we are trying to have an honest, serious debate, and laughing at the ideas concepts or people in it does nothing. you claim to not be involved in the debate but by posting and laughing at the concepts and people you show that you ARE involved in it.... but not in a productive way.
you have a right to do so, and i have a right to tell you that i feel a bit insulted by your lack of respect of the dialog that is happening here.
if you would like to continue to make mocking light of my simple request to keep it respectful, feel free. i cannot stop you. however it will also be increasingly difficult to respect you.
we are trying to have an honest, serious debate, and laughing at the ideas concepts or people in it does nothing. you claim to not be involved in the debate but by posting and laughing at the concepts and people you show that you ARE involved in it.... but not in a productive way.
you have a right to do so, and i have a right to tell you that i feel a bit insulted by your lack of respect of the dialog that is happening here.
if you would like to continue to make mocking light of my simple request to keep it respectful, feel free. i cannot stop you. however it will also be increasingly difficult to respect you.
Matt if you feel that simply laughing at a comment requires you to disrespect or have less respect for me or anyone else that does so though you know very little about the person involved I personally think you need to lighten up a bit as your obviously now just playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if you stated you find it hard to respect my opinion in this thread then OK....but to not respect me personally seems a little personal ( something you are always preaching against) I will not respond again to this thread so the last word is open for you my friend ...
But higher taxes and more government regulation is STILL always the answer from the left... Bush did have a hand in the mess so don't think that I will defend him to the end. He spent too much money! So did Clinton and so did Reagan. Yet in the 8 years Reagan was in officer, he spent about what Obama has spent in his first 8 months. Cuttting taxes AND government spending are what we need to be focusing on right now, not Cap and Tax or some Communist Healthcare bill.
kuzi16:
phobic, you keep saying that corporations are bad. could you develop this thought further for me please? what makes them bad? what makes government better? im just not seeing your point of view on this at all.
I would like to second this question because I have wondered the same thing. Why do you constantly attack corporations as some kind of evil empires out to take over the world?
Bump Bump... Just trying to get back on the topic at hand here.
[
Matt if you feel that simply laughing at a comment requires you to disrespect or have less respect for me or anyone else that does so though you know very little about the person involved I personally think you need to lighten up a bit as your obviously now just playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if you stated you find it hard to respect my opinion in this thread then OK...but to not respect me personally seems a little personal ( something you are always preaching against) I will not respond again to this thread so the last word is open for you my friend ...
one point of laughter or disrespect does not mean that i disrespect you. i was having a hard time with the wording of this post to not convey the wrong message.
its clear that i failed
i feel that the posts in question were not in the spirit of the conversation at hand. that spirit was a serious debate that was being based on facts and different ideas.
maybe i do need to lighten up, ill admit that. i was just hoping that a serious conversation would continue down that path.
the laughing at my post asking the conversation not to be laughed at kind of set me off a bit. it was, i feel, a bit disrespectful.
I do respect your opinions and you personally. the last line of my last post was intended to read as such:
if i feel that i am being mocked continually, or that you (or anyone else) continuously disrespects others in such debates, then respect will start to dwindle.
as an example, i do not agree with phobic on many issues, however, i respect the hell out of him for defending his beliefs.
i did not mean to come off as sounding like i have no respect for you, it was meant to inform that i dont want to lose respect for you.
are we just looking to hard at this and now beating a dead horse?
But higher taxes and more government regulation is STILL always the answer from the left... Bush did have a hand in the mess so don't think that I will defend him to the end. He spent too much money! So did Clinton and so did Reagan. Yet in the 8 years Reagan was in officer, he spent about what Obama has spent in his first 8 months. Cuttting taxes AND government spending are what we need to be focusing on right now, not Cap and Tax or some Communist Healthcare bill.
kuzi16:
phobic, you keep saying that corporations are bad. could you develop this thought further for me please? what makes them bad? what makes government better? im just not seeing your point of view on this at all.
I would like to second this question because I have wondered the same thing. Why do you constantly attack corporations as some kind of evil empires out to take over the world?
Bump Bump... Just trying to get back on the topic at hand here.
