Home Non Cigar Related

Urgent news for military personnel

wwhwangwwhwang Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭
As everyone knows, Obama has demanded that the military take the brunt of cuts to the federal budget. Pensions, benefits, and military medical care may be affected. However, just in time for Independence Day, he's ask for a bigger cut to military spending. This even bigger cut may end up in the termination of 70,000 jobs in the US Army and the Marine Corps.

To all that have served or are still serving, thank you for your service. Keep your PT scores up and stay the hell out of trouble if this enormous cut goes as planned.

Source:
http://m.military.com/news/article/obama-hints-at-deeper-cuts-to-defense-spending.html?ESRC=dod.nl
«1

Comments

  • sdloco30sdloco30 Posts: 32
    I hope we can survive just one term with him in office...
  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    Worst part about this is these guys are going to be dumped into a really **** economy. Spending cuts are greatly needed even the defense needs to be trimmed. I'll pray for all troops that are affected by this in hopes they are speedily employed.
  • mfotismfotis Posts: 720 ✭✭
    I'm former mil and I think the DoD needs a fair bit of trimming. There is plenty of room to tighten the belt without effecting mil benies
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mfotis:
    I'm former mil and I think the DoD needs a fair bit of trimming. There is plenty of room to tighten the belt without effecting mil benies
    Same here. The answer need not be: "what? we need to cut? screw the troops!" I'm sure there are more productive answers if only someone is interested in looking.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    mfotis:
    I'm former mil and I think the DoD needs a fair bit of trimming. There is plenty of room to tighten the belt without effecting mil benies
    Problem is, the US is engaged in 3 wars and currently trying to turn over their munitions - from tankers to refuelers to the next generation fighter jets to turning over the nuke arsenal - a lot of the stuff in the military is decades old and needs to be turned over/bought new. One of the reasons Obama's New START treaty passed was he promised to turn over the US's nuke arsenal (decades old, getting undependable with age) - it's pretty much the ONLY reason McCain greenlighted it and it got passed

    Like it or not, troop pay is easy to cut - projections/internal reports say they can retain recruiting even after cutting pay. Between turning over decades-old gear and cutting troop pay, which do you think they're gonna do?

    The Pentagon has a budget of $550 billion, give or take; shaving 10% off is only $55 bill - and Obamacare is expected to cost around $2.3 trillion - there are better ways to get the money than cutting right now

    I'm not saying there's room to cut, but it always irks me when people say we need to cut NOW. Remember the no-body-armor-for-humvee's fiasco a few years ago? Budget cuts have consequences - we're engaged in 3 wars; the least we can do is wait until we start withdrawing before deciding what needs to be cut. Withdraw first, then decide what to cut.

  • Joeyjoe21_8Joeyjoe21_8 Posts: 2,048
    yeah...*** obama....goddam idiot who hates america with a passion.....our military takes the worst cut of all just for serving their country.....*** obamacare....2.3 trillion we could save right there!
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    Problem is, the US is engaged in 3 wars ...
    funny... last time i checked it was six.

    Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Iraq and Yemen


    Nobel Peace Prize winner...
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Vulchor:
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
    You forgot about those ever popular tax breaks when the country was/is in such a shaky financial position. I agree with your statement 100% and the same applies here in Canada. People want less government, smaller government, tax breaks, cuts to every govt. program that they don't personally support, but they would really like to see these things happen without changing things too much. WAKE THE *** UP PEOPLE. EVERYTHING costs money including having a huge military with hundreds of thousands of personell. During cuts like the ones needed in our countries right now... NOTHING should be off the block, and EVERY cent that can be saved or spent more wisely should be.
  • ENFIDLENFIDL Posts: 5,836
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    ENFIDL:
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.

    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.

    In my personal opinion in times like these when things are as drastic as they are today... EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be on the table and cuts should be right across the board. When things improve (if they do) to a point where you can afford to reinstitute these programs then it can be done without harming the economy.

