I am going to chime in here and as usual I will likely piss off some people, but that's never stopped me before
There is NOT a problem here with trades, the traders list, or in the particular situation which brought this whole thing to light.
Think about it, we have a loose system of rating trades and traders and because of it working the way it was intended we are having this discussion. Nobody skated over this, nobody got away with something they shouldn't have. The system worked just fine.
The problem was and is (as I see it, of course) the way the discussion turned into a pile on session and then that distracted the conversation away from the incident to what we can do about it.
I am going to state here right now that I believe the biggest problem we are having at the forums are that there are so many newer members who want to jump right into the mix and start enjoying the priviledges of membership to put it another way.
When we were not such a large group, new people would drop by introduce themselves (sometimes) and get involved into discussions for a while until they learned who was who and how things worked and things ran smoothly.
We have had such a huge influx of new members that in many cases I have read about trades between peeps I haven't even heard of. When there are such a large number of trades going on at the same time it becomes mayhem. I can see where people who get tied up in the trades and passes could easily get carried away and before they know it they are promising sticks to so many BOTL that they can't even keep their own deals straight.
The perception that there are a group of people who want to hide behind bad trades or whatever by NOT calling someone out is incorrect. The reason that many BOTL here don't want to call someone out is that at one time we were a VERY patient group of BOTL who realized that life does get in the way sometimes and that given time or maybe a PM reminder that transactions always seemed to work themselves out. The peer pressure, vouch safe method of recommending a person for a trade worked flawlessly. Comments posted after the deal were to serve for others to see how the trade went, to learn what others out there were smoking and to give an opportunity for BOTL to share in some sticks that were not available to all, this too worked great... and then
I don't want to sound like I am dumping on new BOTL here, that is NOT it. I am just saying that in the rush to become a "member in good standing" we had new peeps trying all sorts of things from asking to do early trades (before 25 posts) running contests as a way to get known (great idea), bombing members to get mentioned on the good traders list etc. In other words we were doing what humans always do, look at a system and then try to figure out a way to make the system work advantageously for us as individuals.
It is this rush to become one of the recognized BOTL here at the forums (I believe) that has caused much of the turmoil around here the last year or so. I know this may sound extreme and I don't even know if I believe it is the best solution, but I think it would be something to consider to have new members NOT take part in trades, passes or games for an agreed upon time. ( 1 month, more ?) This would allow the BOTL at the forums to get to know the person a little better through reading posts and seeing a persons opinion on various topics of discussion. Then after the period of time was over the newer BOTL could get involved with everything offered here. All this does is to slow things down a bit and allow people to get to know who you are before getting into a trade situation. I honestly feel that the rate of new members and the rush of bombs and such by people trying to get forum cred. is at the root of all of this. New members used to accept the minimum 25 post count and sending out their end of trades for the first one at least as a way of getting onto the good traders list. Now many are trying to run an end play around the established method, and short cuts a are leading to problems.
I know someone will point out that in this case the person we are talking about is NOT a new member. But I would point out that with the number of reported problems since the first issue came to light, that these problems have gone on for some time.
I don't think we have a broken system, I think we just have some over eager BOTL who want to get in on the fun. It would be a shame if through trying to fix it, we screwed up a whole system only to find it wasn't the system that was broke. Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
I agree that we don't need to overhaul anything. I'm just saying let's post incidents when they occur in a calm and rational, fact-oriented manner, and take them with the grain of salt they should be taken with if they are isolated and well-resolved. There is this harmful negative stigma attached to saying anything other than "This guy is awesome!!!" right now that I feel needs to go away. If anything, it'll make "This guy is awesome!!!" posts mean more.
And, for what its worth, I'm saying this with no incidents to report. The strongest part of this solution, perhaps, is that if it is truly unnecessary it'll quickly be buried on Page 100 of the forum and never be seen again, whereas if it is necessary it will be clearly visible.
+1,000. Ken Light just got my vote for forum commissioner.
I am going to chime in here and as usual I will likely piss off some people, but that's never stopped me before
There is NOT a problem here with trades, the traders list, or in the particular situation which brought this whole thing to light.
Think about it, we have a loose system of rating trades and traders and because of it working the way it was intended we are having this discussion. Nobody skated over this, nobody got away with something they shouldn't have. The system worked just fine.
The problem was and is (as I see it, of course) the way the discussion turned into a pile on session and then that distracted the conversation away from the incident to what we can do about it.
I am going to state here right now that I believe the biggest problem we are having at the forums are that there are so many newer members who want to jump right into the mix and start enjoying the priviledges of membership to put it another way.
When we were not such a large group, new people would drop by introduce themselves (sometimes) and get involved into discussions for a while until they learned who was who and how things worked and things ran smoothly.
We have had such a huge influx of new members that in many cases I have read about trades between peeps I haven't even heard of. When there are such a large number of trades going on at the same time it becomes mayhem. I can see where people who get tied up in the trades and passes could easily get carried away and before they know it they are promising sticks to so many BOTL that they can't even keep their own deals straight.
