Tobacco use verification - insurance rquirement

JDH

Our open enrollment is this month. This year we are required to sign a "tobacco use certification" form which states that "I certify that I have not used any tabocco product (including , but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, e-cigarettes, pipes, chewing tobacco, other oral tobacco products, or any product containing any nicotine) within the last two months, or have provided a signed notification from a physician indicating it is medically inadvisable to quit using tobacco or quitting would be unreasonablly difficult due to a medical condition." It goes on to require a written statement if you start using tobacco at any time after the certification is signed, you must disclose that fact, and advises that providing false information will be considered insurance fraud. Any use of tobacco products automatically results in higher premiums.

Interesting.

jgibv

Lame.

Amos_Umwhat

When I was a kid in the '60s we were told that our country was becoming more like Russia, and that if we weren't careful to make sure the corporations and government didn't get too much power, we would eventually be less free than the communists.
Looks like we're there, or at least too damn close for comfort.
We have lost the goal of freedom. We have exchanged it for the illusion of security. What you are seeing is the inevitable end result of the "war on drugs". The loss of freedom has been incremental. One step at a time. We were taught to hate a certain group, then allow our freedoms to be decimated in order to punish that group. Now the protections are gone, and
You're next!
soon, we'll all be obedient little cogs in the machine.

Gray4lines

I am sill undecided as to how to approach this when I get my own ins... lumping all those tobaccos together is so utterly senseless. To say an occasional cigar , even maybe one a day, is anything like constant pack a day cig use is stupid. It is patently false, yet no attempt is made to differentiate. The govt won't be happy until NO ONE smokes anything. (We have to save the children from deceitful flavored tobacco and deadly second hand smoke...) insurance companies are on the bandwagon too, just another excuse to charge you more when the additional risk is minuscule at most.

Russ55

I guess you've got a few decisions to make. What's the cost difference if you state that you're a "tobacco user"?

JDH

Russ55:

I guess you've got a few decisions to make. What's the cost difference if you state that you're a "tobacco user"?

The difference is the possibility of being charged with the crime of insurance fraud if they decide to conduct blood or piss tests for tobacco use, which is a very real possibility. So, I have no decision to make. I will not provide false information, and I will therefore have a higher deductible and more out of pocket cost than non-tobacco (as they define tobacco use). Period. Also, who in the blankety blank could come up with this: "... a signed notification from a physician indicating it is medically inadvisable to quit using tobacco or quitting would be unreasonablly difficult due to a medical condition...". ??????????

I was wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience.

I think Amos is right, too. The war on drugs is a war on the citizens, and has conditioned the majority to accept the abuse of a minority population by legal means. Where does it end, or does it end?

JDH

Gray4lines:

I am sill undecided as to how to approach this when I get my own ins... lumping all those tobaccos together is so utterly senseless. To say an occasional cigar , even maybe one a day, is anything like constant pack a day cig use is stupid. It is patently false, yet no attempt is made to differentiate. The govt won't be happy until NO ONE smokes anything. (We have to save the children from deceitful flavored tobacco and deadly second hand smoke...) insurance companies are on the bandwagon too, just another excuse to charge you more when the additional risk is minuscule at most.

True, true. Personally, I don't think the authority that came up with this gives a hoot about the "truth" (To say an occasional cigar , even maybe one a day, is anything like constant pack a day cig use is stupid.) It's all about money, and this is just one more way to motivate people to conform to their "ideal", which coincidentially, will supposedly cost them less money. Besides, cigar smokers are such a small minority, they're easy to push around.

Marker

Sounds like your insurance company has decided to step past the bounds of what is legal.

An insurance company cannot sign you up as a non smoker then say you can never ever start smoking, if you do you have to let them know. In MN, ND they can't ask ever again for medical information after they sign you up. Even then, after the policy is in force for 2 years anything stated on the application doesn't matter. That is the end of the preexisting conditions phase.

They are breaking the law by saying you must disclose to them if you ever start smoking. Where is the Skydiving, snorkling with sharks, driving, walking in lightning storm disclosures? You don't see them because legally they cannot enforce those. Same with starting smoking.

JDH

Marker:

Sounds like your insurance company has decided to step past the bounds of what is legal.

An insurance company cannot sign you up as a non smoker then say you can never ever start smoking, if you do you have to let them know. In MN, ND they can't ask ever again for medical information after they sign you up. Even then, after the policy is in force for 2 years anything stated on the application doesn't matter. That is the end of the preexisting conditions phase.

