pavlovian response, programmed by interests that do not wish the public to engage in ever questioning their motives.
    A friend of mine went to Vietnam, recently. The first time he was there was as a medic. We were told then that we needed to save the world from the evils represented by the North Vietnamese and their struggle to gain power. All kinds of horrible things would ensue, should they overthrow our friends, the corrupt South Vietnamese government. What he found was a thriving and prosperous population, peaceful, productive. By the way, they love us! for the good things that we still represent, which is the part of Sniper's opinion that I do believe in.
    On the other hand, some things that were said go a long way toward making my points, and those that Squirrel was making. "Secure our borders" has become a popular theme. A wall is a wall on both sides of the wall. My unit took the "border tour" of the wall between East and West Germany. Our guide dramatically pointed out that "They shoot people trying to escape to freedom over that wall". I asked if we shot people heading east over the wall. Never got an answer. I was asked if I wanted to be communist? was I a sympathizer? would I like living in a Gulag? All nonsense questions, of course I wasn't any of those things, but I still wonder if we shot people headed east. Why they would? Beats me, but if they want to, I think their freedom is just as important as anyone elses. (within bounds of reason, which should go without saying, but all too often needs to be said)
    This "wall is a wall both ways" idea is demonstrative, to me anyway, of the difference between real conservatives like Ronald Reagan, who understood this, and todays neo-cons who are clammoring for a wall between us and the world. The Communists told the people on their side of the wall that it was there to "secure their borders" against those who were jealous of the advantages of the workers paradise. The Brown Shirts and National Socialists in Germany told their people that the problems were all caused by all of these illegal immigrants (Jews and Gypsys), and by the moral decline evidenced by tolerance of homosexuality and other signs of moral decay. Sound familiar to anyone? Maybe not, maybe I just worry too much.
    On a lighter note, I have to laugh at myself a little, because when I re-read my doomsday comments above I could almost hear some baritone voice from the History channel in the background. Don't mean to be so dark, but when Squirrel points out a crime, and I say that we need to hold such criminals accountable, rather than overlooking their crimes because they're well connected to American business interests, I would ask that we think twice before assuming that it is Squirrel or myself who are attacking American values. Think about it.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    dennisking:
    the term "Necessary Evil" fits well in this discussion. do we like thinking about negative stuff in the world, no. no one likes negative thoughts. no one goes to sleep at night thinking about the fact that many countries would love to see us crushed and broken and would harm our innocent citizens to do so. imagine your children watching you get shot and then forced in to slavery. this happens in other countries. don't forget it.
    Here is an example of another statement that while I agree holds some truth, it seems to be saying that our system is still better then thiers so why are we complaining. I could be wrong about that but, to me, that is what it says.

    My response would be that while that may be true, why should that stop people in N. America to want something better, even of our own systems?

    There is also an issue of setting an example. We in the "free world" have lost an awful lot of credibility in the rest of the world. Used to be we aspired to a higher standard so as to set an example. Now, more and more we seem to be lowering our standards to what we percieve the "enemys" standards are. While there are people who can rationalize this (you can understand their positions)... that doesn't make it right.
  • The SniperThe Sniper Posts: 3,910
    Ah, where to start. LOL I expect some will think Ive gone bipolar when they read this, and thats OK.

    Amos Umwhat:
    I'm talking about the last forty years, and not trying to bait anyone. Go out into the world, I have, find out what they think. You'd be surprised, I was.


    I've been all over the globe, more times than I wished to, and met people from all over. Feasted with Turks. Drank with Brits (BIG fun! BIGGER hangover! LOL). Built buildings side by side with Koreans. Shared champagne with Russians (Remember them? The "Red Menace"? Some of the best, happiest, most grounded people you will ever meet, bar none). Had pints with the Scots. Been hugged by Kuwaitis while they cried and thanked me & America for saving them - ten years after we did it. Held the hand of Afghani civilians while American doctors took bullets out of them & tried to save their lives when their own people attacked them for accepting American aid.

    Got to know a lot of these people pretty well. I think Ive got a pretty good handle on what they think. Surprise doesnt cover it. I think every American citizen should travel abroad and see what the rest of the world is like. I dont believe one can truly appreciate the United States until you do.

    Go out into the world? Ive seen enough to have an opinion I think.

    laker1963:
    It is interesting to note that everything you and Sniper said were true. That is the thing about situations like this. Two very opposite views of the same situation can both be totally true. There is no contradiction there.


