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  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,844 ✭✭✭
    Separation of church and state huh, lol.
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    He must be a moron, Oh, I mean a Mormon.
    And your guy!LOL

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/21/joe-biden.html
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do you guys ever check PolitiFact? It's interesting to see our politicians' statements fact-checked, and then categorized between "true" and "pants on fire."

    To sum up my findings - they all say some pretty darn crazy things.

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    jgibv:
    Do you guys ever check PolitiFact? It's interesting to see our politicians' statements fact-checked, and then categorized between "true" and "pants on fire."

    To sum up my findings - they all say some pretty darn crazy things.
    Its the age of twitter and sound bites. LOL
    Have you ever read the Federalist Papers, or the letters of Jefferson and Madison, etc. These guys thought at a much deeper level than most men do today. Left, or right, they took great pains to fully explain their arguments, politely. We're just a mad pack of dogs screaming at each other. LOL.
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    beatnic:
    jgibv:
    Do you guys ever check PolitiFact? It's interesting to see our politicians' statements fact-checked, and then categorized between "true" and "pants on fire."

    To sum up my findings - they all say some pretty darn crazy things.
    Its the age of twitter and sound bites. LOL
    Have you ever read the Federalist Papers, or the letters of Jefferson and Madison, etc. These guys thought at a much deeper level than most men do today. Left, or right, they took great pains to fully explain their arguments, politely. We're just a mad pack of dogs screaming at each other. LOL.
    I'll agree with you on that one. It's all about quick sound bites, tag lines, and one-liners for today's seemingly ADHD, hyper-connected, over-saturated media loving society.

    And I have read the Federalist Papers, but it was many moons ago in my high school's US history class....that was a wonderful course, and I know I didn't fully appreciate it at the time.
    Once I finish up my current book I'll look to revisit the Federalist Papers and I'll pick up some other history books from this time period.

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    beatnic:
    He must be a moron, Oh, I mean a Mormon.
    And your guy!LOL

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/21/joe-biden.html
    lol, biden. So did you get all riled up over the unchained remark too? You know santorum used that rhetoric too, though it was about the healthcare law, which really was funny as no where in that law does it say your health care is run by the govt. And people are already having the use of death panels on their insurance.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    At least he doesn't think we have 56 States, or a small business owner didn't build their own business. And you'll notice that Biden said "ya'll", not "us" - as in, "Repubs are going to put ya'll back in chains, but I'll be fine"
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    He must be a moron, Oh, I mean a Mormon.
    And your guy!LOL

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/21/joe-biden.html
    lol, biden. So did you get all riled up over the unchained remark too? You know santorum used that rhetoric too, though it was about the healthcare law, which really was funny as no where in that law does it say your health care is run by the govt. And people are already having the use of death panels on their insurance.
    Riled up at a Biden gaffe? Heck no. I look forward to them. At least he's not fake, just a bit wacko. I don't get riled up at anything except the liberals feigning riled up over the littlest of sh$t
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,844 ✭✭✭
    Barack is right....small business owners didnt build their own business. Without the roads funded by govt, often govt loans, some protections for small business, ect. No one builds something on their own, there is always someone else to assist in life....thats why we are a society and a people, not strictly individuals. I was amazed by the right wing for jumping on this as well, because wouldnt they be the first to say they cant do anything without god?
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Barack is right....small business owners didnt build their own business. Without the roads funded by govt, often govt loans, some protections for small business, ect. No one builds something on their own, there is always someone else to assist in life....thats why we are a society and a people, not strictly individuals. I was amazed by the right wing for jumping on this as well, because wouldnt they be the first to say they cant do anything without god?
    the government had to take the money from the business owners and people to build those roads. i mean, where do you think government gets its funding?
    so in a way, the small businesses DID build those roads.

    also, in the former USSR there was PLENTY of infrastructure yet businesses were failing and ultimately the country also failed. so clearly roads, bridges, etc are not what builds a business or a country.