The perception that there are a group of people who want to hide behind bad trades or whatever by NOT calling someone out is incorrect. The reason that many BOTL here don't want to call someone out is that at one time we were a VERY patient group of BOTL who realized that life does get in the way sometimes and that given time or maybe a PM reminder that transactions always seemed to work themselves out. The peer pressure, vouch safe method of recommending a person for a trade worked flawlessly. Comments posted after the deal were to serve for others to see how the trade went, to learn what others out there were smoking and to give an opportunity for BOTL to share in some sticks that were not available to all, this too worked great... and then
I don't want to sound like I am dumping on new BOTL here, that is NOT it. I am just saying that in the rush to become a "member in good standing" we had new peeps trying all sorts of things from asking to do early trades (before 25 posts) running contests as a way to get known (great idea), bombing members to get mentioned on the good traders list etc. In other words we were doing what humans always do, look at a system and then try to figure out a way to make the system work advantageously for us as individuals.
It is this rush to become one of the recognized BOTL here at the forums (I believe) that has caused much of the turmoil around here the last year or so. I know this may sound extreme and I don't even know if I believe it is the best solution, but I think it would be something to consider to have new members NOT take part in trades, passes or games for an agreed upon time. ( 1 month, more ?) This would allow the BOTL at the forums to get to know the person a little better through reading posts and seeing a persons opinion on various topics of discussion. Then after the period of time was over the newer BOTL could get involved with everything offered here. All this does is to slow things down a bit and allow people to get to know who you are before getting into a trade situation. I honestly feel that the rate of new members and the rush of bombs and such by people trying to get forum cred. is at the root of all of this. New members used to accept the minimum 25 post count and sending out their end of trades for the first one at least as a way of getting onto the good traders list. Now many are trying to run an end play around the established method, and short cuts a are leading to problems.
I know someone will point out that in this case the person we are talking about is NOT a new member. But I would point out that with the number of reported problems since the first issue came to light, that these problems have gone on for some time.
I don't think we have a broken system, I think we just have some over eager BOTL who want to get in on the fun. It would be a shame if through trying to fix it, we screwed up a whole system only to find it wasn't the system that was broke. Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
Some I agree with some I do not! I still have no clue what Happened but it seems like whats happened with many people before and not called out.
I agree that we don't need to overhaul anything. I'm just saying let's post incidents when they occur in a calm and rational, fact-oriented manner, and take them with the grain of salt they should be taken with if they are isolated and well-resolved. There is this harmful negative stigma attached to saying anything other than "This guy is awesome!!!" right now that I feel needs to go away. If anything, it'll make "This guy is awesome!!!" posts mean more.
And, for what its worth, I'm saying this with no incidents to report. The strongest part of this solution, perhaps, is that if it is truly unnecessary it'll quickly be buried on Page 100 of the forum and never be seen again, whereas if it is necessary it will be clearly visible.
+1,000. Ken Light just got my vote for forum commissioner.
Totally agree with all of this... i think things here are fine... the main thing I've taken from all of this is we have a solid community who looks out for each other... just my opinion
Its good to see Ken & a few others feel the same way I do. When I was first posting here a trade with 2 members unknown to me went bad, & after pm'ing for months & getting no response the guy posted on here how he got ripped off. He explained thoroughly how he waited patiently & he even posted pictures of the destroyed product he received. Basically this guy got thoroughly REAMED by all the forum regulars, and I stated I would never trade because this was obviously a "good ol boys" club. I pissed a lot of poeple off but its the truth that I didn't trade for another 3 months because of what I saw. People get along well here, & if there is an incident we should be allowed to post it without everyone attacking the reporter. Fact always come to light in the end & the people usually resolve the issue. I just wanted to add my 2 cents about how a forum attitude of "don't be a rat/crybaby just suck it up" made me not get involved for a few months. The system isn't broke, so lets not mess with it. Unless of course CCOM can get a trade reporting system that links to your forum username, which keeps track of all the responses others leave about trades with you. Otherwise I say its working fine for me now.
Its good to see Ken & a few others feel the same way I do. When I was first posting here a trade with 2 members unknown to me went bad, & after pm'ing for months & getting no response the guy posted on here how he got ripped off. He explained thoroughly how he waited patiently & he even posted pictures of the destroyed product he received. Basically this guy got thoroughly REAMED by all the forum regulars, and I stated I would never trade because this was obviously a "good ol boys" club. I pissed a lot of poeple off but its the truth that I didn't trade for another 3 months because of what I saw. People get along well here, & if there is an incident we should be allowed to post it without everyone attacking the reporter. Fact always come to light in the end & the people usually resolve the issue. I just wanted to add my 2 cents about how a forum attitude of "don't be a rat/crybaby just suck it up" made me not get involved for a few months. The system isn't broke, so lets not mess with it. Unless of course CCOM can get a trade reporting system that links to your forum username, which keeps track of all the responses others leave about trades with you. Otherwise I say its working fine for me now.
I don't trade or bomb so my opinion is pretty worthless on this matter, but I've been on for a while. I definitely wouldn't say it's a good ol boys club. I'd say it's a "let's give someone the benefit of the doubt and or be understanding that something happened on the homefront before jumping on his *** club." This forum seems to work pretty well as currently constituted and I think something like what Ken mentions is probably a pretty easy solution to something that just doesn't come up very much (maybe 5 times total since I've been on).