    Well said laker. I think Amos & I share a lot of the same views on many things. We both love our country. We are both gravely concerned about it. We both believe we need to take a long, hard, honest look at where we're at & where we're going. And in an odd sort of way, I think we sort of (???) agree about American involvement in the world at large.

    But statements like this one....

    Amos Umwhat:
    As if our own bombastic and bullying foreign policy weren't enough to alienate the rest of the world.


    ... REEEEEEAAAAALLLLLLY torque me off. If you're talking about foreign diplomacy, take a look at the $$$ numbers where the UN & NATO are concerned and tell me where they would be if not for America's contributions. If you're talking about military campaigns, forgive me for my bluntness & non-PC phrasing as its late here, but whose *** did we kick over the last 40 years you mentioned that didnt NEED their ***'s kicked due to their own policies, aggression or actions?

    Even at our worst during foreign relations (MY OPINION ONLY), when GW Bush basically told the world "Here's what we're going to do to ensure the security of our nation. If you're with us, we want you with us. If you're not with us, fine - we will do it ourselves if need be." I ask - is that bullying and bombast, or is that a nation standing on its own to defend itself?

    Speaking of statements that get me torqued off...

    laker1963:
    Amos Umwhat:
    I'm talking about the last forty years, and not trying to bait anyone. Go out into the world, I have, find out what they think. You'd be surprised, I was.
    just to clarify my position, I deny none of what you've said. No country has ever been as generous, stood up for right, helped as many people, as we have. And I CAN say WE, myself and my family have paid the price for that. Consider Germany for a moment, though. Art, music, science, and culture. It was the flower of the west, until forces from within turned it into the monster that tried to eat the world, twice. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, a rot from within, that turns the greatest nation the world has ever seen, into the greatest monster.
    Look back at my original statement, I said that there would be those who didn't understand me. Sniper, Gypsy, I simply fear what has happened before, because it CAN happen to us, all it takes is a too much pride, too much ignorance, and an economic collapse, and we'll become what Hitler aspired to. THAT is the doom I fear. Hopefully, it remains only a fear, but we'll not stop it by keeping our eyes closed and shouting "we're number one", fiddling while the economy burns, and American companies commit crimes abroad, under our protection.
    Well said as usual Amos Umwhat. I totally respect the large world view you hold.


    Someone compares America and American foreign policy to **** Germany, and you say well said and you totally respect the large world view they hold?

    Please remind me how many billions in foreign humanitarian aid **** Germany was responsible for.

    Please remind me how many troops **** Germany committed to multinational peacekeeping efforts such as feeding Somalia and stopping the genocide in the former Yugoslavia.

    Absolutely enraging comments. ABSOLUTELY enraging. And yet when people become enraged by them, they are accused of being ultra-patriots or ultraconservatives or right-wing-nutjobs or whatever the term du jour is this week.

    How dare you? I absolutely positively 100% agree that the old saying is true - those who dont know their history are doomed to repeat it. However, those who dont correctly understand history, or worse attempt to warp it to make a point, are ten times as dangerous.

    Amos Umwhat:
    No country has ever been as generous, stood up for right, helped as many people, as we have. And I CAN say WE, myself and my family have paid the price for that.


    Not sure what you meant on this one Amos. If you meant that you & your ancestors have served in the military or some other capacity, I certainly thank you for your sacrifice and service, as I believe all Americans would or at least should.

    If you meant this in socioeconomic terms, then again you are 110% right. Every single American citizen has. Someone on this thread talked about terms such as "secure our borders" being thrown around, Ive got another one for you - "economic stimulus". Ive got an idea for economic stimulus, and I think you might like it. Im not up on the numbers, but I would be willing to bet that if we 1) took the billions we give to the UN every year, add to it the billions in foreign humanitarian aid we pay out every year, and HELL! just to be REALLY radical we take the billions in our military budget down to just what is needed to effectively secure our borders...

    ...roll all that together....

    ... and distribute it evenly to each and every American citizen for just ONE YEAR, we could probably pay off the mortgage, pay for the college education of every one of their children, and probably pay off their credit card debt. I dont think too many Americans would turn their noses up at that! And rightly so.

    Thats ONE YEAR Im talking about. If we did it for two or three more years, we may be able to actually pay down (or off!) our crushing national debt and return this nation to financial solvency. Does that sound good to anyone out there?

    Or do we, as the most powerful nation in the world, hold a moral obligation to think of more than ourselves and help the rest of the world? To do the things we always have on the world stage - feed the masses, lift up the downtrodden, stand up for and defend the oppressed and persecuted no matter their race, creed or religion?

    I believed it once.

    No more.