    Everything in balance... or eventually everything will fly to pieces... that's a fact.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Vulchor:
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
    You don't change horses in mid-stream and you don't cut from the military when they're on the brink of victory. It can wait a year or two until after we've won.
    xmacro:
    The Pentagon has a budget of $550 billion, give or take; shaving 10% off is only $55 bill - and Obamacare is expected to cost around $2.3 trillion - there are better ways to get the money than cutting right now

    I'm not saying there's room to cut, but it always irks me when people say we need to cut NOW. Remember the no-body-armor-for-humvee's fiasco a few years ago? Budget cuts have consequences - we're engaged in 3 wars; the least we can do is wait until we start withdrawing before deciding what needs to be cut. Withdraw first, then decide what to cut.

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
    You don't change horses in mid-stream and you don't cut from the military when they're on the brink of victory. It can wait a year or two until after we've won.
    xmacro:
    The Pentagon has a budget of $550 billion, give or take; shaving 10% off is only $55 bill - and Obamacare is expected to cost around $2.3 trillion - there are better ways to get the money than cutting right now

    I'm not saying there's room to cut, but it always irks me when people say we need to cut NOW. Remember the no-body-armor-for-humvee's fiasco a few years ago? Budget cuts have consequences - we're engaged in 3 wars; the least we can do is wait until we start withdrawing before deciding what needs to be cut. Withdraw first, then decide what to cut.

    So as long as you stay at war the military is off limits ? Really?

    Not trying to be a dink here but... has there been a time when the US wasn't "at war" with someone in some capacity in the last 100 years? When exactly would be a good time for these fiscal decisions to be made?
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.
    So you're saying the US gets into wars on purpose to justify military expenditures? You're saying we intentionally send our troops to fight and die just so we can keep spending?

    Your argument doesn't make any sense; it's the typical liberal boogeyman, the military-industrial complex that's rumored to be at the root of all the worlds wars, right along with the Jews controlling all the worlds banking. It's a conspiracy theory that just never dies.
    laker1963:
    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.
    The US maintains a protective umbrella over Western Europe, SE Asia, Canada and Mexico - be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. Check this out: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/06/ap-nato-at-crossroads-after-gates-speech-061211/

    Basically, Defense Secretary Gates is saying that the US has been shouldering the burden for the world's defense for too long - we're bearing all the risk and costs, and the world is enjoying a free ride. It's time to cut back, which means countries are gonna have to start spending money on their own defense - this includes Europe, Asia and Canada. Time other countries start ponying up for their own defense and the US starts look out for itself a bit more

    laker1963:
    So as long as you stay at war the military is off limits ? Really?

    Not trying to be a dink here but... has there been a time when the US wasn't "at war" with someone in some capacity in the last 100 years? When exactly would be a good time for these fiscal decisions to be made?
    You're kidding, right? Or are you actually suggesting we're always engaged in wars without end? Vietnam ended - military spending was cut. Korean war ended, military spending was cut. Desert Storm ended, military spending was cut.

    Wars end, and military spending is cut. We can cut after our troops are home, not when they're out in the field getting shot at by some crazed islamist who think he's doing God's work by killing the infidels.

  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
    You don't change horses in mid-stream and you don't cut from the military when they're on the brink of victory. It can wait a year or two until after we've won.
    xmacro:
    The Pentagon has a budget of $550 billion, give or take; shaving 10% off is only $55 bill - and Obamacare is expected to cost around $2.3 trillion - there are better ways to get the money than cutting right now

    I'm not saying there's room to cut, but it always irks me when people say we need to cut NOW. Remember the no-body-armor-for-humvee's fiasco a few years ago? Budget cuts have consequences - we're engaged in 3 wars; the least we can do is wait until we start withdrawing before deciding what needs to be cut. Withdraw first, then decide what to cut.

    So as long as you stay at war the military is off limits ? Really?

    Not trying to be a dink here but... has there been a time when the US wasn't "at war" with someone in some capacity in the last 100 years? When exactly would be a good time for these fiscal decisions to be made?
    I'm sorry laker but it sure does piss me off when a canadian talks about our military spending. It's due to our giant standing army that you can do without much defense at all. Allowing you more for your social spending.

    xmarco how are we on the brink of victory? Spreading civilization to people who want no part of it is a hard fight to win.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.
    So you're saying the US gets into wars on purpose to justify military expenditures? You're saying we intentionally send our troops to fight and die just so we can keep spending?

