I know Kuzi....you said that twice now. If your not getting political anymore, fine. Then dont police those of us (any of us for that metter) who are engaging in what, at least has seemed to be, a discussion. Its like the guy who doesnt vote, then complains about the official. Or mediating a fight where no mediator is wanted, or in this case needed.
if ive said it twice, and you understood it twice, why do i have to say that i wont stop laker or anyone from posting anything they want a third time?
im not mediating anything. i already admitted to my mispost in this thread. i see where i am wrong. im not complaining about this thread i even said above that it was going well. i was simply expressing a conversation that i had with laker about why the two of us are atempting to stay out of it. im not complaining. im not trying to stop you. i am explaining a point that you seemed to show interest in. Im sorry if that pisses you off. im sorry i DIDNT get involved. im sorry for whatever the heck else you are about to throw at me. i see you arent fighting. im not stepping in. im not adding my opinion on the topic of this thread.
Well, we have at times devolved into a slug-fest here, and many, myself included, have sometimes gone too far. I must say that I miss your input, Kuzi, as it is usually well thought out. However, we are not a formal debating society, the atmosphere is casual enough that some mild abrasion should be expected and tolerated. Xmacro is also right, a little passion is often in order, spice of life, etc.
As an example, Xmacro and I have had serious differences on some subjects, yet, when he is giving opinion on something I know less about, I've often found myself able to learn from him. A little give and take is in order, and, difficult as it sometimes is, we do need to be grown-up enough to recognize when we've crossed the line and referee ourselves.
Personally, I find that having people from so many different backgrounds and political affiliations makes for the most interesting kind of conversation.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
A little give and take is in order, and, difficult as it sometimes is, we do need to be grown-up enough to recognize when we've crossed the line and referee ourselves.
+1 to this. A little while ago, I flew off the handle on Vulchor and more or less cursed him out - he called me on it, I apologized, and backed out of the thread. Once you cross that line like I did, you've got no business commenting on the topic anymore and you gotta pull yourself out; but so long as it doesn't devolve into that, a heated discussion can be thrilling.
A little give and take is in order, and, difficult as it sometimes is, we do need to be grown-up enough to recognize when we've crossed the line and referee ourselves.
+1 to this. A little while ago, I flew off the handle on Vulchor and more or less cursed him out - he called me on it, I apologized, and backed out of the thread. Once you cross that line like I did, you've got no business commenting on the topic anymore and you gotta pull yourself out; but so long as it doesn't devolve into that, a heated discussion can be thrilling.
But i havent forgotten it you $on of a ****.......actually, I had. Which is doubly funny, because I didnt even think that was you Macro, lolllllll.
Ah dammit - I shoulda just said it was Amos or Pheebs :P
This actually did make me laugh out loud.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I know Kuzi....you said that twice now. If your not getting political anymore, fine. Then dont police those of us (any of us for that metter) who are engaging in what, at least has seemed to be, a discussion. Its like the guy who doesnt vote, then complains about the official. Or mediating a fight where no mediator is wanted, or in this case needed.
if ive said it twice, and you understood it twice, why do i have to say that i wont stop laker or anyone from posting anything they want a third time?
im not mediating anything. i already admitted to my mispost in this thread. i see where i am wrong. im not complaining about this thread i even said above that it was going well. i was simply expressing a conversation that i had with laker about why the two of us are atempting to stay out of it. im not complaining. im not trying to stop you. i am explaining a point that you seemed to show interest in. Im sorry if that pisses you off. im sorry i DIDNT get involved. im sorry for whatever the heck else you are about to throw at me. i see you arent fighting. im not stepping in. im not adding my opinion on the topic of this thread.
damn... you dont have to beat me up over it.
Just to be clear here, what I wrote the other day was something I thought about before writting it because I had made the decision to not participate in the political forum. However I decided that this statement was NOT political but rather a general comment on a political situation. I don't consider this splitting hairs because I said nothing controversial nor did I have any ideas of furthering my comments in a discussion with someone else, so I went ahead and wrote it. Here is a copy of what I said, and I don't feel like I have gone back on my word in any way whatsoever.
I promised to stay out of political discussions and will not vary from that. I will say on this point however that it is NOT the responsibilty of the US alone to do something about this situation. I don't blame Obama one bit for his position. Where the hell is the rest of the world on this issue, including Canada? The Brits and French want to go in but until these pencil pushers have wasted more time then they are worth nothing is going to happen. People dying at the hands of their "Leader" just isn't enough to cause an international reaction. The discussion should not be about who does or does not lead this operation, the discussion should be about the killing of people who thought the world would support them in their fight for freedom. As usual talk and perception win out over reality everytime in our society. We talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Shame on all of us.