****_ I get a JOB disapear from the forums for a while due to INSANE BUSY LIFE and I miss all the GREAT ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED HERE DD......... From What I See ............... LOL I hate to Say I told you all so!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PM DD and let me in on the Goodies!
Was wondering when you were going to jump in on this......
Joe----maybe you should just stay out of this one or not start with Oz huh? I think alot of people here want to give you the benfit of the doubt and not see you bad mouthed----truth or not, and just try and be civil or move on.......Getting it all going again, foot in mouth, seems not the best idea here...just sayin man.
I agree that we don't need to overhaul anything. I'm just saying let's post incidents when they occur in a calm and rational, fact-oriented manner, and take them with the grain of salt they should be taken with if they are isolated and well-resolved. There is this harmful negative stigma attached to saying anything other than "This guy is awesome!!!" right now that I feel needs to go away. If anything, it'll make "This guy is awesome!!!" posts mean more.
And, for what its worth, I'm saying this with no incidents to report. The strongest part of this solution, perhaps, is that if it is truly unnecessary it'll quickly be buried on Page 100 of the forum and never be seen again, whereas if it is necessary it will be clearly visible.
+1,000. Ken Light just got my vote for forum commissioner.
+2000
I was just going to let this die without chiming in, but since I've been involved with several trades/passes/contests, I'll go ahead and add my $.02 too.
First, I think it is AMAZING that so many trades go over so well amongst a bunch of people scattered all over the world who have never met face to face (in most instances anyway). In situations where a trade doesn't work out, the BOTL on the short end of the stick can try to resolve it privately but may end up just eating it and learn his lesson about the offender, but if that offender continues to screw up there will inevitably be grumbling on the board and it will eventually come to light. This seems to be how things work and I thnk that works just fine. If we can just avoid the piling on and the pissing contests, then I agree that both the positive AND the negative regarding BOTLs needs to be put out there for everyone's benefit. Like Ken said, if it is unnecessary the thread will just drop off. But if the thread gains legs, it's probably proof that it was necessary.
We're all adults here (well, most of us anyway...Lassie?? ;-) just kidding bro), and we can make our own decisions about trades etc.
And I've never had a trade go bad, so maybe I'm talking out of my a$$ because I'm not sure how I would react until I was put in that situation.
****_ I get a JOB disapear from the forums for a while due to INSANE BUSY LIFE and I miss all the GREAT ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED HERE DD......... From What I See ............... LOL I hate to Say I told you all so!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PM DD and let me in on the Goodies!
Was wondering when you were going to jump in on this......
As you can tell I didnt Jump in on anything... YOU JUST DID ON ME ! I dont see any m,ention of you .. as amatter of fact I had no clue what it was about... Do u see any reference to you? LOL
****_ I get a JOB disapear from the forums for a while due to INSANE BUSY LIFE and I miss all the GREAT ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED HERE DD......... From What I See ............... LOL I hate to Say I told you all so!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PM DD and let me in on the Goodies!
Was wondering when you were going to jump in on this......
As you can tell I didnt Jump in on anything... YOU JUST DID ON ME ! I dont see any m,ention of you .. as amatter of fact I had no clue what it was about... Do u see any reference to you? LOL
I usually stay out of stuff like this, but ....technically Oz, anyone who has been on this forum knows who you are talking about. But you did mention Joey indirectly.
The whole time I've been on this forum, this is only the 2nd time I've seen an issue with trading. IMO, I don't think this warrants a vast overhaul of the boards nor a drastic change when what we do now.
Thats the whole point, not everything is spoken about, people don't want to cause problems, people don't know if they are over-reacting etc....just because something isn't spoken about doesn't mean it isn't a problem more than people know...I had no idea 4+ members were having/had similar issues and the reason why?, because nobody said anything about it to anyone publicly anyways...how would any of you personally feel about setting up a trade with another member or bombing another member that has 4 or 5 or more people that have had issues with trades etc because you simply did not know because nobody spoke about it, maybe you set up a nice high end trade that falls apart, see how ya feel after that lol....This goes beyond the person involved in the original situation, I've not had bad dealings with him but I certainly would not trade with ANYONE based on other members bad experiences or at least I would like to be able to consider for myself whether I would or not based on information...
Anyone remember about a year ago when Joey collected an insane ammount of sticks and bombed the *** out of our troops? I thought that was pretty cool.
Thanks western but I never got pics so dont know how many people think it was truthful but I have a half bag left, and im adding a ton of more to that bag and sending to RCY tommorrow after work along with rst of my stuff to finish up.....This time pics will be requested and RCY can throw them up on the forums.
I usually stay out of stuff like this, but ....technically Oz, anyone who has been on this forum knows who you are talking about. But you did mention Joey indirectly.
Or, alternately, we could go with something like this....