I never praised clinton, I never said that. I think he failed on a lot of things especially our trade, NAFTA was horrible. Obama spent more in 8 months, well given what he was handed and also putting on the books/budget what the two wars were costing then how could he have not? I mean wow, that statement is just ignorant. I do think that the stimulus could have put much more money into infrastructure, I mean China is spending billions every year on it. Obama should have made all projects being done by the stimulus a federal one, that way you wouldn't have this crap with individual states and all the more paperwork. It seemed to do well in the 30's 40's. We did get more back that what we gave a lot banks since they had larger interest rate than what we borrowed at, so that was good. Anyway, was a happy with all that has gone down, no, but what else could have been done. I do think that all the banks should have been left alone, they should have the same problems everyone else has. I think there are some serious issues with the federal reserve.
What is wrong with corporations? Well nothing, except when they continually take job and push them over seas, when they sell to other countries, and destroy our manufacturing. If all the jobs go to other countries, and we have no production then this country will no longer exist, but hey companies will still have money. I've posted several links about this, I'm not going to go and find them all again. It's hard to find specifics on numbers as I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. I'm trying to find a link where a senator ( think of the finance committee or health) has collected on all the money the insurance companies get off of people paying for their premiums and going out of network, but haven't found the whole report. I'm obviously not going to change your opinions on corporations, but if they take their jobs overseas for less money and production than why do they continue to push prices up? One would think that they would go down.... How would you like it if all the corporations in the country suddenly out-resourced? If the auto industry did that then hundred of thousands of people would be on the street. If all the restaurants in this country closed up and moved out of country only to ship their stuff via the web in microwave meals would that be good? Why are you guys so bent on saying corporations are good? Now I know that there are a lot of good business out there, and perhaps most but the real large ones, are undermining the American Worker. Not to mention all the money they throw out at lobbyists and reps.
Kuzi, if someone wants to laugh or snicker they can it doesn't bother me, I know that they just need to really look at the truth and maybe they'll see. I never use to care about politics, and in fact just got things off what my friends said or what ever network was on. Over the last few years I've been really listening and my best friend is really into politics and in fact is on a city council and will run for office soon.
I never praised clinton, I never said that. I think he failed on a lot of things especially our trade, NAFTA was horrible. Obama spent more in 8 months, well given what he was handed and also putting on the books/budget what the two wars were costing then how could he have not? I mean wow, that statement is just ignorant. I do think that the stimulus could have put much more money into infrastructure, I mean China is spending billions every year on it. Obama should have made all projects being done by the stimulus a federal one, that way you wouldn't have this crap with individual states and all the more paperwork. It seemed to do well in the 30's 40's. We did get more back that what we gave a lot banks since they had larger interest rate than what we borrowed at, so that was good. Anyway, was a happy with all that has gone down, no, but what else could have been done. I do think that all the banks should have been left alone, they should have the same problems everyone else has. I think there are some serious issues with the federal reserve.
What is wrong with corporations? Well nothing, except when they continually take job and push them over seas, when they sell to other countries, and destroy our manufacturing. If all the jobs go to other countries, and we have no production then this country will no longer exist, but hey companies will still have money. I've posted several links about this, I'm not going to go and find them all again. It's hard to find specifics on numbers as I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. I'm trying to find a link where a senator ( think of the finance committee or health) has collected on all the money the insurance companies get off of people paying for their premiums and going out of network, but haven't found the whole report. I'm obviously not going to change your opinions on corporations, but if they take their jobs overseas for less money and production than why do they continue to push prices up? One would think that they would go down.... How would you like it if all the corporations in the country suddenly out-resourced? If the auto industry did that then hundred of thousands of people would be on the street. If all the restaurants in this country closed up and moved out of country only to ship their stuff via the web in microwave meals would that be good? Why are you guys so bent on saying corporations are good? Now I know that there are a lot of good business out there, and perhaps most but the real large ones, are undermining the American Worker. Not to mention all the money they throw out at lobbyists and reps.
Kuzi, if someone wants to laugh or snicker they can it doesn't bother me, I know that they just need to really look at the truth and maybe they'll see. I never use to care about politics, and in fact just got things off what my friends said or what ever network was on. Over the last few years I've been really listening and my best friend is really into politics and in fact is on a city council and will run for office soon.
One of your lines in here hit the nail on the head! Corporations DO out-source and send jobs overseas! The reason for that is because we have one of the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATES IN THE WORLD... So yea, keep taxing them and sending more and more jobs out of our country... Keep supporting unions and the crap the force companies to pay out. If you make it profitable for a corporation to stay here then EVERYONE benefits.