How is this going against any agreements not to comment on political discussions? I saw this as a statement on humanity NOT a POLITICAL comment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen.. I am good..and did not take offense at the response to my post nor any of the counters to Phobic's original .. Freud.. said it best - "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"... so lets all just light up and agree to disagree...
Gentlemen.. I am good..and did not take offense at the response to my post nor any of the counters to Phobic's original .. Freud.. said it best - "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"... so lets all just light up and agree to disagree...
Gentlemen.. I am good..and did not take offense at the response to my post nor any of the counters to Phobic's original .. Freud.. said it best - "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"... so lets all just light up and agree to disagree...
I think you misunderstood the joke.
Yeah, Kuzi's humor is like that. He's really not very funny. LMAO
Gentlemen.. I am good..and did not take offense at the response to my post nor any of the counters to Phobic's original .. Freud.. said it best - "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"... so lets all just light up and agree to disagree...
I think you misunderstood the joke.
This thread was feeling a little phallic. Thats what she said.
As for the meat of my OR post, I got it from think progress, but with any digging you will find the actual proposals on all of those states at their actual state's website where the bills are. Since I last posted a bill in PDF people said it was too long so I put up some tid bits. Here's some info on just Wisconsin's workers and how they pay for their benefits!!!
I find it really sad that many people still like to demonize those who already have sacrificed so much. You all like to say they make too much or you pay for their salaries but what about those who are making off with billions of your tax dollars? Do you know how some of the biggest banks and firms in this country not only pay next to nothing in taxes but get refunds? Do you know that while you blast the poor or people on food stamps or state run programs that that's nothing to what your taxes are going too to subsidize "PRIVATE" business. You all have been hoodwinked. I mean the proof is all around. And to say that these GOP governor's are doing good work, really? Do you have any idea how and what has been going on? I mean your fine with them giving huge tax cuts to out of state corporations but then taking away from their own workers and people? How is that right? Teachers have been getting the shaft for decades as is our education. Hell I'm only 29 and when I was in school it was always we have to cut this, but now it's even worse.
We live in a consumer driven economy, however people are making less and less people are working than 5 years ago and what does that do to our country? What about the dollar and our power as an economic power? it ruins it. I bet most of you don't even know that there is serious talk about dropping the dollar as the world's trading currency. Yeah that' will really cause problems especially when we owe so much. Some how it's wrong for someone to make a decent wage (ooooo 50,000 is so much) and have health insurance that doesn't raise 60 percent every year, and have a retirement plan that can be some-what lived on. That's so bad. But it is isn't it, but hell it's okay for a few people to make money from killing your hometown from leaking chemicals or damaging eco systems.
It's okay for people to make money off of people dying, it's okay for people to make money on oil which is in bed with the DOD And our entire financial system which kills our troops and wastes our money on wars. It's okay for wall street to steal trillions of dollars from our economy and get away with it. It's okay for pharmaceuticals to put out drug after drug after drug while making billions but their drugs kill people. It's okay for statesmen to put forth policies that destroy your states economy, our nation's economy and only benefit the richest, and the largest companies which can just move to another country when our's collapses. Yeah, they have no loyalty. Do you even realize that if it wasn't for the corporate greed and power take over we wouldn't be in these wars, wasting trillions of dollars, lives and making our country look like a joke. All of these polices are killing our nation. We are getting poorer and poorer while the top 1 percent makes off with it all. I think a lot of you need to look really deep into what you believe and follow the money or just the true facts. Hell we as a country created the way the world does finances, we set up the stock exchange, many of the largest countries based their economy after ours, but now they won't even touch it. Japan flat out said the wouldn't follow our lead and we were being stupid. Soon your going to wake up and it'll be too late. What will it take? I mean what?
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
I can't help but think, and I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but instead of constantly blaming the top 1% of earners, why not become one yourself?
Is that somehow impossible? I mean, I used to bit*h and moan about how someone else always has it so much better. What do they have that I don't? Isn't it out there for the taking? Just have to work really hard for it, I guess.
I'm not rich, by any means. In fact, I'm an "evil" government worker. But even I'm not stupid enough to believe that I somehow did something amazing to earn the salary I make or the benefits I get. I got lucky considering.....
D student my whole life. Hardly any college under my belt. Government job seemed the safest bet for me cuz I didn't think I could hack it in the private sector. I never put in any real work. "If I knew then what I know now" is a mantra that will haunt me for the rest of my days.
