Manning Is Gonna Get Hosed...

Today is suppose to be when the judges tells us all what Bradley Manning's future will be. Sadly I am thinking he's going to get life in prison. It will be another sad day for America when once again the secrete state gets away with murder and illegal activities and the people who want it exposed are silenced. I really wish/hope that a world court is set up to kick us in the ass over these things.

Comments

  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    Today is suppose to be when the judges tells us all what Bradley Manning's future will be. Sadly I am thinking he's going to get life in prison. It will be another sad day for America when once again the secrete state gets away with murder and illegal activities and the people who want it exposed are silenced. I really wish/hope that a world court is set up to kick us in the ass over these things.
    Food for thought. He didn't just try to expose an illegal or set of illegal activities he found. He dumped 750,000 documents into the public network. Do you think he actually reviewed all of those for illegal activities or for the safety of those who were in them? Did he actually try to go through proper channels to report his concern to the DoD or DoJ before leaking? I have seen no evidence that he did. Please correct me if there are documents to the contrary.

    I have said it before, there are times that disobedience is the correct response to the unfair or illegal... but it is not the FIRST STEP. Just because you THINK the official and legal path won't work is no excuse to not follow it.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein. Our "democratic government" has evolved to the point that it behaves as if it is a separate entity from the country for which it is supposed to stand for and run. So much for the Constitution and the Amendments thereof! As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein.
    Yeah, let's make network encryption keys public. Nothing wrong with that. I agree there is too much secrecy in government today. But that does not mean there is no need for some. It should be a very small field surrounded by a very high fence instead of the the nested large fields with low fences we have today.
    RBeckom:
    As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    Not sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact there are multiple channels available for reporting, both internally and externally. And that they work.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein.
    Yeah, let's make network encryption keys public. Nothing wrong with that. I agree there is too much secrecy in government today. But that does not mean there is no need for some. It should be a very small field surrounded by a very high fence instead of the the nested large fields with low fences we have today.
    RBeckom:
    As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    Not sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact there are multiple channels available for reporting, both internally and externally. And that they work.



    Then by all means explain exactly how this process works with the end result being that the public would still know the truth. This I fear would be an insurmountable task, but give it a shot.
  • perkinkeperkinke Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein. Our "democratic government" has evolved to the point that it behaves as if it is a separate entity from the country for which it is supposed to stand for and run. So much for the Constitution and the Amendments thereof! As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    This is a BIG pet peeve of mine "unconstitutional." In point of fact, this is one area that the Constitution is explicit: Article 1, Section 5 "Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall, at the desire of one fifth of those present, be entered on the journal." Note the part that says "...excepting such parts as may in their judgement require secrecy;" Thus Congress is explicitly given the right to determine what is secret and what is not regardless of the desire of the public. Article 2, Section 3 requires the President to submit a state of the Union to Congress on matters he deems important. Again, no reference to publication or disclosure to the public and the topic and information is at the President's discretion.

    And frankly, most records are available to citizens through the FOIA, but most citizens are too lazy to do the leg work, instead they want it handed to them. Add to that the sheer number of items now published by agencies on their websites makes the "they're hiding it from me" argument is thin at best. "The government you elect is the government you deserve.", said Thomas Jefferson. This idea that government is somehow separated from "the country" is puzzling, because the "government" is made up of Americans from all across the country of all different beliefs and all political persuasions. Spend some time at the agencies, get involved locally or at your statehouse and your perception should change.

    As for Manning, he pled guilty to a number of counts and will serve some time and deserves to. He violated the law. He may have cost operatives their lives, we don't know. Was what he did morally right? I don't know, we won't know for decades what the real impact of his actions were. Did his disclosure, like Ellsberg's, speed the end of the war? We will have to wait to make that determination. Did he think there would be no consequences for disclosing classified information? If so he was stupid, they tell you all the consequences at basic and in the advanced training for whatever MOS they're put into.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Manning was wrong. There's a time and a place for everything, including secrecy. He violated that time and place.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein.
    Yeah, let's make network encryption keys public. Nothing wrong with that. I agree there is too much secrecy in government today. But that does not mean there is no need for some. It should be a very small field surrounded by a very high fence instead of the the nested large fields with low fences we have today.
    RBeckom:
    As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    Not sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact there are multiple channels available for reporting, both internally and externally. And that they work.