I never praised clinton, I never said that. I think he failed on a lot of things especially our trade, NAFTA was horrible. Obama spent more in 8 months, well given what he was handed and also putting on the books/budget what the two wars were costing then how could he have not?
we have been through this before. The cost of the 8 YEARS of the wars at the time that i write this is a TRILLION dollars less than Obama spent in the last 8 months. this part of the argument does not stand up.
the other part of the argument is a logical fallacy. to be more exact it is a Subjectivist Fallacy. (1) Your argument concludes that p is objectively true.
(2) P is subjective.
Therefore:
(3) Your argument fails.
in this case P = he HAD to do it. when, in fact, he didnt have to do it. there are other options. they may be options that you dont agree with, but they were options.
phobicsquirrel:
I mean wow, that statement is just ignorant.
this is also a statement that is logical fallacy. It ignores the argument, focusing only on the arguer; it is therefore a fallacious argument ad hominem.
phobicsquirrel:
I do think that the stimulus could have put much more money into infrastructure, I mean China is spending billions every year on it. Obama should have made all projects being done by the stimulus a federal one, that way you wouldn't have this crap with individual states and all the more paperwork. It seemed to do well in the 30's 40's. We did get more back that what we gave a lot banks since they had larger interest rate than what we borrowed at, so that was good.
this was also the thinking of japan in the 90s with their lost decade from the article: "In hindsight, most analysts agree that if the Japanese government had simply gotten out of the way and let the bad banks and businesses fail, the country wouldn't have experienced the Lost Decade of the 1990s..."
however, we are currently making the same mistakes that were made by japan in the 90s.
the great depression was not much better. FDR's new deal according to UCLA economists prolonged the depression by 7 years. they "found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."
their work also "shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."
phobicsquirrel:
I do think that all the banks should have been left alone, they should have the same problems everyone else has. I think there are some serious issues with the federal reserve.
im on board with all that.
phobicsquirrel:
What is wrong with corporations? Well nothing, except when they continually take job and push them over seas, when they sell to other countries, and destroy our manufacturing. If all the jobs go to other countries, and we have no production then this country will no longer exist, but hey companies will still have money.
The U.S. has left the major features of its business tax system unchanged over the past fifteen years. Meanwhile, other countries have been changing theirs, potentially hurting the competitiveness of the United States. Perhaps most emblematic of the trend abroad is lower corporate tax rates in virtually all developed nations. As a result, the United States now has the second-highest statutory tax rate among OECD member nations.
so as we keep out corporate tax rates the same, other countries make it cheaper to do business. any savvy business man would pick up and move. a smaller version of this is happening in California now. California landed 49th in a business-tax friendliness ranking calculated this year by the Tax Foundation.
phobicsquirrel:
but if they take their jobs overseas for less money and production than why do they continue to push prices up?
more government intervention through Tarrifs and import taxes to "keep US companies competitive" since the cost of the tax is passed on to the consumer, the corporation does not not to incur the cost of it, thus still making it cheaper export jobs.
phobicsquirrel:
How would you like it if all the corporations in the country suddenly out-resourced?
i would hate it. thats why we need to make it more friendly and cheaper to do business in the US by lowering the US corporate tax rate.
phobicsquirrel:
If all the restaurants in this country closed up and moved out of country only to ship their stuff via the web in microwave meals would that be good?
this argument is just a bit out there. a restaurant has such a different demand than a manufactured good. this is a weak analogy.
phobicsquirrel:
Why are you guys so bent on saying corporations are good?
im not saying they are good. i am saying they are not evil. They employ millions and millions of people nation wide and produce products that millions use on a daily basis at a cost that is reasonable. there is nothing evil about that. there are specific people within corporations that may do evil things and in turn violate the rights of some of the people that they do business with, but that does not mean that all corporations are evil. those people should be punished. the concept of a corporation shouldnt be punished.
who the *** is Joe Biden to say how much money a person can make? Is he a king (or in this case a vice-king)? is he an all powerful ruler? a god maybe?
its funny that the article goes on to say: But the bigger problem is that Biden said "average CEOs." The Economic Policy Institute report talks about "top" CEOs, the ones from the biggest U.S. firms. Average CEOs make much less.
and:
We rate Biden's statement Half True.
it is not the governments job to regulate the wage of anyone. the only limitation on pay of people should be the limits they put on themselves. (again this comes with the stipulation that this money is earned in a legal way, that does not violate the rights of others.)