I'm not saying I'm the same as every other government worker. Some do it out of pride or passion. Some really did work hard to get where they are. But there are a lot like me. A lot of people that are just "puttin their time in".
Who knows? Maybe its time to take a second look at myself. I've gotten some life experience over the years. Learned a few things here and there, free of charge. Maybe it's time I become one of those rich a-holes that everyone's always complaining about. Lord knows I'd love to not pay taxes ever again!!!
Guns don't kill people, Daddies with pretty daughters do…..
Gentlemen.. I am good..and did not take offense at the response to my post nor any of the counters to Phobic's original .. Freud.. said it best - "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"... so lets all just light up and agree to disagree...
I think you misunderstood the joke.
Yeah, Kuzi's humor is like that. He's really not very funny. LMAO
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
I was under the impression that it mostly went to ensure union workers kept their jobs. Kinda like a democrati slush fund.
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
+1......but as has ben the way since Reagan, "they" find a way to craft it as yet another evil done by the poor and middling classes. "They" deserse credit though (and I hate to admit it) because they turned the South into red states and got the people with no money into a family values and fincnial resposibility bandwagon. Those are great ideas and make people forget the class warfare going on. Hell, the fact we are all sitting here having this debate now is proof of that. Repubs and Dems aiike want the average citizen fighting with each other....keeps their big money and big power centralized. We keep fighting about who is right, and theyre having cocktail parties with each other once the cameras are turned off.
EDIT - damn, it was never my intention to write an entire book in response to Pheebs; sorry to anyone who has to read this
phobicsquirrel:
I find it really sad that many people still like to demonize those who already have sacrificed so much.
Not demonizing - just pointing out that people who are paid with tax dollars are being paid too much. The private sector creates wealth - it doesn't take it from Peter to pay Paul. When a company pays it's people, it pays them with money it took in via providing a good or service - it in effect, created it's own wealth.
When a Gov't pays it's people, it pays them with taxpayer dollars. Gov't can't create wealth - all it can do is tax and spend, and when it sends out fatter and fatter paychecks, it's not because it had a successful quarter, but because it took more and more from those who created the wealth. Lest you forget, Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, but for whatever reason, you seem to think we're all playing Monopoly.
EDIT - before you go into the whole "top 1% own the world" argument, know that the top 1% pay 50% of the taxes - is that "fair"?
phobicsquirrel:
You all like to say they make too much or you pay for their salaries but what about those who are making off with billions of your tax dollars? Do you know how some of the biggest banks and firms in this country not only pay next to nothing in taxes but get refunds? Do you know that while you blast the poor or people on food stamps or state run programs that that's nothing to what your taxes are going too to subsidize "PRIVATE" business.
No one ever said it was right to bail out all those companies - if your position is that Wall Street and the auto companies should've been allowed to fail without Gov't intervention, you'll find support within the tea party.
phobicsquirrel:
You all have been hoodwinked. I mean the proof is all around. And to say that these GOP governor's are doing good work, really? Do you have any idea how and what has been going on? I mean your fine with them giving huge tax cuts to out of state corporations but then taking away from their own workers and people? How is that right? Teachers have been getting the shaft for decades as is our education. Hell I'm only 29 and when I was in school it was always we have to cut this, but now it's even worse.
Pheebs, let me say this as clearly as I can so even a squirrel can understand it - Tax cuts are not giveaways - tax cuts allow people to keep more of the money they earned themselves.
This is the biggest problem with the far left, isn't it? They all think that tax cuts, allowing someone to keep their own money, is somehow "giving it away". By that logic, if someone makes $100,000/yr and the Gov't takes 80% and doesn't take 100% of a persons salary, the Gov't "gave" that person $20,000. Most regular people would say the Gov't confiscated $80,000
But by your logic, if the Gov't cuts taxes down to 60% from 80%, the Gov't just "gave away" $20,000 more.
Tell me Pheebs, what exactly do you think "private property" means? Is anything I earn my own, or does every paycheck belong to the Gov't, and I' should count myself lucky they don't confiscate it all?
phobicsquirrel:
We live in a consumer driven economy, however people are making less and less people are working than 5 years ago and what does that do to our country?
Yes, people are working less than they were 5 yrs ago - we just had a recession, unemployment went up, and it hasn't gone back down. This is for you:
phobicsquirrel:
What about the dollar and our power as an economic power? it ruins it. I bet most of you don't even know that there is serious talk about dropping the dollar as the world's trading currency. Yeah that' will really cause problems especially when we owe so much.