    Your argument doesn't make any sense; it's the typical liberal boogeyman, the military-industrial complex that's rumored to be at the root of all the worlds wars, right along with the Jews controlling all the worlds banking. It's a conspiracy theory that just never dies.
    laker1963:
    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.
    The US maintains a protective umbrella over Western Europe, SE Asia, Canada and Mexico - be careful what you wish for. You might like this: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/06/ap-nato-at-crossroads-after-gates-speech-061211/

    Basically, Gates is saying that the US has been shouldering the burden for the world's defense for too long - we're bearing all the risk and costs, and the world is enjoying a free ride. It's time to cut back, which means countries are gonna have to start spending money on their own defense - this includes Europe, Asia and Canada. Time other countries start ponying up for their own defense.

    laker1963:
    So as long as you stay at war the military is off limits ? Really?

    Not trying to be a dink here but... has there been a time when the US wasn't "at war" with someone in some capacity in the last 100 years? When exactly would be a good time for these fiscal decisions to be made?
    You're kidding, right? Or are you actually suggesting we're always engaged in wars without end? Vietnam ended - military spending was cut. Korean war ended, military spending was cut. Desert Storm ended, military spending was cut.

    Wars end, and military spending is cut. We can cut after our troops are home, not when they're out in the field getting shot at by some crazed islamist who think he's doing God's work by killing the infidels.

    Macro I am NOT going to get into a back and forth with you on this opne.

    I NEVER said...So you're saying the US gets into wars on purpose to justify military expenditures? You're saying we intentionally send our troops to fight and die just so we can keep spending? I asked a question. You never provided a real answer.

    you stated ... Your argument doesn't make any sense; it's the typical liberal boogeyman, the military-industrial complex that's rumored to be at the root of all the worlds wars, right along with the Jews controlling all the worlds banking. It's a conspiracy theory that just never dies.

    Again...I never made an arguement I asked a question and you turned it into this. I also never labeled you a right wing fanatic or war monger or anything else, yet you come back aqt me with the "Liberal" label again. You don;t know me, and I assure you that is not the case.

    Your final statement was again just that a statement... not an answer. You took offense at what I was asking in all sincerity. When in the last 100 years has the US NOT been engaged in some military involvement which would prevent them from making fiscal decisions about the size and scope of the military. It seems that a new war begins before an old war ends and the fighting goes on and on. Please educate me Macro, it was a serious question, as I am not as up on US history as you are but from here I could NOT think of such a period of time.

    As far as protecting Canada... from who? Also Canada has been lacking in military equipment and personell for years without a single invasion from anyone. I know you will say that is because of the US, many would say it is because we don't have a lot of enimies around the world. That would be open for debate either way IMO.
  • ENFIDLENFIDL Posts: 5,836
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.

    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.

    In my personal opinion in times like these when things are as drastic as they are today... EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be on the table and cuts should be right across the board. When things improve (if they do) to a point where you can afford to reinstitute these programs then it can be done without harming the economy.

    Everything in balance... or eventually everything will fly to pieces... that's a fact.
    Go do a combat tour making crap for money, living in the middle of nowhere, with crappy living conditions, showers that rarely if ever work, people shooting at you, people setting ied's out for you to run over/by, having your friends get injured/killed, barely talking to you family because the phones and internet suck if you are lucky enough to have them on your base and then you tell me how it's ok to cut your pay and ask you to go back and do it all over again. That doesn't include leaving your wife, kids, friends and family behind and seeing that look in there eyes of will I ever see my dad, husband, son, etc again. That look can rip your soul out.
  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    As far as protecting Canada... from who? Also Canada has been lacking in military equipment and personell for years without a single invasion from anyone. I know you will say that is because of the US, many would say it is because we don't have a lot of enimies around the world. That would be open for debate either way IMO.
    Lets start with people who want oil. Which is kinda funny since we've been accused by many of waging war for oil, when if that was really the case we could surely pick a closer and less defended target.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    wwestern:
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    Trim Govt....Trim Govt....Trim Govt--------BUT dont touch the military (or any other area that is dear to me or effect me in a positive way)......this is the mantra EVERYTIME anything is done to cut spending of any kind, which is why we are in the boat we are today.
    You don't change horses in mid-stream and you don't cut from the military when they're on the brink of victory. It can wait a year or two until after we've won.
    xmacro:
    The Pentagon has a budget of $550 billion, give or take; shaving 10% off is only $55 bill - and Obamacare is expected to cost around $2.3 trillion - there are better ways to get the money than cutting right now

