Central American Political Situation

Alex_SvensonAlex_Svenson Posts: 1,224Moderator admin
Someone asked about this on another thread and my response was so long, I needed to start a new thread.

Good question about the political situation down there. Frankly it sucks big time. The boarder where Zelaya is camped out is between Danli and Esteli. Most large cigar makers have factories in both places such as Plasencia, Torano, CAO, Oliva, and others. Many of these companies store materials in both places and have shipments going back and forth every week by truck. Now that the boarder is closed, there is no way to get materials. Since each factory may have only a months inventory of tobacco for a certain project in esteli but they warehouse 3 years worth of materials in Danli and bring it in as needed, it is going to screw up production. It has not happened yet, but it will happen in a few weeks for many suppliers. Also, many people buy their materials from tobacco brokers in Honduras and have it delivered to esteli. Not a good situation at all. I travel that road and cross the boarder there all the time. Before the boarder closure, crime shot up big time the last 12 months in Honduras with robberies, kidnappings etc. Now that the boarder is closed I have just decided not not to visit Honduras at all until things improve. It does not effect my job as a buyer really since I can visit the same companies in Esteli that have factories in Danli.

What absolutely blows my mind is how the rest of the world is backing Zelaya. This guy is a Chavez puppet and is heavily influenced by corruption. What the wonderful media here in the US is not telling you is the way thing really went down.

1. Zelayas term ends early 2010, new elections are being held this November
2. Zelaya, wanting to extend his term (which is not allowable by the constitution) decides he wants to stay. Only way he can do it is by Constitutional ammendment which requires an act of congress.
3. Zelaya asks congress to vote on it and consider the measure
4. Legislature declines and refuses to allow him to stay in office stating they will not ammend the constitution which allows for one term only. You see this type of *** happens all the time in latin america and it is exactly how democracy crumbles so the legislature did the right thing here.
5. In defiance of the legislature, Zelaya gets together with his friend Chavez. Chavez funds and prints millions of paper ballots which Zelaya then distributes directly to the people.
6. The judiciary branch of the government advises Zelaya that this is not constitutional and tells him to stop and that the outcome of the vote will not be legitimate.
7. Zelaya rallies supporters for his cause
8. Legislature asks supreme court to issue arrest warrant for Zelaya.
9. There is no measure in their constitution to try an acting president. Only option is to expel him from Honduras.
10. The military arrests Zelaya and put him on a plane.
11. The new government follows line of succession as outlined by their constitution and the head of the legislature takes over as president. In fact, the acting president is from Zelayas own party

The international community is outraged and will not recognize new leadership. They insist Zelaya be reinstated. In an effort to please the UN and other critics, Honduras has made several reasonable offers including bumping up their november elections etc.

I for one applaud Honduras and what they did. As far as I can tell, they acted in defense of Democracy, not against it. Zelaya was making a power play and they kicked his ass out and then followed the line of succession as stated in their constitution. I understand the dangers of military coups and setting a precedent, but this was about as much a coup in my opinion as us impeaching and removing a president from office in the US. Honduras has invited Zalaya back so long as he stands trial. How is that the US is taking the side of Chavez and not supporting Honduras? I just dont get it.

Some of the large speculation revolves around the untaped oil off the east coast of honduras and Nicaragua. Some of the conspiracy theorists think that Zelaya was a friend of the oil companies and that they are the ones pulling all the strings around the world to get him reinstated. I dont know about that. I am just pissed that we cant support the Hondurans. Instead we take away their aid which they need to feed their people and in effect are punishing the masses that cant afford to eat. I dont know, maybe someone can explain it to me.
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Comments

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Alex Svenson:
    How is that the US is taking the side of Chavez and not supporting Honduras? I just dont get it....

    ...I am just pissed that we cant support the Hondurans. Instead we take away their aid which they need to feed their people and in effect are punishing the masses that cant afford to eat. I dont know, maybe someone can explain it to me.
    easy

    OBAMA
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    kuzi16:
    Alex Svenson:
    How is that the US is taking the side of Chavez and not supporting Honduras? I just dont get it....

    ...I am just pissed that we cant support the Hondurans. Instead we take away their aid which they need to feed their people and in effect are punishing the masses that cant afford to eat. I dont know, maybe someone can explain it to me.
    easy

    OBAMA
    I'll second that and add one other thing...