    Then by all means explain exactly how this process works with the end result being that the public would still know the truth. This I fear would be an insurmountable task, but give it a shot.
    Sure thing. This is just one of many ways, but the DoD Inspector General offers a means to report and a searchable database of reports and findings. The reports include investigations, so even if no fault is found, you are able to judge for yourself. And, being part of the system, they have a path for classified reports, allowing sensitive data like troop movements and security plans to be separated out before the report is filed. Is there a chance followings set procedures wouldn't work? Of course there is. Heck, he may have even gotten smeared by the agencies if he tried to report. Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government. But for every screwed up, there are many more that see the system work.

    What annoys me about the whole thing is the HOW of him doing it. The leaking of so much that he hadn't even seen. To put it in "Cigar Forums" terms, it would be like if your town enacted a ban saying you can't smoke on your deck. You don't like this law, you think it shouldn't exist, but instead of taking the time to go through channels to contest the law, you STARTED by breaking the law and smoking on your deck. And not just smoking you cigar or pipe, but smoking every single thing that you were able to get your hands on to start on fire. Civil disobedience is a good tool in fighting the unjust, but it isn't the first step in protest.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    ... whether or not manning did break his oath and did break the law IMO he did alert the people of this country and others that the US was doing illegal things. I think it is crap that a single soldier is held to answer for his little crimes but there is no one being given the same treatment to authorized and or covered up these things that he exposed? Also he was treated horribly before even being brought to trial or charged, that in itself should be trial. The thing we have to look at here isn't so much of a lone soldier selling secrets, because he wasn't, but that the MIC and DOD and even the WH have made anyone who wants to expose their crimes deeply afraid of what will happen to them. I mean sure the govt will have secrets, always has. BUT who decides what and how much secrets are worth and to what extent the law extends for our govt but surely not to its citizens.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    perkinke:
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein. Our "democratic government" has evolved to the point that it behaves as if it is a separate entity from the country for which it is supposed to stand for and run. So much for the Constitution and the Amendments thereof! As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    This is a BIG pet peeve of mine "unconstitutional." In point of fact, this is one area that the Constitution is explicit: Article 1, Section 5 "Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall, at the desire of one fifth of those present, be entered on the journal." Note the part that says "...excepting such parts as may in their judgement require secrecy;" Thus Congress is explicitly given the right to determine what is secret and what is not regardless of the desire of the public. Article 2, Section 3 requires the President to submit a state of the Union to Congress on matters he deems important. Again, no reference to publication or disclosure to the public and the topic and information is at the President's discretion.

    And frankly, most records are available to citizens through the FOIA, but most citizens are too lazy to do the leg work, instead they want it handed to them. Add to that the sheer number of items now published by agencies on their websites makes the "they're hiding it from me" argument is thin at best. "The government you elect is the government you deserve.", said Thomas Jefferson. This idea that government is somehow separated from "the country" is puzzling, because the "government" is made up of Americans from all across the country of all different beliefs and all political persuasions. Spend some time at the agencies, get involved locally or at your statehouse and your perception should change.

