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Deadliest sniper in American history shot dead in the US

xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
Damn, don't even know what to say about this. It's a real shame to see a hero dead before his time
A man called the deadliest sniper in United States history was found dead Saturday.

Chris Kyle was one of two individuals reportedly shot and killed sometime after 3 p.m. at Rough Creek Lodge, according to the Stephenville Empire-Tribune.

Kyle, 38, a former Tarleton State University student and former Navy SEAL who served four tours of duty in Iraq, where he was given the nickname "The Devil of Ramadi" by insurgents.

In January 2012, Harper Collins released Kyle's best selling autobiography, "American Sniper,"

The man suspected of murdering Kyle and the second individual was apprehended near Lancaster hours after the incident, the Empire-Tribune reported.

Eddie Ray Routh was reportedly arrested just before 9 p.m., Erath County Sheriff Tommy Bryant said.

Sources close to the investigation said the assailant fled the scene in Kyle's vehicle, which bore the emblem of his business, Craft International, which provides military and law enforcement training.

Erath County Sheriff's investigators, Stephenville police and Texas Rangers responded to the scene and other agencies were on the lookout for the suspect vehicle. The pickup truck was described as a large black four-door truck, elevated high off of the ground. The suspect vehicle is described as completely covered in Rhino Liner with a skull sticker in the back window.

As the search for the suspect heated up, Bryant called the suspect armed and "extremely dangerous," although he declined to elaborate on the statement.

Rough Creek Lodge, an upscale hunting lodge, is located near the Somervell County line on U.S. Highway 67 between the cities of Glen Rose and Stephenville.

At the time of this report, the second victim had not been identified.

Kyle leaves behind a wife and two children.

The suspected homicide is the second in two days for Erath County investigators. At about 2:30 p.m. Friday, they responded to a residence off of Pigeon Road, where Jeffrey Vegas Sewalt, 59, was found dead from a gunshot wound to the head.

Bryant said investigators were treated that case as a murder investigation.

Additional details on the Rough Creek case will be provided as soon as they become available.
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Comments

  • I just saw this. No big news sites are reporting this so I hope it's not true.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Unfortunately, it looks legit: http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/lancaster-police-arrest-man-in-connection-with-double-slaying-in-erath-county.html/

    War hero who survived four tours of duty, shot dead by a 25 year old piece of ****. What a f*cking waste. Can't even describe all the things I hope they do to that little f*ck in prison
    Chris Kyle, a former Navy SEAL and author of the best-selling book American Sniper, and a second person were shot and killed Saturday at a gun range in Erath County, U.S. Marshals said.

    Late Saturday, Lancaster police arrested a man who they say matched the description of a man wanted in connection with the slayings. After a brief chase, officers arrested 25-year-old Eddie Ray Routh, according to Lancaster police spokesperson Kelly Hooten.

    Reporting on the shootings, the Stephenville Empire-Tribune said Erath County Sheriff Tommy Bryant would not discuss the victims. But the newspaper said that a source working at Rough Creek Lodge, which has a gun range at which the newspaper reported the slayings occurred, confirmed that one of the victims was Kyle.

    WFAA-TV (Channel 8) reported that Kyle was shot point-blank while helping another soldier who is recovering from post traumatic stress syndrome.

    Erath County officials had issued an alert for authorities to be on the lookout for the gunman, who was believed to be armed and dangerous and driving a black Ford F-350 truck with large tires and rims.

    The suspect was believed to be highly trained with military experience. The shooting location is 53 miles southwest of Fort Worth, according to WFAA.

    Kyle grew up in Texas and spent much of his time riding horses and participating on the school rodeo team. His life quickly changed when he decided to go into the military and became a Navy SEAL. He deployed four times to Iraq. Kyle held the record for number of kills by an American sniper. The Pentagon has confirmed more than 150 of his kills. The previous record was 109. For his service, Kyle was awarded two Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars with Valor. His autobiography, American Sniper, was released last year.