They are breaking the law by saying you must disclose to them if you ever start smoking. Where is the Skydiving, snorkling with sharks, driving, walking in lightning storm disclosures? You don't see them because legally they cannot enforce those. Same with starting smoking.

Now that is interesting. Can you send me some data? The law in KY seems to be whatever those in authority want to do, because it takes money to fight City Hall. I would like to see what the law in your state says in this regard. It may be moot here, but then again, it may not.

Rain

In the Army, we always half joke that in order to cut costs they're going to order us to stop smoking. Sorry to his this brother, makes me sad for the day when I have to pay for my own insurance.

JDH

Rain:

In the Army, we always half joke that in order to cut costs they're going to order us to stop smoking. Sorry to his this brother, makes me sad for the day when I have to pay for my own insurance.

If there is a positive side to this it's that the increased costs are not very high, but I expect that once they have established a "penalty" for "smoking", it won't be long before the cost is incrementally increased.

jgibv

Gray4lines:

The govt won't be happy until NO ONE smokes anything. ..... insurance companies are on the bandwagon too, just another excuse to charge you more when the additional risk is minuscule at most.

That is .... unless it's prescribed by a doctor, paid in part by insurance, and comes from a big pharma company.

IMHO - the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies don't like smoking (anything) because they don't see any of the $$ from it, hence higher insurance rates for smokers.
Since only the tobacco industry (and gov't) is able to get $ from smokers.

If GSK, Pfizer, etc. sold tobacco or marijuana products, they'd be pushing them just as much as they push anti-depressants, allergy meds, ****, etc.....
It's all about the $$$, and the industries' relationships with one another - just my $0.02.

Rain

JDH:

Rain:

In the Army, we always half joke that in order to cut costs they're going to order us to stop smoking. Sorry to his this brother, makes me sad for the day when I have to pay for my own insurance.

If there is a positive side to this it's that the increased costs are not very high, but I expect that once they have established a "penalty" for "smoking", it won't be long before the cost is incrementally increased.

Too bad you can't say No, then if/when they test you and you fail, you tell them "It's these dang smokers! All this second hand smoke I get.."

JDH

Rain:

JDH:

Rain:

In the Army, we always half joke that in order to cut costs they're going to order us to stop smoking. Sorry to his this brother, makes me sad for the day when I have to pay for my own insurance.

If there is a positive side to this it's that the increased costs are not very high, but I expect that once they have established a "penalty" for "smoking", it won't be long before the cost is incrementally increased.

Too bad you can't say No, then if/when they test you and you fail, you tell them "It's these dang smokers! All this second hand smoke I get.."

Nobody is allowed to smoke in or near any office or vehicle, so the second hand thing is out. I've already answered, and I didn't lie to get out of anything. I just think it's stupid to equate an occasional cigar usage to a pack-a-day cigarette smoker. It aint fair, neither.

JDH

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Rain

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

So if you drink alcohol, does your rate go up?

JDH

Rain:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

So if you drink alcohol, does your rate go up?

No. My guess is that they will begin here and then start a whole regimen of "behavioral modifications" to encourage you to be "healthier". Don't exercise enough? Higher premiums. Too much sugar? Higher premiums. Overweight? Higher premiums. Drink alchohol or suger drinks? Higher premiums. That's what I'm thinkin, anyway.

Toombes

Rain:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

So if you drink alcohol, does your rate go up?

Oliva "V" infused bourbon!! There ya go, JDH! You're off the hook.

jthanatos

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

JDH

Toombes:

Rain:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

So if you drink alcohol, does your rate go up?

Oliva "V" infused bourbon!! There ya go, JDH! You're off the hook.

Maybe I'll have to invent something like that, huh?

JDH

jthanatos:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

Gawd! There could be a whole new black market for freeze dried urine, of the purest sort only. I could be a Pristine Piss dealer.

Rain

JDH:

jthanatos:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

Gawd! There could be a whole new black market for freeze dried urine, of the purest sort only. I could be a Pristine Piss dealer.

Pre K students sell cheap. Or, uh, so I hear.

jthanatos

JDH:

jthanatos:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

Gawd! There could be a whole new black market for freeze dried urine, of the purest sort only. I could be a Pristine Piss dealer.