Now you're getting annoying when you insult people's intelligence. If you're gonna go that route, you better be reading something other than a bunch of ranting progressive blogs if you don't wanna be made a fool of.
The strength of the dollar doesn't have to do with unemployment - it has to do with the Fed and monetary policy. And if you've been following along in the newspapers, Ben Bernanke has been pursuing a QE2 policy, the goal of which is to devalue the dollar/increase inflation (If you want more info, pick up a WSJ and look into it - the reasoning behind it would take paragraphs to explain). Is the guy wrong? Very likely he is - as gas prices rise, Bernanke keeps saying that inflation for food/fuel doesn't matter, that only "core" inflation matters - the guy is an academic with no connection to the pain people are feeling.
The general idea is to "devalue our way to prosperity" - by devaluing the dollar, exports become cheaper, and therefore increase, which makes it look like the economy is picking up, even though inflation is cutting into peoples pocketbooks - you can thank Obama for that
------------------------------------------
Second, that "serious talk" about dropping the dollar is coming from 2 countries - Iran and China. It's nothing but cheap talk from two countries who would like to see the US knocked down a few pegs - that said, there is some truth in it, since more and more countries are cutting contracts between each other that don't rely on dollar exchanges. Why? Because the dollar is devaluing, see above.
Lastly - WE ALREADY OWE TOO MUCH!! We have a $14 trillion economy, and guess what? We OWE almost $14 trillion. The problem with the budget isn't so much that we owe it to countries that really don't like us, it's that the interest payments will kill our economy - by 2019, it's estimated that we'll be paying more than $700 billion a year in interest payments alone.
Now tell me why we should increase Gov't spending? Tell me why cutting funding for the Cowboy Poetry Festival is just going too far, as Harry Reid recently said? Tell me why Harry Reid, when asked if entitlements were on the table said "maybe in a few decades"?
There are most certainly democrats in the senate willing to reform entitlements, but the bigwigs aren't among them.
phobicsquirrel:
Some how it's wrong for someone to make a decent wage (ooooo 50,000 is so much) and have health insurance that doesn't raise 60 percent every year, and have a retirement plan that can be some-what lived on. That's so bad.
Health premiums have been rising faster under Obamacare than they were previously - you can't increase coverage and increase benefits, and expect premiums to drop. It's like if you drove a Ford pickup, then went out to try and buy a BMW, then said you want all the options, but expected to pay less than what you did for your pickup. You can't increase coverage and increase benefits and suddenly expect the price to drop.
phobicsquirrel:
But it is isn't it, but hell it's okay for a few people to make money from killing your hometown from leaking chemicals or damaging eco systems. It's okay for people to make money off of people dying, it's okay for people to make money on oil which is in bed with the DOD And our entire financial system which kills our troops and wastes our money on wars. It's okay for wall street to steal trillions of dollars from our economy and get away with it. It's okay for pharmaceuticals to put out drug after drug after drug while making billions but their drugs kill people. It's okay for statesmen to put forth policies that destroy your states economy, our nation's economy and only benefit the richest, and the largest companies which can just move to another country when our's collapses. Yeah, they have no loyalty. Do you even realize that if it wasn't for the corporate greed and power take over we wouldn't be in these wars, wasting trillions of dollars, lives and making our country look like a joke. All of these polices are killing our nation. We are getting poorer and poorer while the top 1 percent makes off with it all. I think a lot of you need to look really deep into what you believe and follow the money or just the true facts. Hell we as a country created the way the world does finances, we set up the stock exchange, many of the largest countries based their economy after ours, but now they won't even touch it. Japan flat out said the wouldn't follow our lead and we were being stupid. Soon your going to wake up and it'll be too late. What will it take? I mean what?
ok, this is starting to sound like a rant, and I'm not touching it. All I can say is to chill out - every generation, it looks like the world is going off a cliff (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, recession, Great Recession, etc), and every generation it's saved, seemingly in its darkest hour.
At the end of the day, all we can do is sit back and shake our heads - not much we can do to change things except put the men and women into office we think can make the difference and then pray God helps them.
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
Not repeating Republican talking points at all. Just talking Pheebs continuing support for govt. regulation be the answer for everything and failing to realize that most of the time it is actually the cause of our problems. And this goes for regulations created by Republicans as well. Like the banking and housing crisis. If the government hadn't forced banks to make bad loans with the dream or "home ownership as a natural right" we would not have the massive problems we've had.
Not demonizing - just pointing out that people who are paid with tax dollars are being paid too much. The private sector creates wealth - it doesn't take it from Peter to pay Paul. When a company pays it's people, it pays them with money it took in via providing a good or service - it in effect, created it's own wealth.
