Huh. I didn't know this.

webmost

Martel

I'm not really a gun guy, but this is cool. I did write a paper on Lewis and Clark in 4th grade...

raisindot

Interesting story.

However, I think the guy's claim of the importance of that particular rifle is way overstated. In 1803, the white man wasn't yet perceived as a huge threat to the plains Indians. White Americans hadn't settled that far beyond the Ohio River Valley. The Indians had already established amicable trading relationships with French, Spanish and British traders and trappers. They knew it was to their benefit to be hospitable to whites they encountered, who often brought with them the items they wanted to buy. There were very few stories of Indians killing Europeans crossing their lands--which would have been very to do, given that many of these Europeans were solitary fur trappers who would have been easy targets.

If you read histories of the Lewis & Clark expedition, you find that most of the tribes they encountered with not warrior tribes. Also, having 36 men (and one Indian woman) in the expedition was probably a far greater deterrent to an attack than a single rifle. The presence of Sagawacea probably had a far more profound effect on curbing potential hostility than a rifle. In fact, the expedition almost met its doom near the end of its journey west when they encountered a hostile tribe that wasn't impressed by beads and kettles or scared off by air rifles. L&C would probably have been massacred had Sagawacea not recognized one of the members as belonging to her tribe, and was able to talk the Indians out of attacking them.

Martel

raisindot:

Interesting story.

However, I think the guy's claim of the importance of that particular rifle is way overstated. In 1803, the white man wasn't yet perceived as a huge threat to the plains Indians. White Americans hadn't settled that far beyond the Ohio River Valley. The Indians had already established amicable trading relationships with French, Spanish and British traders and trappers. They knew it was to their benefit to be hospitable to whites they encountered, who often brought with them the items they wanted to buy. There were very few stories of Indians killing Europeans crossing their lands--which would have been very to do, given that many of these Europeans were solitary fur trappers who would have been easy targets.

If you read histories of the Lewis & Clark expedition, you find that most of the tribes they encountered with not warrior tribes. Also, having 36 men (and one Indian woman) in the expedition was probably a far greater deterrent to an attack than a single rifle. The presence of Sagawacea probably had a far more profound effect on curbing potential hostility than a rifle. In fact, the expedition almost met its doom near the end of its journey west when they encountered a hostile tribe that wasn't impressed by beads and kettles or scared off by air rifles. L&C would probably have been massacred had Sagawacea not recognized one of the members as belonging to her tribe, and was able to talk the Indians out of attacking them.

Good points; I briefly considered the gist of what you're saying, but it's still a neat story. I had no idea there was an air rifle on the expedition. That alone is a cool point to make.

raisindot

Martel:

raisindot:

Interesting story.

However, I think the guy's claim of the importance of that particular rifle is way overstated. In 1803, the white man wasn't yet perceived as a huge threat to the plains Indians. White Americans hadn't settled that far beyond the Ohio River Valley. The Indians had already established amicable trading relationships with French, Spanish and British traders and trappers. They knew it was to their benefit to be hospitable to whites they encountered, who often brought with them the items they wanted to buy. There were very few stories of Indians killing Europeans crossing their lands--which would have been very to do, given that many of these Europeans were solitary fur trappers who would have been easy targets.

If you read histories of the Lewis & Clark expedition, you find that most of the tribes they encountered with not warrior tribes. Also, having 36 men (and one Indian woman) in the expedition was probably a far greater deterrent to an attack than a single rifle. The presence of Sagawacea probably had a far more profound effect on curbing potential hostility than a rifle. In fact, the expedition almost met its doom near the end of its journey west when they encountered a hostile tribe that wasn't impressed by beads and kettles or scared off by air rifles. L&C would probably have been massacred had Sagawacea not recognized one of the members as belonging to her tribe, and was able to talk the Indians out of attacking them.

Good points; I briefly considered the gist of what you're saying, but it's still a neat story. I had no idea there was an air rifle on the expedition. That alone is a cool point to make.

Oh, in terms of the air rifle itself, I totally agree with you. I always thought air rifles were the equivalent of B-B guns--something you can poke your eye out with and that are sold in direct mail catalogs because selling traditional firearms through the mail isn't allowed in some states. I never thought they could be lethal to anything larger than a squirrel, but obviously they packed a punch. Though I wonder how practical they would be for hunting or for war, given you needed to pump them 1,500 times to build up the air pressure to do one shot. Of course, that woiuld've been one hell of a shot. I'm sure for L&C, having something that was far more efficient than the antiquated, unreliable muskets of the time was a great thing. Contrary to what the guy says, I don't think it would be such a great mystery as to how L&C got one. Jefferson might have one shipped over from his friends in France, or one might have made its way from the Louisiana Territory to Virginia. One has to believe that there were more than one of them in possession of U.S. citizens at the time, because if there was only one on the entire continent it's highly unlikely anyone would have given it to two novice explorers whose success was by no means guaranteed. However, I would conjecture that while many of the plains Indians were aware that "fire sticks" existed that very few actually had them. They would have been impressed by any kind of rifle, whether it "smoked" or not.

webmost

I just wanna own one.

Bob_Luken

raisindot:

Though I wonder how practical they would be for hunting or for war, given you needed to pump them 1,500 times to build up the air pressure to do one shot.

Hold on just a minute there. They guy in the video says, plain as day, it's capable of 22 consecutive shots (of .46 caliber balls) in less than 30 seconds. Even though Wikipedia says it only has a 19 shot magazine. Pretty fuc#ing impressive, no matter if you're a native or a white man, considering that repeating rifles didn't come into their own until about 50 years later.

raisindot

Bob Luken:

raisindot:

Though I wonder how practical they would be for hunting or for war, given you needed to pump them 1,500 times to build up the air pressure to do one shot.

Hold on just a minute there. They guy in the video says, plain as day, it's capable of 22 consecutive shots (of .46 caliber balls) in less than 30 seconds. Even though Wikipedia says it only has a 19 shot magazine. Pretty fuc#ing impressive, no matter if you're a native or a white man, considering that repeating rifles didn't come into their own until about 50 years later.

Well, sure it is. But if you had never seen a rifle or any kind of gun in action before, even a BB gun would have been impressive. Very cool, but I don't buy the argument that this particular rifle "changed history." Guns don't change history. People do.

Bob_Luken

raisindot:

Guns don't change history. People do.

Hey! That sounds familiar. LOL

webmost

Register people.

Amos_Umwhat

webmost:

Register people.

SSAN

webmost

webmost:

Register people.

I'm in favor of a nine month waiting period before you can register a people.

raisindot

webmost:

webmost:

Register people.

I'm in favor of a nine month waiting period before you can register a people.

Me, too. I also think couples should have to take and pass a Basic Parenting Skills class and pass a psychological fitness test before being allowed to have children. Then again, I probably would have failed em....

jlmarta

I'm surprised that none of you who watched the video mentioned the narrator's slip of the tongue when he said that L & C made it to the headwaters of the Potomac. He obviously meant the Columbia.

An interesting video, nonetheless....