Hi Oz, been a while since we've seen you. Sorry we didn't listen to you and half of us completely flamed you for trying to warn us about something like this, looks like you might have been on to something. You've always been a solid BOTL and I guess maybe we should have paid a little MORE attention to the message you were sending and a little LESS the tone you sent it in - perhaps a few less BOTL would have had to deal with this if we had.
The whole time I've been on this forum, this is only the 2nd time I've seen an issue with trading. IMO, I don't think this warrants a vast overhaul of the boards nor a drastic change when what we do now.
Thats the whole point, not everything is spoken about, people don't want to cause problems, people don't know if they are over-reacting etc....just because something isn't spoken about doesn't mean it isn't a problem more than people know...I had no idea 4+ members were having/had similar issues and the reason why?, because nobody said anything about it to anyone publicly anyways...how would any of you personally feel about setting up a trade with another member or bombing another member that has 4 or 5 or more people that have had issues with trades etc because you simply did not know because nobody spoke about it, maybe you set up a nice high end trade that falls apart, see how ya feel after that lol....This goes beyond the person involved in the original situation, I've not had bad dealings with him but I certainly would not trade with ANYONE based on other members bad experiences or at least I would like to be able to consider for myself whether I would or not based on information...
Truth is if there seemed to be a problem with a trader, it eventually gets known. Might not right away, but a bad trader reputation does come out. I don't mind a bad traders thread, all I was saying all the trades I've been a part of went without issue. Bad traders here at ccom are the exception, which is rare compared to a lot of forums out there. I still don't see a need to revamp the way we do trades here. I would hate to see a big global change occur just for one bad apple.
I usually stay out of stuff like this, but ....technically Oz, anyone who has been on this forum knows who you are talking about. But you did mention Joey indirectly.
Or, alternately, we could go with something like this....
Hi Oz, been a while since we've seen you. Sorry we didn't listen to you and half of us completely flamed you for trying to warn us about something like this, looks like you might have been on to something. You've always been a solid BOTL and I guess maybe we should have paid a little MORE attention to the message you were sending and a little LESS the tone you sent it in - perhaps a few less BOTL would have had to deal with this if we had.
Appreciate you brother, welcome back.
+1, with a big ol' BUT.
**BUT** really the problem with the previous (let's just call it a) 'discussion' between Oz and Joey was that it was all left too vague. Honestly, I have no idea what happened there, just that, in the end, Oz felt slighted (understatement probably). At least in my case, I think the facts of the transaction would have done wonders for my interpretation of the dispute. That is, I would have been able to interpret it at all, which is what's important here in the end, right? Making our own judgments based on the best information we can come up with?
... in the end, Oz felt slighted (understatement probably).
As well he should have. I thought Ozzie was a well-respected BOTL on these forums, and the (BIG WORD OF THE DAY ALERT!) alacrity with which he was flamed by a BUNCH of other BOTL because of his tone when he was trying to warn us about a potential problem instead of listening to what he had to say.
To rub salt in the wound, a bunch of us (five at the time including myself, and that list has since grown to nine if anyone's curious) who had firsthand problems of our own regarding trades, etc with the individual in question sat back on our keesters and said NOTHING while Oz was getting flamed because we didnt want to "rock the boat" or have "forum drama" attached to our names - when all it would have taken to bring this issue to full light was for enough of us to do the right thing by standing up and backing Oz when he spoke the truth.
I, for one, AM NOT going to let that happen again. If there was anyone who has tried to do the right thing by people we all call brothers from jump, its been Ozzie and bip. I think if you asked Oz, even he would admit he didnt do it in the most politically correct manner... and lets face it, thats Oz being Oz. LOL If you want political correctness, best look somewhere else.
I will go on record with two apologies right now - first to Oz for not standing up with you the first go round. Despite that, you stuck with me and remained a friend. Much respect brother, you continue to set an example.
Secondly, to the BOTL who have had difficulties with the individual in question SINCE Oz called BS last time - part of what you dealt with is my fault because I was a coward who didnt want to get involved. I own it and Im truly sorry.
... in the end, Oz felt slighted (understatement probably).
As well he should have. I thought Ozzie was a well-respected BOTL on these forums, and the (BIG WORD OF THE DAY ALERT!) alacrity with which he was flamed by a BUNCH of other BOTL because of his tone when he was trying to warn us about a potential problem instead of listening to what he had to say.
To rub salt in the wound, a bunch of us (five at the time including myself, and that list has since grown to nine if anyone's curious) who had firsthand problems of our own regarding trades, etc with the individual in question sat back on our keesters and said NOTHING while Oz was getting flamed because we didnt want to "rock the boat" or have "forum drama" attached to our names - when all it would have taken to bring this issue to full light was for enough of us to do the right thing by standing up and backing Oz when he spoke the truth.
I, for one, AM NOT going to let that happen again. If there was anyone who has tried to do the right thing by people we all call brothers from jump, its been Ozzie and bip. I think if you asked Oz, even he would admit he didnt do it in the most politically correct manner... and lets face it, thats Oz being Oz. LOL If you want political correctness, best look somewhere else.
I will go on record with two apologies right now - first to Oz for not standing up with you the first go round. Despite that, you stuck with me and remained a friend. Much respect brother, you continue to set an example.