Look at the numbers of jobs created by Corporations in this country and tell me honestly why you would want to punish them more. I am not trying to make fun of your beliefs or belittle you in any way, I honestly just don't understand why you would want to put more taxes and restrictions on any corporation that is providing jobs to people in our country that honestly need them. Why not make it more profitable for them to stay here and try to keep those jobs from going overseas to begin with? Here are some numbers for you
How many U.S. jobs are created by the Apple iPod?
"The answer: 13,920, including engineering and retail. But there are 27,250 iPod-related jobs created outside the U.S."
Why wouldn't you want to give tax breaks to this company for keeping some of those 27,250 jobs here in the U.S. so they could put more money back into our own economy? What other options do you see to keep those jobs here instead of overseas?
Look at the numbers of jobs created by Corporations in this country and tell me honestly why you would want to punish them more. I am not trying to make fun of your beliefs or belittle you in any way, I honestly just don't understand why you would want to put more taxes and restrictions on any corporation that is providing jobs to people in our country that honestly need them. Why not make it more profitable for them to stay here and try to keep those jobs from going overseas to begin with? Here are some numbers for you
How many U.S. jobs are created by the Apple iPod?
"The answer: 13,920, including engineering and retail. But there are 27,250 iPod-related jobs created outside the U.S."
Why wouldn't you want to give tax breaks to this company for keeping some of those 27,250 jobs here in the U.S. so they could put more money back into our own economy? What other options do you see to keep those jobs here instead of overseas?
Apple is currently looking at the possibility of a one billion dollar plant in Catawba Co. which is the county 5 minutes from me drive time. That plant and the associated business'es to support it would be a much needed booster shot for the local area/economy I'm in. I hope all goes well and the local politicians are able to make this workout as there is much excitment being generated about the possibility ...
Comments
HeeHee ...
we are trying to have an honest, serious debate, and laughing at the ideas concepts or people in it does nothing.
you claim to not be involved in the debate but by posting and laughing at the concepts and people you show that you ARE involved in it.... but not in a productive way.
you have a right to do so, and i have a right to tell you that i feel a bit insulted by your lack of respect of the dialog that is happening here.
if you would like to continue to make mocking light of my simple request to keep it respectful, feel free. i cannot stop you. however it will also be increasingly difficult to respect you.
Matt if you feel that simply laughing at a comment requires you to disrespect or have less respect for me or anyone else that does so though you know very little about the person involved I personally think you need to lighten up a bit as your obviously now just playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe if you stated you find it hard to respect my opinion in this thread then OK....but to not respect me personally seems a little personal ( something you are always preaching against) I will not respond again to this thread so the last word is open for you my friend ...
its clear that i failed
i feel that the posts in question were not in the spirit of the conversation at hand. that spirit was a serious debate that was being based on facts and different ideas.
maybe i do need to lighten up, ill admit that. i was just hoping that a serious conversation would continue down that path.
the laughing at my post asking the conversation not to be laughed at kind of set me off a bit. it was, i feel, a bit disrespectful.
I do respect your opinions and you personally. the last line of my last post was intended to read as such:
if i feel that i am being mocked continually, or that you (or anyone else) continuously disrespects others in such debates, then respect will start to dwindle.
as an example, i do not agree with phobic on many issues, however, i respect the hell out of him for defending his beliefs.
i did not mean to come off as sounding like i have no respect for you, it was meant to inform that i dont want to lose respect for you.
are we just looking to hard at this and now beating a dead horse?
What is wrong with corporations? Well nothing, except when they continually take job and push them over seas, when they sell to other countries, and destroy our manufacturing. If all the jobs go to other countries, and we have no production then this country will no longer exist, but hey companies will still have money. I've posted several links about this, I'm not going to go and find them all again. It's hard to find specifics on numbers as I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. I'm trying to find a link where a senator ( think of the finance committee or health) has collected on all the money the insurance companies get off of people paying for their premiums and going out of network, but haven't found the whole report. I'm obviously not going to change your opinions on corporations, but if they take their jobs overseas for less money and production than why do they continue to push prices up? One would think that they would go down.... How would you like it if all the corporations in the country suddenly out-resourced? If the auto industry did that then hundred of thousands of people would be on the street. If all the restaurants in this country closed up and moved out of country only to ship their stuff via the web in microwave meals would that be good? Why are you guys so bent on saying corporations are good? Now I know that there are a lot of good business out there, and perhaps most but the real large ones, are undermining the American Worker. Not to mention all the money they throw out at lobbyists and reps.
