Switched to synthetics on the scooter

WaltBasil

2009 HD Heritage Softail Classic. Been riding since the 80s, and in 2009 I was finally able to afford my dream bike. Been doing some research on which oils to throw in which holes and I came up with using Mobile 1 synthetic ATF in my primary, Mobile 1 synthetic 75w90 in the tranny, and Mobile 1 Synthetic Vtwin 20w50 in the crank hole. I was on vacation all last week, and pulled the trigger since I had the primary cover off to adjust the clutch anyways.

All I can say is... wow. what a huge difference. I noticed a difference right off the bat after the change. Rode it a few miles, filled up the gas tank. Temps were in the 60s. This morning was a really good test. 22 degrees outside. Shifting should have been a little harder than usual in that cold... but no.. it started out very smooth. After a couple miles and warming up a bit... I actually thought it was broke. It was shifting into gear so smoothly, I didn't feel it shift. Holy cow.

Of course I'm not recommending anyone do this... You'll void your warranty for sure if it's under one. Mine's been out of warranty now for some time.

dr_frankenstein56

its the rubbing action and seals that will get you into trouble with the synthetic oil... mostly older engines. I dont think your Harley has any "rubbing" action left in its design so your completly good to go! but for older things, with Flat Tappets in there camshaft or direct action followers like on my old Triumph the synthetic oil will destroy the engine in very very short time. Also if you have anything old that uses "rope", Asbestos, leather, cork, cardboard or non positive lip seals you will find big leaks in short time.

WaltBasil

Good to know stuff!

0patience

Been running Lucas synthetic on my 08 since new.
And I had a full service contract with the dealer, where they changed the oil and performed the services on the bike.
Synthetic oil has been approved by Harley, since 2003 and though they would like you to use their SYN3 oil, they can't void the dealer if you use another brand that meets their specs.

Some dealers might try and tell you that it will void the warranty.
A federal act, called the Magnuson-Moss Act specifically prohibits a manufacturer from voiding warranties on the use of off brand (not the manufacturer's) oils, lubes and parts.
The caveat is that the oils, lubes and parts used must meet or exceed the manufacturer's specifications, which a lot of synthetics meet Harley's specifications.

I did wait to change the mufflers and re-mapping until she was out of warranty though.

Amos_Umwhat

I can verify Dr. Frankensteins info about seals, etc. I switched my '87 FXR to synthetics at about 68,000 miles, had to replace many gaskets soon after. Kept with the synthetics, though, and when I sold it, at > 106,000 miles, the compression numbers were identical to what I'd recorded at 1,000 miles. My '05 FLHT has always had synthetics, no problems at all.

webmost

+1+

I like to buy old bikes, bring them back to life, and flip them. Usually do one or two a year. A few years back a friend of mine wrecked his Honda 919 after previously promising the wife if he had one more wreck he'd give up bikes. I bought his wreck and his BMW R1100R. First task was to restore the Roadster. After 75k miles, he had switched to synthetics. Every last seal in the bike promptly went kaput. Leaked like a sieve. Ride to work you'd have both pant legs splattered in oil. Had to replace every gasket. Biggest PITA was the rear main leaking on the clutch. Even the O-ring round the oil level sight glass went. Crimenently.

Recently, a friend with a K1100RS called up with the same problem. Switched to synthetic and now he was eating seals. Have heard of numerous other similar.

So... if it's a vote ...

Dino juice changed frequently.

dr_frankenstein56

I have been wrenching for 15 years now and for me I cant justfy the cost of syn oil for its proposed advantages. sure, it last longer and is more "slippery" for lack of a better term then regular oil... but it doesnt seem to have the wear or pressure abilitys that bone oil has. I feel that atleast regular oil changes, or maybe shorter intervals then reccomended is a good habit to be in, be it syn or bone oil. Simply because its offers valuable insight as to the health of your engine. I go as far as cutting the oil filter open for deeper inspection. so for somebody who changes there oil as much as i do... the cost of bone oil favors its use.