When a Gov't pays it's people, it pays them with taxpayer dollars. Gov't can't create wealth - all it can do is tax and spend, and when it sends out fatter and fatter paychecks, it's not because it had a successful quarter, but because it took more and more from those who created the wealth. Lest you forget, Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, but for whatever reason, you seem to think we're all playing Monopoly.
EDIT - before you go into the whole "top 1% own the world" argument, know that the top 1% pay 50% of the taxes - is that "fair"?
I've heard this, I've also heard that that same top 1% controls 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them only paying 50% of the taxes.
Pheebs, let me say this as clearly as I can so even a squirrel can understand it - Tax cuts are not giveaways - tax cuts allow people to keep more of the money they earned themselves.
This is the biggest problem with the far left, isn't it? They all think that tax cuts, allowing someone to keep their own money, is somehow "giving it away". By that logic, if someone makes $100,000/yr and the Gov't takes 80% and doesn't take 100% of a persons salary, the Gov't "gave" that person $20,000. Most regular people would say the Gov't confiscated $80,000
But by your logic, if the Gov't cuts taxes down to 60% from 80%, the Gov't just "gave away" $20,000 more.
Tell me Pheebs, what exactly do you think "private property" means? Is anything I earn my own, or does every paycheck belong to the Gov't, and I' should count myself lucky they don't confiscate it all?
I've got to agree with you here.
Yes, people are working less than they were 5 yrs ago - we just had a recession, unemployment went up, and it hasn't gone back down. This is for you:
Anyone else think that this recession was the result of various lassaiz-faire deregulation?
Second, that "serious talk" about dropping the dollar is coming from 2 countries - Iran and China. It's nothing but cheap talk from two countries who would like to see the US knocked down a few pegs - that said, there is some truth in it, since more and more countries are cutting contracts between each other that don't rely on dollar exchanges. Why? Because the dollar is devaluing, see above.
Lastly - WE ALREADY OWE TOO MUCH!! We have a $14 trillion economy, and guess what? We OWE almost $14 trillion. The problem with the budget isn't so much that we owe it to countries that really don't like us, it's that the interest payments will kill our economy - by 2019, it's estimated that we'll be paying more than $700 billion a year in interest payments alone.
Now tell me why we should increase Gov't spending? Tell me why cutting funding for the Cowboy Poetry Festival is just going too far, as Harry Reid recently said? Tell me why Harry Reid, when asked if entitlements were on the table said "maybe in a few decades"?
There are most certainly democrats in the senate willing to reform entitlements, but the bigwigs aren't among them.
Again, I must agree.
Health premiums have been rising faster under Obamacare than they were previously - you can't increase coverage and increase benefits, and expect premiums to drop. It's like if you drove a Ford pickup, then went out to try and buy a BMW, then said you want all the options, but expected to pay less than what you did for your pickup. You can't increase coverage and increase benefits and suddenly expect the price to drop.
Can we legitimately call the current legislation "Obamacare", when a: it isn't yet in effect, and b: it barely resembles what President Obama seemed to want
ok, this is starting to sound like a rant, and I'm not touching it. All I can say is to chill out - every generation, it looks like the world is going off a cliff (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, recession, Great Recession, etc), and every generation it's saved, seemingly in its darkest hour.
At the end of the day, all we can do is sit back and shake our heads - not much we can do to change things except put the men and women into office we think can make the difference and then pray God helps them.
Once again, I think you've got this part right completely
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
well, I screwed that up! I can't tell mine from Xmacro's, at any rate, my main point was to be: Yes, I've heard the top 1% pay half the taxes, but I've also heard they have 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them paying half the taxes.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
well, I screwed that up! I can't tell mine from Xmacro's, at any rate, my main point was to be: Yes, I've heard the top 1% pay half the taxes, but I've also heard they have 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them paying half the taxes.
So you don't believe in private property either? What is enough? Would you still feel its "OK" if they paid 80% or even 90%?
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
Not repeating Republican talking points at all. Just talking Pheebs continuing support for govt. regulation be the answer for everything and failing to realize that most of the time it is actually the cause of our problems. And this goes for regulations created by Republicans as well. Like the banking and housing crisis. If the government hadn't forced banks to make bad loans with the dream or "home ownership as a natural right" we would not have the massive problems we've had.