I went to school with a guy that sold not only the urine, but an entire tubing, pump, and fake dong setup in case you have to give a sample in front of a witness. He always had very nice things, so I am guessing there is good money in it...

JDH

jthanatos:

JDH:

jthanatos:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

Gawd! There could be a whole new black market for freeze dried urine, of the purest sort only. I could be a Pristine Piss dealer.

I went to school with a guy that sold not only the urine, but an entire tubing, pump, and fake dong setup in case you have to give a sample in front of a witness. He always had very nice things, so I am guessing there is good money in it...

Now that's a whole new kind of pissing contest, and this thread has turned into a real piss & moan session.

jthanatos

JDH:

jthanatos:

JDH:

jthanatos:

JDH:

Ah Ha! Here in the fine print:

"I certify that I, or any family members covered by any Health Insurance Plan offered, that are over 18 years of age, may be subjected to periodic nicotine urine testing during callendar year 2013."

Just carry freeze dried urine with you everywhere. You will be like a real pro athlete.

Gawd! There could be a whole new black market for freeze dried urine, of the purest sort only. I could be a Pristine Piss dealer.

I went to school with a guy that sold not only the urine, but an entire tubing, pump, and fake dong setup in case you have to give a sample in front of a witness. He always had very nice things, so I am guessing there is good money in it...

Now that's a whole new kind of pissing contest, and this thread has turned into a real piss & moan session.

My mother always said it is better to be pissed off than pissed on.

catfishbluezz

Where's lance when you need him...

phobicsquirrel

I wonder though, would a e cig or a cigar even show up in a "test"? I mean do you inhale enough nicotine from a cigar to even sound an alarm? I'm curious because this is something that may be more and more common. Also do they pay for your drug test? And do they usurp your job meaning it's a day off work? How can they enforce this? Now if your smoking a pack a day then sure, you'd fail a "random" test but a cigar?

JDH

phobicsquirrel:

I wonder though, would a e cig or a cigar even show up in a "test"? I mean do you inhale enough nicotine from a cigar to even sound an alarm? I'm curious because this is something that may be more and more common. Also do they pay for your drug test? And do they usurp your job meaning it's a day off work? How can they enforce this? Now if your smoking a pack a day then sure, you'd fail a "random" test but a cigar?

They pay for the test, no time off work. They can enforce this by ordering you to go get tested. If you question or refuse, it's insubordination, and insubordination can, and does, result in immediate dismissal.

That is a very good question if infrequent cigar use would even show up, but you can bet money they wouldn't include it in their requirements if they couldn't test for it.

phobicsquirrel

I don't see how they can enforce it. I mean let's say they want you to take a test, what are they going to do, call you, send a letter? I mean unless you have to sign for it there is no way for them to say you got it. Also say they mail it, there would have to be a time frame for you to do it, can't be like immediately. So if you are someone who smokes cigars a few times a week I have a hard time believing you would be failing any test. Then again I don't know how the test reads nicotine. I know weed stays in the system for up to 30 days and there's a specific test but I wasn't aware that there was a test for nicotine and if so never heard of anyone taking it.

jthanatos

JDH:

phobicsquirrel:

I wonder though, would a e cig or a cigar even show up in a "test"? I mean do you inhale enough nicotine from a cigar to even sound an alarm? I'm curious because this is something that may be more and more common. Also do they pay for your drug test? And do they usurp your job meaning it's a day off work? How can they enforce this? Now if your smoking a pack a day then sure, you'd fail a "random" test but a cigar?

They pay for the test, no time off work. They can enforce this by ordering you to go get tested. If you question or refuse, it's insubordination, and insubordination can, and does, result in immediate dismissal.

That is a very good question if infrequent cigar use would even show up, but you can bet money they wouldn't include it in their requirements if they couldn't test for it.

Personally, I would talk to both your provider and doctor, to see if there is an excemption for just such a case. I am listed as a nonsmoker on my life insurance after lengthy discussions as to how often I indulge, plus doing a baseline stress test with the doctor.

jthanatos

phobicsquirrel:

I don't see how they can enforce it. I mean let's say they want you to take a test, what are they going to do, call you, send a letter? I mean unless you have to sign for it there is no way for them to say you got it. Also say they mail it, there would have to be a time frame for you to do it, can't be like immediately.

If it is like my job, they just pull you in the office, and say... go to the clinic, piss in a cup, we already made you an appointment.