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Colorado Shooting

LasabarLasabar Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭
I'm sure we've all heard/read/seen about the shooting in Colorado and my heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to those people. I cannot even think about what that is like to be in a room full of people all panicking at the same time and having to react to that. It's truly a travesty that so many people were injured or killed.

For those of you that are firearm people and me getting into the hobby I have a question. Have you ever broken a law or taken a weapon (Concealed or not) where it was prohibited for you'd rather be safe and have a ticket than be threatened?

I know that if you take a gun where it is prohibited the repercussions are limitless and they could fine you, jail you, and your rights to your own weapons would be at stake, but here's an example I'm thinking about.

At my job there is no firearms allowed in the building, open or concealed, and the companies rules also state that you cannot have a weapon on property (i.e. even in the parking lot)
But after this shooting, I'm wondering if I couldn't keep a gun in my car and that I'd rather have "somewhat" of a close weapon than no weapon at all, and if I truly needed the weapon I know if I used it I could potentially be fired, but I'd rather have no job and my life than follow the rules and be harmed. (I also understand that a gun in my car is potentially useless and for it to truly be effective it would have to be on my person, but I would not take that chance when there is no threat even though I'd like to)

Keep in mind of the author of this thread, I will not engage in any political stuff or arguments, I will most likely be drunk soon, but just wondered if anyone else has had these thoughts that my life is more important than some laws...
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Comments

  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    eh, it was horrible as are all of these things but I don't think this one person should ruin it for all of us. I've heard nothing today about how we should make ar-15's illegal and it would be for the law being allowed to expire and all that jazz. But you know one thing a lot of people care to forget, if it was illegal people could still get them, so making them illegal will do nothing really. I don't know what was up with this guy who did this but it seems he had his head on right at least b4 this.

    I know a few people who are gun nuts (not the crazy types) and they have conceal permits however they know how to use their weapon. I ran into a guy at a pizza place a few months ago, he was a biker religious dude that even said as much on his leathers and he was packing a glock on his belt fully exposed. I read it as CONCEALED permit not "hey look at my gun" permit. I talked to him about it, tried to ask him why he was wearing it out in the open and he said it was his right and all that. I simply said, "dude, there are children here and family's, it's a bit inappropriate." He was all about he would protect people if someone came in shooting. I found it rather silly as most of the time it ends up people like him shoot another patron or get shot by the cops. Either way he was a whack job.

    I would rather guns not be accessible by people like him however it ain't going to happen. Guns are guns and ultimately if it wasn't guns it would be something else that kills us. I sure hope that this doesn't lead to having the TSA at theaters now. I mean They are already going to be around malls and stuff soon.
  • Roberto99Roberto99 Posts: 1,077
    Lasabar:
    I'm sure we've all heard/read/seen about the shooting in Colorado and my heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to those people. I cannot even think about what that is like to be in a room full of people all panicking at the same time and having to react to that. It's truly a travesty that so many people were injured or killed.

    For those of you that are firearm people and me getting into the hobby I have a question. Have you ever broken a law or taken a weapon (Concealed or not) where it was prohibited for you'd rather be safe and have a ticket than be threatened?

    I know that if you take a gun where it is prohibited the repercussions are limitless and they could fine you, jail you, and your rights to your own weapons would be at stake, but here's an example I'm thinking about.

    At my job there is no firearms allowed in the building, open or concealed, and the companies rules also state that you cannot have a weapon on property (i.e. even in the parking lot)
    But after this shooting, I'm wondering if I couldn't keep a gun in my car and that I'd rather have "somewhat" of a close weapon than no weapon at all, and if I truly needed the weapon I know if I used it I could potentially be fired, but I'd rather have no job and my life than follow the rules and be harmed. (I also understand that a gun in my car is potentially useless and for it to truly be effective it would have to be on my person, but I would not take that chance when there is no threat even though I'd like to)

    Keep in mind of the author of this thread, I will not engage in any political stuff or arguments, I will most likely be drunk soon, but just wondered if anyone else has had these thoughts that my life is more important than some laws...
    The answer would be the risk level are you comfortable with. Sounds like the repercussions of losing your job etc. if you get caught (which are more likely to happen) are pretty severe. Also think through the scenarios that could happen. Are you comfortable taking another persons life? Are you comfortable with the possibility that your intervention with a weapon might lead to the death of a bystander or even yourself? The job that you work at, is it one that would more likely be robbed or more likely one that someone would come in and just open fire? These are some of the things I would consider before I would bring a gun to work.

