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Any painters here?
jsnake
Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hey fellas been super busy lately with the kids and projects and work. Installed a new back door and screen door. Wanted a nice finish on the door so I went with Glidden Gel Flow paint that is supposed to dry smooth with no brush marks. Painted the door frame and was pretty excited to see it worked as advertised. Took the door down and painted in yesterday and when you paint a larger surface the stuff is absolutely worthless.
Spent all day scrapping and sanding the gel paint off. Looks like crap just fyi but I think with some stripper and sanding it will be fine. Anyways I have decided to paint it the old fashion way with regular latex paint. I will be using a high gloss paint and I am trying to figure on what the best paint sprayer would be without a crazy price tag. These Wagner 590 and 890 sprayers look great but reviews are either great or horrible with not much in between. The videos look sweet but I have no experience with spraying paint. I have plywood to test on but I want some advice from guys who may have first hand experience with an affordable painter.
Let me know what you would recommend and like I said I want it to be able to spray a thicker paint. Thanks
Spent all day scrapping and sanding the gel paint off. Looks like crap just fyi but I think with some stripper and sanding it will be fine. Anyways I have decided to paint it the old fashion way with regular latex paint. I will be using a high gloss paint and I am trying to figure on what the best paint sprayer would be without a crazy price tag. These Wagner 590 and 890 sprayers look great but reviews are either great or horrible with not much in between. The videos look sweet but I have no experience with spraying paint. I have plywood to test on but I want some advice from guys who may have first hand experience with an affordable painter.
Let me know what you would recommend and like I said I want it to be able to spray a thicker paint. Thanks
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A cheap brush will give a crappy result.
Technique matters, direction and how you pull out of your stroke, etc. Always brush with the grain.
Cheap paint will give a crappy result. Yours was a well known name, I'm not familiar with "gel" paint. Personally I like Porter, Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, and Valspar. Pretty much in that order.
As FW said, thin coats are always better. You can expect it to look cheap and chintzy if you try and cover with just one coat.
Surface preparation is key. Paint cannot make an unfinished surface look finished.
Good luck.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
1st off a door only takes a pint of paint to cover it, a quart will have some left over even after 2 full coat's, and a pro paint sprayer will take 2 to 3 qts (1/2 to 3/4 gallon) just to fill the lines and prime the machine, a good alkyd/solvent paint is awesome both brushing and using an HVLP - I have a CS9100 I absolutely LOVE but it was 900.00, if you use a crappy depot style Wagner POS then you must thin the paint, and water ruins paint, no more then a pint of water per gallon of paint or it starts to break it down, and you will need more then that to use a cheep-o cup gun style, make sure to use the below listed "floetrol" even in a good HVLP
I myself would go with a good industrial alkyd paint ( I really love the D.T.M. coatings - Direct to metal) they will self pime to metal and work great on wood also, and they flow like no body's business using a brush. But if you are not inclined to using a solvent based paint you can just use a good 100% acrylic exterior house paint from any standard "paint" store (kelly moore, sherwin williams, devoe, yadda yadda yadda) then look for a product from the paint store called "Floetrol" made by the "Flood Company" it is a latex paint conditioner additive that slows the drying process of water based paints to give it more working and flow out time, what you want to do is get the paint and floetrol mixed up and ready to go, then get the door off and put in a nice cool (out of the sun) place, the best way to do a door by hand is to get a nice lint free smooth surface roller skin, "like a 1/4" to a 3/8 nap" (don't go cheap - spend a few bucks for a good one), roll out the door quickly then use a "GOOD" Polyester brush (I Love my - Purdy XL - Pip 3-1/2") - (make sure to rinse the brush and spin it out, letting it stay just slightly damp before using it, this helps with initial flow out as well as wetting the bristles to not just dry suck in the paint right off the bat) and lay off the paint that you just rolled out on the door, if there are textures in the door paint all them first with the brush only, then face off all the flat areas with a good quick roller and brush layoff, and plan on two coates, at least 24 hours apart. remember about "Thermal Plastic Adhesion" though, thats when you coat both the door & frame with latex coatings they will create heat when open and shutting if/where the two touch causing a "stick" that is another good reason to use alkyd or other solvent coating on the door if you have a surface touching problem, ----- This is all assuming you have a good / descent brushing ability - if so it all comes down to what you are willing to spend on materials = good quality paint, ((&)) good quality tools, cheap crap disposable rollers and brushes wont get the job done right