Aj

firetruckguy

There are over the road truckers going 150,000 miles on synthetic oil. All my trucks(fire truck) are on synthetic oil, ATF, and 85w-140 gear oil. I go between 500 and 750 hours between oil changes and take samples when dropping the oil. I have yet to have a hot(bad) oil sample from the synthetics breaking down. I would have had numerous hot oil samples with conventional oil.

BTW, I have been using 5w-20 full synthetic in my dodge ram hemi for the last 6 years. I drain and replace the oil filter every 10k, and I tow every day with it. I have 150K on the ram and yet to have a problem with my engine.

I'm a synthetic lover.........

0patience

dr_frankenstein56:

I have been wrenching for 15 years now and for me I cant justfy the cost of syn oil for its proposed advantages. sure, it last longer and is more "slippery" for lack of a better term then regular oil... but it doesnt seem to have the wear or pressure abilitys that bone oil has. I feel that atleast regular oil changes, or maybe shorter intervals then reccomended is a good habit to be in, be it syn or bone oil. Simply because its offers valuable insight as to the health of your engine. I go as far as cutting the oil filter open for deeper inspection. so for somebody who changes there oil as much as i do... the cost of bone oil favors its use.

Aj

Well, gonna have to disagree with you on some things.
According to Sequence IVA (ASTM D6891) test that all oils must go through, most show synthetic having a higher wear resistance rating and higher temp breakdown point. I won't say all, cause there is always that one sample that will prove me wrong.

Higher temp breakdown point equals higher pressure ability. That is physics, not theory.

This is where automotive mechanics and heavy truck/equipment mechanics differ.
A lot of automotive mechanics see no need for synthetic, because most automotive applications don't see extreme wear. While the heavy truck and equipment mechanics, for the most part, see extreme applications with extensive oil analysis.
A lot of automotive mechanics never have seen an oil analysis.
There is no for them to. Most customers aren't going to want to pay for analysis.

Then there is the contamination brought on by water and how it affects regular oil versus synthetic (true synthetic). Water will create acids in regular oils over time. Most oil analysis has proven this. So while a lot of people don't realize that mileage plays a big part in changing the oil, so does time.

In the case of motorcycles, this can become important, as quite a few motorcycles see less than the specified mileage in a year. Synthetics have proven to hold up better time-wise than regular organic oil.
This has been debated since the beginning of synthetic oils.

This is one of those subjects where mis-information runs rampant. Brought on by people who's experience with certain oils in the early 70s and 80s, has closed their minds to certain things.

I run synthetics in my Harley, I run organic (what you would call regular) oil in the family car and the fleet I work on is split. Light vehicles (sedans and SUVs) run organic oil, while heavy trucks and heavy equipment run synthetic.

firetruckguy:

I would have had numerous hot oil samples with conventional oil.

I have had numerous bad samples on conventional oil.
In our situation, most are related to moisture, acid and high temps breaking down viscosity.

dr_frankenstein56

0patience:

dr_frankenstein56:

I have been wrenching for 15 years now and for me I cant justfy the cost of syn oil for its proposed advantages. sure, it last longer and is more "slippery" for lack of a better term then regular oil... but it doesnt seem to have the wear or pressure abilitys that bone oil has. I feel that atleast regular oil changes, or maybe shorter intervals then reccomended is a good habit to be in, be it syn or bone oil. Simply because its offers valuable insight as to the health of your engine. I go as far as cutting the oil filter open for deeper inspection. so for somebody who changes there oil as much as i do... the cost of bone oil favors its use.

Aj

Well, gonna have to disagree with you on some things.
According to Sequence IVA (ASTM D6891) test that all oils must go through, most show synthetic having a higher wear resistance rating and higher temp breakdown point. I won't say all, cause there is always that one sample that will prove me wrong.

Higher temp breakdown point equals higher pressure ability. That is physics, not theory.

This is where automotive mechanics and heavy truck/equipment mechanics differ.
A lot of automotive mechanics see no need for synthetic, because most automotive applications don't see extreme wear. While the heavy truck and equipment mechanics, for the most part, see extreme applications with extensive oil analysis.
A lot of automotive mechanics never have seen an oil analysis.
There is no for them to. Most customers aren't going to want to pay for analysis.