    At my work, it would more likely be robbery and we decided that it would be more dangerous to confront the robber with a weapon than to just let them take what they want and then let the police do their thing. Of course we are not in control of what scenerio might possibly happen so like I said it's all about what you are comfortable with. If the perceived danger increases in my area that might change my decision also.

    That's where I'm at anyhow. Maybe our experts in the police that are members here would have a better perspective.
  • LasabarLasabar Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭
    All good points so far.

    I think I could take a life if my life were on the line. I also know the scenarios in which my firearm is not by me do me no good even if it's closer as in the car.

    I also had the reaction to 12 dead and 70 injured that if Colorado had a CCW and someone was carrying the situation might be lessened.
  • nickiamnickiam Posts: 608 ✭✭
    I used to carry all the time. I didnt care. My conceal and carry instructor made a great point in the class, he said "If you are concealing the weapon like you are supposed to how is anyone going to know you are breaking the law. Is a ticket or some legal trouble worth more than your life or the life of one you love".

    The question is, is it?

    To me it wasnt. I worked in a place that i would have more than likely spent a lot of time in jail for if i had been caught, but to me...the people that i worked with and their lives were more important to me than the legal problems i could have potentially had.
  • Jetmech_63Jetmech_63 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭
    The only time I do it is when I'm on an overnight or multi night backpacking/camping outing. Due to some California law wording, you can't carry concealed in the backcontry, but I always have either a 45 or 44, usually the latter. Most of the rangers don't care as long as you're not drunk or doing something stupid. It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6. But ive never illegally carried anywhere else.
  • 0patience0patience Oregon CoastPosts: 9,645 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jetmech_63:
    The only time I do it is when I'm on an overnight or multi night backpacking/camping outing. Due to some California law wording, you can't carry concealed in the backcontry, but I always have either a 45 or 44, usually the latter. Most of the rangers don't care as long as you're not drunk or doing something stupid. It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6. But ive never illegally carried anywhere else.
    I must be missing something. Are you saying you cannot carry a weapon at all in the back country of CA?
    Or that you can't carry a concealed weapon into the back country? If that is the case, why can't you carry on a hip holster?
    I can't imagine going into the woods without a weapon. Least not around here.

    One thing to consider. Even some law enforcement and some military have difficulties knowing for certain where there target is in the midst of a heated gunfight. I've seen first hand where a gunfight erupted and while the parties were less than 50 ft apart, at least 12 shots were fired and not one hit anything.

    So if you carry a weapon, are you certain that you will have the mindset to not let adrenaline escalate your senses and cause you to miscalculate?
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    0patience:
    Jetmech_63:
    The only time I do it is when I'm on an overnight or multi night backpacking/camping outing. Due to some California law wording, you can't carry concealed in the backcontry, but I always have either a 45 or 44, usually the latter. Most of the rangers don't care as long as you're not drunk or doing something stupid. It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6. But ive never illegally carried anywhere else.
    I must be missing something. Are you saying you cannot carry a weapon at all in the back country of CA?
    Or that you can't carry a concealed weapon into the back country? If that is the case, why can't you carry on a hip holster?
    I can't imagine going into the woods without a weapon. Least not around here.

    One thing to consider. Even some law enforcement and some military have difficulties knowing for certain where there target is in the midst of a heated gunfight. I've seen first hand where a gunfight erupted and while the parties were less than 50 ft apart, at least 12 shots were fired and not one hit anything.

    So if you carry a weapon, are you certain that you will have the mindset to not let adrenaline escalate your senses and cause you to miscalculate?
    I'd rather be on the safe side and have it then not... Ive been on the not side several times; hence, I'm a gun owner now. I'll take the gun in that situation 100% of the time.
  • bigfnstevebigfnsteve Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    0patience:
    Jetmech_63:
    The only time I do it is when I'm on an overnight or multi night backpacking/camping outing. Due to some California law wording, you can't carry concealed in the backcontry, but I always have either a 45 or 44, usually the latter. Most of the rangers don't care as long as you're not drunk or doing something stupid. It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6. But ive never illegally carried anywhere else.
    I must be missing something. Are you saying you cannot carry a weapon at all in the back country of CA?
    Or that you can't carry a concealed weapon into the back country? If that is the case, why can't you carry on a hip holster?
    I can't imagine going into the woods without a weapon. Least not around here.

