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Another Example of Why the US is losing...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/dell-to-spend-106-billion-on-china-expansion-plans-20100917-15gg7.html

Seems to be the norm anymore. Large investments in overseas expansion for US based companies. Been happening for years. Thanks to Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush. And it seems at least for the short term that Obama will put his name on the list of presidents who have done nothing to get manufacturing back in the US. Though there was a bill put forth before October in congress that would take the tax incentive from business's to out-source and give it to companies to build here but it was blocked by the GOP and some dems. It is fundamentally destroying this country.

Comments

  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that.

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.

    You are absolutely correct, even if it is not comprehended by some. We are the ones who wish to have cheaper goods. It is the reason that this type of commerce keeps leaving. If I was the owner of a company and I could produce my product cheaper somewhere else and in turn sell it cheaper to keep demand up I would jump on it in a second.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 5,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    fla-gypsy:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that.

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.

    You are absolutely correct, even if it is not comprehended by some. We are the ones who wish to have cheaper goods. It is the reason that this type of commerce keeps leaving. If I was the owner of a company and I could produce my product cheaper somewhere else and in turn sell it cheaper to keep demand up I would jump on it in a second.
    Curious, is it possible that American workers need that much money because of our tax structure?
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 5,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    now, how do I get the italic to go away? oh, good, it doesn't carry over. I only wanted to italicize need, though, and maybe because
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    You hit the nail on the head with this one. The fact that our minimum wage is $7.25/hr and China can pay next to nothing for labor is the primary reason the jobs are going overseas. The institution of the minimum wage has done more to drive us out of the competitive manufacturing market than any tax policy ever could. Yet the democrats still campaign on raising the minimum wage every chance they get and Unions demand higher and higher wages for people all over. I've told the story before about the company my ex used to work for. The union demanded the guy that emptied the trash cans and cleaned the bathrooms on the weekends be paid $15/hr for a minimum of 16 hours a week. He typically got his entire job done in about 6 hours... Of course this factory is no longer in operation. These types of things have taken manufacturing jobs over seas and no tax policy will bring most of them back.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.
    Technically, you're somewhat right - if the Gov't passes enough laws and lavishes enough subsidies on corporations, they can keep the jobs in the US. But then you gotta ask yourself - how much Gov't are you willing to accept? How much corporate welfare do you see as acceptable? If it costs $50,000/yr to employ an American to do job X, and a Chinese does the same job for $3,000/yr, are you willing to have the US Gov't offer that corporation $47,000 of welfare per year? Are you willing to have your tax dollars be given to GE, GM, Chevrolet and other billion dollar corporations?

    Also, manufacturing is only part of what makes a nation strong - by and large, it's the type of work that's done. Example: Which pays more - a job assembling headlights, or a job researching drugs? Of course it's the latter - why? Because it requires more of an education.

    True story - after WWII, an American diplomat was visiting the Japanese embassy, and he was talking to the premier. He recommended that, for Japan to pull itself out of debt, that the Japanese economy produce table napkins, plastic drink umbrellas, and other cheap things that can be easily mass-produced with cheap labor. Did the Japanese take this advice? No - they started researching electronics, and high-technology - and today the tiny island nation is the world's third largest economy.

    My poing: manufacturing of cheap goods is a dead end - it has limits, and the workers are paid *** for wages; while manufacturing of high technology pays better wages. If you want manufacturing in the US, it can't be the stuff we've been doing for so long - steel, tires, etc - they're all cheaper to make in China. If you're dead-set on manufacturing in the US, it's gonna require a smarter worker, one who can handle cutting-edge technology, because the old manufacturing jobs just aren't coming back
    Amos Umwhat:
    Curious, is it possible that American workers need that much money because of our tax structure?
    If you wanna get into it, it's partly tax structure, and partly economies of scale. On the one hand, people who earn below ~ $40,000 typically pay zero taxes, but then again, it costs a good bit to live in the USA. A Mexican can get a haircut for $0.25; and American can't get a haircut for less than $10. So it's really a bit of both.

    Oh, and if you wanna end the italics, just put those pointy brackets around "/i"
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.
    You also forget to take into account what legislation like that would do to the cost of goods sold here in the U.S. I know it sounds good to force all those evil corporations to bring their businesses back here, but the cost of pretty much every good and service would sky rocket. Wages would not be increased for factory workers, more workers might be hired, but at the same, or more realistically, lower wages. How you see this as a way to strengthen our economy is beyond me. Is your solution for the government to come in and force companies to pay even higher wages?
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.