    “When I grew up, I only had two dreams,” he told The News in January 2012. “One was to be a cowboy and another was to be in the military. I grew up extremely patriotic and riding horses. I went to college and was working at a ranch up there. Sun up, sun down, I was in a saddle. By the time I was 24, I decided it was time to go into the military and try it out. It wasn’t exactly the SEALs I was looking for at the time. I just wanted to go into the military and be the best.”

    Kyle said he wrote his book because, “I wanted to be able to let people know about the sacrifices that not only people in the service make, but what their families go through. I knew this would give me a voice so I could speak about the guys I know who were killed. I wanted to get their story out and I wanted to raise awareness for veterans.”

    “It is so hard becoming a civilian. When you are in the military, everything you do is for the greater good. And as a civilian, everything you do is for your own good. When you’re in the military, you are facing life and death every day. And then you come home and hear people who are unhappy about the little things. And you think, are you kidding me? Two weeks ago, I was shot. And this is your problem. …They train us how to become warriors, but then they don’t teach us and train us how to become businessmen.”
  • kingjk729kingjk729 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭
    Very sad this happen to such a stand up guy like Chris.
  • jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    R.I.P. Chief.
  • RhamlinRhamlin Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This just reads like a conspiracy movie
  • KriegKrieg Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭
    This is very sad. I actually just got done reading his book about his tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. He made it through so much to be cut down at home....very sad. His book talks about his wife and kids too, kinda makes this story hit home a little for me.

    "Long ashes my friends."

  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper-author-reported-killed.html?_r=0

    According to the New York Times:

    "Mr. Kyle, author of the best selling book “American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,” was with a struggling former soldier on just such an outing on Saturday, hoping a day at a shooting range would bring some relief, said a friend, Travis ****.

    But Texas authorities said Sunday that for unknown reasons, the man turned on Mr. Kyle and a second man, Chad Littlefield, shooting and killing both before fleeing.

    “Chad and Chris had taken a veteran out to shoot to try to help him,” Mr. **** said. “And they were killed.”

    On Sunday, the police identified the shooter as Eddie Ray Routh, a 25-year-old veteran with a history of mental illness who had served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The police offered no information about a possible motive. "

  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    Isn't this the guy that allegedly punched Jessie Ventura? Maybe I've got the wrong guy...

    Edit: I had the right guy
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Ken Light:
    Isn't this the guy that allegedly punched Jessie Ventura? Maybe I've got the wrong guy...

    Edit: I had the right guy
    This is the guy that claimed Jessie Ventura punched him. Ventura sued, and denies he did it.

    OOPS, I got it wrong, you got it right.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    OOOPS! I got it wrong, you got it right. Having problems editing.......anyway, my bad.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    JDH:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper-author-reported-killed.html?_r=0

    According to the New York Times:

    "Mr. Kyle, author of the best selling book “American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,” was with a struggling former soldier on just such an outing on Saturday, hoping a day at a shooting range would bring some relief, said a friend, Travis ****.

    But Texas authorities said Sunday that for unknown reasons, the man turned on Mr. Kyle and a second man, Chad Littlefield, shooting and killing both before fleeing.

    “Chad and Chris had taken a veteran out to shoot to try to help him,” Mr. **** said. “And they were killed.”

    On Sunday, the police identified the shooter as Eddie Ray Routh, a 25-year-old veteran with a history of mental illness who had served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The police offered no information about a possible motive. "

    Not sure if the shooter is the guy he was with; all the reports say Chris Kyle was there with a PTSD patient, but this is the first I've heard that it was the PTSD guy shot shot him

    If true . . .just . . . damn. Only the good die young, it seems
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    xmacro:
    JDH:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper-author-reported-killed.html?_r=0

    According to the New York Times:

    "Mr. Kyle, author of the best selling book “American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,” was with a struggling former soldier on just such an outing on Saturday, hoping a day at a shooting range would bring some relief, said a friend, Travis ****.