EDIT
forgot to mention, don't forget to coat the top and bottom edges (if its a wood door - metal can rust but thats about it, and fiberglass should already be coated) it will wick moisture in there and allow it to slowly ruin the door from the inside out, no paint can stop the evaporation process of moisture wanting to come out through the coating being drawn to the sunny warmth - need to stop it from getting there in the first place
another way, though I dont like mentioning it much (because a lot of people have a hard time using one right) its a "Roller Lite" (mini) roller frame and covers, the foam 4" or 6" ones will also roll out a door nice with floetrol if you use it properly, DO NOT PUSH (only slight pressure needed) on them when rolling, it will cause air bubbles from the foam material to come out in the paint film that you will want to shoot me for even mentioning it, just nice light easy rolling pressure - pretty much just using the weight of the roller to do it's thing, and whenever rolling anything always keep just "slightly" more pressure on the side of the roller that is the way you are rolling, I/E if you start at the right side of a surface and roll up and down moving towards the left - keep a little more pressure on the left edge of the roller frame so it takes just a touch of the pressure off the right side (the side you are moving away from) so as to "feather" off the edge your are moving away from
Another thing to keep in mind about the paint is that even with fresh "new" paint it can have skins in it from the start, when the store mixes it, it can break up the skins into tiny little slivers, and even if it doesn't have any from the start, it can get some in the bucket after only a short time opened and used. The best way to do a smooth finish is to Always strain the paint before use (after all mixing of paint and floetrol-water whatever) strain right when your ready to start painting it, a 5 gallon strainer bag in a pail works great, tape the strainer around 1/3rd of the bucket so that you can pour the paint into the bag, while leaving the other 2/3rds of the bucket opened to work out of, the paint will slowly strain through the strainer bag into the area of the bucket you are working out of, that way you have a constant straining of the paint without having to hold the bag and let the paint strain out every time you need to add more, and if/when you need to take a break, dampen a towel/shirt whatever and lay it over the bucket top before laying the lid on it, it will help keep the humidity high inside the bucket stopping/slowing it from wanting to skin over while you take a break
Just tell me to STFU !! if you want :P I am a F-ing major stickler when it comes to paint coatings and proper surface preparation and coatings application. Most painters hate me because I show them all the wrong crap they are doing and they don't want to be called on it, (to many years working for several coatings manufacturers doing job site inspections as to why a job would fail -Not Once in 35 years because of the coatings - always because of improper prep and usage) and most regular people just simply don't care as long as it "looks" good when it's finished, and then it's forgotten until it needs to be redone
Whatever I do I want to make it last and look great. I would have no problem painting it by hand myself if it wasn't for being afraid of heights and some areas are like 3 stories.
I have a Graco Pro 210 ES, but I had to paint my house by hand, because my son is supposedly painting my other house. I say supposedly, because I'm not seeing any progress on it.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
The most common reason is that it gets moisture in the siding and when the weather warms up to an evaporation point the moisture wants to get out and "go to the light" so to speak, there is NO paint that can stop it from happening, good acrylic house paints act like a "shrink wrap" that also adheres/bites to the surface, and instead if just cracking or peeling outright will get "pulled" away from the surface it's painted on making the bubble, and eventually will break as the paint looses it's flexibility over time.
Even the best 100% acrylic house paint though they have good flexibility to "move" with the surface (any surface even metal will move - expand and contract - in any 24 hour period that has a temperature change of 50 degrees or more - every day here) and over time it just starts to loose that flexibility, the better the coating the longer and more it can move with the surface depending on the chemical make up, 100% acrylic is a good start and the higher the volume solids % also (100% Acrylic is a bit of a misnomer term, the paint is not 100% acrylic material - that term just means that the amount of acrylic they add to the chemical mix of the paint, be it one drop or 20 ounces per gallon is 100% pure acrylic additive)
The other main reason for bubbling is that the surface has a contaminate on it that doesn't allow the coating to adhere in the first place, and as stated with moisture, the paint "bridges" the contaminated area to keep a solid film surface, and since it isn't "stuck" to it makes the bubble.