    I'm not saying there's room to cut, but it always irks me when people say we need to cut NOW. Remember the no-body-armor-for-humvee's fiasco a few years ago? Budget cuts have consequences - we're engaged in 3 wars; the least we can do is wait until we start withdrawing before deciding what needs to be cut. Withdraw first, then decide what to cut.

    So as long as you stay at war the military is off limits ? Really?

    Not trying to be a dink here but... has there been a time when the US wasn't "at war" with someone in some capacity in the last 100 years? When exactly would be a good time for these fiscal decisions to be made?
    I'm sorry laker but it sure does piss me off when a canadian talks about our military spending. It's due to our giant standing army that you can do without much defense at all. Allowing you more for your social spending.

    xmarco how are we on the brink of victory? Spreading civilization to people who want no part of it is a hard fight to win.
    I knew this would happen. Western... you think what you like about Canadian military spending and us relying on the US for our defense.

    It sure plays well in certain circles of discussion I know. Many also believe that we don't need very much defense because we don't have many enemies. You are entitled to your opinion Western... but it is just that... YOUR opinion, doesn't make it fact. We are resource rich, have a relitively small population so those resources go farther, and Canada has not had to go out into the world to find and secure resources for the future which has brought us into far less situations where we would be looked upon as trying to steal resources from poorer third world countries. This has lead to our present security situation far more then relying on the US for defense. What country did you last defend us from?
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    ENFIDL:
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.

    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.

    In my personal opinion in times like these when things are as drastic as they are today... EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be on the table and cuts should be right across the board. When things improve (if they do) to a point where you can afford to reinstitute these programs then it can be done without harming the economy.

    Everything in balance... or eventually everything will fly to pieces... that's a fact.
    Go do a combat tour making crap for money, living in the middle of nowhere, with crappy living conditions, showers that rarely if ever work, people shooting at you, people setting ied's out for you to run over/by, having your friends get injured/killed, barely talking to you family because the phones and internet suck if you are lucky enough to have them on your base and then you tell me how it's ok to cut your pay and ask you to go back and do it all over again. That doesn't include leaving your wife, kids, friends and family behind and seeing that look in there eyes of will I ever see my dad, husband, son, etc again. That look can rip your soul out.
    You said you weren't going to respond... LMAo it's hard not to isn't it?

    Enfidl, can you tell me where I said that the cuts to the military have to come from the enlisted ranks? You have put words into my arguement and are now argueing against them. I never said anything like what you seem to think. Where did that come from?

    If you guy's want to continue this discussion fine. BUT know right now that this is NOT a personal thing for me and I will not be engaging in name calling or labeling of people. If you want to talk about the topic GREAT I love a good discussion, but let's keep it civil and if you can't don't expect ANY kind of response from me. I am not trying to PISS off anyone, but I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else around here.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    Again...I never made an arguement I asked a question and you turned it into this. I also never labeled you a right wing fanatic or war monger or anything else, yet you come back aqt me with the "Liberal" label again. You don;t know me, and I assure you that is not the case.
    I took it that way because you made an absurd statement - the idea that we get into wars to continue spending on our military is just absurd.
    laker1963:
    Your final statement was again just that a statement... not an answer. You took offense at what I was asking in all sincerity. When in the last 100 years has the US NOT been engaged in some military involvement which would prevent them from making fiscal decisions about the size and scope of the military. It seems that a new war begins before an old war ends and the fighting goes on and on. Please educate me Macro, it was a serious question, as I am not as up on US history as you are but from here I could NOT think of such a period of time.
    True, the US is engaged in some type of military affair almost constantly - but not a full-on war. There's a difference between a military engagement and a war that's stretching our resources to their max. My argument is that although the military can be cut, it's not the right time because our resources are stretched too thin. It can wait until our troops are drawn down from Iraq/Afghanistan.
    laker1963:
    As far as protecting Canada... from who? Also Canada has been lacking in military equipment and personell for years without a single invasion from anyone. I know you will say that is because of the US, many would say it is because we don't have a lot of enimies around the world. That would be open for debate either way IMO.
    You're from the West, aren't you? You believe women have the same rights as men, that democracy is a good idea, that theocracy is a bad idea?