    I have my own small business. i ran it out of my house for years. the government didnt build my house. the government didnt buy my equipment. the government didnt advertise for me. the government didnt do a single thing for me. however, they DID regulate the fact that i couldnt sell my product out of state even though my kitchen was cleaner and safer than any industrial kitchen i have ever been in (and thats saying quite a bit considering what my other job is). i had to pay thousands of dollars (that almost ran me out of business because of it) to comply with these regulations and it didnt improve my product one lick.

    yet another thought... it also isnt always about who assists who. i mean, if i open a restaurant i have plenty of people helping me... but none of those people helping me would be there if it wasnt for me. even if there is help, the credit for starting the business and building the business goes to the brainchild, not the helpers.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    another thought (from an agnostic at that):
    the government forces their help on you.
    you have to willingly invite God to help you.

  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Vulchor:
    Barack is right....small business owners didnt build their own business. Without the roads funded by govt, often govt loans, some protections for small business, ect. No one builds something on their own, there is always someone else to assist in life....thats why we are a society and a people, not strictly individuals. I was amazed by the right wing for jumping on this as well, because wouldnt they be the first to say they cant do anything without god?
    I built my consulting business by taking out a 1/4M dollar loan. I paid it back. Since I work for energy companies, I'm held to certain standards as to insurance, mandated by the government. Just wrote a check for $23K. My personal taxes are based on the total income of my business, not my take home pay. I'm one of those who gross over $250 in business that they want to increase taxes for even though my take home pay is in the mid 10k range. I own my own equipment, office, and offer my employees healthcare insurance. I pay for retirement investment help and a CPA to keep current with the ever changing tax laws. For the life of me, I can't think of one thing the government has done for me. Don't even get me started on state-controlled worker's comp. You can talk till you're blue in the face, Vulchor. I built my business. The funny thing is, I would gladly expand my business and hire many more employees if the regulations allowed me to. He's killing small business. Face the truth dude. Have a good evening.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    beatnic:
    jgibv:
    Do you guys ever check PolitiFact? It's interesting to see our politicians' statements fact-checked, and then categorized between "true" and "pants on fire."

    To sum up my findings - they all say some pretty darn crazy things.
    Its the age of twitter and sound bites. LOL
    Have you ever read the Federalist Papers, or the letters of Jefferson and Madison, etc. These guys thought at a much deeper level than most men do today. Left, or right, they took great pains to fully explain their arguments, politely. We're just a mad pack of dogs screaming at each other. LOL.
    They had TIME to deleberate, to think before expressing thought, time to be serious and exact in their ideas. TV, (the corporate entity that benefits most from the de-regulation of campaign finance) has turned our elections into a game show.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,844 ✭✭✭
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    This is true. One of the the things that makes this country great is that it allows people to achieve - to follow their dreams - to fail, and learn from failure, and start over again - to grow in the persuit of happiness. However, if you think that government is only an impediment to those persuits, then I would suggest you go to another country where there is no government presence in the economy, where the government has made no infrastructure, no roads, no bridges, no hydroelectric dams, no public education, no business regulations, no safety regulations, no labor regulations, no national parks to enjoy, ect., ect., ect., and try to persue your dreams there.

    Personally, I am sick to death of hearing people whine about how much they hate their own government. If you hate the government that much why not just move to some nice place like Mexico, or Indonesia, or Chile, or Egypt, or Thiland, but whereever it is, just make sure you can have as many guns as you possibly can, 'cause you sure wouldn't want to be loosing any liberty when you re-locate.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    i am not twisting your words at all.
    i know exactly what you mean. i understand that without roads goods dont ship. i understand that many educations are received in public schools. i understand that government provides those things. (after they take the money from the people that created the wealth)

    my thought here is this:
    since everyone gets those things from the government how do you explain the fact that not all business are successful?

    those failing businesses, did the government force them to fail?

    what makes a business good, or bad, is the people running them. as i pointed out in my other post, infrastructure does not make a business or a country. the USSR is prime example.


    roads dont exist because of the good nature of the government. they exist because it just happens to be the most convenient way for a group of people to organize a city/state wide project. it is very possible for private companies to build roads and make it profitable. in a smaller scale it happens all the time. Construction companies do it all the time. if they build a business park they will build the roads to go along with them. it is profitable to the company to do so.
    if they build a housing development, often they will build the roads because in the long run it will be profitable to do so.


    roads and infrastructure built my business about as much as air and water did. yes i used air and water while building my business, but those are not the things that helped me.