    One thing to consider. Even some law enforcement and some military have difficulties knowing for certain where there target is in the midst of a heated gunfight. I've seen first hand where a gunfight erupted and while the parties were less than 50 ft apart, at least 12 shots were fired and not one hit anything.

    So if you carry a weapon, are you certain that you will have the mindset to not let adrenaline escalate your senses and cause you to miscalculate?
    I'd rather be on the safe side and have it then not... Ive been on the not side several times; hence, I'm a gun owner now. I'll take the gun in that situation 100% of the time.
    Yuppers...luckily here in washington state the cwp is farely easy to get. Only place I dont carry are barssporting events where alcohol is involved. I`ve drawn once and hopefully the last time.
    A guy tried to jump through my passenger window.. As another car was pulling out of a parking stall in front of me (in a safeway parking lot). So i leaned over and started to pull my Glock21. . Luckily when he realized what was going on he scurried away as I drew. Scariest single event of my life.
    The police were called by myself and some people who witnessed it. While waiting for the cops to show up I unchambered the weapon and dropped the mag and placed it on the hood (as advised by the dispatcher). The cops drew on me as they got out of there cars told be get on my belly and patted me down asked were the weapon was and I told them. They picked it up cleared it then proceeded to drop it. He then bent over to grab it and kicked it. Scuffing the slide. Cops ran my info and talked to the people who saw the event. The one cop mentioned something about a brandishing charge. But nothing came of it.
    I can honestly say I was shaking for a couple of hours afterwards and Ill never forget that mans eyes. I was scarred. A scuffed slide and dealing with some cops who didn`t exactly make it easy on me was well worth the end result. Had I not been carrying who knows what would have happened or if he hadnt gotten out of the window in that instant. 7 years later I still carry and dont think twice about it. Ive seen what 185 grain +p golden sabres do to fruits and vegetables hopefully thats the only I thing I ever see destroyed by those things.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    I went over this with my barracks mates last night. I have a permit and carry concealed back home. But if I was in that movie theater, I don't think I, or anyone else, would have been able to effectively employ a weapon to end the situation. The confusion, the crowd, darkness, smoke/gas, being outgunned... I think a handgun would have only been useful if you took up a defensive position, then the bad guy found you.

    I think a better response would be, "well, I'm probably gonna get shot anyway, might as well try to tackle the guy from the rear/side." But that's given the benefit of knowing he was the only gunman, which the people in the theater probably couldn't know.

    Not being there, it's easy to say what you would have wanted to do. Actually carrying that out in real time is a different story.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    To the original question, with all the different rules on where you can or can't carry, it's almost impossible. Unless I was willing to leave my weapon in your car (I'm not), when I go into places that prohibit it, I would pretty much just have to leave it home.

    I'm concerned that now more places are going to ban firearms, including concealed carry, even though it's obvious that such a policy wouldn't have prevented this tragedy.
  • JCizzleJCizzle NYCPosts: 1,912 ✭✭
    My thought on this--and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this--is that he didn't get taken out on sight. Now the trial is going to be a media frenzy and this nutjob is going to get the attention he wants.
    Light 'em up.
  • TheedgeTheedge Posts: 316
    In Minnesota if a business doesn't want you to carry they need to post a sign in a very specific manner, most of the signs I see don't meet that standard. They can also ask you in person not to carry, but why would they ever see your gun? I guess I can't imagine having a problem if a person is acting responsibly.