    Anyone who believes in Western values has enemies in people who dream of a global caliphate, of the global dominance of militant islam. It might sound cliche, in this day and age, but there are people in the world who still dream of global dictatorships.
  • ENFIDLENFIDL Posts: 5,836
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.

    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.

    In my personal opinion in times like these when things are as drastic as they are today... EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be on the table and cuts should be right across the board. When things improve (if they do) to a point where you can afford to reinstitute these programs then it can be done without harming the economy.

    Everything in balance... or eventually everything will fly to pieces... that's a fact.
    Go do a combat tour making crap for money, living in the middle of nowhere, with crappy living conditions, showers that rarely if ever work, people shooting at you, people setting ied's out for you to run over/by, having your friends get injured/killed, barely talking to you family because the phones and internet suck if you are lucky enough to have them on your base and then you tell me how it's ok to cut your pay and ask you to go back and do it all over again. That doesn't include leaving your wife, kids, friends and family behind and seeing that look in there eyes of will I ever see my dad, husband, son, etc again. That look can rip your soul out.
    You said you weren't going to respond... LMAo it's hard not to isn't it?

    Enfidl, can you tel me where I said that the cuts to the military have to come from the enlisted ranks? You have put words into my arguement ad are now argueing against them. I never said anything like what you seem to think. Where did that come from?

    If you guy's want to continue this discussion fine. BUT know right now that this is NOT a personal thing for me and I will not be engaging in name calling or labeling of people. If you want to talk about the topic GREAT I love a good discussion, but let's keep it civil and if you can't don't expect ANY kind of response from me. I am not trying to PISS off anyone, but I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else around here.
    Regardless of where the cuts are made in the military it's gonna affect everybody. Enlisted, officer, civilian personnel it all runs downhill. You didn't say that it would come from the enlisted ranks but regardless of where it happens it affects everybody. Whenever moral drops, concentration drops and when that happens people get killed. That's the nature of the beast. I never attacked you personally I was just saying that until you've been in the situation don't say where the money can/should come from is all.

    And yes it's hard not too....lol
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    Again...I never made an arguement I asked a question and you turned it into this. I also never labeled you a right wing fanatic or war monger or anything else, yet you come back at me with the "Liberal" label again. You don't know me, and I assure you that is not the case.
    I took it that way because you made an absurd statement - the idea that we get into wars to continue spending on our military is just absurd. OK, so would you agree that your economy relies heavily on your military and its' spending? I never stated it the way you said I did, and it wasn't absurd. Can you ever discuss things without doing that? Can't you just disagree?
    laker1963:
    Your final statement was again just that a statement... not an answer. You took offense at what I was asking in all sincerity. When in the last 100 years has the US NOT been engaged in some military involvement which would prevent them from making fiscal decisions about the size and scope of the military. It seems that a new war begins before an old war ends and the fighting goes on and on. Please educate me Macro, it was a serious question, as I am not as up on US history as you are but from here I could NOT think of such a period of time.
    True, the US is engaged in some type of military affair almost constantly - but not a full-on war. There's a difference between a military engagement and a war that's stretching our resources to their max. My argument is that although the military can be cut, it's not the right time because our resources are stretched too thin. It can wait until our troops are drawn down from Iraq/Afghanistan. Here, you seem to be agreeing to what I was saying above but you prefer to distinguish between a "war" and other military excercises. I don't... cause they all cost money and are a root part of the fiscal problems in your country right now.
    laker1963:
    As far as protecting Canada... from who? Also Canada has been lacking in military equipment and personell for years without a single invasion from anyone. I know you will say that is because of the US, many would say it is because we don't have a lot of enimies around the world. That would be open for debate either way IMO.
    You're from the West, aren't you? You believe women have the same rights as men, that democracy is a good idea, that theocracy is a bad idea?

