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Any painters here?

jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hey fellas been super busy lately with the kids and projects and work. Installed a new back door and screen door. Wanted a nice finish on the door so I went with Glidden Gel Flow paint that is supposed to dry smooth with no brush marks. Painted the door frame and was pretty excited to see it worked as advertised. Took the door down and painted in yesterday and when you paint a larger surface the stuff is absolutely worthless.

Spent all day scrapping and sanding the gel paint off. Looks like crap just fyi but I think with some stripper and sanding it will be fine. Anyways I have decided to paint it the old fashion way with regular latex paint. I will be using a high gloss paint and I am trying to figure on what the best paint sprayer would be without a crazy price tag. These Wagner 590 and 890 sprayers look great but reviews are either great or horrible with not much in between. The videos look sweet but I have no experience with spraying paint. I have plywood to test on but I want some advice from guys who may have first hand experience with an affordable painter.

Let me know what you would recommend and like I said I want it to be able to spray a thicker paint. Thanks

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    EulogyEulogy Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I might take a look at renting a professional grade paint sprayer. I know it would be nice to own one, but getting a high quality one might make the process easier and they can be rented at Home Depot.
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    EchambersEchambers Posts: 4,178 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eulogy:
    I might take a look at renting a professional grade paint sprayer. I know it would be nice to own one, but getting a high quality one might make the process easier and they can be rented at Home Depot.
    I second that, but seriously if all you are doing is a door you might be better off just hiring someone to do it. Their big labour will be cleaning their paint equipment but it will only take them ten minutes to do a door if you already have it taped.
    -- "There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go poke it with a stick."
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    onestrangeoneonestrangeone Posts: 2,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you can find a place that rents them check out the HVLP setups, I use these for cabinet work, you need to thin and strain the latex but it is possible to get an automotive quality finish with some practice. it will take longer to clean the gun than to paint one door though. If you have a compressor that will maintain 5.5 to 7 CFM at 40-50 PSI you can buy a cup gun that will shoot latex and do a decent job for less than $100. A good quality brush (Purdy) is about $20-25. A good brush and a lot of practice will produce a smooth finish. Have you thought about using Oil-base there are additives that will help it "lay down' once again the right brush is the Key.
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    First_WarriorFirst_Warrior Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a HVLP system and I regularly shoot lacquer. Don't shoot paint though. A good brush will do the job on a large flat surface with paint. Two or three thin coats are better than one heavy coat. Use a sanding block with 220 between coats.
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    Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've done a lot of painting as side jobs and supplemental income. Some thoughts:
    A cheap brush will give a crappy result.
    Technique matters, direction and how you pull out of your stroke, etc. Always brush with the grain.
    Cheap paint will give a crappy result. Yours was a well known name, I'm not familiar with "gel" paint. Personally I like Porter, Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, and Valspar. Pretty much in that order.
    As FW said, thin coats are always better. You can expect it to look cheap and chintzy if you try and cover with just one coat.
    Surface preparation is key. Paint cannot make an unfinished surface look finished.