Yeah, I'm not a believer in that "natural right" thing, either, for home ownership or health care or any of that nonsense. Regulation of some sort is a necessary evil, though, and we seem to dregulate the things that most need it, and over-regulate in areas that shouldn't be any government concern. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the whole housing fiasco, the forcing of the banks etc., was tied by Democrats to Republican legislation that gave big $ to people who already had big $. No?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Amos---you and Pheebs are right, IMO about the hosuing crisis----or at the very least 95% correct. The right will never agree with that, and nor will Puro. That is not me having a go on him, its just the way it is. Each side believes their way of looking at it is the correct way. I feel strongly about my opinion (to the point I think it is fact really), but its not going to change those who feel regulation or the dems or lending practices or whatever were the real cause.
The problem with your solutions to the problems we face as a nation is that it always includes the government giving more and more to people. That doesn't work when they have to take that money from an already slow and sluggish economy. The government can't keep paying to bail the country out. There comes a point where people have to roll up their sleeves and realize the answer to this mess isn't the government, its the people. I know you love to attack the rich and the corporations for "hoarding" all the money, but that has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the facts sometime instead of spouting the Democrat talking points about the top 1%.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're not reading what Pheeb's is writing. In fact, it sounds like you're just repeating Republican talking points. You are certainly right about the government not being able to keep paying to bail "the country" out, thing is, most of the bail-out seems to be going to those who risked everyone elses money to enrich themselves without doing any real "hard work". But, I could be wrong.
Not repeating Republican talking points at all. Just talking Pheebs continuing support for govt. regulation be the answer for everything and failing to realize that most of the time it is actually the cause of our problems. And this goes for regulations created by Republicans as well. Like the banking and housing crisis. If the government hadn't forced banks to make bad loans with the dream or "home ownership as a natural right" we would not have the massive problems we've had.
Yeah, I'm not a believer in that "natural right" thing, either, for home ownership or health care or any of that nonsense. Regulation of some sort is a necessary evil, though, and we seem to dregulate the things that most need it, and over-regulate in areas that shouldn't be any government concern. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the whole housing fiasco, the forcing of the banks etc., was tied by Democrats to Republican legislation that gave big $ to people who already had big $. No?
Yes the bailout of banks was supported by both parties and they were both wrong. The fair housing act was one of the major causes of the collapse however. I understand that relation is necessary, but only to protect rights of individuals, not to keep corporations lined with either parties moral compass. Banking, healthcare, insurance, alcohol, tobacco, oil and gas...etc... these are all industries regulated and taxed based on the governments perception of them not doing the right thing. But if they are not violating rights or breaking current laws, then they need to be left the hell alone. Also this whole notion that the rich have 90% of the money and that its holding us back is bogus. The fact that Bill Gates was making billions of dollars in the 90's didn't influence how much I made whatsoever. And unless you worked for his company or someone who did business with him directly, I doubt it had any effect on you either.
well, I screwed that up! I can't tell mine from Xmacro's, at any rate, my main point was to be: Yes, I've heard the top 1% pay half the taxes, but I've also heard they have 90% of the money, so, I'm OK with them paying half the taxes.
Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game - there is no "pool of money" that everyone dips out of. You've got to stop thinking of this as if it were a game of Monopoly or that there's only so much money to go around - that's the biggest problem with the Left when it comes to economics, they can't get beyond the Monopoly mindset.
The private sector creates wealth, the Gov't is the one who redistributes it - the reason these companies hold "90%" of the money is because they're the ones who created it in the first place!!
Lastly - remember that no company is fixed in it's place. They can ALL pick themselves up and move to another State or another country if taxes get too high - that's why you're seeing business flee NY and CA, because of taxes. If State X confiscated 50% of the taxes, and State Y confiscates 20%, any business with the ability is going to fire all it's employees in State X and move itself to State Y. Now State X not only lost the tax revenue from that business, but it also gained people on it's unemployment rolls.
Comments
im not mediating anything. i already admitted to my mispost in this thread. i see where i am wrong. im not complaining about this thread i even said above that it was going well. i was simply expressing a conversation that i had with laker about why the two of us are atempting to stay out of it. im not complaining. im not trying to stop you. i am explaining a point that you seemed to show interest in. Im sorry if that pisses you off. im sorry i DIDNT get involved. im sorry for whatever the heck else you are about to throw at me. i see you arent fighting. im not stepping in. im not adding my opinion on the topic of this thread.
damn... you dont have to beat me up over it.
As an example, Xmacro and I have had serious differences on some subjects, yet, when he is giving opinion on something I know less about, I've often found myself able to learn from him. A little give and take is in order, and, difficult as it sometimes is, we do need to be grown-up enough to recognize when we've crossed the line and referee ourselves.