Secondly, to the BOTL who have had difficulties with the individual in question SINCE Oz called BS last time - part of what you dealt with is my fault because I was a coward who didnt want to get involved. I own it and Im truly sorry.
haha....just say my name bro...its cool.....Ill be shipping some stuff out tommorrow after work, then ill be gone from the boards for good.
Anyone remember about a year ago when Joey collected an insane ammount of sticks and bombed the *** out of our troops? I thought that was pretty cool.
You kinda hit the nail on the head yourself with this post wwestern. And before I go any farther, let me put this in all caps before the flamethrowers get fired up - THIS IS ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL.
Somewhere on the order of a YEAR ago.
No DC numbers to be found. Not one.
Not a single picture from a single grateful troop.
Not a single post or letter from a single grateful troop.
And a YEAR LATER, there is still half a bag of cigars laying around? When there are THREE USO locations an hour and a half drive away? That's disturbing enough.
More disturbing is the fact that the whereabouts of the half a bag not sitting around cant be verified. ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL. Had a bunch of people who donated cigars wondering though....
I am going to chime in here and as usual I will likely piss off some people, but that's never stopped me before
There is NOT a problem here with trades, the traders list, or in the particular situation which brought this whole thing to light.
Think about it, we have a loose system of rating trades and traders and because of it working the way it was intended we are having this discussion. Nobody skated over this, nobody got away with something they shouldn't have. The system worked just fine.
The problem was and is (as I see it, of course) the way the discussion turned into a pile on session and then that distracted the conversation away from the incident to what we can do about it.
I am going to state here right now that I believe the biggest problem we are having at the forums are that there are so many newer members who want to jump right into the mix and start enjoying the priviledges of membership to put it another way.
When we were not such a large group, new people would drop by introduce themselves (sometimes) and get involved into discussions for a while until they learned who was who and how things worked and things ran smoothly.
We have had such a huge influx of new members that in many cases I have read about trades between peeps I haven't even heard of. When there are such a large number of trades going on at the same time it becomes mayhem. I can see where people who get tied up in the trades and passes could easily get carried away and before they know it they are promising sticks to so many BOTL that they can't even keep their own deals straight.
The perception that there are a group of people who want to hide behind bad trades or whatever by NOT calling someone out is incorrect. The reason that many BOTL here don't want to call someone out is that at one time we were a VERY patient group of BOTL who realized that life does get in the way sometimes and that given time or maybe a PM reminder that transactions always seemed to work themselves out. The peer pressure, vouch safe method of recommending a person for a trade worked flawlessly. Comments posted after the deal were to serve for others to see how the trade went, to learn what others out there were smoking and to give an opportunity for BOTL to share in some sticks that were not available to all, this too worked great... and then
I don't want to sound like I am dumping on new BOTL here, that is NOT it. I am just saying that in the rush to become a "member in good standing" we had new peeps trying all sorts of things from asking to do early trades (before 25 posts) running contests as a way to get known (great idea), bombing members to get mentioned on the good traders list etc. In other words we were doing what humans always do, look at a system and then try to figure out a way to make the system work advantageously for us as individuals.
It is this rush to become one of the recognized BOTL here at the forums (I believe) that has caused much of the turmoil around here the last year or so. I know this may sound extreme and I don't even know if I believe it is the best solution, but I think it would be something to consider to have new members NOT take part in trades, passes or games for an agreed upon time. ( 1 month, more ?) This would allow the BOTL at the forums to get to know the person a little better through reading posts and seeing a persons opinion on various topics of discussion. Then after the period of time was over the newer BOTL could get involved with everything offered here. All this does is to slow things down a bit and allow people to get to know who you are before getting into a trade situation. I honestly feel that the rate of new members and the rush of bombs and such by people trying to get forum cred. is at the root of all of this. New members used to accept the minimum 25 post count and sending out their end of trades for the first one at least as a way of getting onto the good traders list. Now many are trying to run an end play around the established method, and short cuts a are leading to problems.
I know someone will point out that in this case the person we are talking about is NOT a new member. But I would point out that with the number of reported problems since the first issue came to light, that these problems have gone on for some time.
I don't think we have a broken system, I think we just have some over eager BOTL who want to get in on the fun. It would be a shame if through trying to fix it, we screwed up a whole system only to find it wasn't the system that was broke. Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
I agree with everything said here.. The thing that I loved most about this forum was how relatively few members there were. I knew just about everyone and even those older members who were not active I had a silent respect and reverence for. They were legends. Now, it seems like everyone is making trades very early which is not necessarily bad thing just not what i would prefer.
Bottom line, there are a sh*t ton of new members on here.
Well, I'll put my experiences with Joeyjoe in, and you can make of it what you want.
I had a deal with him to trade some sticks of mine (forget what they were) for 6 Nica Libre's - I sent my end out, and waited, and got nothing in return. Weeks went by, I heard nothing and got nothing, and I just wrote it off as a loss - I never even told him about it, never PM'd him, nothing - the last PM I sent to him was my addy at the beginning of the trade, so he never heard from me whether I got them or not.