    Foreign nations decry our national policy and our interference in international affairs and call us oppressive. Our own citizenry calls our foreign policy bullying and bombastic and worse. Citizens worry that our own society crumbles to the point that we are somehow in danger of becoming the Fourth Reich.

    This is our reward for carrying the world on our backs to the detriment of our own citizens? Is it worth one more American dollar?

    I say no. Not one more single cent. Let the world that hates our interference do without it.

    This is our reward for defending the world against brutal oppression and tyrannical regimes? Is it worth the life of one more American serviceman (or servicewoman)?

    I say no. Not one more single American life lost for a world stage who simply pisses on the sacrifice.

    Christ himself help me, but I say no. Let's do exactly what Amos and Laker have suggested here, and Im not being a wise-ass or sarcastic at all when I say that. Lets take our money and our military might and everything else we contribute to the world who largely detests us for it, pull it all back and work on our own issues. Get our own house in order. Take care of our own citizens.

    Amos Umwhat:
    Go out into the world, I have, find out what they think. You'd be surprised, I was.


    After five or ten years of doing without American interference and bullying and bombastic policies, let's again go out into the world and find out what they think. They might be surprised.

    IF there's any world left to go out into. IF it hasnt simply torn itself apart.

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Wow. Where to begin. Sniper your post was so long that I have not quoted it. I think you might want to re-read a few things. First Amos Umwhat did not compare the US presently with **** Germany. He used **** Germany as an example of what can happen to a nation who loses sight of it true goals. I think you took his statement other then he intended, or certainly different then I took it to mean. Your swipe at my comments to Amos were therefore misguided in my opinion, but hey, that's OK, I'm a big boy, I can take it, won't be the first time here.

    You later refer to all of the sacrifice that America has been making over the years. Well said, and not to be contested, EXCEPT...You make it sound like the US is alone in this fight, or that they are the only country who has had thier sons and daughters killed for this cause. Well SHAME on YOU. Cause we in Canada have lost a very comparable number of our soldiers lives in Afghanistan when you view the numbers on a per capita basis. Here again is a case where you make a statement which is in itself true, but is certainly NOT the whole truth. SO please, brother, before you make such broad statements, check your own facts. The US is not, and has not been alone in this fight. There are many NATO countries doing their part. Does the USA carry the brunt of the load? YUP. Would they as a country or a military except this situation any other way HE LL NO !!! And you know that. So please at least tell it like it is when speaking of these things, or maybe look into it a little deeper before you make statements that are absolutely enraging .
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    I love The Sniper! BTW, I don't think those who question what we do are less patriotic. Many of us are on the hilltop screaming as loud as we can that things are not right in this country right now.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    fla-gypsy:
    I love The Sniper! BTW, I don't think those who question what we do are less patriotic. Many of us are on the hilltop screaming as loud as we can that things are not right in this country right now.
    Thanks for that Gypsy. What exactly are you talking about when you say you love the Sniper? You love his contribution to this thread? You love his ideas? You love the way he has uncharacteristically stated some of his opinions?

    I always enjoy talking with the Sniper too. He always has something to add to the conversation. He doesn't just sit on the sidelines throwing in the odd "way to go" or whatever like a kid whatching a school yard fight.