The contaminate can be as simple as a little dirt, pre-primed products that the primer has failed and started to chalk - try to paint a used schools chalk board, without proper preparation it wont work (remember primer is only good for around 60 days from the application date, before it starts to break down if not coated) and anything in between that can stop the adhesion process, I've seen many things cause this, even a job where the owner parked his car next to the house and just 4 days of the exhaust hitting the siding after it was cleaned and primed it was enough to stop the finish coating from sticking to that area, also have seen many jobs that have failure areas (albeit small areas-but those can turn into large ones over time) where the builder used a keil to mark out something, to even chalk residue left from a cutting/nailing chalk-line mark, from bird crap to areas around the BBQ etc etc etc, The thing to know about any area you find like that is DON'T do what most pro's do and just sand it off, that will not only spread the contaminate around the area but also grind it in, instead use a good cleaner scrubbing solution - I like powdered T.S.P. - 1 lb per 5 gallons of water, use a good stiff bristle scrub brush, then rinse off 2-3 times with fresh water to remove the T.S.P's cleaner film (and where rubber gloves, T.S.P can not only bother people with sensitive skin quickly, but over prolonged overexposure cause deterioration of the bones density), if it is a harsh chemical contaminate say like a motor oil, solidified grease, break fluid, even just wax or crayon etc etc - use lacquer thinner or M.E.K. (NOT paint thinner, it is an oily product itself and is a contaminate issue also) it my take a few scrubbing to remove but always remember to wash it down after with fresh clean water, and also any areas that you might have to sand down for what ever reason, wash off the sanding dust residue
Also if painting when it's to hot/windy outside the paint surface film can dry out way to fast and not allow it the proper time for the evaporation process, causing the liquid part to be "trapped" under the top skin of dried paint, best is right at 70 degrees and not windy, no less then around 60 (as the night can get below freezing while the paint is still drying out and be wet under the dry surface film and freeze the paint from inside - some companies offer a paint/additive to get you down to 45 if you must), and no more then 80-85 as any hotter just bakes the surface film of the paint as well as possibly cooking the siding to much that it can suck out the moisture of the paint as soon as you apply it denying the curing process
2nd about the siding, based off your description it sounds like a TruWood or Smartside type of material, that is a particle board/fiber board/press board type of system where the main structure of the item is a mulch of some type (usually looks like a kind of hardened cardboard mush) molded into a form needed and wrapped with a type of laminate style sticker that has a texture to resemble wood
(again only based off your description you will need to check it to be sure) if that is true then simply doing a good paint sprayer finish is fine unless there are damaged areas to the membrane sticker those should be primed and back rolled/back brushed
3rd As far as the color fade, well that has a few reasons,
First and foremost of them is the finish color, brighter colors - especially Red's, Yellow's, Green's, and Blue's just fade fast, the pigments of these just dont hold up to the sun baking into them and can fade as fast as a few months, (all paint fades even after just one year you will not find a paint that will touch-up without noticing a bit of change, especially on the sunny side, even your interior walls) but brighter colors do it much faster and extreme the brighter the finish color the clearer the starting base (meaning it has less and less Titanium Dioxide Ti02 in it, thats the meat and potato's of your paint pigment system whereas red's and yellows (not to be confused with red oxide & yellow oxide) are the worst for transparency and color retention (reason why your daughters Ballerina Pink, or Daisy Yellow room took 5 coats to cover properly lol), light to med/light earth tones hold up best due to starting out with a heavy Ti02 base and adding great covering and hiding pigments like Ti02 = white (obviously), low amounts of red-yellow oxide, umber (one of the best ), and lamp black, thalo blue and green are so so, but not as good as the others
for a tie on 2nd and 3rd place for fade is ...
1-paint quality cheaper paints use lesser quality materials and have less volume solids to protect fading (and other issues) also know that professional paint companys have a Contractor label paint that is not the good stuff!, it is a middle of the road paint (most contractors try to sell it as a premium product they use for you, when in reality it is mid grade that they get a great price break on example, I can buy a gallon of Kelly Moore/Sherwin Williams/Benjamin Moore Contractor Grade paint right at 14-18 bucks a gallon (even less if I commit to buy certain amounts of gallons during the year) and if you walk in to get the same it will be around 28-32 bucks, and contractors bill you for your price on it even though they pay about half what you do
And 2-the painter doing the job, two coats is always recommended EVEN with paints that claim one coat coverage !!!, and most people (Yes even most professional contractors) will not apply the paint at the right mill thickness let alone two coats, most standard house paint should go on at approx 6-8 mills wet (check the paint manufacturers recommended thickness), will be different on the dry film mill thickness depending on the paints volume solids, if the paint is a 50% volume solid and you apply it at 8 mills wet, it will cure out at 4 mills etc etc, and when spraying, wont coat all areas good, especially the hard to reach areas that most people cant/wont go up to, to check, and then when rolling most people tend to Dry Roll thats when you dont keep the roller wet enough or keep trying to roll out a dry roller longer, all it does is give a covered look to the paint without any real thickness to it, it also takes off the paint that was thicker when rolling back over that area again. And remember most standard house paints should be applied between 300 to 400 square feet per gallon per coat no more (again check with the paint you use to see there recommended coverage)
as to the longevity it should be between 15-20 years on average for a properly prepaired job using good paint, depending on conditions if you live in a desert area that is always windy well your house is getting sandblasted daily and it wont last as long as it should, also remember to (clean-prime-caulk-prime-finish coat-finish coat) any areas that need caulked that are in bad shape in that order, most people just scrape and caulk then finish coat, the caulking needs a good solid primed surface to adhere to and a good primer coating over it to protect it, caulk shrinks quickly over time and unless using pure silicone caulk must be painted over within a day (note - paint wont stick to pure silicone lol) and don't forget (like most contractors-they don't forget, they just don't do it) to get down on your knees and brush the bottom edge of the siding where it hangs over the footing/foundation/block, water LOVES to wick up the bottom edge of your siding (and trim boards) and work it's way up into it until it's time to evaporate out, as well as leaving out the caulk process and painting of the upper window trim boards (you would be surprised just how many houses I've repainted over the years that the top window trim wasn't ever painted let alone caulked
OK enough rambling :P hope your not sick of me by now