Personally, I find that having people from so many different backgrounds and political affiliations makes for the most interesting kind of conversation.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I promised to stay out of political discussions and will not vary from that. I will say on this point however that it is NOT the responsibilty of the US alone to do something about this situation. I don't blame Obama one bit for his position. Where the hell is the rest of the world on this issue, including Canada? The Brits and French want to go in but until these pencil pushers have wasted more time then they are worth nothing is going to happen. People dying at the hands of their "Leader" just isn't enough to cause an international reaction. The discussion should not be about who does or does not lead this operation, the discussion should be about the killing of people who thought the world would support them in their fight for freedom. As usual talk and perception win out over reality everytime in our society. We talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Shame on all of us.
How is this going against any agreements not to comment on political discussions? I saw this as a statement on humanity NOT a POLITICAL comment. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/
I find it really sad that many people still like to demonize those who already have sacrificed so much. You all like to say they make too much or you pay for their salaries but what about those who are making off with billions of your tax dollars? Do you know how some of the biggest banks and firms in this country not only pay next to nothing in taxes but get refunds? Do you know that while you blast the poor or people on food stamps or state run programs that that's nothing to what your taxes are going too to subsidize "PRIVATE" business. You all have been hoodwinked. I mean the proof is all around. And to say that these GOP governor's are doing good work, really? Do you have any idea how and what has been going on? I mean your fine with them giving huge tax cuts to out of state corporations but then taking away from their own workers and people? How is that right? Teachers have been getting the shaft for decades as is our education. Hell I'm only 29 and when I was in school it was always we have to cut this, but now it's even worse.
We live in a consumer driven economy, however people are making less and less people are working than 5 years ago and what does that do to our country? What about the dollar and our power as an economic power? it ruins it. I bet most of you don't even know that there is serious talk about dropping the dollar as the world's trading currency. Yeah that' will really cause problems especially when we owe so much. Some how it's wrong for someone to make a decent wage (ooooo 50,000 is so much) and have health insurance that doesn't raise 60 percent every year, and have a retirement plan that can be some-what lived on. That's so bad. But it is isn't it, but hell it's okay for a few people to make money from killing your hometown from leaking chemicals or damaging eco systems.
It's okay for people to make money off of people dying, it's okay for people to make money on oil which is in bed with the DOD And our entire financial system which kills our troops and wastes our money on wars. It's okay for wall street to steal trillions of dollars from our economy and get away with it. It's okay for pharmaceuticals to put out drug after drug after drug while making billions but their drugs kill people. It's okay for statesmen to put forth policies that destroy your states economy, our nation's economy and only benefit the richest, and the largest companies which can just move to another country when our's collapses. Yeah, they have no loyalty. Do you even realize that if it wasn't for the corporate greed and power take over we wouldn't be in these wars, wasting trillions of dollars, lives and making our country look like a joke. All of these polices are killing our nation. We are getting poorer and poorer while the top 1 percent makes off with it all. I think a lot of you need to look really deep into what you believe and follow the money or just the true facts. Hell we as a country created the way the world does finances, we set up the stock exchange, many of the largest countries based their economy after ours, but now they won't even touch it. Japan flat out said the wouldn't follow our lead and we were being stupid. Soon your going to wake up and it'll be too late. What will it take? I mean what?
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12809
Is that somehow impossible? I mean, I used to bit*h and moan about how someone else always has it so much better. What do they have that I don't? Isn't it out there for the taking? Just have to work really hard for it, I guess.
I'm not rich, by any means. In fact, I'm an "evil" government worker. But even I'm not stupid enough to believe that I somehow did something amazing to earn the salary I make or the benefits I get. I got lucky considering.....
D student my whole life. Hardly any college under my belt. Government job seemed the safest bet for me cuz I didn't think I could hack it in the private sector. I never put in any real work. "If I knew then what I know now" is a mantra that will haunt me for the rest of my days.
I'm not saying I'm the same as every other government worker. Some do it out of pride or passion. Some really did work hard to get where they are. But there are a lot like me. A lot of people that are just "puttin their time in".
Who knows? Maybe its time to take a second look at myself. I've gotten some life experience over the years. Learned a few things here and there, free of charge. Maybe it's time I become one of those rich a-holes that everyone's always complaining about. Lord knows I'd love to not pay taxes ever again!!!
no i am not.
ever.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Not demonizing - just pointing out that people who are paid with tax dollars are being paid too much. The private sector creates wealth - it doesn't take it from Peter to pay Paul. When a company pays it's people, it pays them with money it took in via providing a good or service - it in effect, created it's own wealth.