    I tend to see a lot of signs on places such as shopping malls too. Our law specifically states that a land lord can not restrict it's tenants or guests from concealed carry. If you google concealed carry Mall of America you can see some funny stories and videos of people testing that law.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    The local B&M that I visit caters to a group of law enforcement members. When I go to an event there, its not uncommon for 3 or 4 of them having a concealed weapon. Sometimes they are holstered and unconcealed. I feel very safe there. LOL.
    For whats its' worth, I'm an old peace-nic from the 70's and have never handled a weapon. But, I'd scratch a man's eyes out to protect your 2nd amendment rights.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    Beatnic, which B&M is that? Is it the one on Magazine St? I know a lot of cops smoke there, sometimes on duty.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Scrambler:
    Beatnic, which B&M is that? Is it the one on Magazine St? I know a lot of cops smoke there, sometimes on duty.
    The one I was referring to was Don Juans in Metairie, but yes, there's also a group that goes to Mayan Imports on Magazine.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    Cool, I know there's a bit of overlap between those two groups. I've most likely seen you at one or the other.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Scrambler:
    Cool, I know there's a bit of overlap between those two groups. I've most likely seen you at one or the other.
    You surely didn't see me in Kosovo.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Scrambler:
    I went over this with my barracks mates last night. I have a permit and carry concealed back home. But if I was in that movie theater, I don't think I, or anyone else, would have been able to effectively employ a weapon to end the situation. The confusion, the crowd, darkness, smoke/gas, being outgunned... I think a handgun would have only been useful if you took up a defensive position, then the bad guy found you.

    I think a better response would be, "well, I'm probably gonna get shot anyway, might as well try to tackle the guy from the rear/side." But that's given the benefit of knowing he was the only gunman, which the people in the theater probably couldn't know.

    Not being there, it's easy to say what you would have wanted to do. Actually carrying that out in real time is a different story.
    I'd imagine this was probably the case; however, if per chance someone was in the position to take him down and had the chance, I'd rather be armed then not. There is too many factors really...give me my weapon any day, all day, and if I had the shot I'd take it. If I didn't, no telling what I wuold do. Most of us whom are comfortable with their firearm, I think would...because pretty much everyone i know whom carries, or would if they could......has BALLS.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    beatnic:
    Scrambler:
    Cool, I know there's a bit of overlap between those two groups. I've most likely seen you at one or the other.
    You surely didn't see me in Kosovo.
    Haha, I'd imagine not. I sent you a PM rather than go further off topic here than I already have.
  • ScramblerScrambler Posts: 746 ✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Scrambler:
    I went over this with my barracks mates last night. I have a permit and carry concealed back home. But if I was in that movie theater, I don't think I, or anyone else, would have been able to effectively employ a weapon to end the situation. The confusion, the crowd, darkness, smoke/gas, being outgunned... I think a handgun would have only been useful if you took up a defensive position, then the bad guy found you.

    I think a better response would be, "well, I'm probably gonna get shot anyway, might as well try to tackle the guy from the rear/side." But that's given the benefit of knowing he was the only gunman, which the people in the theater probably couldn't know.

    Not being there, it's easy to say what you would have wanted to do. Actually carrying that out in real time is a different story.
    I'd imagine this was probably the case; however, if per chance someone was in the position to take him down and had the chance, I'd rather be armed then not. There is too many factors really...give me my weapon any day, all day, and if I had the shot I'd take it. If I didn't, no telling what I wuold do. Most of us whom are comfortable with their firearm, I think would...because pretty much everyone i know whom carries, or would if they could......has BALLS.
    Certainly, I'd rather have my gun that not. But without positive threat identification and clear visibility, any rounds you fire could just add to the problem. One article I was reading talked of rounds penetrating into the next theater over and striking people. But yes, I would rather be ready if the shot did present itself, than be unarmed.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    eh, it was horrible as are all of these things but I don't think this one person should ruin it for all of us. I've heard nothing today about how we should make ar-15's illegal and it would be for the law being allowed to expire and all that jazz. But you know one thing a lot of people care to forget, if it was illegal people could still get them, so making them illegal will do nothing really. I don't know what was up with this guy who did this but it seems he had his head on right at least b4 this.

    I know a few people who are gun nuts (not the crazy types) and they have conceal permits however they know how to use their weapon. I ran into a guy at a pizza place a few months ago, he was a biker religious dude that even said as much on his leathers and he was packing a glock on his belt fully exposed. I read it as CONCEALED permit not "hey look at my gun" permit. I talked to him about it, tried to ask him why he was wearing it out in the open and he said it was his right and all that. I simply said, "dude, there are children here and family's, it's a bit inappropriate." He was all about he would protect people if someone came in shooting. I found it rather silly as most of the time it ends up people like him shoot another patron or get shot by the cops. Either way he was a whack job.