About a month or so later, he PM's me out of nowhere asking if I ever got the sticks since I never sent him a PM about it; I said no, I never got them - so he says he's been having problems with his post office, and sends out 6 Nica's with over a year on them, plus a Paradigm (mind you this was after jsnake and I got into it over 262's marketing strategies, if you'll recall the drama a few months back) and a few other goodies that weren't in the trade to make it right.
It annoyed me that I got the trade so late and that a tracking number was never provided, but he contacted me to ask if I got my end, and then sent more than he needed to. Anyway, that's my only experience with him, so whether for good or ill, make of it what you will.
I am going to chime in here and as usual I will likely piss off some people, but that's never stopped me before
There is NOT a problem here with trades, the traders list, or in the particular situation which brought this whole thing to light.
Think about it, we have a loose system of rating trades and traders and because of it working the way it was intended we are having this discussion. Nobody skated over this, nobody got away with something they shouldn't have. The system worked just fine.
The problem was and is (as I see it, of course) the way the discussion turned into a pile on session and then that distracted the conversation away from the incident to what we can do about it.
I am going to state here right now that I believe the biggest problem we are having at the forums are that there are so many newer members who want to jump right into the mix and start enjoying the priviledges of membership to put it another way.
When we were not such a large group, new people would drop by introduce themselves (sometimes) and get involved into discussions for a while until they learned who was who and how things worked and things ran smoothly.
We have had such a huge influx of new members that in many cases I have read about trades between peeps I haven't even heard of. When there are such a large number of trades going on at the same time it becomes mayhem. I can see where people who get tied up in the trades and passes could easily get carried away and before they know it they are promising sticks to so many BOTL that they can't even keep their own deals straight.
The perception that there are a group of people who want to hide behind bad trades or whatever by NOT calling someone out is incorrect. The reason that many BOTL here don't want to call someone out is that at one time we were a VERY patient group of BOTL who realized that life does get in the way sometimes and that given time or maybe a PM reminder that transactions always seemed to work themselves out. The peer pressure, vouch safe method of recommending a person for a trade worked flawlessly. Comments posted after the deal were to serve for others to see how the trade went, to learn what others out there were smoking and to give an opportunity for BOTL to share in some sticks that were not available to all, this too worked great... and then
I don't want to sound like I am dumping on new BOTL here, that is NOT it. I am just saying that in the rush to become a "member in good standing" we had new peeps trying all sorts of things from asking to do early trades (before 25 posts) running contests as a way to get known (great idea), bombing members to get mentioned on the good traders list etc. In other words we were doing what humans always do, look at a system and then try to figure out a way to make the system work advantageously for us as individuals.
It is this rush to become one of the recognized BOTL here at the forums (I believe) that has caused much of the turmoil around here the last year or so. I know this may sound extreme and I don't even know if I believe it is the best solution, but I think it would be something to consider to have new members NOT take part in trades, passes or games for an agreed upon time. ( 1 month, more ?) This would allow the BOTL at the forums to get to know the person a little better through reading posts and seeing a persons opinion on various topics of discussion. Then after the period of time was over the newer BOTL could get involved with everything offered here. All this does is to slow things down a bit and allow people to get to know who you are before getting into a trade situation. I honestly feel that the rate of new members and the rush of bombs and such by people trying to get forum cred. is at the root of all of this. New members used to accept the minimum 25 post count and sending out their end of trades for the first one at least as a way of getting onto the good traders list. Now many are trying to run an end play around the established method, and short cuts a are leading to problems.
I know someone will point out that in this case the person we are talking about is NOT a new member. But I would point out that with the number of reported problems since the first issue came to light, that these problems have gone on for some time.
I don't think we have a broken system, I think we just have some over eager BOTL who want to get in on the fun. It would be a shame if through trying to fix it, we screwed up a whole system only to find it wasn't the system that was broke. Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
I agree with everything said here.. The thing that I loved most about this forum was how relatively few members there were. I knew just about everyone and even those older members who were not active I had a silent respect and reverence for. They were legends. Now, it seems like everyone is making trades very early which is not necessarily bad thing just not what i would prefer.
Bottom line, there are a sh*t ton of new members on here.
Also, I'm not sure I like the idea of multiple copies of an address book circulating around. It just seems too easy haha. I think to bomb someone, you should have to put your time in. To me, bombing is a way to show respect and gratitude. Not a way to earn street rep..
Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
The full letter of the law is the rankest injustice.
While I don't disagree with you wholly, I don't agree wholly either. In ANY system, there are going to be people who try to take advantage and screw others - you simply CAN'T get around it or put enough rules in place to prevent it. Trying to put enough rules in place so it never happens just leads to tyranny
I know you're not saying "we need more rules", you're saying that we just need common sense" - my point is that in addition, we also need judgment. Just because someone bombs you doesn't mean they should get immediate street cred (which has been happening a lot lately) - I'm saying that we just need to exercise better judgment.