    BTW that patriotic comment was not intended for you. Up until now you have only made a couple of comments in support of Sniper (way to go), it was intended for Sniper as he has been carrying on this conversation. I do however agree with you 100% about Patriotism and I think you can agree when I say I have NEVER questioned anybody's Patiotism... you ?
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sniper, hmm, where to begin? Let me try (again) to point out that what I said was a bit melodramatic, I really did have to laugh at myself.
    First, the sticking point. Like that Border Tour guide, I still don't know your opinion about the subject Squirrel brought up. I stand by my opinion that we cannot tolerate criminal behavior, we can't look away, our honor and integrity is at stake.
    Second, you and I are probably in agreement on about 99% of everything we've talked about here. I owe an apology, or at least an explanation on a couple of issues. Often, I've only got a minute or two to look at the forum, and "bullying and bombastic", coming from someone else, probably would have affected me in much the same way it did you. I say it, though, because I know it is an opinion widely held by those who resent us, and we don't need to give them any more fodder for their propaganda mills.
    I apologize for jumping to some conclusions about you, as you seemed to do about me. You are correct about the "we" comment, I come from a military background, many family members and friends involved in all the wars since the Civil War. What gets me, and may bother you, as well, since we seem to have similar experience, is when people are forever saying "We need to kick their ass...etc." and they never have any skin in the game. eg: Recently the father of a young man who is one of my son's best friends stopped by to encourage me to vote for the candidate of his choice. This guy is always involved in politics, as is his family, lots of support our troops stickers and hawkish talk. None of them have served, and when my son was enlisting, and his son was also planning to, his advice to his son was: "No, son, that's not for you. You need to stay here and make money, start a family. That's for poor kids. There's plenty of kids in the ghetto who can go to war, let (my son) go and get killed if he wants to, but you have better things to do." My son left some body parts in Afghanistan. This guy wants me to respect his political opinions. I don't think so.
    Laker nailed it on my remarks concerning **** Germany. I don't know if you glossed over it, or if I just didn't put it well, but you definetly missed the point. Also, during the **** years, Germans were constantly being told that Germany had given so much, and the world appreciated it so little. Anyone who questioned what was going on was shouted down, or laughed out. My first wife's mother was German, spent her teen years in a Hitler Youth Camp, for her own safety. Her uncle was SS. Very supportive, until he got reassigned. Came home, very quiet, without being specific told his family that things were not as they seemed, now he questioned. Then he went back to his assignment, and shortly later the family was informed that "the pressure of his job had been too much and he commited suicide. The Reich thanks you for his service." Turning a blind eye worries me.
    I've traveled as a soldier, and as a civilian. You get different viewpoints. Like yourself, I've been thanked by many who truly appreciate what we've done for the world. My neighbors, in Germany, used to bring me flowers and dinner, etc., whenever there was a local demonstration against the U.S. She was Czech, escaped the Russians (who I still don't trust), he had been a tanker on the Russian front, lost some toes to frostbite, and those two made me feel truly blessed and appreciated.
    As for the rest, we agree. We've carried a heavy load for a long time. Without us, the world would probably be a much worse place. We can't keep on the way we have. I'd like to see us do it differently. More peaceful aid, less military intervention.
    Lastly, why did "bullying and bombastic" come out of my mind in the first place? Probably because I'd just finished an article about Hamid Karzai and the recent elections. We have a history of promoting democracy, until we don't like the outcome, then we forcibly create the government we want, who will deal with us on our terms, and permit whatever horrible behavior they exhibit, in complete opposition of what we the American people believe in. We're doing it again! It drives me nuts. We had a great relationship with Iran, many years ago, and encouraged democracy. Then they elected people we didn't like, so we helped put the Shah back in. We created (or aided in the creation of ) Saddam Hussein, and propped him up for far too long. We selected, or helped in the selection of, the royal family in Saudi Arabia, and assisted them in every way to maintain power. Was it the best choice?
    At any rate, we need to focus inward, put ourselves back together, get back to the ideals originally set forth by our founding fathers, and always always always question authority. We must keep our government, and our other powerful interests, in check, and in tune with freedom and justice for all.
    To anyone who made it through this whole post, thanks for listening. :)
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    laker1963:
    fla-gypsy:
    I love The Sniper! BTW, I don't think those who question what we do are less patriotic. Many of us are on the hilltop screaming as loud as we can that things are not right in this country right now.
    Thanks for that Gypsy. What exactly are you talking about when you say you love the Sniper? You love his contribution to this thread? You love his ideas? You love the way he has uncharacteristically stated some of his opinions?

    I always enjoy talking with the Sniper too. He always has something to add to the conversation. He doesn't just sit on the sidelines throwing in the odd "way to go" or whatever like a kid whatching a school yard fight.

    BTW that patriotic comment was not intended for you. Up until now you have only made a couple of comments in support of Sniper (way to go), it was intended for Sniper as he has been carrying on this conversation. I do however agree with you 100% about Patriotism and I think you can agree when I say I have NEVER questioned anybody's Patiotism... you ?


    I meant I loved his outlook on history and thought it was dead on target (no pun intended) so both, his contribution to this thread and his comments are relevant and pertinent.

    As for sitting on the sidelines, I know you were not referring to me as I have weighed in to these discussions many times and expressed my views even if they were not popular or accepted.

    I have not questioned anyone's patriotism even though I disagree with their political viiews about how this nation should administer it's foreign policy, domestic policy, or conduct it's military campaigns. When it degenerates into "everything about our nation is evil" comments then I will take exception to those persons and call it what it is. We have a military and civil justice system that is tasked with rooting out the offenders and I am content to let them do just that. The squirrels contention that even murder is OK under either scenario is over the top and absolutely wrong IMO.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    fla-gypsy:
    laker1963:
    fla-gypsy:
    I love The Sniper! BTW, I don't think those who question what we do are less patriotic. Many of us are on the hilltop screaming as loud as we can that things are not right in this country right now.
    Thanks for that Gypsy. What exactly are you talking about when you say you love the Sniper? You love his contribution to this thread? You love his ideas? You love the way he has uncharacteristically stated some of his opinions?