    I would rather guns not be accessible by people like him however it ain't going to happen. Guns are guns and ultimately if it wasn't guns it would be something else that kills us. I sure hope that this doesn't lead to having the TSA at theaters now. I mean They are already going to be around malls and stuff soon.
    Theres nothing illegal about carrying a firearm in plain site, and a conceal permit is not required. Would you feel the same if he had a badge or wore a uniform.. He's well within his rights,,and i see it as a deturrent of any would be criminal/assaillant,, the only abnormality is that most citizens dont do this, but if you went back a couple hundred years it was commonplace. There are laws regarding firearms on school grounds govt buildings which prevent citizens from being armed..
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Scrambler:
    catfishbluezz:
    Scrambler:
    I went over this with my barracks mates last night. I have a permit and carry concealed back home. But if I was in that movie theater, I don't think I, or anyone else, would have been able to effectively employ a weapon to end the situation. The confusion, the crowd, darkness, smoke/gas, being outgunned... I think a handgun would have only been useful if you took up a defensive position, then the bad guy found you.

    I think a better response would be, "well, I'm probably gonna get shot anyway, might as well try to tackle the guy from the rear/side." But that's given the benefit of knowing he was the only gunman, which the people in the theater probably couldn't know.

    Not being there, it's easy to say what you would have wanted to do. Actually carrying that out in real time is a different story.
    I'd imagine this was probably the case; however, if per chance someone was in the position to take him down and had the chance, I'd rather be armed then not. There is too many factors really...give me my weapon any day, all day, and if I had the shot I'd take it. If I didn't, no telling what I wuold do. Most of us whom are comfortable with their firearm, I think would...because pretty much everyone i know whom carries, or would if they could......has BALLS.
    Certainly, I'd rather have my gun that not. But without positive threat identification and clear visibility, any rounds you fire could just add to the problem. One article I was reading talked of rounds penetrating into the next theater over and striking people. But yes, I would rather be ready if the shot did present itself, than be unarmed.
    Exactly...which is why we can't really argue the situation. I know if it were me, I wouldn't blindly fire.... That's kind of the point of going through extensive training. I am not an extremely experienced marksman, but I know without a doubt...i am extremely confident with my pistol as I have spent years on the range with it. All the guys I know that do carry, if they are not PO's, are actively engaged in defenisve classes on a regular basis. I am not for people carrying, I am for people whom take the time, have the balls, honor, and discipline to learn how to react in these situations to carry. For me, I would not consider carrying until I've spent that much time. I'm actually moving back to my home town and will be on the range consistently again, and learning with these guys.
  • letsgowithbobletsgowithbob Posts: 677 ✭✭
    Lassie, I would think about it like this. Why do you want the gun to be in your car? It is completely useless there for work related situations. If some nutjob comes into your job, and starts shooting people what are you going to do? For myself, I would try to stop the guy if possible, if not, I would try to get outside. Once there, there is no way I would go back in the building. Chances are by the time you were out of the building and on your way back with a gun, people would assume you were one of the shooters, and if police showed up, they would be looking for the shooter and you( and not in a good mood).

    For the self defense plea to work, it has to be self defense. If you went out to your car, and went back in, it seems to me like you would be spending some serious time behind bars, I couldn't do that part.

    Now if you want the gun for the drive to and from work, and if you stop at the store, I say go for it. Most states have laws that say you can keep it in your personal vehicle if you have a concealed carry permit. I would definitely have one. My wife is finally getting hers.

    I look at it like this. If I don't have a gun on me, it's useless....thats pretty much it.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 5,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JCizzle:
    My thought on this--and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this--is that he didn't get taken out on sight. Now the trial is going to be a media frenzy and this nutjob is going to get the attention he wants.
    Exactly!
    Now, with that said, if he'd not been able to get firearms, he could have simply devised a way to introduce a large quantity of gasoline and a spark to the theater.

    And then they'd outlaw gasoline, right? OF COURSE NOT!
    For me, the dwindling freedoms we have left in the West hinge on the American population remaining armed to the teeth, and being willing to fight for freedom here.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • webmostwebmost Dull-AwarePosts: 6,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The reason weapons were guaranteed us in the Constitution was plainly not for duck hunting, nor for self-defense, nor for target practice. It was so we could kill tyrants.

