Middle East

Vulchor

So I have always been of the belief (or at least for the most part) that Islam is not a religion of hate. I maintain this feeling today, and still think it is the outlyers and "nut jobs" that give it a bad name. In the same way the Crusades and other horrific acts forever stain Christianity. HOWEVER, what I have always believed (and continue to) is that by in large "these people" are not fully formed **** sapiens. While I say that somewhat jokingly, and it does make me seem biggoted-----sorry, but its true to me. I dont feel like Arab Spring will ever be a success because I dont think you can have our form of govt. with people whose mindset (and in the case of Afganistan) and actual living arrangements are hundreds of years in the past and based around living in a cave and acting like an animal. I am not talking of all of course, certainly not, but I am referring to what seems to be a majority or at least a very vocal minority. We are wasting our time, money, and lives in 99% of what we do in the middle east. Be it for our financial gain, be it for Isreal (who casues more trouble for our nation than they help it), be it for whatever its kinda hard to use human rationale and reason with people that are not rational or seemingly fully human in the sense of thought.

phobicsquirrel

I'm of a belief that people that are truly religious do not act out or on people who disagree with them. The people that get upset over things such as what is going on now has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with their limited scope of reality. It's like little kids on a playground, someone makes fun of their mom and they get into a fight, though that is a personal attack it may not be the same as saying my God has a bigger *** than your God. George Carlin covered this type of thing very well. I know that south park got a lot of heat for showing Mohammed and in their sequel to that episode decided to censor him. The middle east has always been a sewer. One of the reasons why any nation shouldn't get involved there. Now if the UN or whole security council did that would be another thing since so many nations would be sharing the cost and blame. However our terrific government doesn't think the smart way.

Rain

Part of the problem is that a lot of these people are just not very educated. They can't read the Qoran and form their own opinions. They rely on religious leaders to TELL them what it says and what they should believe. Obviously, I'm not talking about all Muslims.

Gray4lines

I think it's simply that we cannot go in and TELL them what to do. The people there will have to choose what they want, and when they do. Surely they are under more governmental pressure and can't make choices like we do here in the U.S., but if enough people want a change it will not be stopped. So yes, I agree, telling them how to live, and act politically is probably a waste. Once those people get a taste of freedom though, they will want more

Rain

As Gray said, you can't go in and tell people who have lived one way for thousands of years how to live, either.

jadelt

Gray4lines:

I think it's simply that we cannot go in and TELL them what to do. The people there will have to choose what they want, and when they do. Surely they are under more governmental pressure and can't make choices like we do here in the U.S., but if enough people want a change it will not be stopped. So yes, I agree, telling them how to live, and act politically is probably a waste. Once those people get a taste of freedom though, they will want more

Changing a 'culture' takes at minimum one generation usually two.

The only effective way to change a culture is to change the schools and teach young kids new ideas. Parents will reject the new ideas and the kids will only get some of it and the teachers will be persecuted. Right now schools teach the old culture and that is what the kids grow up to believe. Until you change the schooling of the kids not much changes.

phobicsquirrel

Rain:

As Gray said, you can't go in and tell people who have lived one way for thousands of years how to live, either.

very true, but it's not like that hasn't been done before. a lot of these countries over threw their govt only to have more problems and the US isn't exactly helping by not intervening. Like Egypt, the govt there isn't really changing all too fast. I think this video that was made has just lit more of a fire to an already problematic issue.

phobicsquirrel

Rain:

Part of the problem is that a lot of these people are just not very educated. They can't read the Qoran and form their own opinions. They rely on religious leaders to TELL them what it says and what they should believe. Obviously, I'm not talking about all Muslims.

Seems this is a problem in a lot of places just not in the middle east. Yes, Muslims make up most of the religious world. a few million out of a billion and a half or so isn't very many.

beatnic

Evolution doesn't happen overnight.

rzaman

The main reason is the natural resources they sits on which will always bring the foreign powers back and forth for the corporate interest. The government is simply an element of their interest. Why helping The Lybian so quickly and not the Syria? Because one has so much oil and the other doesn't. Religion is not the factor here. The main factor is have and have not. They have oil and industrialized nations need that to keep the factories running. Hard truth but that's the reality. Using religious believe, freedom of speech are the elements to control the situation. Every citizen of each religion wants peace not the clash but Unfortunetly they drawn into this with a group of small people who hold the majority wealth of this universe. Another example is the volatile Africa Continent.