    But Texas authorities said Sunday that for unknown reasons, the man turned on Mr. Kyle and a second man, Chad Littlefield, shooting and killing both before fleeing.

    “Chad and Chris had taken a veteran out to shoot to try to help him,” Mr. **** said. “And they were killed.”

    On Sunday, the police identified the shooter as Eddie Ray Routh, a 25-year-old veteran with a history of mental illness who had served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The police offered no information about a possible motive. "

    Not sure if the shooter is the guy he was with; all the reports say Chris Kyle was there with a PTSD patient, but this is the first I've heard that it was the PTSD guy shot shot him

    If true . . .just . . . damn. Only the good die young, it seems
    Unfortunately, it is true. Several other news agencies have confirmed and are reporting accordingly.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

  • jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    yes, he is a POS
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    I think we should also all agree that there is a need for serious and real treatment of mental illness and giving these sick people guns is not a good idea.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Vulchor:
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    I think we should also all agree that there is a need for serious and real treatment of mental illness and giving these sick people guns is not a good idea.
    That's what I was thinking. Treating PTSD at a firing range isn't a good idea. I wouldn't take a recovering alcoholic to a bar either.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭
    JDH:
    Vulchor:
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    I think we should also all agree that there is a need for serious and real treatment of mental illness and giving these sick people guns is not a good idea.
    That's what I was thinking. Treating PTSD at a firing range isn't a good idea. I wouldn't take a recovering alcoholic to a bar either.
    Exposure therapy is a recognized treatment method for PTSD. I cannot comment on whether Chris Kyles was qualified to be pursuing this avenue or not, but either way... saying a guy has it coming for trying to help... well, this seems relevant. Ron Paul needs to review the difference between 'speaking your mind and not letting people change you' and 'being a tactless jack@ss'.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    jthanatos:
    JDH:
    Vulchor:
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    I think we should also all agree that there is a need for serious and real treatment of mental illness and giving these sick people guns is not a good idea.
    That's what I was thinking. Treating PTSD at a firing range isn't a good idea. I wouldn't take a recovering alcoholic to a bar either.
    Exposure therapy is a recognized treatment method for PTSD. I cannot comment on whether Chris Kyles was qualified to be pursuing this avenue or not, but either way... saying a guy has it coming for trying to help... well, this seems relevant. Ron Paul needs to review the difference between 'speaking your mind and not letting people change you' and 'being a tactless jack@ss'.
    I thought tactless jack@ss was his official title. For the record, I don't think Mr. Kyles "had it comming", and I hope nobody thought that's what I ment. This is just one more in a long long long list of tragedies. I hate waste, especially of human life, and that's what this was.

    It seems that you have recovered from your brush with the flu.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    As I thought about this today, while Paul should STFU with regards to this topic----the more I do not think it was disrespectful per se I think it was Paul simply seeing the irony than a man who was a sniper died as the result of a gunshot.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    and decided to shoot his mouth off like a good politician? I think Horses *** is far more fitting because that was horse pucks coming out of his mouth.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭
    JDH:
    jthanatos:
    JDH:
    Vulchor:
    xmacro:
    Ron Paul just tweeted out his thoughts on this issue, essentially saying Chris Kyles had it coming:
    Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense
    Can we all agree this guy is a horse's ass?

    I think we should also all agree that there is a need for serious and real treatment of mental illness and giving these sick people guns is not a good idea.
    That's what I was thinking. Treating PTSD at a firing range isn't a good idea. I wouldn't take a recovering alcoholic to a bar either.
    Exposure therapy is a recognized treatment method for PTSD. I cannot comment on whether Chris Kyles was qualified to be pursuing this avenue or not, but either way... saying a guy has it coming for trying to help... well, this seems relevant. Ron Paul needs to review the difference between 'speaking your mind and not letting people change you' and 'being a tactless jack@ss'.
    I thought tactless jack@ss was his official title. For the record, I don't think Mr. Kyles "had it comming", and I hope nobody thought that's what I ment. This is just one more in a long long long list of tragedies. I hate waste, especially of human life, and that's what this was.