    Anyone who believes in Western values has enemies in people who dream of a global caliphate, of the global dominance of militant islam
    I personally don't have ANY enemies. I also do NOT believe that people who are NOT from the west fall into the category of people you just stated. People are different everywhere. Why do you have this desire to paint everyone from a country you don't like as an enemy? I am sure there are people exactly like you describe in those places, but you seem to think that everyone in a place where the US is involved in a conflict is an enemy. You remember me... I'm the guy who doesn't believe that ALL Palestinians are terrorists. In amongst the terrorists are people who are trying to raise their family in a situation that you or I could never imagine all the while being considered either terrorists or terrorists sympathizers, and therefore relagated to receiving no help whatsoever from the US or anybody else.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    ENFIDL:
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    laker1963:
    ENFIDL:
    I usually don't get involved in these discussions and anybody who disagrees with what I say don't bother to reply because I'm not going to respond to it. This is in response to anyone who thinks that military size, pay and benefits need to be cut.

    Cutting military pay and the size is ludicrous.

    You are talking about people who are doing 7-12+ month tours in a place where people are actively trying to kill them. The deployment tempo is high across the board for operational units and if you cut people away then that tempo increases drastically! I have friends who have done 4 and 5 combat tours in 8 years. That's an insane amount of time spent fighting.

    Monetarily and beneficially cutting them is disgraceful. Military pay is very low. You have men and women putting their lives on the line for next to nothing. As a Sgt in the Marines with 4 years of service when I went to Iraq I was making 100 bucks a day. Which is low, break that down to hourly wage that's $4.20 an hour. Junior service members make even less, a lot less. So even based on my pay would you take a job for $4.20 an hour, you are on 24/7 there's no real off time, where you have people trying to kill you and any moment could be your last? I seriously doubt most anybody here would. Any you want these people to take a pay cut and lose benefits? That's downright ridiculous and disrespectful.
    So maybe fewer wars might be an answer?

    Does a HUGE military lead to the need to use it? When your economy is so tied to your military expenditures, it can be argued that you need to keep fighting in order to keep the economy going.

    The size of the military and the costs of the personell involved is only one thing in a long list of military spending which could be looked at.

    In my personal opinion in times like these when things are as drastic as they are today... EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be on the table and cuts should be right across the board. When things improve (if they do) to a point where you can afford to reinstitute these programs then it can be done without harming the economy.

    Everything in balance... or eventually everything will fly to pieces... that's a fact.
    Go do a combat tour making crap for money, living in the middle of nowhere, with crappy living conditions, showers that rarely if ever work, people shooting at you, people setting ied's out for you to run over/by, having your friends get injured/killed, barely talking to you family because the phones and internet suck if you are lucky enough to have them on your base and then you tell me how it's ok to cut your pay and ask you to go back and do it all over again. That doesn't include leaving your wife, kids, friends and family behind and seeing that look in there eyes of will I ever see my dad, husband, son, etc again. That look can rip your soul out.
    You said you weren't going to respond... LMAo it's hard not to isn't it?

    Enfidl, can you tel me where I said that the cuts to the military have to come from the enlisted ranks? You have put words into my arguement ad are now argueing against them. I never said anything like what you seem to think. Where did that come from?

    If you guy's want to continue this discussion fine. BUT know right now that this is NOT a personal thing for me and I will not be engaging in name calling or labeling of people. If you want to talk about the topic GREAT I love a good discussion, but let's keep it civil and if you can't don't expect ANY kind of response from me. I am not trying to PISS off anyone, but I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else around here.
    Regardless of where the cuts are made in the military it's gonna affect everybody. Enlisted, officer, civilian personnel it all runs downhill. You didn't say that it would come from the enlisted ranks but regardless of where it happens it affects everybody. Whenever moral drops, concentration drops and when that happens people get killed. That's the nature of the beast. I never attacked you personally I was just saying that until you've been in the situation don't say where the money can/should come from is all.

    And yes it's hard not too....lol
    Again, I will just state that I never said the money should come from the rank. You made that assumption and went form there. I never thought for a minute that you were attacking me bro', not at all. I will state here for the record that if you are going to send people all over the world on your country's behalf then you owe it to them to provide them with everything they need to do the job you sent them there for in the first place.