    This right was guaranteed us by men who had recently gambled their lives in bloody revolt. Their idea was born of centuries of stooges in tin suits who stifled and bled the populace on the behalf of high handed monarchs. Why did Paul Revere ride at night? To alert the colonists that redcoats were coming to confiscate their weapons. Why did the French storm the Bastille? Because it was an armory. Bolivar did not make weapons; weapons made the Bolivar. Muskets. Gunpowder. Not empty speeches. Assault weapons. Not enlightened philosophes pondering ideals at the Academie Francais. The fact any armed citizen could punch a hole through a tin suit. That's what did the trick. Muskets made men free.

    Some will die ensuring this freedom. Freedom does not come for free.

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is but a subject. There is no doubt about this whatever. Now, our short sighted modern American socialist liberals disregard history at our grandchildren's peril. They delude themselves that it's all different now. They always prefer to think that the correct thought is the prettiest belief. They daydream of a benevolent government smarter and kinder and more responsible than people. Fairy tales. Government is a scheme whereby the rich and powerful perpetuate their pilth and power. Always has been. Always will be. Will always take things as far as it can until it is stopped. This is not Disneyland. Do not despise history. These are the leopard's spots. In the long sweep of history, there has never once been a good government. There have only been too few, too far apart, for too brief a time, which have at least not been bad enough to warrant the torrents of blood and chaos required to overthrow them for an uncertain result.
    image

    Get real. Your right to bear arms is no more about 12 people killed in a movie theater than your automobile is about 120 people who died that same day in auto accidents.

    “It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)


  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    The reality is that easy access to assult weapons like the AR 15, with 100 round magazines, by the general public, is creating a Clockwork Orange society, not a society that is able to defend itself from "tyrants". Having to endure senseless mass killings in order to maintain the "liberty" of arming yourself to the teeth so that you can protect yourself from people who are armed to the teeth is neither a sane nor civil way to live.

    "...Now, our short sighted modern American socialist liberals disregard history at our grandchildren's peril. They delude themselves that it's all different now. They always prefer to think that the correct thought is the prettiest belief. They daydream of a benevolent government smarter and kinder and more responsible than people. Fairy tales. ..."

    "Define your enemy and speak for him." - Joseph Goebbels

  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    "...In the long sweep of history, there has never once been a good government. ..."

    This may be the single most hateful statement I have ever heard anyone say about the Government of the United States of America. The hate behind this statement should not be reviled, but rather pitied, because it is truly pitiful and singularly ugly.

    I love the United States of America, and our great good government that has declared that common men and women shall be equal before the law, and that the authority of the elected shall derive from the consent of the governed. I say the government of the United States of America is a good government, and shall remain so as long as the people of the United States remain good, and true to the ideals that allow us to live in freedom and prosperity. Those who doubt it would do well to remember these words:

    "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

    But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

    Abraham Lincoln

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still."

    Ronald Reagan
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    JDH:
    "...In the long sweep of history, there has never once been a good government. ..."

    This may be the single most hateful statement I have ever heard anyone say about the Government of the United States of America. The hate behind this statement should not be reviled, but rather pitied, because it is truly pitiful and singularly ugly.

    I love the United States of America, and our great good government that has declared that common men and women shall be equal before the law, and that the authority of the elected shall derive from the consent of the governed. I say the government of the United States of America is a good government, and shall remain so as long as the people of the United States remain good, and true to the ideals that allow us to live in freedom and prosperity. Those who doubt it would do well to remember these words:

    "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

    But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

    Abraham Lincoln

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still."

    Ronald Reagan
    Ask JFK what he thinks about all this????
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    I intend to, if the opportunity ever presents itself.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 5,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see sides of Webmost and JDH's positions, each. Probably more common ground than it may seem on the surface.

    About a year ago, the nut-job in Norway committed acts of atrocity similar to that which sparked this conversation, does anyone know what Norways gun laws are like? I heard someone on the news say something along the lines of "We're not in line with the other western nations on our gun laws" , So, I'm wondering if Norwegians have a similar sort of "2nd Amendment" type of guarantee? And, how did that affect the nut-job killer there?
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
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