    It seems that you have recovered from your brush with the flu.
    Yeah, I live. Barely. Flu into Strep into crunchtime at work. I am so burned out right now, all I seem to do is work and sleep. Haven't even had a smoke OR a dram in almost a month.

    On topic, I was referencing Paul's comments seemed to indicate 'he had it coming'. It is victim blaming BS and not becoming of any man. Just tired of all this crap right now.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Vulchor:
    As I thought about this today, while Paul should STFU with regards to this topic----the more I do not think it was disrespectful per se I think it was Paul simply seeing the irony than a man who was a sniper died as the result of a gunshot.
    You could be right, but I think he was making a judgement call about the way he died.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭
    We all make mistakes and say things we shouldnt say, whether its before thinking or out of anger .. Doesnt excuse it. Unfortunately when a public figure says these things they are scrutinized with a magnifying glass that'll make a ticks ass look like a grapefruit. Other things more important for me to worry about than what some politician spews out of his mouth. RIP
  • raisindotraisindot Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭
    This whole thing as a terrible tragedy and the loss of a great soldier like Kyle and his friend (the person he was with, not his assailant) is a terrible loss to the nation and such a needless waste of human life. I don't think Kyle in any way should be villified for bringing his disturbed friend to the firing range. Maybe the guy was struggling with anger and Kyle felt that firing a weapon might help him blow off steam. Maybe Kyle had used shooting therapy successfully in the past with other soldiers. As a SEAL, Kyle must have had some measured assessment of this man's potential for murder and felt he wasn't at risk; it's the same mistake hundreds of wives, teachers, parents, social workers, psychologists and clerics make every day in failing to identify those at risk of hurting themselves or others.

    That said, given Kyle's nearly superhuman shooting skills, the fact that all three men were apparently on a shooting range, and that Kyle and his friend were trained elite soldiers and most likely carrying weapons during the entire time they were there, doesn't this tragedy poke holes into the NRA's argument that the best way to prevent shootings is to be armed at all times and that the best way to protect children in schools and other vulnerable locations is to put armed guards in these locations?

    If two highly elite and presumably armed former soldiers who were specially trained to anticipate danger weren't able to protect themselves against a mentally ill assailant, how could it be expected that armed security guards or cops, most of whom are probably not crack shots or have never faced life or death situations such as Kyle did during his military career, would be able to stand down a gun-firing assailant in such a situation--or that a shootout between the assailant and a nervous guard wouldn't potentially result in more deaths? Banning guns certainly isn't the answer to these problems, but neither is arming everyone to the teeth either.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭
    raisindot:
    This whole thing as a terrible tragedy and the loss of a great soldier like Kyle and his friend (the person he was with, not his assailant) is a terrible loss to the nation and such a needless waste of human life. I don't think Kyle in any way should be villified for bringing his disturbed friend to the firing range. Maybe the guy was struggling with anger and Kyle felt that firing a weapon might help him blow off steam. Maybe Kyle had used shooting therapy successfully in the past with other soldiers. As a SEAL, Kyle must have had some measured assessment of this man's potential for murder and felt he wasn't at risk; it's the same mistake hundreds of wives, teachers, parents, social workers, psychologists and clerics make every day in failing to identify those at risk of hurting themselves or others.

    That said, given Kyle's nearly superhuman shooting skills, the fact that all three men were apparently on a shooting range, and that Kyle and his friend were trained elite soldiers and most likely carrying weapons during the entire time they were there, doesn't this tragedy poke holes into the NRA's argument that the best way to prevent shootings is to be armed at all times and that the best way to protect children in schools and other vulnerable locations is to put armed guards in these locations?

