Legality, is it really the line..

phobicsquirrel

Anyone notice that over the last 2 or so decades that things have gotten more and more out of hand? Is it the money? People with money are above the law? Is it that we "the people" have not done our jobs? Have we allowed this by being so divided? I guess I have more questions than anything. The recent issues these last few months have really been making me think. I could mention many things, one would be the torture of inmates in Quantomeno Bay, prosecute the soldiers but the men who ordered it and allowed it go free? Hmmm. Blackwater and how they can do anything they want, but US soldiers get prosecuted? A president and his administration breaks man laws, constitutional laws, and violates his oath of office, and nothing is done. Large companies get trillions of dollars but America continues to become more in debt and the people more and more divided and still not challenging the Govt. I don't know there are so many things I could mention. I'm a democrate but I sit on both sides of the fence. I think that there needs to be less divide between us and more unity. This far left, far right thing has been tearing this country apart for some time. People still want to ignore the fact that our usage of fossil fuels and emissions have put us in the global warming enigma, not to mention the state of the economy since we lost our exports and manufacturing. I won't even bring up the drug issues. We all know about the cigar laws trying or have went through. I don't feel that that should be legal, nor any other large taxes put on products.

j0z3r

Well this is certainly a proverbial shitstorm you've brought up phobic, I can see this escalating to a several page, rant filled thread in no time.

To a large extent I agree with your frustration with the enforcement of laws and of the seemingly untouchable nature of certain "servants of the people". I suppose the main problem I see is change....how do we enact change in such a quagmire of corruption, greed and blatant self-interest and self serving policy? Well, I sure as hell don't know the answer to that one, so I'm with you in having questions but no suitable answers.

laker1963

j0z3r:

Well this is certainly a proverbial shitstorm you've brought up phobic, I can see this escalating to a several page, rant filled thread in no time.

To a large extent I agree with your frustration with the enforcement of laws and of the seemingly untouchable nature of certain "servants of the people". I suppose the main problem I see is change....how do we enact change in such a quagmire of corruption, greed and blatant self-interest and self serving policy? Well, I sure as hell don't know the answer to that one, so I'm with you in having questions but no suitable answers.

Dialog is a great place to start, and forums like these serve as a great medium for such discussion.

Luko

Dontcha think that two decades ago, old timers like us where wondering what the hell happened to the peace and bliss of the 60s and 70s?

phobicsquirrel

lol, yeah that's when it sort of started. Though corruption is and has been there. Though I think our current problems started when the credit got off the hook and the living wage started to dwindle. which was right around the end of the 70's. Seems as though people can really make a stance and pull together, so the govt had to make things tough so we wouldn't organize as much. which is what we are seeing now. Not to mention our jobs leaving the country and large corporations gave the US the finger.

bangalohr

Many people who live below the poverty line have cable tv. War hasn't even grazed the people of the US. We're all fat, happy, and dumb. More people care about the cost of gasoline than they do about their civil liberties. The rest of the world isn't wrong to hate America. I'm not a huge fan myself. It's easy to argue that what people around the world hate about us is our government, but even then, isn't our government by, for, and of the people? When Americans wake up to the reality that the power elite are in charge and are using the resources of a nation to profit themselves things might start to change. Sure as ***, though, it won't be long until we pull the wool back over our eyes and believe that a politician is on our side and is going to change things for the better. On the day that normal, honest, middle class, public school educated people run the government we will see some real change. Until then, light up end enjoy the things that you can do something about.

phobicsquirrel

very true but lighting up might be a problem and sooner than one thinks.. =(

gmill880

I'll decide what is good for myself and if it leads to my demise I will consider that GODS plan to keep the earth spinnin and the dumb from winnin'. What the h-ll did I just say? Way too much Makers Mark tonight .....

Tumbler

I do think were in a world of hurt. I see where the average credit card debt per family is 8K. The average 401K was approx 25k for those in their mid fifties. The bond interest on our National Debt is greater than our National Security, Medicare, and something else combined. The government encouraged banks to loan - to improve the economy. Banks were doing interest free loans and people were getting ARMS - that when increased couldn't afford their payments. We bail out the banks. We bail out the big three, and we feel the way to get things moving is increase gov't spending. This seems to be the age of no accountability. Being a simple guy, it just seems like we push so hard to keep the stock market rising at any cost. It seems we really need to let nature takes it's course and those who can't manage become managed by someone who can. I just don't see this ship sailing.

I know this started with corruption and we are losing our civil liberties - but I can see an economic implosion.

j0z3r

Tumbler:

I know this started with corruption and we are losing our civil liberties - but I can see an economic implosion.

Unfortunately, I tend to have that same grim vision.

The thing I find most amazing is that even though I am responsible with my credit, do not buy more than I can afford and make an earnest attempt to secure my future, it seems as though I have to pay the piper right alongside the mortgage defaulters and $20,000 credit line floaters. What a world indeed. As they say, que sera sera.

Tumbler

Poor decisions have become the responsibility of all. The Gov't being the biggest perpetrator...