    Hillary
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    Perhaps we could send a contingent of Bill O', Hannity, and Rush to the area to both mediate between the factions and act as a defacto peace keeping force?
  • FourtotheflushFourtotheflush Posts: 2,555
    Vulchor:
    Perhaps we could send a contingent of Bill O', Hannity, and Rush to the area to both mediate between the factions and act as a defacto peace keeping force?
    None of those guys have the nuggets to get into the fray!
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Fourtotheflush:
    Vulchor:
    Perhaps we could send a contingent of Bill O', Hannity, and Rush to the area to both mediate between the factions and act as a defacto peace keeping force?
    None of those guys have the nuggets to get into the fray!
    nor is it their job or interest.

  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Ok, what did the group of people you mentioned have to do at all with the topic at hand? Honestly that was a poor attempt at a cheap shot that had absolutely nothing to do with what was mentioned.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    PuroFreak:
    Ok, what did the group of people you mentioned have to do at all with the topic at hand? Honestly that was a poor attempt at a cheap shot that had absolutely nothing to do with what was mentioned.
    Please....lets not ramble.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Vulchor:
    PuroFreak:
    Ok, what did the group of people you mentioned have to do at all with the topic at hand? Honestly that was a poor attempt at a cheap shot that had absolutely nothing to do with what was mentioned.
    Please....lets not ramble.
    You accuse me of rambling when you start attacking people that have nothing to do with the situation?

    You know, your constant personal attacks and rantings that have nothing to do with the topic at hand have made me lose all respect for you and your opinions. Phobic, Duty, and Urbi, when the latter two still posted here, at least kept to the facts and didn't get personal. You honestly have no respect for anyone so I in turn can not respect you or your views.
  • KriegKrieg Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭
    Obama doesn't even adbide by our own Constitution, what makes you think that he would actually support another country who wants to keep thier Democracy and try to save thier Constitution?
  • Bad AndyBad Andy Posts: 848
    PuroFreak:
    Vulchor:
    PuroFreak:
    Ok, what did the group of people you mentioned have to do at all with the topic at hand? Honestly that was a poor attempt at a cheap shot that had absolutely nothing to do with what was mentioned.
    Please....lets not ramble.
    You accuse me of rambling when you start attacking people that have nothing to do with the situation?

    You know, your constant personal attacks and rantings that have nothing to do with the topic at hand have made me lose all respect for you and your opinions. Phobic, Duty, and Urbi, when the latter two still posted here, at least kept to the facts and didn't get personal. You honestly have no respect for anyone so I in turn can not respect you or your views.
    WOW!
    Its a normal tactic of the left...they don't have facts so they try to insult your intelligence...to 'discredit' you. 'I don't know the answer so instead of playing dumb, I will make it look like you are dumb'...like...'I don't know all the details but the police acted stupidly'. Its disrespectful not only to you but to everyone else that is listening/reading. However, some are dumb enough to believe it.
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    Alex, it was I that asked the question and I appreciate your response and explanations. Do you know if the cigar companies mentioned are making alternate plans to not have to curb production? Thanks Gene
  • bigharpoonbigharpoon Posts: 2,963 ✭✭✭
    gmill880:
    Alex, it was I that asked the question and I appreciate your response and explanations. Do you know if the cigar companies mentioned are making alternate plans to not have to curb production? Thanks Gene
    If the companies can't get to their stock pile of inventory that could really hurt everyone. Their sales, our prices and availability, etc. There must be a lot of family and friends that are now cut off from each other, too. What a tough situation.
  • LasabarLasabar Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭
    I think the biggest heartbreaking tale is the personal stake in this issue that I (Don't) have...

    My first gut reaction was for my own personal attention (i.e. what about prices? availability? New brands???)

    Yet then I took a step back and realized that if I never smoke again but it would save the life or family of one person over there... It would be worth it

    Now you guys know me as the goofy AHole, and I have never once posted anything serious in "PurosRants" or any other big political matter thread...