    Your idea would only create hyper-inflation, not jobs. You say we are a 3rd world country in some ways already, please explain that. The Govt has no, and should not have any say in how a private company orders it's priorities outside safety and health regs and to protect the workers and criminal activity. The power to regulate is limited by the US Constitution and rightly so. Our nation's commerce is built on the idea of private ownership. Your economic ideas are interesting albeit not capitalist at all, I will have to dig up my books on economies to see where that would fit.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.
    You also forget to take into account what legislation like that would do to the cost of goods sold here in the U.S. I know it sounds good to force all those evil corporations to bring their businesses back here, but the cost of pretty much every good and service would sky rocket. Wages would not be increased for factory workers, more workers might be hired, but at the same, or more realistically, lower wages. How you see this as a way to strengthen our economy is beyond me. Is your solution for the government to come in and force companies to pay even higher wages?
    Well one of the reasons for pushing American Jobs overseas was to decrease costs, however it only did it for the company. I see TV's about the same price as they were back in the day - however there are many more varieties. I see cars that are built here vs built overseas about the same. I see most items that were made here about the same price they were back in the day. Sure some things are cheaper because people are being made to work in factories, treated horribly, and have no benefits. Your argument is on the behalf of a company and what they make. My view is how it impacts our country, what the lives of the workers are like and whether or not they can afford the very products. Also safety and safety of the product. Over the last decade alone there has been many incidents of safety violations from overseas that would have never been (well hopefully given how regulators have been gutted) able to pass due to laws. There are many companies that build things in this company and make profits. However they don't make obscene profits. The trade off? Well American workers, standards being followed and an influx in the economy.

    Welfare was mentioned and I see it is "welfare" when I talk about incentives to make a "build" american initiative but it's okay when the same is used for private industry to take it overseas. Seems to be the norm. While it be anything private, but when govt is mentioned or anything to keep something in this country welfare is a bad word.

    Puro, your a cop right? Now what if you were told you could do whatever you wanted to do to get a perp? Would you be respectful, use restraint, maybe even think twice about force? probably not. Even if you were never told it, it was never mentioned. But no, you have rules and laws to follow as well. The same thing is with business. Going back to the early teens of the 20th century, even before that business has never had a good sense of guidance, only when it came to profits. Govt is there to ensure that the people are protected and have some representation. It's govt's job to look out for the common wealth. Business is there to make money. People, at least to me, are worth much more.

    I can't be certain you feel this way, but if you do think that govt is so bad that it should keep out of private industry than how do you think black people were able to work? How were people able to get a safe work environment (something china doesn't offer)? How were people able to get fair treatment? How did people get a full work week? Well that is all due to govt impeding into the private sector. You knock the min. wage but you may not know this but for someone making the federal min wage (states can differ) that person would be below the poverty level. Now I know your a cop and probably make decent money (at least here in oregon) now how would you like making a bit uner 12,000? How could you live? Maybe you have kids, and get a couple hundred bucks a month extra? That's if you can as you have kids and babysitters are so expensive? I mean you can knock the min wage but it is something, just something for people. And you know what? More and more people are getting min wage jobs. Is it there fault? maybe, but I'm sure many take what they can get.

    I know you fight me on everything, as you are a republican and I lean more libreral. However what does the GOP do for us, me, you, the commons. What plans and what bills have they passed that has made life easier or better for us? they've already hampered most effort to get our country out of the gutter. They back BP and say the white house is shaking them down. The stopped heavy restrictions for wall street, they stood in the way of benefits for people being unemployed. They call healthcare reform socialism when it's not. That bill, all it did was put small restrictions on "private" insurers to not boot people for being sick, having a condition in the past, they must use 85 percent of premium money go to actual care. Any real changes that would have really changed anything were tossed as the GOP wouldn't budge and some wanna-be dems were weak kneed. I dunno, that's spilt milk.

    Basically I don't see many members of congress mentioning manufacturing being brought back to America on the GOP side, oh yeah because non do. On the Dem's side, not all but many. Pelosi's mentioned it and fought for it. I know obama has. There are a lot of technologies out there that can be used to build our base back. However if the GOP keeps getting what they want and keeping the US from competing than our short lived presence in the world will dissipate. hell even on the dem side people are retarded on the issue. China/Germany/ and other countries are jumping on new tech to fuel the future and we are still suck on coal, gas, and oil. WTF? why? Because huge industries make money off of it and don't want to lose it. However what baffles me is that why do these same companies not do both? They'd make even more money. I dunno.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    fla-gypsy:
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.


