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Egypt

beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
Volatile situation there. And our administration isn't looking good.

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    RBeckomRBeckom Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭
    A storm is definitely brewing there. I wonder where it will strike next?
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    pilgrimtexpilgrimtex Posts: 429
    Let the blood letting begin.
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    webmostwebmost Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now that the Muslim Brotherhood is out ... I wonder ... can we get our money back?
    “It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)


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    beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Arab Fall?
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    phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    Some things one should just stay out of. Seems to me that democracy is a oxy moron. I mean since it is working out so well in this country we seem to want to spread the wisdom all over the place. I mean sure a democracy would work in theory if the people in the damn thing had half a brain on what it is that is going on. Another one that I think works good in theory is communism, though that again failed since people F that up as well. Then we have good 'ol authoritarian! Now that's where it is at, I mean dumb people in droves just taking it up the bum, while their leaders screw them over left and right... oh wait that is this country. Moving on, let's say that nothing but dictators really do the job. Worked for Iraq, until we screwed that one, now another one - IRAN is the big dawg. Never ends.
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    pilgrimtexpilgrimtex Posts: 429
    phobicsquirrel:
    Some things one should just stay out of. Seems to me that democracy is a oxy moron. I mean since it is working out so well in this country we seem to want to spread the wisdom all over the place. I mean sure a democracy would work in theory if the people in the damn thing had half a brain on what it is that is going on. Another one that I think works good in theory is communism, though that again failed since people F that up as well. Then we have good 'ol authoritarian! Now that's where it is at, I mean dumb people in droves just taking it up the bum, while their leaders screw them over left and right... oh wait that is this country. Moving on, let's say that nothing but dictators really do the job. Worked for Iraq, until we screwed that one, now another one - IRAN is the big dawg. Never ends.

    Yup. If we left em alone they'd be so busy fighting each other that they'd leave the rest of the world alone. Just let them know that Israel is off limits. In the mean time just put them in a nuclear fish bowl just in case they try to jump out. By the way I don't care who or what religion or ethnic group it is. I don't want to be seen as racist or whatever. No offense to anybody just to everybody. That way I don't play favorites.
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    perkinkeperkinke Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭
    Something that seems to escape most politicians is that our system works relatively well for us in large part because we don't have the history places like Egypt do, and for most other nations history isn't just something to sleep through in high school, it matters to them and the hatreds run deep. Look at the Balkans, they were mashed into a single country that only had stability when a dictator ruled and killed anyone he didn't like (phobic's point), the minute that that fell the old tribal hatreds exploded. Once the country was divided amongst the various ethnic groups things settled out. Iraq is another example, a partitioned country makes FAR more sense than forcing people who hate each other to share a ZIP code, the economics can be worked out after everyone stops bombing each other.

    Plus most of these countries don't have a history of any democratic process. We had the English, Dutch, Bavarian and even the Papal traditions to build on. We need to learn from the mistakes the Brits made over 500 years and stop meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, our system is not right for everyone.
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    Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    perkinke:
    Something that seems to escape most politicians is that our system works relatively well for us in large part because we don't have the history places like Egypt do, and for most other nations history isn't just something to sleep through in high school, it matters to them and the hatreds run deep. Look at the Balkans, they were mashed into a single country that only had stability when a dictator ruled and killed anyone he didn't like (phobic's point), the minute that that fell the old tribal hatreds exploded. Once the country was divided amongst the various ethnic groups things settled out. Iraq is another example, a partitioned country makes FAR more sense than forcing people who hate each other to share a ZIP code, the economics can be worked out after everyone stops bombing each other.

    Plus most of these countries don't have a history of any democratic process. We had the English, Dutch, Bavarian and even the Papal traditions to build on. We need to learn from the mistakes the Brits made over 500 years and stop meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, our system is not right for everyone.
    A lot of wisdom in this post. Our culture climbed out of feudalism rung by rung, fighting and dying for a concept of freedom and equality for generations, and we're still only imperfectly arrived. You cannot impose this on other cultures, and it will/ would take at least a couple generations to educate them to it willingly, NEVER against their will.

    Can it happen? Japan is a good example, but they were ripe, ready for change, and it still took about 100 years. And, like us, they're not all the way there either. Sometimes I think we may be behind them, in fact. Let's catch up, and start setting an example the world wants to follow.

    And still, down deep, I like the approach of "If you ask for and deserve help you'll get it, if you screw with us you're toast. Literally."
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
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    pilgrimtexpilgrimtex Posts: 429
    Japan had a history of emulating their conquerors. That is why they came over to our form of democracy so easily. What will transform a backward country today is technology and commerce. As people begin to make more than a subsistance they begin purchasing more and transform into modern thinking peoples. Communications through the media puts them in touch with the rest of the world etc. I feel China is evolving like that. If they can remain peaceful long enough you will see another Japan begin to rise up as more and more Chinese become better educated and learn more about the world around them. Malaysia Thailand: All these countries are becoming modernized. They're biggest problem unlike China is the Koran.
    Mulas today are whats left of our civil rights leaders clawing to hold onto power creating devisivness between cultures and colors.
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    Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    pilgrimtex:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Some things one should just stay out of. Seems to me that democracy is a oxy moron. I mean since it is working out so well in this country we seem to want to spread the wisdom all over the place. I mean sure a democracy would work in theory if the people in the damn thing had half a brain on what it is that is going on. Another one that I think works good in theory is communism, though that again failed since people F that up as well. Then we have good 'ol authoritarian! Now that's where it is at, I mean dumb people in droves just taking it up the bum, while their leaders screw them over left and right... oh wait that is this country. Moving on, let's say that nothing but dictators really do the job. Worked for Iraq, until we screwed that one, now another one - IRAN is the big dawg. Never ends.

