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Capitalism

July 4, 1776
to
January 20, 2009

It wa sgood while it lasted.

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  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Bad Andy:
    Capitalism

    July 4, 1776
    to
    January 20, 2009

    It wa sgood while it lasted.
    why? cause of the sh*tty taxes?
  • image

    Seems Fazoli's is the first to fall.
  • Bad AndyBad Andy Posts: 848
    phobicsquirrel:
    Bad Andy:
    Capitalism

    July 4, 1776
    to
    January 20, 2009

    It wa sgood while it lasted.
    why? cause of the sh*tty taxes?
    Capitalism is not about taxes so much as it is about business. But if you are taxed so much that you can't spend as much then thn yeah it is about taxes. It's more about the government taking over different businesses under the guise of 'saving' them and the economy. Lots of other businesses fail everyday and so many have failed in the past. Let them fail. Where one fails more pop up and others grow.
  • jihiggsjihiggs Posts: 468
    what blows me away is obama says he is going to cut the defficit by 2/3 by taxing the rich. what do you classify the rich? another source I saw said that 96% of americans would qualify for a tax break. so hes going to collect countless trillions from 4% of the american population????????? those people are going to go live in canadia for sure.
  • Bad AndyBad Andy Posts: 848
    250k is their idea of rich
  • That's what he said in the begining before he was elected but as time went on he brought that figure down to 120k.
  • kaspera79kaspera79 Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, last night he said " any one who makes less than 250 K, their taxes will not go up one dime.. And in fact 95% of those people will see a tax reduction. " Does anyone here fit in that tax bracket ? It all sounds good, lets see how it all works out.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    the problem with socialism is that eventually the government runs out of other peoples money.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    kaspera79:
    Yeah, last night he said " any one who makes less than 250 K, their taxes will not go up one dime.. And in fact 95% of those people will see a tax reduction. " Does anyone here fit in that tax bracket ? It all sounds good, lets see how it all works out.
    the problem is that the top 5% of the population pay over 50% of the taxes.... and if the taxes get high enough (and they have before so i dont doubt that they would again) you will make more money but only earn the same after taxes. at that point what is you incentive to work harder and be productive.

    my father was telling me of a time when carter was in office. My father just got a promotion and a good sized raise. he was excited about his first check at the new pay rate. the raise bumped him into the next tax bracket. his take home went DOWN. once productivity is killed like that the nation will suffer.


    over 250K a year? i dont fit in that tax bracket. ...but at the rate that my wife and myself are moving up, we will be soon.

    oh and taxes WILL go up for EVERYONE in a year and a half or so... the bush tax cuts will not be renewed because we "have to pay off this budget deficit from the bailouts" BTW, the bush tax cuts saved a family of 4 making a total of 45K a year a bit over 2400 a year. that could translate to $200 a month, a car payment.

    but who am i to let logic and reason get in the way of what makes people feel good by taxing the rich. I mean, that doenst help the poor at all. it just hurts the rich a bit. typical class envy.

    Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth.
    Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    I don't see why I hear socialism so much on here? there is no socialism going on. When healthcare is brought up in the sense of a national healthcare system, SOCIALISM! I mean it works very well in other civialized countries. Our healthcare currently sucks and wastes a lot of money. Obama has other ideas on getting money than just taxing the super rich. I doubt that the top 10percent really pay 50% of taxes. I've said it before, taxing will only get you so far, it's in manufacturing and exporting that brings in the money. As well as being smart on spending. Obama gets it, that's what he's doing. I think a lot of you will be surprised on how things will be in the next few years. Give it a chance. I'm about to quite my job and do my business full time and right now it scares me because I can't afford my own healthcare, it's really a crappy situation. I have the VA I can go too but if you've ever been to a VA you know what I mean. We all know that the policies of the last admin don't work and have done major damage but it goes further than that, Regan really pushed for the policys that got us this far. It doesn't work, and besides whats wrong with something a bit different. Yes I'm a democrat and yes I consider myself a liberal and a progressive but at the same time I also don't agree with everything in my party or their agenda. I like some republican ideas but right now the party is really screwed up. Too much "me" syndrome. Basically most of my friends are Rep. and most of them do not like what has happened over the last several years with their party. The party has changed, mostly due to the far right ideas and "neo" cons. No stint against the Rep party, just the extreamists. I can say the same thing with the far left, they piss me off.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    ..and about giving corporations money, yes that is something I do not agree with, I feel that they should fail, but that would mean massive more job losses. I do feel that is not an option but I do feel that maybe "socialistic" things should be done to those companies to fix the problem. Mainly fire the damn ceo's and get people in there that will do the job. It makes me sick that we helped out the auto industry and they are still firing people, that should not stand.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    I don't see why I hear socialism so much on here? there is no socialism going on. When healthcare is brought up in the sense of a national healthcare system, SOCIALISM!
    it is a step in the direction of socialism. Once people find out that they can vote themselves "free" services and money, it is the beginning of the end. thats why i am against it. thats the first step to socialism.
    phobicsquirrel:
    I mean it works very well in other civialized countries. Our healthcare currently sucks and wastes a lot of money.
    oh, like in britian and canada where old people, people who smoke or drink have a hard time getting health care even if they can afford it just because they are a "drain on the system"? yeah , that works for me too.
    phobicsquirrel:
    Obama has other ideas on getting money than just taxing the super rich.
    like taxing everyone that drives by the mile? by taxing cigars? by taxing big and small business? by taxing everything that moves? CLICK
    phobicsquirrel:
    I doubt that the top 10percent really pay 50% of taxes.
    doubt all you want but this chart shows otherwise.
    2005
    top 10%
    68.7%
    phobicsquirrel:
    I've said it before, taxing will only get you so far, it's in manufacturing and exporting that brings in the money.
    i agree here. this is why we need to attract business to the US. the best way we can do that is to lower the corporate tax rate so that it isnt the second highest in world, thus making it cheaper to do business here. But Obama wont do that because all corporations are evil, rich guys who want nothing but more money all the time.
    phobicsquirrel:
    ... As well as being smart on spending. Obama gets it, that's what he's doing.
    oh yeah, real smart on spending.... did you even look at this thread? Click
    phobicsquirrel:
    I think a lot of you will be surprised on how things will be in the next few years. Give it a chance.
    i have no choice but to give it a chance. and yes a few of us will be surprised. but i wont be.
    phobicsquirrel:
    We all know that the policies of the last admin don't work and have done major damage but it goes further than that, Regan really pushed for the policys that got us this far. It doesn't work, and besides whats wrong with something a bit different.
    we could argue all day on if it was bush that caused this but it goes back farther than that.... back to carter. my problem with bush in this situation is that he didnt try hard enough to stop it. ... he could have stopped it but he didnt.... but he didnt start it by any means.

    as far as regan goes, yes, his spending was out of control but the fact remains, when he took office, unemployment was double digits , intrest rates were double digits, inflation was double digits. by the time he left office the economy was significantly better than when he started. doesnt work? i think it did.
    phobicsquirrel:
    Yes I'm a democrat and yes I consider myself a liberal and a progressive but at the same time I also don't agree with everything in my party or their agenda. I like some republican ideas but right now the party is really screwed up.
    name one republican idea you like?
    phobicsquirrel:
    Too much "me" syndrome. Basically most of my friends are Rep. and most of them do not like what has happened over the last several years with their party.
    thats because the republicans are not what they used to be.
    phobicsquirrel:
    The party has changed, mostly due to the far right ideas and "neo" cons. No stint against the Rep party, just the extreamists. I can say the same thing with the far left, they piss me off.
    i disagree here as well. the republican party has gone soft. they try to appease everyone and the conservative base is getting pissed because they are not conservative anymore. Almost all the republicans that i know (and i know a LOT of republicans) are mad that the republican party is not conservative and they do not represent them anymore.

    as far as disagreeing with the republican party.... i do. alot. also with conservatives. I just agree with a conservative POV on the economy.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    ..and about giving corporations money, yes that is something I do not agree with, I feel that they should fail, but that would mean massive more job losses. I do feel that is not an option but I do feel that maybe "socialistic" things should be done to those companies to fix the problem. Mainly fire the damn ceo's and get people in there that will do the job. It makes me sick that we helped out the auto industry and they are still firing people, that should not stand.
    a failing company will not get better if you throw money at it. the government took over the auto industry. Once the government gives them money the auto industy is in the governments pocket. they are forcing them to make cars the way the government wants not the way that people buying cars want. if the government ensures jobs they would have to use tax money to ensure them. this IS socialism. and its crap.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    a bit more i found:

    in 2006 the wealthiest 2% paid 62% of the tax revenue collected. the richest 1% paid 40%. the richest 1% only brought in 22% of all income of individuals in the US. all according to the IRS

    If the government were to take 100% of income from those making $500k+/year you would end up with 1.3 trillion. this is less than half of the projected Obama Deficit of 3.55 TRILLION. what does that mean?
    taxes will go up for everyone if he has any hope of creating a balanced budget.