The_Kid

rzaman:

The main reason is the natural resources they sits on which will always bring the foreign powers back and forth for the corporate interest. The government is simply an element of their interest. .

+1 and to seek out and destroy terrorist groups hezbollah, al qaeda, Taliban, who destabilize the regions and pose a security threat to the US and our interests.

jgibv

rzaman:

The main reason is the natural resources they sits on which will always bring the foreign powers back and forth for the corporate interest. The government is simply an element of their interest. .

+2

The Kid:

+1 and to seek out and destroy terrorist groups hezbollah, al qaeda, Taliban, who destabilize the regions and pose a security threat to the US and our interests.

(aka pose a threat to natural resources/oil - which would in turn threaten industrial processes/manufacturers and the US economy)

Rail_Jockey

One of my best friends did several tours over there and he looked me right in the eyes and said and i quote...."there are two types of people over there, ones who plant IED's and ones that know their planted." i would not trade one marine, or any one of our military personel for a million if them. Im sorry to the people i have offended with this post.

gmill880

Vulchor:

So I have always been of the belief (or at least for the most part) that Islam is not a religion of hate. I maintain this feeling today, and still think it is the outlyers and "nut jobs" that give it a bad name. In the same way the Crusades and other horrific acts forever stain Christianity. HOWEVER, what I have always believed (and continue to) is that by in large "these people" are not fully formed **** sapiens. While I say that somewhat jokingly, and it does make me seem biggoted-----sorry, but its true to me. I dont feel like Arab Spring will ever be a success because I dont think you can have our form of govt. with people whose mindset (and in the case of Afganistan) and actual living arrangements are hundreds of years in the past and based around living in a cave and acting like an animal. I am not talking of all of course, certainly not, but I am referring to what seems to be a majority or at least a very vocal minority. We are wasting our time, money, and lives in 99% of what we do in the middle east. Be it for our financial gain, be it for Isreal (who casues more trouble for our nation than they help it), be it for whatever its kinda hard to use human rationale and reason with people that are not rational or seemingly fully human in the sense of thought.

Agree with most of this post Vulchor . The Isreal part ... hmmmm ... I don't think Isreal can cause problems for the U.S. unless the U.S. allows it . Isreals problems and dealing with them are manyfold . Going back many centuries , even before they were established as a nation , I think their destiny is pre-determined . Surrounded by ignorance and enemies , occupying a piece of land that could very well be the area over/at which mankind could exterminate itself , and for what or why we must ask ? So they feel they are "chosen". I have heard preachers rail about abandoning them ( Isreal ) will surely be/mean the destruction of the United States and our ultimate downfall and we will be back-handed by God for being so unjust to " his chosen people " and abandoning them .

Well now . Don't we think mighty highly of ourselves as a nation ? That God himself , GOD HIMSELF , mind you gave the great U.S. the job of protecting , shepherding , guiding , and be responsible for their well being . Us ? The U.S.A. ? Just look at our politics , our leaders , our indistries , our values , our morals , our ethics , ( and for a lot of people all of the afore-mentioned are for sale ) and the actual state of our own nation .

Surely you jest !!! Personally , I think anyone who believes the USA was the chosen protector of Isreal owes GOD an apology for thinking GOD was that damn stupid to leave us in charge of Isreal and their affairs . Get real , follow the money ( oil , etc ) . Thats why we have been fed this bull-sh_it forever . As leaders and politicians try to get their names in the annals of history or on that one piece of sand in the great desert of time known as their generation .

I love the USA and wouldn't want to live in another country . Alot of people say this , but until you have lived in every other country and under their government rules with the different drawbacks AND perks , is this a fair statement . Based solely on the other countries I have visited , the USA is where I would choose to stay , maybe thats a more fair and accurate statement ???

I don't think you can call a 'Vegas bookie and make this bet but I think it is safe to say that both the USA and Isreal will one day either be relegated to the history books or at the bare minimum changed so much that our generation would not recognize either as where we are today . Great civilizations have passed on before , what will or would make us any different ? As a nation , in the span of time , we are still in our infancy , and it sadly a lot of times , shows . Rant over . Carry on gents .

Vulchor

Beautifully said Gmill.

Amos_Umwhat

Vulchor:

Beautifully said Gmill.

+1