Kuzi, if someone wants to laugh or snicker they can it doesn't bother me, I know that they just need to really look at the truth and maybe they'll see. I never use to care about politics, and in fact just got things off what my friends said or what ever network was on. Over the last few years I've been really listening and my best friend is really into politics and in fact is on a city council and will run for office soon.
Here's something that is interesting, ceo's making too much money....
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/06/joe-biden/biden-points-out-disparities-between-ceo-and-avera/
There was a report that listed the names of the companies and to what ratio or percentage they make to their lowest paid worker. it also had a date to date breakdown.
more...
http://www.ips-dc.org/articles/ips_on_the_ceo_pay_caps
http://labor.net.au/news/2769.html
the other part of the argument is a logical fallacy. to be more exact it is a Subjectivist Fallacy.
(1) Your argument concludes that p is objectively true.
(2) P is subjective.
Therefore:
(3) Your argument fails.
in this case P = he HAD to do it.
when, in fact, he didnt have to do it. there are other options. they may be options that you dont agree with, but they were options.
this is also a statement that is logical fallacy. It ignores the argument, focusing only on the arguer; it is therefore a fallacious argument ad hominem. this was also the thinking of japan in the 90s with their lost decade
from the article:
"In hindsight, most analysts agree that if the Japanese government had simply gotten out of the way and let the bad banks and businesses fail, the country wouldn't have experienced the Lost Decade of the 1990s..."
however, we are currently making the same mistakes that were made by japan in the 90s.
the great depression was not much better. FDR's new deal according to UCLA economists prolonged the depression by 7 years. they "found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."
their work also "shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."
im on board with all that.
The tax Foundation has this to say:
The U.S. has left the major features of its business tax system unchanged over the past fifteen years. Meanwhile, other countries have been changing theirs, potentially hurting the competitiveness of the United States. Perhaps most emblematic of the trend abroad is lower corporate tax rates in virtually all developed nations. As a result, the United States now has the second-highest statutory tax rate among OECD member nations.
so as we keep out corporate tax rates the same, other countries make it cheaper to do business. any savvy business man would pick up and move. a smaller version of this is happening in California now. California landed 49th in a business-tax friendliness ranking calculated this year by the Tax Foundation. more government intervention through Tarrifs and import taxes to "keep US companies competitive"
since the cost of the tax is passed on to the consumer, the corporation does not not to incur the cost of it, thus still making it cheaper export jobs. i would hate it. thats why we need to make it more friendly and cheaper to do business in the US by lowering the US corporate tax rate. this argument is just a bit out there. a restaurant has such a different demand than a manufactured good. this is a weak analogy. im not saying they are good. i am saying they are not evil. They employ millions and millions of people nation wide and produce products that millions use on a daily basis at a cost that is reasonable. there is nothing evil about that. there are specific people within corporations that may do evil things and in turn violate the rights of some of the people that they do business with, but that does not mean that all corporations are evil. those people should be punished. the concept of a corporation shouldnt be punished.
its funny that the article goes on to say:
But the bigger problem is that Biden said "average CEOs." The Economic Policy Institute report talks about "top" CEOs, the ones from the biggest U.S. firms. Average CEOs make much less.
and:
We rate Biden's statement Half True.
it is not the governments job to regulate the wage of anyone. the only limitation on pay of people should be the limits they put on themselves. (again this comes with the stipulation that this money is earned in a legal way, that does not violate the rights of others.)
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/12/how_many_us_job.html?campaign_id=rss_blog_economicsunbound
How many U.S. jobs are created by the Apple iPod?
"The answer: 13,920, including engineering and retail. But there are 27,250 iPod-related jobs created outside the U.S."
Why wouldn't you want to give tax breaks to this company for keeping some of those 27,250 jobs here in the U.S. so they could put more money back into our own economy? What other options do you see to keep those jobs here instead of overseas?
Apple is currently looking at the possibility of a one billion dollar plant in Catawba Co. which is the county 5 minutes from me drive time. That plant and the associated business'es to support it would be a much needed booster shot for the local area/economy I'm in. I hope all goes well and the local politicians are able to make this workout as there is much excitment being generated about the possibility ...