    Good luck.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
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    jd50aejd50ae Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now I remember, its a paint brush.....been using it for dusting,
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    honorknight7honorknight7 Posts: 523
    Retired painting contractor. I did a lot of residential painting, specialized in heavy commercial and industrial, lacquers and specialty coatings also
    1st off a door only takes a pint of paint to cover it, a quart will have some left over even after 2 full coat's, and a pro paint sprayer will take 2 to 3 qts (1/2 to 3/4 gallon) just to fill the lines and prime the machine, a good alkyd/solvent paint is awesome both brushing and using an HVLP - I have a CS9100 I absolutely LOVE but it was 900.00, if you use a crappy depot style Wagner POS then you must thin the paint, and water ruins paint, no more then a pint of water per gallon of paint or it starts to break it down, and you will need more then that to use a cheep-o cup gun style, make sure to use the below listed "floetrol" even in a good HVLP
    I myself would go with a good industrial alkyd paint ( I really love the D.T.M. coatings - Direct to metal) they will self pime to metal and work great on wood also, and they flow like no body's business using a brush. But if you are not inclined to using a solvent based paint you can just use a good 100% acrylic exterior house paint from any standard "paint" store (kelly moore, sherwin williams, devoe, yadda yadda yadda) then look for a product from the paint store called "Floetrol" made by the "Flood Company" it is a latex paint conditioner additive that slows the drying process of water based paints to give it more working and flow out time, what you want to do is get the paint and floetrol mixed up and ready to go, then get the door off and put in a nice cool (out of the sun) place, the best way to do a door by hand is to get a nice lint free smooth surface roller skin, "like a 1/4" to a 3/8 nap" (don't go cheap - spend a few bucks for a good one), roll out the door quickly then use a "GOOD" Polyester brush (I Love my - Purdy XL - Pip 3-1/2") - (make sure to rinse the brush and spin it out, letting it stay just slightly damp before using it, this helps with initial flow out as well as wetting the bristles to not just dry suck in the paint right off the bat) and lay off the paint that you just rolled out on the door, if there are textures in the door paint all them first with the brush only, then face off all the flat areas with a good quick roller and brush layoff, and plan on two coates, at least 24 hours apart. remember about "Thermal Plastic Adhesion" though, thats when you coat both the door & frame with latex coatings they will create heat when open and shutting if/where the two touch causing a "stick" that is another good reason to use alkyd or other solvent coating on the door if you have a surface touching problem, ----- This is all assuming you have a good / descent brushing ability - if so it all comes down to what you are willing to spend on materials = good quality paint, ((&)) good quality tools, cheap crap disposable rollers and brushes wont get the job done right

    EDIT
    forgot to mention, don't forget to coat the top and bottom edges (if its a wood door - metal can rust but thats about it, and fiberglass should already be coated) it will wick moisture in there and allow it to slowly ruin the door from the inside out, no paint can stop the evaporation process of moisture wanting to come out through the coating being drawn to the sunny warmth - need to stop it from getting there in the first place