When a Gov't pays it's people, it pays them with taxpayer dollars. Gov't can't create wealth - all it can do is tax and spend, and when it sends out fatter and fatter paychecks, it's not because it had a successful quarter, but because it took more and more from those who created the wealth. Lest you forget, Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, but for whatever reason, you seem to think we're all playing Monopoly.
EDIT - before you go into the whole "top 1% own the world" argument, know that the top 1% pay 50% of the taxes - is that "fair"? No one ever said it was right to bail out all those companies - if your position is that Wall Street and the auto companies should've been allowed to fail without Gov't intervention, you'll find support within the tea party. Pheebs, let me say this as clearly as I can so even a squirrel can understand it - Tax cuts are not giveaways - tax cuts allow people to keep more of the money they earned themselves.
This is the biggest problem with the far left, isn't it? They all think that tax cuts, allowing someone to keep their own money, is somehow "giving it away". By that logic, if someone makes $100,000/yr and the Gov't takes 80% and doesn't take 100% of a persons salary, the Gov't "gave" that person $20,000. Most regular people would say the Gov't confiscated $80,000
But by your logic, if the Gov't cuts taxes down to 60% from 80%, the Gov't just "gave away" $20,000 more.
Tell me Pheebs, what exactly do you think "private property" means? Is anything I earn my own, or does every paycheck belong to the Gov't, and I' should count myself lucky they don't confiscate it all? Yes, people are working less than they were 5 yrs ago - we just had a recession, unemployment went up, and it hasn't gone back down. This is for you:
The strength of the dollar doesn't have to do with unemployment - it has to do with the Fed and monetary policy. And if you've been following along in the newspapers, Ben Bernanke has been pursuing a QE2 policy, the goal of which is to devalue the dollar/increase inflation (If you want more info, pick up a WSJ and look into it - the reasoning behind it would take paragraphs to explain). Is the guy wrong? Very likely he is - as gas prices rise, Bernanke keeps saying that inflation for food/fuel doesn't matter, that only "core" inflation matters - the guy is an academic with no connection to the pain people are feeling.
The general idea is to "devalue our way to prosperity" - by devaluing the dollar, exports become cheaper, and therefore increase, which makes it look like the economy is picking up, even though inflation is cutting into peoples pocketbooks - you can thank Obama for that
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Second, that "serious talk" about dropping the dollar is coming from 2 countries - Iran and China. It's nothing but cheap talk from two countries who would like to see the US knocked down a few pegs - that said, there is some truth in it, since more and more countries are cutting contracts between each other that don't rely on dollar exchanges. Why? Because the dollar is devaluing, see above.
Lastly - WE ALREADY OWE TOO MUCH!! We have a $14 trillion economy, and guess what? We OWE almost $14 trillion. The problem with the budget isn't so much that we owe it to countries that really don't like us, it's that the interest payments will kill our economy - by 2019, it's estimated that we'll be paying more than $700 billion a year in interest payments alone.
Now tell me why we should increase Gov't spending? Tell me why cutting funding for the Cowboy Poetry Festival is just going too far, as Harry Reid recently said? Tell me why Harry Reid, when asked if entitlements were on the table said "maybe in a few decades"?
There are most certainly democrats in the senate willing to reform entitlements, but the bigwigs aren't among them. Health premiums have been rising faster under Obamacare than they were previously - you can't increase coverage and increase benefits, and expect premiums to drop. It's like if you drove a Ford pickup, then went out to try and buy a BMW, then said you want all the options, but expected to pay less than what you did for your pickup. You can't increase coverage and increase benefits and suddenly expect the price to drop.
ok, this is starting to sound like a rant, and I'm not touching it. All I can say is to chill out - every generation, it looks like the world is going off a cliff (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, recession, Great Recession, etc), and every generation it's saved, seemingly in its darkest hour.
At the end of the day, all we can do is sit back and shake our heads - not much we can do to change things except put the men and women into office we think can make the difference and then pray God helps them.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The private sector creates wealth, the Gov't is the one who redistributes it - the reason these companies hold "90%" of the money is because they're the ones who created it in the first place!!
Lastly - remember that no company is fixed in it's place. They can ALL pick themselves up and move to another State or another country if taxes get too high - that's why you're seeing business flee NY and CA, because of taxes. If State X confiscated 50% of the taxes, and State Y confiscates 20%, any business with the ability is going to fire all it's employees in State X and move itself to State Y. Now State X not only lost the tax revenue from that business, but it also gained people on it's unemployment rolls.