    I do get what you are saying. i understand that roads, made by government, are convenient to my business, but it diminishes my efforts to say that i "didnt build that."
    I DID build my business and it wouldnt exist without ME. no matter how much help i may have received, i was the instigator, the driving force, and the builder of my business.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    JDH:
    Personally, I am sick to death of hearing people whine about how much they hate their own government. If you hate the government that much why not just move to some nice place like Mexico, or Indonesia, or Chile, or Egypt, or Thiland, but whereever it is, just make sure you can have as many guns as you possibly can, 'cause you sure wouldn't want to be loosing any liberty when you re-locate.
    all of the places you listed, save for maybe one, are all more restricted than our country.

    so, right now, the US one of the freest countries in the world. people want it to remain free. one common thread within countries that are not free is government largess.
    this country (much like it did in Rome) is starting to creep in the direction of larger, more oppressive, more corrupt government. trying to stop that or reverse that is just people looking down the road and preventing the next generations from living in an Orwellian state.

    moving solves nothing. every government has issues. even the very best system has issues.
    not complaining about it is a sign of complacency. just because we dont suck as much as other places doesnt mean we should shut up and deal with it.

    i hope i always strive for something better, in every aspect in my life.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,844 ✭✭✭
    I dont think it diminishes your efforts at all, it just shows that everything and everyone are reliant in some way on others and the services they provide or assistance they impart. To not ackonwledge that, or the poeple who helped get you where you are today, seems to dimish the effort of many people who helped you become who you are.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    kuzi16:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    i am not twisting your words at all.
    i know exactly what you mean. i understand that without roads goods dont ship. i understand that many educations are received in public schools. i understand that government provides those things. (after they take the money from the people that created the wealth)

    my thought here is this:
    since everyone gets those things from the government how do you explain the fact that not all business are successful?

    those failing businesses, did the government force them to fail?

    what makes a business good, or bad, is the people running them. as i pointed out in my other post, infrastructure does not make a business or a country. the USSR is prime example.


    roads dont exist because of the good nature of the government. they exist because it just happens to be the most convenient way for a group of people to organize a city/state wide project. it is very possible for private companies to build roads and make it profitable. in a smaller scale it happens all the time. Construction companies do it all the time. if they build a business park they will build the roads to go along with them. it is profitable to the company to do so.
    if they build a housing development, often they will build the roads because in the long run it will be profitable to do so.


    roads and infrastructure built my business about as much as air and water did. yes i used air and water while building my business, but those are not the things that helped me.

    I do get what you are saying. i understand that roads, made by government, are convenient to my business, but it diminishes my efforts to say that i "didnt build that."
    I DID build that and it wouldnt exist without ME. no matter how much help i may have received, i was the instigator, the driving force, and the builder of my business.
    "...since everyone gets those things from the government how do you explain the fact that not all business are successful? ..." Because failure is often essential to success. How often dis Edison fail before succeeding? That's one reason I love baseball so much - its about overcoming failure with individual effort.

    "...infrastructure does not make a business or a country. ..." Go to some country without it and see how "successful" you are.

    "...roads dont exist because of the good nature of the government. they exist because it just happens to be the most convenient way for a group of people to organize a city/state wide project. ..." This statement is, with all dure respect, just patently false. I suggest you go do a quick study of the Eisenhower administration, and consider the Marshal Plan for Europe after WWII, and our own infrastructure improvements during his administration. Those improvements MADE Europe as we know it today, and allowed the unprescedented prosperity in the US during the 50's to take off. Additionally, there is no example that I'm aware of private companies creating infrastructure on the scale of national, or even state highways or dams, or bridges without governmental funding. It just would not happen without government doing what government is supposed to do to promote "the general welfare".

  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
    Yep, we'd all be better off it we'd just go back to the 1840's.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    JDH:
    "...since everyone gets those things from the government how do you explain the fact that not all business are successful? ..." Because failure is often essential to success. How often dis Edison fail before succeeding? That's one reason I love baseball so much - its about overcoming failure with individual effort.

    that explains exactly nothing. that says that failure exists. not why it exists.
    JDH:
    "...infrastructure does not make a business or a country. ..." Go to some country without it and see how "successful" you are.
    about as successful as the people that couldnt keep a business open in the USSR even though there was PLENTY of infrastructure.