    If two highly elite and presumably armed former soldiers who were specially trained to anticipate danger weren't able to protect themselves against a mentally ill assailant, how could it be expected that armed security guards or cops, most of whom are probably not crack shots or have never faced life or death situations such as Kyle did during his military career, would be able to stand down a gun-firing assailant in such a situation--or that a shootout between the assailant and a nervous guard wouldn't potentially result in more deaths? Banning guns certainly isn't the answer to these problems, but neither is arming everyone to the teeth either.
    Excellent point, although one might say a security gaurd more than likely wouldnt know or be friends with his or her assailant. It does bring up a eyebrow raising questions. How did this guy get the drop on two highly trained professional soldiers.. did he have a sidearm, did he use his rifle, was there a scuffle, I dont know any of these things. I would still say that the odds are in security gaurds favor and most of them wont have to face ex marines, service members, hopefully!!!! I know the healthcare for the battle weary vets who are facing crisis dealing with what they have seen and experienced, as well having to adjust back to a civillian life needs to improve dramatically.. Reminds me of the ending of movie Hurt Locker, Where the soldier is staring at all the boxes of cereal to choose from. He's lost, out of place.. Then it shows him back in action in the warzone and he's happy as he can relate and he feels secure.. War is Hell. Lets bring our boys home. (and girls), And give them all the help and assistance they need,, they deserve no less.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    raisindot:
    This whole thing as a terrible tragedy and the loss of a great soldier like Kyle and his friend (the person he was with, not his assailant) is a terrible loss to the nation and such a needless waste of human life. I don't think Kyle in any way should be villified for bringing his disturbed friend to the firing range. Maybe the guy was struggling with anger and Kyle felt that firing a weapon might help him blow off steam. Maybe Kyle had used shooting therapy successfully in the past with other soldiers. As a SEAL, Kyle must have had some measured assessment of this man's potential for murder and felt he wasn't at risk; it's the same mistake hundreds of wives, teachers, parents, social workers, psychologists and clerics make every day in failing to identify those at risk of hurting themselves or others.

    That said, given Kyle's nearly superhuman shooting skills, the fact that all three men were apparently on a shooting range, and that Kyle and his friend were trained elite soldiers and most likely carrying weapons during the entire time they were there, doesn't this tragedy poke holes into the NRA's argument that the best way to prevent shootings is to be armed at all times and that the best way to protect children in schools and other vulnerable locations is to put armed guards in these locations?

    If two highly elite and presumably armed former soldiers who were specially trained to anticipate danger weren't able to protect themselves against a mentally ill assailant, how could it be expected that armed security guards or cops, most of whom are probably not crack shots or have never faced life or death situations such as Kyle did during his military career, would be able to stand down a gun-firing assailant in such a situation--or that a shootout between the assailant and a nervous guard wouldn't potentially result in more deaths? Banning guns certainly isn't the answer to these problems, but neither is arming everyone to the teeth either.
    This tragedy completely refutes, and should put to rest, the NRA argument that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,869 ✭✭✭
    Dont understand how people can be so polarized on this subject.. If a criminal has a choice of robbing two convience stores one with an armed gaurd one without ,which one do you think the assailant will choose? Most criminals are not ex Marines!!!

    Saying,, "Whoa hey if a Navy Seal can be shot then whats the point of being armed" is a poor argumnet. As for those of us who have been there , a gun range is a whole nother story. Frankly I am surprised that the guy got away and wasnt shot dead. But like I said befor I wasnt there and I didnt see what happened.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭
    The Kid:
    Dont understand how people can be so polarized on this subject.. If a criminal has a choice of robbing two convience stores one with an armed gaurd one without ,which one do you think the assailant will choose? Most criminals are not ex Marines!!!