    As for Manning, he pled guilty to a number of counts and will serve some time and deserves to. He violated the law. He may have cost operatives their lives, we don't know. Was what he did morally right? I don't know, we won't know for decades what the real impact of his actions were. Did his disclosure, like Ellsberg's, speed the end of the war? We will have to wait to make that determination. Did he think there would be no consequences for disclosing classified information? If so he was stupid, they tell you all the consequences at basic and in the advanced training for whatever MOS they're put into.
    The thing is the congress doesn't know squat and what they do know is what they are allowed to know. Those that are on committees that know of this crap should be prosecuted as well. Congress should have oversight of the military but they do not. They allowed the continuing extension of money to fund these wars and these programs and they should be held accountable. The oath that one takes also states that you will follow lawful orders ... Now that goes two ways. If the POTUS or any other person in command orders something illegal what are you suppose to do? Sure you can deny it but you really think you'll be not thrown in jail or worse? I mean you are holding up your end of the oath and they are not. So let's say that Manning was careless with the data, sure. But did the WH lie about Iraq? They did torture, they did do massive amount of illegal activities but why no trial for those responsible? Why is it that Manning has the rest of his life to be in prison (probably) and horribly treated but those who did far worse crimes are collecting a pension and living the easy life? I wish we had more mannings and it need be this country topples over it's own lies and deceit. I hate it that because of people in power that they smear this countries name and crap all over our rights.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    perkinke:
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein. Our "democratic government" has evolved to the point that it behaves as if it is a separate entity from the country for which it is supposed to stand for and run. So much for the Constitution and the Amendments thereof! As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    This is a BIG pet peeve of mine "unconstitutional." In point of fact, this is one area that the Constitution is explicit: Article 1, Section 5 "Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall, at the desire of one fifth of those present, be entered on the journal." Note the part that says "...excepting such parts as may in their judgement require secrecy;" Thus Congress is explicitly given the right to determine what is secret and what is not regardless of the desire of the public. Article 2, Section 3 requires the President to submit a state of the Union to Congress on matters he deems important. Again, no reference to publication or disclosure to the public and the topic and information is at the President's discretion.

    And frankly, most records are available to citizens through the FOIA, but most citizens are too lazy to do the leg work, instead they want it handed to them. Add to that the sheer number of items now published by agencies on their websites makes the "they're hiding it from me" argument is thin at best. "The government you elect is the government you deserve.", said Thomas Jefferson. This idea that government is somehow separated from "the country" is puzzling, because the "government" is made up of Americans from all across the country of all different beliefs and all political persuasions. Spend some time at the agencies, get involved locally or at your statehouse and your perception should change.

    As for Manning, he pled guilty to a number of counts and will serve some time and deserves to. He violated the law. He may have cost operatives their lives, we don't know. Was what he did morally right? I don't know, we won't know for decades what the real impact of his actions were. Did his disclosure, like Ellsberg's, speed the end of the war? We will have to wait to make that determination. Did he think there would be no consequences for disclosing classified information? If so he was stupid, they tell you all the consequences at basic and in the advanced training for whatever MOS they're put into.
    The thing is the congress doesn't know squat and what they do know is what they are allowed to know. Those that are on committees that know of this crap should be prosecuted as well. Congress should have oversight of the military but they do not. They allowed the continuing extension of money to fund these wars and these programs and they should be held accountable. The oath that one takes also states that you will follow lawful orders ... Now that goes two ways. If the POTUS or any other person in command orders something illegal what are you suppose to do? Sure you can deny it but you really think you'll be not thrown in jail or worse? I mean you are holding up your end of the oath and they are not. So let's say that Manning was careless with the data, sure. But did the WH lie about Iraq? They did torture, they did do massive amount of illegal activities but why no trial for those responsible? Why is it that Manning has the rest of his life to be in prison (probably) and horribly treated but those who did far worse crimes are collecting a pension and living the easy life? I wish we had more mannings and it need be this country topples over it's own lies and deceit. I hate it that because of people in power that they smear this countries name and crap all over our rights.



    +1
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Personally, I feel like the withholding of information from the people by the so called "government" to be unconstitutional in the first place and furthermore that no treasonous act has occurred herein.
    Yeah, let's make network encryption keys public. Nothing wrong with that. I agree there is too much secrecy in government today. But that does not mean there is no need for some. It should be a very small field surrounded by a very high fence instead of the the nested large fields with low fences we have today.
    RBeckom:
    As for the proper channels, non exist within the "government", that is only upheld within the Military and even then only on a limited basis.
    Not sure what you mean by this. I know for a fact there are multiple channels available for reporting, both internally and externally. And that they work.