    it was there. yet there was little to no success. CLEARLY that is not what makes a business. there is both success and failure in places where there is infrastructure and without. the argument that you cannot succeed where there is no infrastructure is not true.
    JDH:
    "...roads dont exist because of the good nature of the government. they exist because it just happens to be the most convenient way for a group of people to organize a city/state wide project. ..." This statement is, with all dure respect, just patently false. I suggest you go do a quick study of the Eisenhower administration, and consider the Marshal Plan for Europe after WWII, and our own infrastructure improvements during his administration. Those improvements MADE Europe as we know it today, and allowed the unprescedented prosperity in the US during the 50's to take off.
    marshal plan was rebuilding nations. yes it helped them. i agree with that. but individuals still had to do something with it. we didnt go there and build business. we build bridges. if the people of europe didnt rebuild their businesses all the bridges and roads that were built would mean exactly zero.

    as far as highways here are concerned...
    they were originally built as a means for an army to move around the country. should we be invaded, our army would have an easier time moving around the country making it easier to defend ourselves.

    i do agree that it had the positive externality of making commerce more convenient, but that still does not mean that the individual business owner "did not make" their own business.
    JDH:
    Additionally, there is no example that I'm aware of private companies creating infrastructure on the scale of national, or even state highways or dams, or bridges without governmental funding. It just would not happen without government doing what government is supposed to do to promote "the general welfare".

    that is true. i cannot think of an example on a national scale either. Many businesses would not find it as profitable. but as i mentioned above, those roads were not originally designed to be for profit. they were designed to move soldiers.

    but your quote there ("promote the general welfare") sparked a thought. it is "Promote the general welfare" not "create welfare" or "create success" or "create business" or "ensure success" or "ensure well-being"
    the concept is that the government will create an environment that will not prevent someone from being successful should one decide to put effort forth and create a business (again providing they do not violate the rights of others while creating said business).
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,844 ✭✭✭
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
    So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
    So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
    Beatnic, without going too off topic - have you ever read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown?
    If not, you should - it recounts the history of "manifest destiny" and westward expansion through the history/perspective of Native Americans.
    It's really a great read and very eye-opening, doesn't really pertain to this discussion, but the way some of these "pioneers" treated the Natives and deceived/lied/tricked them out of their land ... it will give you a different, less-romantic view of that era.
    /thread jack

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Vulchor:
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
    So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
    OK, I finally see. You do need government assistance.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    kuzi16:
    JDH:
    "...since everyone gets those things from the government how do you explain the fact that not all business are successful? ..." Because failure is often essential to success. How often dis Edison fail before succeeding? That's one reason I love baseball so much - its about overcoming failure with individual effort.

    that explains exactly nothing. that says that failure exists. not why it exists.
    JDH:
    "...infrastructure does not make a business or a country. ..." Go to some country without it and see how "successful" you are.
    about as successful as the people that couldnt keep a business open in the USSR even though there was PLENTY of infrastructure.

    it was there. yet there was little to no success. CLEARLY that is not what makes a business. there is both success and failure in places where there is infrastructure and without. the argument that you cannot succeed where there is no infrastructure is not true.
    JDH:
    "...roads dont exist because of the good nature of the government. they exist because it just happens to be the most convenient way for a group of people to organize a city/state wide project. ..." This statement is, with all dure respect, just patently false. I suggest you go do a quick study of the Eisenhower administration, and consider the Marshal Plan for Europe after WWII, and our own infrastructure improvements during his administration. Those improvements MADE Europe as we know it today, and allowed the unprescedented prosperity in the US during the 50's to take off.
    marshal plan was rebuilding nations. yes it helped them. i agree with that. but individuals still had to do something with it. we didnt go there and build business. we build bridges. if the people of europe didnt rebuild their businesses all the bridges and roads that were built would mean exactly zero.

    as far as highways here are concerned...
    they were originally built as a means for an army to move around the country. should we be invaded, our army would have an easier time moving around the country making it easier to defend ourselves.

    i do agree that it had the positive externality of making commerce more convenient, but that still does not mean that the individual business owner "did not make" their own business.
    JDH:
    Additionally, there is no example that I'm aware of private companies creating infrastructure on the scale of national, or even state highways or dams, or bridges without governmental funding. It just would not happen without government doing what government is supposed to do to promote "the general welfare".

    that is true. i cannot think of an example on a national scale either. Many businesses would not find it as profitable. but as i mentioned above, those roads were not originally designed to be for profit. they were designed to move soldiers.