    That statement goes for military and non military excercises. We will just have to disagree on wether money can be found without it affecting the troops.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    I personally don't have ANY enemies. I also do NOT believe that people who are NOT from the west fall into the category of people you just stated. People are different everywhere. Why do you have this desire to paint everyone from a country you don't like as an enemy? I am sure there are people exactly like you describe in those places, but you seem to think that everyone in a place where the US is involved in a conflict is an enemy. You remember me... I'm the guy who doesn't believe that ALL Palestinians are terrorists. In amongst the terrorists are people who are trying to raise their family in a situation that you or I could never imagine all the while being considered either terrorists or terrorists sympathizers, and therefore relagated to receiving no help whatsoever from the US or anybody else.
    Did I ever SAY I believe everyone falls into that category? Now you're the one making assumptions on my beliefs. Is every Palestinian a terrorist? Of course not! But a sizeable amount of them are intent on blowing other people up.

    It doesn't take all of a country, or even a majority, to wage a war - it only takes a small number of fanatics who are intent on killing everyone who doesn't follow their way - which is exactly what we have - a minority of arabs who believe in a global caliphate, and are willing to kill anyone and everyone who gets in their way.

    These are people who don't care that you never did anything to them; the fact that you exist is enough to hate you. Like I said, it's cliche to think there's still such people in the world, but there are. Just because people like Hitler are dead, doesn't mean that irrational hatred and murderous intent died too.
  • roland_7707roland_7707 Posts: 2,833 ✭✭✭
    The kids don't like it when the parents argue, just saying.
    One God, One Truth
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    There is always an enemy....and doesnt there have to be when we sink as much as we do into defense? This debate has turned from a decent one into one saying a guy from Canada isnt entitled to voice his opinion because he lives to our north and about cutting front line pay...which I dont think anyone here ever stated was the way to cut spending anywhere.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    I personally don't have ANY enemies. I also do NOT believe that people who are NOT from the west fall into the category of people you just stated. People are different everywhere. Why do you have this desire to paint everyone from a country you don't like as an enemy? I am sure there are people exactly like you describe in those places, but you seem to think that everyone in a place where the US is involved in a conflict is an enemy. You remember me... I'm the guy who doesn't believe that ALL Palestinians are terrorists. In amongst the terrorists are people who are trying to raise their family in a situation that you or I could never imagine all the while being considered either terrorists or terrorists sympathizers, and therefore relagated to receiving no help whatsoever from the US or anybody else.
    Did I ever SAY I believe everyone falls into that category? Now you're the one making assumptions on my beliefs. Is every Palestinian a terrorist? Of course not! But a sizeable amount of them are intent on blowing other people up.

    It doesn't take all of a country, or even a majority, to wage a war - it only takes a small number of fanatics who are intent on killing everyone who doesn't follow their way - which is exactly what we have - a minority of arabs who believe in a global caliphate, and are willing to kill anyone and everyone who gets in their way.

    These are people who don't care that you never did anything to them; the fact that you exist is enough to hate you. Like I said, it's cliche to think there's still such people in the world, but there are. Just because people like Hitler are dead, doesn't mean that irrational hatred and murderous intent died too.
    OK I can agree with that. So are you saying it is somehow the US role to go around the world and take these types of people out? I would argue that it would be more effective and much much cheaper to ignore these people unless they try to come or bring that sh it to your country. Why go looking for it, particularly during times of such economic struggle? You never said you included the whole of any country, but you also never clarified that you thought otherwise and the way you wrote what you said lead me to make the statement I did about how you percieve an enemy. My apologies.
  • mfotismfotis Posts: 720 ✭✭
    I was trying not to comment on this again to no avail. There are plenty of places to cut the DoD budget that will not affect the troops on the front line, middle line or in the rear. Mil budget cuts are not synomous with the lowly grunt getting the shaft. There is plenty of frivilous spending in the G to include the DoD.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Didnt Eisnhower warn us about somthing with money, and military, and -----ehhhh, nevermind-----we have an axis of evil here afterall.
Sign In or Register to comment.