When someone bombs you, take it as a positive mark on their record, but don't turn over the keys to the store. We don't need a no-exceptions policy, just better judgment and stop jumping the gun by showering accolades on someone who sends a random bomb. Jsut take it for what it is - a good mark on their record, and stay skeptical until you get to know them better
Common sense is a good rule to follow. Many well established cigar forums have a probationary period, a time of 3-4 months where new members are welcomed but also expected to learn the ropes and get to know the other members. In said period, it's frowned upon to ask for a trade, get in on games or try to sell anything. I think we had a good thing going not being like other forums, but it has become obvious that they have these "rules" in place for a good reason and we'd be wise to adopt that system.
As has been mentioned, we, as a community, need to do a better job of keeping on top of deadbeats and not allow them to continue taking advantage of the generosity of the brothers. I don't think sweeping reforms are the answer, but we all share a role in looking out for the community.
Comments
There is NOT a problem here with trades, the traders list, or in the particular situation which brought this whole thing to light.
Think about it, we have a loose system of rating trades and traders and because of it working the way it was intended we are having this discussion. Nobody skated over this, nobody got away with something they shouldn't have. The system worked just fine.
The problem was and is (as I see it, of course) the way the discussion turned into a pile on session and then that distracted the conversation away from the incident to what we can do about it.
I am going to state here right now that I believe the biggest problem we are having at the forums are that there are so many newer members who want to jump right into the mix and start enjoying the priviledges of membership to put it another way.
When we were not such a large group, new people would drop by introduce themselves (sometimes) and get involved into discussions for a while until they learned who was who and how things worked and things ran smoothly.
We have had such a huge influx of new members that in many cases I have read about trades between peeps I haven't even heard of. When there are such a large number of trades going on at the same time it becomes mayhem. I can see where people who get tied up in the trades and passes could easily get carried away and before they know it they are promising sticks to so many BOTL that they can't even keep their own deals straight.
The perception that there are a group of people who want to hide behind bad trades or whatever by NOT calling someone out is incorrect. The reason that many BOTL here don't want to call someone out is that at one time we were a VERY patient group of BOTL who realized that life does get in the way sometimes and that given time or maybe a PM reminder that transactions always seemed to work themselves out. The peer pressure, vouch safe method of recommending a person for a trade worked flawlessly. Comments posted after the deal were to serve for others to see how the trade went, to learn what others out there were smoking and to give an opportunity for BOTL to share in some sticks that were not available to all, this too worked great... and then
I don't want to sound like I am dumping on new BOTL here, that is NOT it. I am just saying that in the rush to become a "member in good standing" we had new peeps trying all sorts of things from asking to do early trades (before 25 posts) running contests as a way to get known (great idea), bombing members to get mentioned on the good traders list etc. In other words we were doing what humans always do, look at a system and then try to figure out a way to make the system work advantageously for us as individuals.
It is this rush to become one of the recognized BOTL here at the forums (I believe) that has caused much of the turmoil around here the last year or so. I know this may sound extreme and I don't even know if I believe it is the best solution, but I think it would be something to consider to have new members NOT take part in trades, passes or games for an agreed upon time. ( 1 month, more ?) This would allow the BOTL at the forums to get to know the person a little better through reading posts and seeing a persons opinion on various topics of discussion. Then after the period of time was over the newer BOTL could get involved with everything offered here. All this does is to slow things down a bit and allow people to get to know who you are before getting into a trade situation. I honestly feel that the rate of new members and the rush of bombs and such by people trying to get forum cred. is at the root of all of this. New members used to accept the minimum 25 post count and sending out their end of trades for the first one at least as a way of getting onto the good traders list. Now many are trying to run an end play around the established method, and short cuts a are leading to problems.
I know someone will point out that in this case the person we are talking about is NOT a new member. But I would point out that with the number of reported problems since the first issue came to light, that these problems have gone on for some time.
I don't think we have a broken system, I think we just have some over eager BOTL who want to get in on the fun. It would be a shame if through trying to fix it, we screwed up a whole system only to find it wasn't the system that was broke. Common sense and getting back to the way we used to do it with NO exceptions in my opinion is all that is needed to fix this.
Some I agree with some I do not! I still have no clue what Happened but it seems like whats happened with many people before and not called out.
When I was first posting here a trade with 2 members unknown to me went bad, & after pm'ing for months & getting no response the guy posted on here how he got ripped off. He explained thoroughly how he waited patiently & he even posted pictures of the destroyed product he received.
Basically this guy got thoroughly REAMED by all the forum regulars, and I stated I would never trade because this was obviously a "good ol boys" club. I pissed a lot of poeple off but its the truth that I didn't trade for another 3 months because of what I saw.
People get along well here, & if there is an incident we should be allowed to post it without everyone attacking the reporter. Fact always come to light in the end & the people usually resolve the issue.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents about how a forum attitude of "don't be a rat/crybaby just suck it up" made me not get involved for a few months. The system isn't broke, so lets not mess with it. Unless of course CCOM can get a trade reporting system that links to your forum username, which keeps track of all the responses others leave about trades with you. Otherwise I say its working fine for me now.
I was just going to let this die without chiming in, but since I've been involved with several trades/passes/contests, I'll go ahead and add my $.02 too.