    Your idea would only create hyper-inflation, not jobs. You say we are a 3rd world country in some ways already, please explain that. The Govt has no, and should not have any say in how a private company orders it's priorities outside safety and health regs and to protect the workers and criminal activity. The power to regulate is limited by the US Constitution and rightly so. Our nation's commerce is built on the idea of private ownership. Your economic ideas are interesting albeit not capitalist at all, I will have to dig up my books on economies to see where that would fit.
    Well I can post some links. Actually what we have now is not capitalism. We have a system that let's people with small business's fall, people lose their homes, but will give tax payer money to huge multinational companies. You see, you fail to see that the govt is here to provide the commons with representation. Letting private industry run rapid is exactly what has happened over the bush years, and was started in the 70's and continued to even now. Sure some things have been done but not anything close to keeping our country from going down the same road once again.
    Hyper inflation? I doubt it. business's would have to maybe understand they can't pay ceo's mega millions and their workers less then live able wages. You seem to be all about protecting the business but when it comes to protected this country/people/family's you could care less. One thing you should know, we elect people in govt, we have no say in private industry. those people who we elect run the govt therefore what kind of govt we have is soley our fault. So when you voted for bush in 2000, and 2004 you voted for the kind of govt we all had. You were part of the hell we all endured. when people vote for these nutjobs that are the teabaggers running in races all around the country that want to do away with medicare, public school, privatize SS, do away with the 14th amendment, handcuff people for inquiring about something they said, avoid interviews, take millions from private industries who are trying to hurt the citizens of this country, oh the list goes on and on.
    Also the power to regulate is not limited in the constitution. Where is that? We do not have a capitalistic society. The free market does not exist. Fascism is more what comes to mind, although maybe some sort of hybrid of it. Look at the money that has flooded this election cycle. The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind. Money seems to run our politics and is on steroids.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    fla-gypsy:
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.


    Your idea would only create hyper-inflation, not jobs. You say we are a 3rd world country in some ways already, please explain that. The Govt has no, and should not have any say in how a private company orders it's priorities outside safety and health regs and to protect the workers and criminal activity. The power to regulate is limited by the US Constitution and rightly so. Our nation's commerce is built on the idea of private ownership. Your economic ideas are interesting albeit not capitalist at all, I will have to dig up my books on economies to see where that would fit.
    Well I can post some links. Actually what we have now is not capitalism. We have a system that let's people with small business's fall, people lose their homes, but will give tax payer money to huge multinational companies. You see, you fail to see that the govt is here to provide the commons with representation. Letting private industry run rapid is exactly what has happened over the bush years, and was started in the 70's and continued to even now. Sure some things have been done but not anything close to keeping our country from going down the same road once again.
    Hyper inflation? I doubt it. business's would have to maybe understand they can't pay ceo's mega millions and their workers less then live able wages. You seem to be all about protecting the business but when it comes to protected this country/people/family's you could care less. One thing you should know, we elect people in govt, we have no say in private industry. those people who we elect run the govt therefore what kind of govt we have is soley our fault. So when you voted for bush in 2000, and 2004 you voted for the kind of govt we all had. You were part of the hell we all endured. when people vote for these nutjobs that are the teabaggers running in races all around the country that want to do away with medicare, public school, privatize SS, do away with the 14th amendment, handcuff people for inquiring about something they said, avoid interviews, take millions from private industries who are trying to hurt the citizens of this country, oh the list goes on and on.
    Also the power to regulate is not limited in the constitution. Where is that? We do not have a capitalistic society. The free market does not exist. Fascism is more what comes to mind, although maybe some sort of hybrid of it. Look at the money that has flooded this election cycle. The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind. Money seems to run our politics and is on steroids.

    Since you cannot discuss this rationally and cannot refrain from the assinine name calling our conversation is over. Care to make any predictions on how the mid-terms will turn out?
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Well your arguement proved my point nicely! Thank you! The fact that goods made overseas cost about the same as they did years ago goes to prove my point. The price of products made here has increased exponentially over the years, but those made in China and places like that have stayed about the same as they were when they were made here in the U.S. years ago. Look at American cars. The reason they haven't shot up in price is because they are manufactured outside the U.S. That is the only way to keep prices where they are.

    And just to correct a few things that you are either mistaken on, or just flat out lied about:
    Someone making minimum wage in this country does NOT make a little less than $12,000. They actually make a little over $15,000. Yes this is a very low wage, but if we are going to site facts lets at least get the correct. Minimum wage is $7.25.

    You're view of the healthcare law is very slanted. This law does much more than what you stated, and the number 1 thing it did was cause insurance rates to skyrocket! This is obvious from posts from our members here that have had their insurance rates shoot off the charts, and also mine did as well.

    This health care law also forces citizens to purchase insurance which as we will see probably in 2011, is illegal and unconstitutional, not to mention WRONG! It is NOT the governments job to tell me that I have to have insurance. Also now according to the head of the CBO, their latest projections show that the health care law will encourage many people not to work because the government will take care of them. This is something the democrats always claimed was a lie told by the republicans and that the CBO backed them up during the debate over the legislation... It's funny because the closer people look at this law the more of the truth comes out.
    Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf - “For the economy outside the health sector, the most significant impact of the legislation will be through the labor market. We estimated that the legislation, on net, will reduce the amount of labor used in the economy by roughly half a percent, primarily by reducing the amount that people choose to work."