    Then by all means explain exactly how this process works with the end result being that the public would still know the truth. This I fear would be an insurmountable task, but give it a shot.
    Sure thing. This is just one of many ways, but the DoD Inspector General offers a means to report and a searchable database of reports and findings. The reports include investigations, so even if no fault is found, you are able to judge for yourself. And, being part of the system, they have a path for classified reports, allowing sensitive data like troop movements and security plans to be separated out before the report is filed. Is there a chance followings set procedures wouldn't work? Of course there is. Heck, he may have even gotten smeared by the agencies if he tried to report. Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government. But for every screwed up, there are many more that see the system work.

    What annoys me about the whole thing is the HOW of him doing it. The leaking of so much that he hadn't even seen. To put it in "Cigar Forums" terms, it would be like if your town enacted a ban saying you can't smoke on your deck. You don't like this law, you think it shouldn't exist, but instead of taking the time to go through channels to contest the law, you STARTED by breaking the law and smoking on your deck. And not just smoking you cigar or pipe, but smoking every single thing that you were able to get your hands on to start on fire. Civil disobedience is a good tool in fighting the unjust, but it isn't the first step in protest.



    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Yeah occupy found that out the hard way. Hell states had to get their police armed and on full riot detail. American people turned Taliban in a split second. Seems as though our own police have no problems treating citizens in mass like terrorists. Sad really, especially since one would think we would out grow that.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that I in fact fell sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend.
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."



    Again the same. I pointed out that the links to proper channels do not work and that furthermore civil disobedience does not either, you however have taken it upon your self to ridicule me when I have tried to be civil in my speech and this my friend speaks loudly of you. I have studied the history of our Great Country and my conclusions are based of fact. Many great men have fallen before the bullet or gas or even the baton of their oppressors while trying to peaceable protest. There will always be oppression no matter the country of which you speak. It is part of life, albeit a troublesome one, that will never be quenched. You may as you wish continue to belittle me but nothing good will come of it I assure you.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."



    Again the same. I pointed out that the links to proper channels do not work and that furthermore civil disobedience does not either, you however have taken it upon your self to ridicule me when I have tried to be civil in my speech and this my friend speaks loudly of you. I have studied the history of our Great Country and my conclusions are based of fact. Many great men have fallen before the bullet or gas or even the baton of their oppressors while trying to peaceable protest. There will always be oppression no matter the country of which you speak. It is part of life, albeit a troublesome one, that will never be quenched. You may as you wish continue to belittle me but nothing good will come of it I assure you.
    Once again, any evidence the channels never work? I keep asking, and you keep dodging. I am just saying, the link I provided had over 4000 reports for this year alone, and as I said before, is only one of many options for reporting.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."



    Again the same. I pointed out that the links to proper channels do not work and that furthermore civil disobedience does not either, you however have taken it upon your self to ridicule me when I have tried to be civil in my speech and this my friend speaks loudly of you. I have studied the history of our Great Country and my conclusions are based of fact. Many great men have fallen before the bullet or gas or even the baton of their oppressors while trying to peaceable protest. There will always be oppression no matter the country of which you speak. It is part of life, albeit a troublesome one, that will never be quenched. You may as you wish continue to belittle me but nothing good will come of it I assure you.
    Once again, any evidence the channels never work? I keep asking, and you keep dodging. I am just saying, the link I provided had over 4000 reports for this year alone, and as I said before, is only one of many options for reporting.



    I dodge not a thing my friend, I only offer my opinions. The rest resides on your head.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."



    Again the same. I pointed out that the links to proper channels do not work and that furthermore civil disobedience does not either, you however have taken it upon your self to ridicule me when I have tried to be civil in my speech and this my friend speaks loudly of you. I have studied the history of our Great Country and my conclusions are based of fact. Many great men have fallen before the bullet or gas or even the baton of their oppressors while trying to peaceable protest. There will always be oppression no matter the country of which you speak. It is part of life, albeit a troublesome one, that will never be quenched. You may as you wish continue to belittle me but nothing good will come of it I assure you.
    Once again, any evidence the channels never work? I keep asking, and you keep dodging. I am just saying, the link I provided had over 4000 reports for this year alone, and as I said before, is only one of many options for reporting.