First, I think it is AMAZING that so many trades go over so well amongst a bunch of people scattered all over the world who have never met face to face (in most instances anyway). In situations where a trade doesn't work out, the BOTL on the short end of the stick can try to resolve it privately but may end up just eating it and learn his lesson about the offender, but if that offender continues to screw up there will inevitably be grumbling on the board and it will eventually come to light. This seems to be how things work and I thnk that works just fine. If we can just avoid the piling on and the pissing contests, then I agree that both the positive AND the negative regarding BOTLs needs to be put out there for everyone's benefit. Like Ken said, if it is unnecessary the thread will just drop off. But if the thread gains legs, it's probably proof that it was necessary.
We're all adults here (well, most of us anyway...Lassie?? ;-) just kidding bro), and we can make our own decisions about trades etc.
And I've never had a trade go bad, so maybe I'm talking out of my a$$ because I'm not sure how I would react until I was put in that situation.
As you can tell I didnt Jump in on anything... YOU JUST DID ON ME ! I dont see any m,ention of you .. as amatter of fact I had no clue what it was about... Do u see any reference to you? LOL
Continue on...
Hi Oz, been a while since we've seen you. Sorry we didn't listen to you and half of us completely flamed you for trying to warn us about something like this, looks like you might have been on to something. You've always been a solid BOTL and I guess maybe we should have paid a little MORE attention to the message you were sending and a little LESS the tone you sent it in - perhaps a few less BOTL would have had to deal with this if we had.
Appreciate you brother, welcome back.
"Long ashes my friends."
To rub salt in the wound, a bunch of us (five at the time including myself, and that list has since grown to nine if anyone's curious) who had firsthand problems of our own regarding trades, etc with the individual in question sat back on our keesters and said NOTHING while Oz was getting flamed because we didnt want to "rock the boat" or have "forum drama" attached to our names - when all it would have taken to bring this issue to full light was for enough of us to do the right thing by standing up and backing Oz when he spoke the truth.
I, for one, AM NOT going to let that happen again. If there was anyone who has tried to do the right thing by people we all call brothers from jump, its been Ozzie and bip. I think if you asked Oz, even he would admit he didnt do it in the most politically correct manner... and lets face it, thats Oz being Oz. LOL If you want political correctness, best look somewhere else.
I will go on record with two apologies right now - first to Oz for not standing up with you the first go round. Despite that, you stuck with me and remained a friend. Much respect brother, you continue to set an example.
Secondly, to the BOTL who have had difficulties with the individual in question SINCE Oz called BS last time - part of what you dealt with is my fault because I was a coward who didnt want to get involved. I own it and Im truly sorry.
Somewhere on the order of a YEAR ago.
No DC numbers to be found. Not one.
Not a single picture from a single grateful troop.
Not a single post or letter from a single grateful troop.
And a YEAR LATER, there is still half a bag of cigars laying around? When there are THREE USO locations an hour and a half drive away? That's disturbing enough.
More disturbing is the fact that the whereabouts of the half a bag not sitting around cant be verified. ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL. Had a bunch of people who donated cigars wondering though....
Bottom line, there are a sh*t ton of new members on here.
I had a deal with him to trade some sticks of mine (forget what they were) for 6 Nica Libre's - I sent my end out, and waited, and got nothing in return. Weeks went by, I heard nothing and got nothing, and I just wrote it off as a loss - I never even told him about it, never PM'd him, nothing - the last PM I sent to him was my addy at the beginning of the trade, so he never heard from me whether I got them or not.
About a month or so later, he PM's me out of nowhere asking if I ever got the sticks since I never sent him a PM about it; I said no, I never got them - so he says he's been having problems with his post office, and sends out 6 Nica's with over a year on them, plus a Paradigm (mind you this was after jsnake and I got into it over 262's marketing strategies, if you'll recall the drama a few months back) and a few other goodies that weren't in the trade to make it right.
It annoyed me that I got the trade so late and that a tracking number was never provided, but he contacted me to ask if I got my end, and then sent more than he needed to. Anyway, that's my only experience with him, so whether for good or ill, make of it what you will.
While I don't disagree with you wholly, I don't agree wholly either. In ANY system, there are going to be people who try to take advantage and screw others - you simply CAN'T get around it or put enough rules in place to prevent it. Trying to put enough rules in place so it never happens just leads to tyranny
I know you're not saying "we need more rules", you're saying that we just need common sense" - my point is that in addition, we also need judgment. Just because someone bombs you doesn't mean they should get immediate street cred (which has been happening a lot lately) - I'm saying that we just need to exercise better judgment.
When someone bombs you, take it as a positive mark on their record, but don't turn over the keys to the store. We don't need a no-exceptions policy, just better judgment and stop jumping the gun by showering accolades on someone who sends a random bomb. Jsut take it for what it is - a good mark on their record, and stay skeptical until you get to know them better
As has been mentioned, we, as a community, need to do a better job of keeping on top of deadbeats and not allow them to continue taking advantage of the generosity of the brothers. I don't think sweeping reforms are the answer, but we all share a role in looking out for the community.