  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    ..and about giving corporations money, yes that is something I do not agree with, I feel that they should fail, but that would mean massive more job losses. I do feel that is not an option but I do feel that maybe "socialistic" things should be done to those companies to fix the problem. Mainly fire the damn ceo's and get people in there that will do the job. It makes me sick that we helped out the auto industry and they are still firing people, that should not stand.
    a failing company will not get better if you throw money at it. the government took over the auto industry. Once the government gives them money the auto industy is in the governments pocket. they are forcing them to make cars the way the government wants not the way that people buying cars want. if the government ensures jobs they would have to use tax money to ensure them. this IS socialism. and its crap.
    The govt wants cars to be less dependent on gas and oil. the auto industry has had the means to do this for the last decade, but they wanted money. people will buy anything really, and if the auto industry had pushed away from oil and the consumption of gasoline than there would be no need for govt intervention. Back in the 90's there were prototypes being made to run on water and batteries but that was either smashed by big oil, or other business's (what ever which it was). If that wouldn't have happened than it would be a different story right now for "our" industry. I remember reading in popular mechanics in 99 about a hydrogen car prototype that would be out for the public by 2004 or something, well that was killed due to the corruption and money hat oil brings. if that had worked we would have been on the for-front of world with the technology but no, we still have the same old sh*t. Govt has a responsibility to intervene if companies are not doing their job, that means banks, or any other organization.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    kuzi16:
    a bit more i found:

    in 2006 the wealthiest 2% paid 62% of the tax revenue collected. the richest 1% paid 40%. the richest 1% only brought in 22% of all income of individuals in the US. all according to the IRS

    If the government were to take 100% of income from those making $500k+/year you would end up with 1.3 trillion. this is less than half of the projected Obama Deficit of 3.55 TRILLION. what does that mean?
    taxes will go up for everyone if he has any hope of creating a balanced budget.

    maybe so, but if bill gates gets half of is income that's still billions. so what does that mean? well that means he is still rich. most experts don't disagree kuzi, taxes need to go up, lowering taxes doesn't work, but if the exports of this country go up and our products are once again the best then the deficit will dwindle and we will have a surplus.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    if microsoft loses half of its money then itll have to fire half of its employees. so what does that mean? bill is still rich, but all of those people are now suddenly poor. most experts DO disagree. why do you think that every time that the Government opens their mouths about nationalizing anything the stocks for those companies PLUMET and the rest of the market follows. nobody will make a profit if the government owns everything. socialism, social systems, communism, Marxism, nationalized systems, always have faild, been inefficiant, wasted more money, and have never made anyone rich. But they HAVE made the government more powerful, oppressive, demanding, costly, etc...
    every tax is money taken out of the hands of people.
    every tax is a limit on freedom
    every tax is a potential job lost because the company can no longer afford to pay them

    if a company has $1milliion to pay 50 employees every year (20K a year) and then the government ups taxes and the company now only has $800K, guess what happens to that guy? thats right, laid off. the company is now less productive than before because they have less workers. then they lose money.

    if you want to pay more taxes go ahead and do it but dont make me do it as well. when the bush tax cuts expire my wife and I personally will be paying almost $2000 more a year. thats $166 a month. I could use that money every month to buy a car if i had it. but i wont have it. the government will have it. the Bush tax cuts gave a family of 4 with an income of 42K a year 2300 a year. thats almost 200 a month. and they need it too.

    im not rich either. i could use that money. i want it. I earned it.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    but if the exports of this country go up and our products are once again the best then the deficit will dwindle and we will have a surplus.
    again, attracting business to the US would help, and raising taxes on corporations will not make corporations want to come here when they can get a lower tax rate overseas. they will go where it is cheap to do business. With tax rates the way they are here its no wonder that they go elsewhere.
    I would

  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Just look at the proposed tax increases in NYC. Mayor Bloomberg was doing some research and found that the people who make up the top 1 or 2% of income in the city is 40,000 people. Those 40,000 people pay over 50% of the taxes for NYC. Now if you raise taxes on them many will move and take their operations elsewhere. If just half of those people left NY that would eliminate a full 25% of their taxes they collect and it would cripple the city and put it in worse condition that the state of California, who IS for the record, the MOST liberl and socialist state in our nation.

    Lowering taxes DOES work and Obama's policies are Socialist in nature.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Also, how is putting our nation farther into debt going to help our economy? The GPD for 2008 was approx $14.22 Trillion. Of that $5.8 Trillion was debt to countries like China. Now take a second to think about that. That is 40.8% of our GDP that is debt our government owes to other nations.

    According to Obama's economic budget numbers our GDP will grow to $14.7 Trillion by 2010, but our publicly held debt to other nations will increase to $9.5 Trillion! That may not sound like much, but really think about that for a minute. Our GDP will only go up approx $500 Billion but our Debt will increase by $3.7 TRILLION! That is an enormous jump. From 40.8% of our GDP in 2008 to 64.6% in just his first 2 years in office... Things aren't looking good!

    If you take 100% of the income from EVERY person making over $75,000 a year from now until 2010 you will not even come close to making up the debt that the Obama administration is going to pile on our shoulders, which are already bearing quite a load....

    If you would like to research a little of this, a good place to start is here
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/assets/fy2010_new_era/Summary_Tables2.pdf
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