    Also you keep talking about how the republicans are the ones calling for corporate welfare and giving money to failing companies, but look at the voting record for the bail outs of the bank industry and auto industry and you will see a LOT more democrats voted for those pieces of legislation than did republicans...

    And one last thing you got wrong and you have continued to falsely claim over and over again, I am NOT a republican. I'm not a registered member of any political party. I don't follow party lines and I don't agree completely with any one line of thinking.
  • TokinstogieTokinstogie Posts: 46 ✭✭
    Over regulation, over regulation, over regulation, That's the freaking problem, so, let's keep talkng about more regulation, yep that's it, we need more regulation. China is hiring and they're paying engineers alot more than 25 cents an hour, can you say brain drain? Ah, but that them.....did I say we need more regulation.................
    I was going to say, maybe it's time I quit drinking and smoking, tear down all the Vargas girl posters and straighten out my life. But I won't.....
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    fla-gypsy:
    phobicsquirrel:
    fla-gypsy:
    phobicsquirrel:
    xmacro:
    US workers are paid $10-$80/hr; Chinese are paid about $0.25/hr. Manufacturing jobs are NEVER going to come back to the US; even McCain and Obama agreed on this point during their campaign. It's got less to do with tax policy than with the costs of manufacturing. It's cheaper abroad, and no amount of meddling by the Gov't is going to change that - anyone who tells you differently is selling something

    The odd thing is, China is currently trying to grow it's middle class, to encourage domestic demand; this means wages will be increasing. The effect? Manufacturing will soon be moving out of China and into Laos/Vietnam/Africa, where it'll be cheaper.
    actually I find that wrong. Manufacturing can come back through legislation. If companies are no longer offered incentives to outsource and if China and it's export/currency issue is resolved I think they will. Only thing is, congress needs to produce stiff regulations on it. A high tax for outsourcing, and an incentive to in source. This isn't so much about saving companies money, it's about keeping our country from being a 3rd world nation, as if in a lot of sectors we already are. As a consumer driven economy and the lack of people's wages, and the low wages the country cannot sustain itself. Manufacturing is really the only way to go. Right now there are several bills on the matter however the GOP have blocked everyone of them. Companies are always going to go with the cheapest solution, its up to the governing body to decide whether its people should come before private profits. massive amounts of poor cannot sustain a country, at least a world leading country.


    Your idea would only create hyper-inflation, not jobs. You say we are a 3rd world country in some ways already, please explain that. The Govt has no, and should not have any say in how a private company orders it's priorities outside safety and health regs and to protect the workers and criminal activity. The power to regulate is limited by the US Constitution and rightly so. Our nation's commerce is built on the idea of private ownership. Your economic ideas are interesting albeit not capitalist at all, I will have to dig up my books on economies to see where that would fit.
    Well I can post some links. Actually what we have now is not capitalism. We have a system that let's people with small business's fall, people lose their homes, but will give tax payer money to huge multinational companies. You see, you fail to see that the govt is here to provide the commons with representation. Letting private industry run rapid is exactly what has happened over the bush years, and was started in the 70's and continued to even now. Sure some things have been done but not anything close to keeping our country from going down the same road once again.
    Hyper inflation? I doubt it. business's would have to maybe understand they can't pay ceo's mega millions and their workers less then live able wages. You seem to be all about protecting the business but when it comes to protected this country/people/family's you could care less. One thing you should know, we elect people in govt, we have no say in private industry. those people who we elect run the govt therefore what kind of govt we have is soley our fault. So when you voted for bush in 2000, and 2004 you voted for the kind of govt we all had. You were part of the hell we all endured. when people vote for these nutjobs that are the teabaggers running in races all around the country that want to do away with medicare, public school, privatize SS, do away with the 14th amendment, handcuff people for inquiring about something they said, avoid interviews, take millions from private industries who are trying to hurt the citizens of this country, oh the list goes on and on.
    Also the power to regulate is not limited in the constitution. Where is that? We do not have a capitalistic society. The free market does not exist. Fascism is more what comes to mind, although maybe some sort of hybrid of it. Look at the money that has flooded this election cycle. The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind. Money seems to run our politics and is on steroids.

    Since you cannot discuss this rationally and cannot refrain from the assinine name calling our conversation is over. Care to make any predictions on how the mid-terms will turn out?
    lol.. yeah talking to you people is worthless. The mid terms? Well I think you will be surprised. But like I said, the people who are running in the GOP are really going to make what happened under bush look like a nice day at the park.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,806 ✭✭✭
    +1
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