Then there is the contamination brought on by water and how it affects regular oil versus synthetic (true synthetic). Water will create acids in regular oils over time. Most oil analysis has proven this. So while a lot of people don't realize that mileage plays a big part in changing the oil, so does time.

In the case of motorcycles, this can become important, as quite a few motorcycles see less than the specified mileage in a year. Synthetics have proven to hold up better time-wise than regular organic oil.
This has been debated since the beginning of synthetic oils.

This is one of those subjects where mis-information runs rampant. Brought on by people who's experience with certain oils in the early 70s and 80s, has closed their minds to certain things.

I run synthetics in my Harley, I run organic (what you would call regular) oil in the family car and the fleet I work on is split. Light vehicles (sedans and SUVs) run organic oil, while heavy trucks and heavy equipment run synthetic.

firetruckguy:

I would have had numerous hot oil samples with conventional oil.

I have had numerous bad samples on conventional oil.
In our situation, most are related to moisture, acid and high temps breaking down viscosity.

I absolutly agree that synthetics are better for most uses. no argument there from me.

my experiance with syn has been terrible to say the least. But 90% of all i work on is based on designs that were concieved in the 50s. I still use alot of flat tappet camshafts and in my experiance, synthetics they will not support the action for any length of time at all, I have a crate of ruined camshafts from racers who think they know better. Same applys to the seal issue that is common on most engines I build. Great example being my Buick V6, made all the way until 1988 but still used an Asbestos type of rope seal and still with flat tappet camshafts.
However, i cant say that i have ever had a bad conventional oil sample, being all my work is performance based... oil samples cant be trusted due to the amount the oil is changed, and how much abuse it withstands in very very short amounts of time. I cant say there are any advantages long term for conventional oil, i have no data to base on... couple of strip passes and the oil is so contaminated from boost and alcohol it comes right back out within the day. I would say it would be an awful expensive day of racing if i went through 5 gallons of synthetic oil, alcohol and tires are bad enough. I guess I should say for the average mechanic, or for the daily driver Synthetic would be the preferred product.

my biggest beef with synthetic right now is that i had Royal Purple 5w30 in my subaru and during the june heat climbing a mountain pass it tossed a rod bearing. was it the car? was it the oil? we will find out soon during the rebuild.

0patience

dr_frankenstein56:

I absolutly agree that synthetics are better for most uses. no argument there from me.

my experiance with syn has been terrible to say the least. But 90% of all i work on is based on designs that were concieved in the 50s. I still use alot of flat tappet camshafts and in my experiance, synthetics they will not support the action for any length of time at all, I have a crate of ruined camshafts from racers who think they know better. Same applys to the seal issue that is common on most engines I build. Great example being my Buick V6, made all the way until 1988 but still used an Asbestos type of rope seal and still with flat tappet camshafts.
However, i cant say that i have ever had a bad conventional oil sample, being all my work is performance based... oil samples cant be trusted due to the amount the oil is changed, and how much abuse it withstands in very very short amounts of time. I cant say there are any advantages long term for conventional oil, i have no data to base on... couple of strip passes and the oil is so contaminated from boost and alcohol it comes right back out within the day. I would say it would be an awful expensive day of racing if i went through 5 gallons of synthetic oil, alcohol and tires are bad enough. I guess I should say for the average mechanic, or for the daily driver Synthetic would be the preferred product.

my biggest beef with synthetic right now is that i had Royal Purple 5w30 in my subaru and during the june heat climbing a mountain pass it tossed a rod bearing. was it the car? was it the oil? we will find out soon during the rebuild.

If cams are having problems, it is a break in or adjustment problem, not the oil.
I've been building small block and big block chevy engines since the late 70s and have only seen one cam failure and the reason it failed was because the cam gear bolts failed 3/4 way down the strip and that was attributed to the DIYer who put it together. Bent valves, bent pushrods and a cam that broke in 3 pieces.
It landed on my doorstep for evaluation.