    But I'm disgusted with myself at how something thousands of miles away is going so bad so quickly, and my only reaction at first was that it has nothing to do with me, and those damn military **** better not *** up my cigar consumption...

    ugh... I need a drink...
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Bad Andy:
    PuroFreak:
    Vulchor:
    PuroFreak:
    Ok, what did the group of people you mentioned have to do at all with the topic at hand? Honestly that was a poor attempt at a cheap shot that had absolutely nothing to do with what was mentioned.
    Please....lets not ramble.
    You accuse me of rambling when you start attacking people that have nothing to do with the situation?

    You know, your constant personal attacks and rantings that have nothing to do with the topic at hand have made me lose all respect for you and your opinions. Phobic, Duty, and Urbi, when the latter two still posted here, at least kept to the facts and didn't get personal. You honestly have no respect for anyone so I in turn can not respect you or your views.
    WOW!
    Its a normal tactic of the left...they don't have facts so they try to insult your intelligence...to 'discredit' you. 'I don't know the answer so instead of playing dumb, I will make it look like you are dumb'...like...'I don't know all the details but the police acted stupidly'. Its disrespectful not only to you but to everyone else that is listening/reading. However, some are dumb enough to believe it.
    It ignores the argument, focusing only on the arguer; it is therefore a fallacious argument ad hominem.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    LOL...."Attacked from the left, personal attacks, stupidity, invalid arguements"...all statements that could also be said were used against me, but I guess I can just take a little gentle ribbing with a little more stide and not have my self pride damaged. in the process. Funny too, considering I am a republican who has donated over the last 8 yrs on 3 occasions to Repubs (McCain and Charlie Crist to be exact). However I am not so party conscious or mentally inept to change my views on a certain current people in power when they are doing a job at about a 3rd grade level.btw, The FACT is that Hilary and Obama are not direclty responsible for the siutation there, that is simply the view you hold---so dont accuse me of not using facts when your very statement was an opinion. And half the FACTS used in your info are from "studies" funded by a who's who of orginizations mean to make s tudy to show their way. Also, plenty of opinion in there....that is a FACT.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Vulchor:
    LOL...."Attacked from the left, personal attacks, stupidity, invalid arguements"...all statements that could also be said were used against me, but I guess I can just take a little gentle ribbing with a little more stide and not have my self pride damaged. in the process. Funny too, considering I am a republican who has donated over the last 8 yrs on 3 occasions to Repubs (McCain and Charlie Crist to be exact). However I am not so party conscious or mentally inept to change my views on a certain current people in power when they are doing a job at about a 3rd grade level.btw, The FACT is that Hilary and Obama are not direclty responsible for the siutation there, that is simply the view you hold---so dont accuse me of not using facts when your very statement was an opinion. And half the FACTS used in your info are from "studies" funded by a who's who of orginizations mean to make s tudy to show their way. Also, plenty of opinion in there....that is a FACT.
    Actually if you had read the posts, they weren't blaming Obama OR Hillary for the situation in Honduras. That would be a ridiculous claim. The criticism of the administration was because of their support for an ousted leader who was trying to become the next Hugo Chavez. Take a look again. We never blamed anyone for the situation in their country, just criticised our governments stance on the situation.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    LOL...."Attacked from the left, personal attacks, stupidity, invalid arguements"...all statements that could also be said were used against me,
    no sir. i have never once attacked you. i would never do such a thing. i enjoy political debate and respect your opinion even if your argument methods are not ones that i would chose.
    Vulchor:
    Funny too, considering I am a republican who has donated over the last 8 yrs on 3 occasions
    party matters not. and for the record, i am not a republican. please remember that. nobody else seems to.
    Vulchor:
    The FACT is that Hilary and Obama are not direclty responsible for the siutation there, that is simply the view you hold---so dont accuse me of not using facts when your very statement was an opinion.
    i never claimed that they caused the conflict in Honduras. I claimed that they supported the wannabe dictator who is trying to circumvent the Honduran constitution to get more power. this line of thinking (that the government can do what they want when they want regardless of the constitution) seems to be a common theme in the current administration (as well in past administrations, but at this moment the Obama administration is in office, so that is where the focus for me is.)
    Vulchor:
    And half the FACTS used in your info are from "studies" funded by a who's who of orginizations mean to make s tudy to show their way.
    there are no studies referenced in this thread at all. i am unsure of the point of this line.
  • Alex_SvensonAlex_Svenson Posts: 1,224Moderator admin
    I am confident the cigar makers will be fine. Cigars are 20% of GDP for both countries so neither Honduras nor Nicaragua will stop the cigar trade. Still it makes ddoing business tough.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    Hey Kuzi,To be honest I dont think any of what I said that you repsonded to was addressed at you. It was either toward Puro or a general idea. But you did pick me apart...lol. Have a good weekend everyone, no hard feelings toward anyone I hope.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Hey Kuzi,To be honest I dont think any of what I said that you repsonded to was addressed at you. It was either toward Puro or a general idea. But you did pick me apart...lol. Have a good weekend everyone, no hard feelings toward anyone I hope.
    its all good.