    Saying,, "Whoa hey if a Navy Seal can be shot then whats the point of being armed" is a poor argumnet. As for those of us who have been there , a gun range is a whole nother story. Frankly I am surprised that the guy got away and wasnt shot dead. But like I said befor I wasnt there and I didnt see what happened.
    Indeed, if the range rules are similar to any I have been to, unless you are actually on the firing line, your weapon is safed and unloaded. And if you are on the line, your safety gear and the like don't exactly add to your situational awareness. Hell, for all we know he could have been cleaning his weapon or there just to talk or used it as a meeting place and been completely unarmed. Arguing one incident proves or disproves an idea completely is silly. People have survived car crashes by being thrown free, does that disprove seatbelts save lives?
  • raisindotraisindot Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    Indeed, if the range rules are similar to any I have been to, unless you are actually on the firing line, your weapon is safed and unloaded. And if you are on the line, your safety gear and the like don't exactly add to your situational awareness. Hell, for all we know he could have been cleaning his weapon or there just to talk or used it as a meeting place and been completely unarmed. Arguing one incident proves or disproves an idea completely is silly. People have survived car crashes by being thrown free, does that disprove seatbelts save lives?
    I get that. Once incident doesn't conclusively derail an argument . Yet, this event and Ft. Hood anecdotally demonstrated that being in a place around men who are trained to use guns and who could be armed doesn't guarantee any kind of deterrence or protection against a mentally deranged assailant.

    On the other hand, there is absolutely no evidence--anecdotally or otherwise--at all to back up the NRA's claim that arming principals or security guards in schools will thwart would-be Newtownn style assailants, which is strongly advocated by the NRA and some politicians. The solution is not to army the bejesus out of everyone, but to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of these insane people to begin with. While there isn't a complete guarantee that this will work, requiring background checks for every single gun purchase in every venue that include mental health checks will probably stop at least some of these whackos without requiring any kind of ban at all on assault weapons or clips.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    raisindot:
    jthanatos:
    Indeed, if the range rules are similar to any I have been to, unless you are actually on the firing line, your weapon is safed and unloaded. And if you are on the line, your safety gear and the like don't exactly add to your situational awareness. Hell, for all we know he could have been cleaning his weapon or there just to talk or used it as a meeting place and been completely unarmed. Arguing one incident proves or disproves an idea completely is silly. People have survived car crashes by being thrown free, does that disprove seatbelts save lives?
    I get that. Once incident doesn't conclusively derail an argument . Yet, this event and Ft. Hood anecdotally demonstrated that being in a place around men who are trained to use guns and who could be armed doesn't guarantee any kind of deterrence or protection against a mentally deranged assailant.

    On the other hand, there is absolutely no evidence--anecdotally or otherwise--at all to back up the NRA's claim that arming principals or security guards in schools will thwart would-be Newtownn style assailants, which is strongly advocated by the NRA and some politicians. The solution is not to army the bejesus out of everyone, but to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of these insane people to begin with. While there isn't a complete guarantee that this will work, requiring background checks for every single gun purchase in every venue that include mental health checks will probably stop at least some of these whackos without requiring any kind of ban at all on assault weapons or clips.
    Our violent gun culture has to be changed. If it isn't, there won't be a civil society in the US. Indeed, in too many places in the US, civil society has been replaced by a wild west violent gun culture. Granted, we must do more to prevent the mentally ill from having access to guns, (which will be a formidable task in a country with as many firearms avaliable as we do), but we also must face the fact that the way we think about guns and the way we use them has to change if we want to have a decent, law-abiding civil society.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/07/us/lapd-attacks/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

    This is exactly what I'm talking about:

    "...(CNN) -- A former Los Angeles police officer who police say has violently threatened his former colleagues shot at least two officers early Thursday, killing one, sparking a huge manhunt in Southern California, according to authorities.

    Christopher Jordan Dorner, 33, is also wanted in a double slaying Sunday in Irvine, California.

    The California Highway Patrol issued an alert Thursday morning urging officers in several Southern California counties to be on the lookout for Dorner after the overnight shootings.

    Two officers in Riverside were shot, one fatally, police there confirmed to CNN. CNN affiliate KTLA reported another officer was shot in Corona, California.

    Irvine police identified Dorner on Wednesday as the suspect in the February 3 deaths of Keith Lawrence and Monica Quan in Irvine. ..."

    Stories like this are common-place these days. We are a violent gun culture, and it has to stop, we have to change.

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