    but your quote there ("promote the general welfare") sparked a thought. it is "Promote the general welfare" not "create welfare" or "create success" or "create business" or "ensure success" or "ensure well-being"
    the concept is that the government will create an environment that will not prevent someone from being successful should one decide to put effort forth and create a business (again providing they do not violate the rights of others while creating said business).
    Government has promoted the general welfare by building huge dams, which created cheap energy, that helped to create unprescedented commerce, or by building a great interstate highway system, which led to unprescedented interstate commerce, and by creating infrastructure for the airline industry, which has also led to unprescedented commerce, and by placing the internet in the public arena instead of being used exclusively by the military, which has led to unprescedented commerce. All of these actions by the government to create infrastructure has promoted commerce, and therefore promoted the general welfare, and made the accumulations of private wealth possible because we live in a capitalist economy, not a state -run economy, like the Soviet Uniion.

    Additionally, one must also consider the GW Bush approach to government, AKA "crony capitalism", whereby the government, and taxpayer dollars were seen as a cash cow to be plundered by favored corporations of his administration. If you believe there is no such thing as corporate welfare....
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    jgibv:
    Vulchor:
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    Well then Kuz, Beat, and other business owners we will have to agree to disagree. You can take words and twist them anyway you want---as I am ccused of doing by some here as well btw. The way I took hius statement, and the way I feel about it is that it is not done on your own. The roads needed to get to where you are were govt financed. The education you recvd to put you in the position you are, were paid by tax dollars-----and not just yours. Your parents, friends, influences, ect. all helped to get you where you are and your business where it is. You can tout your accoimplishment until youre blue in the face, but give some credit where it is due. There is no self made man. There are med who work harder and do more than others, but NO ONE does everything on their own. We are certainly deservoing of credit for out hard work, but so are the others who helped us get here.
    Next time you're in a government owned library, look up that story about all of the early inhabitants of your great state. They were called pioneers. Not sure what that means, but I trust the government used the correct terminology. Learn how the government educated them, and built roads and bridges and helped them move west, all the way to Oregon. Read about the many schools that were available to them along the way. Oh, and the general stores, stocked up with government rations. read about how they crossed mountains on government mules, and dined on quality controlled vegetables and steak. Got hurt? The government was right there with you bro. Providing you health care and aborting your unwanted children. Loans? There when you needed them. You're right. No man can do it on his own.
    So your comparing the moving West (or forced migration) of (I assume) the Indians/Native Americans to the small business operations of yourself and Kuzi....some 150+ years (and technological advances) later?
    Beatnic, without going too off topic - have you ever read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown?
    If not, you should - it recounts the history of "manifest destiny" and westward expansion through the history/perspective of Native Americans.
    It's really a great read and very eye-opening, doesn't really pertain to this discussion, but the way some of these "pioneers" treated the Natives and deceived/lied/tricked them out of their land ... it will give you a different, less-romantic view of that era.
    /thread jack
    I'm amazed. Truly amazed.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I dont think it diminishes your efforts at all, it just shows that everything and everyone are reliant in some way on others and the services they provide or assistance they impart. To not ackonwledge that, or the poeple who helped get you where you are today, seems to dimish the effort of many people who helped you become who you are.
    very interesting statement.
    i think the line that gets under people's skin is the line "you didnt build that"
    I agree that people help business owners. i get it. im there.
    gracious business owners will admit that they had help. however they are the ones that put it all together and organized that. they did build it, if not physically, then conceptually.
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,317 ✭✭✭✭✭
    beatnic:
    I'm amazed. Truly amazed.
    without seeming any stupider (if that's possible)...I'll ask - at what???
    Feel free to PM me so we don't thread jack any further if you'd like.

    I got the sarcasm from your post (at least I think that's what you were going for). And I recently read Bury My Heart - I'd over looked it before but since you mentioned looking up history books on the pioneers, I wanted to interject that this is worth reading as well, since it offers a more in-depth examination of the relationship between the Natives and the "settlers" and a different perspective that is often left out of other books.

    EDIT - After reading Kuzi's post & to elaborate on mine - I realize we're not discussing the "history of the pioneers/westward expansion/etc." but rather infrastructure .... so I see why most post seemed out of line since it wasn't directly related to the topic at hand.
    My fault, sorry for any confusion. But FWIW - it's still a good book if you're going to read up on that time period.

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

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