Luko

Agreed...A while ago on this board, I was arguing in favor of the bailout(s) because I really don't know much about economics, the workings of the federal government or Wall Street and so on and so forth. What the hell was I thinking. Paulson fleeced us and those jackaninnies in congress let him. I knew better, I just thought the alternative was suicide for us. I agree with - I believe it was Kuzi. Should have swallowed the bitter pill and let everybody default. A hard lesson to learn, but maybe it would have been better in the long run.

Ironically, my wife and I just finished paying down the last of some major credit last month. Yeah us.

Stoogee

phobicsquirrel:

People still want to ignore the fact that our usage of fossil fuels and emissions have put us in the global warming enigma, .

This is a debatable topic. There is just as much information out there that can show "global warming" is not even happening and/or not due to anything man is doing.

gmill880

Problem with letting everyone default is the domino effect...take the auto industry for example , the domestics, the "big three" fail and then the vendors and suppliers are crushed and then the imports,even Toyota suffer the effects and so on, I don't think if we want the economy to rebound anytime soon we can let that happen. I would be all for it if only the guilty were punished or put out of business. Unfortunatly it's like trying to seperate siamese twins who share one heart, some serious chit is going to happen if you try that.

Stoogee

Letting the big 3 fail would actually result in a buyout and a restructuring of there buisness and while it would be a major hit to unemployment and will cause even more of a drag on the economy it also goes against what I believe in and gives an unfair advantage to 3 companies in the auto industry in a capatalistic economy and will not solve the problem only delay it.

gmill880

I agree it leaves a sour taste however I don't think most people understand how far reaching the consequences are. Another thing I find interesting (and it may be because its the first time our generation has faced it first hand) is that these kind of bailouts have been going on for decades...example: 1907 financial crisis /meltdown when JP Morgan and a hand full of financiers helped prop up the good 'ol USA banking system which was about to fail coincidentally led to the forming of the federal reserve but a lot of people view this as something new...its not. Stoogee I agree it goes against what I believe as well and it is a shame that some people who have failed at their jobs and responsibilities will be rewarded for being incompotent. I'm sure we would all like to know if we went to work tommorrow and made a cluster-fawk outta what we each do that the government would send us a nice big check and tell us do better next time. I also agree with you that throwing money at it will not fix it, it won't be fixed untill someone is held accountable just like you and I are held accountable for our debts and anything we do in our daily life. It ain't fair buddy.....

bangalohr

A good economy is based on consumer confidence. If you believe that you'll have a job in a week, you're more willing to spend your money insted of save it. spending that money keeps the other guy in a job, which means he spends his money, which means you keep yours, which means you spend more... It's not all in our heads, but a good bit of it is.

bbc020

bangalohr:

It's not all in our heads, but a good bit of it is.

A lot of it starts up there and ends up with us running around screaming about how we're all screwed.

This has a lot to do with consumer confidence, but has more to do about waking up to reality. If I remember anything about economics class in high school, the first thing we learned about is scarcity. It's hard to be confident with such a daunting realization. So, we live in fantasy land for a while and act like what we have is going to last and grow. Not only that, we convince others of that too! We build this way of living into markets and such, where we pay people to allocate resources so that they can grow. And then, when we find out that our schemes didn't work, that our schemes had less of an ability to work because of corruption and greed, we act like any scared little human does...we either point fingers or run-around proclaiming the sky is falling.

I honestly can't tell you if (1) we have enough resources in our country, world, universe to sustain the life that is created and being created or (2) that if our race (the human one) could pull off such a scheme as capitalism without corruption and greed, we would still be able to use those resources responsibly, but I have awaken to that fact that it isn't going to be any economic package, bailout, president, or what have you that brings a big enough change that would have an effect.

We can't see the rest of this iceberg and our limited perspective puts us in a place where either we think we save the ship, or we surrender to the fact that we're going to hit it and suffer the consequences.

I don't want to sound like I'm not a participant in this, I obviously have a job, spend money, and have some great amounts of debt in college loans and CCs and all that. I believe this is more about a major collective thing that has been around for years and will continue, regardless of my rant or anyone else's. I think we all want to find hope, but I think I need solace and serenity more than hope. I need to learn more about living a life where I don't use up everything around me, where I don't take the moment, and everything that goes along with it, for granted.

I hope you all don't think I'm nuts, but I know my life will change due to the economy, maybe for the worse, maybe for the better. I have a feeling it will change again later, but as long as I'm living it, there is something greater than the circumstances that I find myself in. Something more important.

Tumbler

BBC - I think you are on a philosophical bent and I agree - if I understand correctly. We can go through whatever - kicking and screamin' or find a way to get something out of it. It doesn't make any difference - we are still going through this thng. I would think the wiser individual will find a way to look at his circumstances in a positive light. Gov't however I see in a different light.

I also agree with stooges that we are just delaying the inevitable. I think the economy has grown at too quick a rate - due to spending that wasn't realistic. Debt that couldn't be managed. The Gov't does this, as well as the people. At some point we have to reduce the deficit, reduce spending, and get back on stable ground. I think we have to pay the piper.