    I dodge not a thing my friend, I only offer my opinions. The rest resides on your head.
    Fair enough. And you are entitled to your opinions. I am just letting you know the facts disagree.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    jthanatos:
    RBeckom:
    Whistle blowers getting screwed is not unique to government.
    Of this point I agree.
    No man stands a chance when he tries to go against the many.
    Never had and never will.
    As for civil disobedience, well lets just say that it has been tried hundreds of times and ultimately failed.
    It failed because under our laws concerning such there is many laws to break apart and scatter all those who oppose the powers that be.
    Unlawful conduct, unlawful gathering, assembly without the proper permits, and many more.
    Civil disobedience will never be the answer.
    Only under the scrutiny of whistle blowers will our government even act like it cares what we think.
    Not sure what more can be said. Your world must be pretty terrifying to live in, thinking the government is always out to get you, and it can never be changed without violence and endangering peoples lives. Glad it isn't the real world.



    Your snide comments belie the fact that I am right or else you would have something more to the point to add to this discussion, it is you that is in fact felt sorry for because you are evidently in a state of denial my friend..
    I speak words from lessons learned the hard way all throughout history, from where do you get your words?
    I have said things to the point repeatedly. I have provided sited sources. You have made ancedotal poems. I provide facts. I respond to your questions, you ignore the answers I provide. You provide lessons from history? The easiest way to disprove your whole thesis on civil disobedience is with this.
    image

    True, I did get snide, and perhaps that was too unkind. However, it is tiresome to provide answers to your questions only to see you dismiss them with no actual citations. To quote you from another thread, "Very little true knowledge about American History was revealed by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts."



    Again the same. I pointed out that the links to proper channels do not work and that furthermore civil disobedience does not either, you however have taken it upon your self to ridicule me when I have tried to be civil in my speech and this my friend speaks loudly of you. I have studied the history of our Great Country and my conclusions are based of fact. Many great men have fallen before the bullet or gas or even the baton of their oppressors while trying to peaceable protest. There will always be oppression no matter the country of which you speak. It is part of life, albeit a troublesome one, that will never be quenched. You may as you wish continue to belittle me but nothing good will come of it I assure you.
    Once again, any evidence the channels never work? I keep asking, and you keep dodging. I am just saying, the link I provided had over 4000 reports for this year alone, and as I said before, is only one of many options for reporting.



    I dodge not a thing my friend, I only offer my opinions. The rest resides on your head.
    Fair enough. And you are entitled to your opinions. I am just letting you know the facts disagree.



    Facts are a myriad of millions and every man here could find enough to prove his point so let us end it here with both of us having our own facts to back what we each in turn speak of without either having to loose face, in this way we both have an out. Be not snide or cross my friend because not a good thing shall come from therein. Always remember this and take it to heart. I judge you wise in your ways as I am in my own ways.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
    We're finally on our own.
    This summer I hear the drumming,
    Four dead in Ohio.

    Gotta get down to it
    Soldiers are cutting us down
    Should have been done long ago.
    What if you knew her
    And found her dead on the ground
    How can you run when you know?

    Neil Young, 1970
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭
    When a post starts to perpetually circle itself and the same words repeated.
    For all intent it is itself dead because things are prone to become heated.
    This I say with a clearness of mind.
    Why should we argue when the wisdom of such is naught to find.
    Views are views and people are the same spoiling as to prove they have to be right.
    The words of politics are always going to lead people to fight.
    History has proved that my words to be true.
    Please do not strike me and put back on your shoe.
    For if it were to strike me would leave a funny mark upon my face.
    And this my friend would be an unbearable disgrace!
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