And this statement, "I guess I should say for the average mechanic, or for the daily driver Synthetic would be the preferred product."
I hope you aren't inferring I'm just an average mechanic.

dr_frankenstein56

0patience:

dr_frankenstein56:

I absolutly agree that synthetics are better for most uses. no argument there from me.

my experiance with syn has been terrible to say the least. But 90% of all i work on is based on designs that were concieved in the 50s. I still use alot of flat tappet camshafts and in my experiance, synthetics they will not support the action for any length of time at all, I have a crate of ruined camshafts from racers who think they know better. Same applys to the seal issue that is common on most engines I build. Great example being my Buick V6, made all the way until 1988 but still used an Asbestos type of rope seal and still with flat tappet camshafts.
However, i cant say that i have ever had a bad conventional oil sample, being all my work is performance based... oil samples cant be trusted due to the amount the oil is changed, and how much abuse it withstands in very very short amounts of time. I cant say there are any advantages long term for conventional oil, i have no data to base on... couple of strip passes and the oil is so contaminated from boost and alcohol it comes right back out within the day. I would say it would be an awful expensive day of racing if i went through 5 gallons of synthetic oil, alcohol and tires are bad enough. I guess I should say for the average mechanic, or for the daily driver Synthetic would be the preferred product.

my biggest beef with synthetic right now is that i had Royal Purple 5w30 in my subaru and during the june heat climbing a mountain pass it tossed a rod bearing. was it the car? was it the oil? we will find out soon during the rebuild.

If cams are having problems, it is a break in or adjustment problem, not the oil.
I've been building small block and big block chevy engines since the late 70s and have only seen one cam failure and the reason it failed was because the cam gear bolts failed 3/4 way down the strip and that was attributed to the DIYer who put it together. Bent valves, bent pushrods and a cam that broke in 3 pieces.
It landed on my doorstep for evaluation.

And this statement, "I guess I should say for the average mechanic, or for the daily driver Synthetic would be the preferred product."
I hope you aren't inferring I'm just an average mechanic.

not at all should it suggest your the average Mechanic.... maybe i dont write as well as I think what im trying to say. However, I strongly disagree that its install problems associated with the large number of cam failures i have experianced. I would have to argue that its the sythetic oil that is my culprit as i dont have these issues when using the conventional oil. If it were all roller cams, you would have it licked 100% .... but with the flat tappet... I argue the point.

I hope i dont offend, I truly like to have these conversations, and alot can be personal opinion. But thats what makes working on cars fun. Please take my "speak" with a grain of salt. im a poor writer!

Aj

0patience

No worries. Just wanted to be clear.
After thinking about the cam situation I think I see the problem and I feel a little silly not seeing it at first.
Synthetic is not break in oil and on strip engines, running synthetic would indeed destroy a cam.
So yes I have to agree. Synthetic would never allow the came and lifters to wear in properly. The same as it wouldn't allow the rings to seat.

dr_frankenstein56

0patience:

No worries. Just wanted to be clear.
After thinking about the cam situation I think I see the problem and I feel a little silly not seeing it at first.
Synthetic is not break in oil and on strip engines, running synthetic would indeed destroy a cam.
So yes I have to agree. Synthetic would never allow the came and lifters to wear in properly. The same as it wouldn't allow the rings to seat.

i thought more about it, and really really..... Your completly right. In all seriousness, your truly right because of the facts alone i stated. Your view is the right one because i realized its me, who is the exception and the 1% that maybe it doesnt apply. Its my opions due to the nature of my work that screw everybody else up. Im the muddy part! And you caught me on it! Lmao! Too funny! My opinion really only applys for 1 specific application and for particular reason that i dont even follow myself. My daily was on the royal purple syn and yea it died but thats because its a crappy car. Im mixing apples and oranges and it was foolish of me.

so i agree, if you can safetly go to synthetic then by all means, its the smart choice. Man, was that fun or what? Got my brain running!

Aj

0patience

I liked it. It got me thinking.
After your post about the cams and my post, it was nagging at me.
Why would there be a cam failure problem using synthetic.
Ah ha! The lightbulb came on.
Application is everything.
We had a few problems with folks who wanted to strictly drag race engines and made complaints of the rings not seating. Again, it was improper oil for the application.

These things get the brain working. LOL!