    I always enjoy talking with the Sniper too. He always has something to add to the conversation. He doesn't just sit on the sidelines throwing in the odd "way to go" or whatever like a kid whatching a school yard fight.

    BTW that patriotic comment was not intended for you. Up until now you have only made a couple of comments in support of Sniper (way to go), it was intended for Sniper as he has been carrying on this conversation. I do however agree with you 100% about Patriotism and I think you can agree when I say I have NEVER questioned anybody's Patiotism... you ?


    I meant I loved his outlook on history and thought it was dead on target (no pun intended) so both, his contribution to this thread and his comments are relevant and pertinent.

    As for sitting on the sidelines, I know you were not referring to me as I have weighed in to these discussions many times and expressed my views even if they were not popular or accepted.

    I have not questioned anyone's patriotism even though I disagree with their political viiews about how this nation should administer it's foreign policy, domestic policy, or conduct it's military campaigns. When it degenerates into "everything about our nation is evil" comments then I will take exception to those persons and call it what it is. We have a military and civil justice system that is tasked with rooting out the offenders and I am content to let them do just that. The squirrels contention that even murder is OK under either scenario is over the top and absolutely wrong IMO.
    Agree 100%. I really don't think Pheebs was saing it was OK. He was being very sarcastic. You have t admit there was, and to a lesser extent still is a problem with these private security firms. I wonder more about the future and what happens when anyone who can afford a private security firm to take care of them will have one. How will this be any different from the tribal warlords in the african nations who do the same thing? I have never quite understood the legitimacy of these firms. Where do they get there autourity from, and what are the charges (if any) if they kill someone in the course of their duty's? Are they protected from prosecution because they have some training? There are some serious questions that need to be answered in regard to these companies. imo

    Just a last minute thing. I remember reading this morning that Canada has employed a private security company at one of their forward operatinh bases. This has been unknown to anyone in Canada up until now. Should be interesting to see what kind of reaction it stirs up.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Y'know, when I think about it, maybe private security firms are the way to go. I mean, historically, whenever Gigantico Corporation sees that it's asset is in a sling, it's the taxpayer that funds the effort and gives up their life to protect their interest. Hmm, something to think about.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Amos Umwhat:
    Y'know, when I think about it, maybe private security firms are the way to go. I mean, historically, whenever Gigantico Corporation sees that it's asset is in a sling, it's the taxpayer that funds the effort and gives up their life to protect their interest. Hmm, something to think about.
    What about accountability? Who would oversee them? Corporations? People rich enough to have them employed for protection? I don't think people respond well to non governmental agency's which are given too much power. Would this represent too much power? Would this be a foreign policy or domestic, or both? If it works well outside of the country is it one step away from being implemented domestically as well? Scares me, frankly.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    Amos Umwhat:
    Y'know, when I think about it, maybe private security firms are the way to go. I mean, historically, whenever Gigantico Corporation sees that it's asset is in a sling, it's the taxpayer that funds the effort and gives up their life to protect their interest. Hmm, something to think about.
    What about accountability? Who would oversee them? Corporations? People rich enough to have them employed for protection? I don't think people respond well to non governmental agency's which are given too much power. Would this represent too much power? Would this be a foreign policy or domestic, or both? If it works well outside of the country is it one step away from being implemented domestically as well? Scares me, frankly.
    Good questions all. My comment was meant rather as tongue in cheek, although, that part about the taxpayers getting stuck with the burden and the bills for supporting corporate interests is true.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Amos Umwhat:
    laker1963:
    Amos Umwhat:
    Y'know, when I think about it, maybe private security firms are the way to go. I mean, historically, whenever Gigantico Corporation sees that it's asset is in a sling, it's the taxpayer that funds the effort and gives up their life to protect their interest. Hmm, something to think about.
    What about accountability? Who would oversee them? Corporations? People rich enough to have them employed for protection? I don't think people respond well to non governmental agency's which are given too much power. Would this represent too much power? Would this be a foreign policy or domestic, or both? If it works well outside of the country is it one step away from being implemented domestically as well? Scares me, frankly.
    Good questions all. My comment was meant rather as tongue in cheek, although, that part about the taxpayers getting stuck with the burden and the bills for supporting corporate interests is true.
    Oh man, I am glad to read this. I thought one of us had a short circuit. I was hoping it wasn't me. LMAO
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