    Yup. If we left em alone they'd be so busy fighting each other that they'd leave the rest of the world alone. Just let them know that Israel is off limits. In the mean time just put them in a nuclear fish bowl just in case they try to jump out. By the way I don't care who or what religion or ethnic group it is. I don't want to be seen as racist or whatever. No offense to anybody just to everybody. That way I don't play favorites.
    Agreed. Misanthropy is the best policy.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
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    rzamanrzaman Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭
    It is easy to comment, criticize and write up an article in the media but the fact is- lots happen under the table by the name of so-called greater Political and Economic interest. My above comment is based on my two decades of professional experience in the Foreign Affairs field.

    At the end, it is not about the religion, race or geographical location. It is based on greater political and economic interest where the word ethics does not exist. People can talk a lot but the fact is this will never change. This is the reality of the “Global Politics”. The worst part is every single country, religion and race has good and bad people. At the end, the good people suffer not the bad one. It has been this way centuries after centuries and it will remain the same. The big question is- how to minimize the risk when we cannot eliminate it.
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    pilgrimtexpilgrimtex Posts: 429
    rzaman:
    It is easy to comment, criticize and write up an article in the media but the fact is- lots happen under the table by the name of so-called greater Political and Economic interest. My above comment is based on my two decades of professional experience in the Foreign Affairs field.

    At the end, it is not about the religion, race or geographical location. It is based on greater political and economic interest where the word ethics does not exist. People can talk a lot but the fact is this will never change. This is the reality of the “Global Politics”. The worst part is every single country, religion and race has good and bad people. At the end, the good people suffer not the bad one. It has been this way centuries after centuries and it will remain the same. The big question is- how to minimize the risk when we cannot eliminate it.

    Agreed. However we cannot minimize the risk because our Government has no ethics as well. We are no different than the peoples of thousands of years who lived, loved conducted business and commerce before us except for the fact that distance no longer plays a role it once did. We may have moved forward technologically but not socialogically. What makes these times dangerous are not as much the political/economic interests (though they are a catalyst) is the poison of religious fanaticism under the hands of a few. Bottom line is we are all the same as our cave dwelling forefathers dressed in suits and talkin on cell phones.
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    Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the things that worries me about Egypt, for Egypt, is the fact that they elected this guy. Fair & Square, they said "he's our man". Change is going to be tough. Don't get me wrong, I think they picked the wrong guy, but if you just boot him before the dust has had a chance to settle, how do you ever make progress. Of course, if he's heading directly in the wrong direction, as he probably was, well, something's got to give.

    This makes me think about my own feelings about that whole part of the world, and what happens there politically. It's easy for me to "knee-jerk" into an attitude of 'the hell with 'em.', but, as Rzaman points out, what about the truly good people who are certainly there and suffering at the hands of the oppressors? Syria being the most prominent example, right now, but Egypt may not be far behind. Do we help? and if so, How?

    I've lost all interest in anything but educational, nutritional, and medical aid. I've reached a point where I no longer believe it is of any use to support "the Resistance", any military aid seems to inevitably end up aimed back at us. Y'know, if they can't build tanks and jets, they probably don't need them.

    We watched Casa Blanca the other night. If we were talking about supporting a Victor Lazlo to lead a resistance, well, I'd be for that. Morsi is about the best these folks seem to be able to summon up, followed by a thug, Hamid Karzai, and after that you get on down to savages who film themselves cutting off the heads of their enemies, or eating their still beating hearts. Assuming those aren't merely some sort of faked propoganda films generated to stir public emotion so we'll support any action.

    For me, it still comes down to history. Rome proved that if you ignore your infrastructure, remain complacent at home while spending all your resources meddling in distant affairs, eventually the barbarians will be at the gates and we won't have the discipline, energy, or will to stand the assault. Very scary times.

    Or maybe I'm just a pessimist.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
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    phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    Well Said Amos. You know I don't believe there have been a lot of people of a nation or colony that have really stood up against their oppressors. I mean we in this country did, however I do feel it is rare. Sure peaceful protests do get the job done sometimes but the sad thing is there is no way to know. Egypt did elect their govt ... so to speak. However like we see in this country choices aren't always the best and sadly those who usually get the top seats are not working for the people. One thing that I really do feel, is that if you give someone something they will not appreciate it. As you can see with all these govts around the world. Most of them did not really fight for them, they just live in them. Just like this country has become. We are not united and really I don't know if we ever were, though we are light years more divided since the inception of this nation. I really don't think since the beginning of the civil war we have. And sadly we have become even more divided in the last decade or two. In my opinion we may never get it back and keep going towards a downward spiral.

    What happened in Egypt won't really change things for the better all that much. Sure the people stood up against their govt, twice now however it seems each time it changes things get worse.
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