    like i said, i enjoy a political debate. i cant resist.

    i never leave political discussion with ill feelings to the arguer. debate and disagreement is good.

    to quote Michael John McCrae:
    Michael John McCrae:
    I would remind everyone of something Hillary Clinton said: “I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic, and we should stand up and say, “WE ARE AMERICANS AND WE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEBATE AND DISAGREE WITH ANY ADMINISTRATION!”

    Of course Hillary was speaking of democratic disagreements with the Bush Administration, but I do not disagree with Hillary’s assessment that disagreement, in line with the constitutional right of free speech is not un-patriotic. In many cases it is a duty to point out the flaws in certain political positions and policies and long as the disagreements are based in true and properly debatable information.
    this is how i try to look at debate and disagreement in any administrations policy. It is 100% patriotic to question your president, congress, senate, governor, or any other elected official that proposes a policy.

    i tend to always argue on the side of individual rights at all costs. I am very much a libertarian.
  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,004
    Very sneaky...I quit reading Puro's Rants thread as to maintain my sanity and now you guys are sneaking it into general discussion. Have you no decency?!?
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Luko:
    Have you no decency?!?
    none
  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,004
    kuzi16:
    Luko:
    Have you no decency?!?
    none
    oh, we knew that. But there was a rumor going around Puro was still a decent guy...this quashes that.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Luko:
    kuzi16:
    Luko:
    Have you no decency?!?
    none
    oh, we knew that. But there was a rumor going around Puro was still a decent guy...this quashes that.
    Who was going around spreading that kinda crap about me??? If I get my hands on em I swear I'll... Grrr... %&*@#!
  • TumblerTumbler Posts: 338
    I had heard of the explusion of Zelaya and knew that he was a compatriot of Chavez but didn't know the specifics. Obama supports Zelaya, ostensibly because he was elected and we know the religion of America is Democracy.

    I think whenever a leader of a country is removed, others rally to him because they belong to the same union! The US must think it could "do business" with Zelaya easier than his successor. Or, they are all a bunch of morons and don't know why they support him.

    Thanks for the insight Alex!
  • j0z3rj0z3r Posts: 9,403
    Alex Svenson:
    I am confident the cigar makers will be fine. Cigars are 20% of GDP for both countries so neither Honduras nor Nicaragua will stop the cigar trade. Still it makes ddoing business tough.
    They'll just have to hire some mercenaries. :)
  • clearlysuspectclearlysuspect Jacksonville, FloridaPosts: 2,124 ✭✭✭✭
    You know I hear Washington, DC is talking about cutting off the cigar trade border with Pennsylvania. :-)
  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,004
    clearlysuspect:
    You know I hear Washington, DC is talking about cutting off the cigar trade border with Pennsylvania. :-)
    Damn rebels...we had to whoop y'all once and we'll do it again.
  • LasabarLasabar Posts: 4,473 ✭✭✭
    clearlysuspect:
    You know I hear Washington, DC is talking about cutting off the cigar trade border with Pennsylvania. :-)
    Ya know... that is on the verge of almost not even funny.............
  • clearlysuspectclearlysuspect Jacksonville, FloridaPosts: 2,124 ✭✭✭✭
    Lasabar:
    clearlysuspect:
    You know I hear Washington, DC is talking about cutting off the cigar trade border with Pennsylvania. :-)
    Ya know... that is on the verge of almost not even funny.............
    I'm glad someone else other than me sees it that way.
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