    another way, though I dont like mentioning it much (because a lot of people have a hard time using one right) its a "Roller Lite" (mini) roller frame and covers, the foam 4" or 6" ones will also roll out a door nice with floetrol if you use it properly, DO NOT PUSH (only slight pressure needed) on them when rolling, it will cause air bubbles from the foam material to come out in the paint film that you will want to shoot me for even mentioning it, just nice light easy rolling pressure - pretty much just using the weight of the roller to do it's thing, and whenever rolling anything always keep just "slightly" more pressure on the side of the roller that is the way you are rolling, I/E if you start at the right side of a surface and roll up and down moving towards the left - keep a little more pressure on the left edge of the roller frame so it takes just a touch of the pressure off the right side (the side you are moving away from) so as to "feather" off the edge your are moving away from
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks fellas. It is a metal door with a window. I am open to other paints. I actually used Floetrol on my doors and trim on the basement finish I did. It turned out pretty nice but I maybe should have used a bit more. I had trouble with one door. The roller ended up getting lint and crap all over on the second coat and it was a high end Purdy roller. Not sure what I should have done different. I may just go that route again on this door. I guess a good primer is in order first? Seems the factory primer isn't that great since I easily scrapped most of that gel paint right off.
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    honorknight7honorknight7 Posts: 523
    Usually I would say to make sure you wash out any roller skin before you use it, but if it worked good on a first coat, then falls apart on a second or more coat's, it is usually because it is starting to fall apart - this usually happen if its not washed out and left to dry out after every use. Don't know if you did this or not but a lot of people will just leave the roller wet and wrapped in plastic or just left on the paint bucket, this can allow a roller skin to start to deteriorate - the longer the wait the worse it can fall apart, the Purdy (White Dove) is a good standard cover if your not willing to fork out 10-15 bucks on a good lambskin (that you wash out and can use many many times) - all I will use. Also as far as primer/pre primed items, companies that pre prime items bid out for there primer materials to the lowest bidder, and you don't always get good primer (or coating process) because of that, AND a primer coating is basically a double tooth coating, it "bites" to the surface its applied to and also has a "tooth" to bite to a finish coat that will be applied to it, the problem with any pre primed item is that a primer coating is only good for 30-60 days tops before the "tooth" starts to fail, at this point it will need to be lightly sanded to remove the old failed/chalked tooth, cleaned and a fresh coat of primer reapplied, and though pre primed items do help to keep the item in good selling shape, you never know just how long ago it was originally primed to begin with-usually way more then 60 days. Also I mentioned the solvent based D.T.M. well Benjamin Moore paints has a great Latex D.T.M. also (Benjamin Moore M29 (((semi-gloss, believe the gloss is M28)))Latex D.T.M. - Direct to Metal) It is a little bit different to work with then standard latex house paint as it seems like its a little thinner viscosity as well as seeming to be metallic or pearlescent in appearance while its "wet" and make you think its totally the wrong color while painting with it, just make sure they dry a spot on the lid for you at the paint store and know that your job will turn out the same color when dried, you can also add the floetrol to it too, and it goes on right at 6 mills wet each coat - you can ask the paint store for a mill gauge if they have them, and remember when doing paint job's, it takes 28 days for (Any/ALL) paint coatings to totally cure, the color should be good after a few hours dry time, and the sheen can (depending on weather/humidity) take up to 3-4 days to even out, and though the surface film dries first and seems good, it really is 28 days for total cure
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I washed that roller out after only 1 use. It was brand new. Let it dry over a day or two and got all sorts of junk on the door on the second coat. Paint was brand new too. Think I will look into those lamb skin rollers you mentioned.
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    honorknight7honorknight7 Posts: 523
    Sounds like you might have got a bad cover, if you bought it at the Depot or Lowe's type of shop they will return it, just tell them what happened, they will R.T.V. it back to Purdy for inventory order credit so they don't care. Lambskin covers are great, they hold a lot of product (takes a bit to fully load them when starting - a bucket and roller grid work a lot better then a tray) and self open while rolling and don't mat down giving the "dry roll" effect most other covers will do, just know their not for smooth fine finish work alone, they can do a great job on light textured surfaces and such (& textured doors), just not by themselves for smooth-glossy finishes - thats where laying off with a good brush comes in, have used that method many many times on doors and cabinets. If your not to sure about laying off with a brush (might try rolling out and laying off with the brush on something else to get practice, might take a little time learning "finesse with a brush) Purdy makes a great fine finish cover called "Parrot" but they can be pretty spendy ($18.00 to $25.00 on average - though they do make "mini roller" covers for them also, but don't know what those are going for off the top of my head atm) and are not used for anything except very smooth fine finishes so are not very versatile like the lambskins are and just laying off smooth work with a brush and some floetrol. I would probably just finesse a 6" mini roller foam cover w/ floetrol for about 5-6 bucks (two pack) instead of the Parrot unless you have a lot of smooth work to do, if I wasn't wanting to do the roll out and brush lay off method

    Another thing to keep in mind about the paint is that even with fresh "new" paint it can have skins in it from the start, when the store mixes it, it can break up the skins into tiny little slivers, and even if it doesn't have any from the start, it can get some in the bucket after only a short time opened and used. The best way to do a smooth finish is to Always strain the paint before use (after all mixing of paint and floetrol-water whatever) strain right when your ready to start painting it, a 5 gallon strainer bag in a pail works great, tape the strainer around 1/3rd of the bucket so that you can pour the paint into the bag, while leaving the other 2/3rds of the bucket opened to work out of, the paint will slowly strain through the strainer bag into the area of the bucket you are working out of, that way you have a constant straining of the paint without having to hold the bag and let the paint strain out every time you need to add more, and if/when you need to take a break, dampen a towel/shirt whatever and lay it over the bucket top before laying the lid on it, it will help keep the humidity high inside the bucket stopping/slowing it from wanting to skin over while you take a break
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My neighbor up the street painted his entire 2 story house by himself in 2 days. He was finishing the back today so I stopped to talk to him. He has an $1800 sprayer and I watched him quickly finish a bunch of painting very quickly. He is going to come by tomorrow and look at my door. Most likely I am going to remove my garage to house door, front door, and rear door and use his sprayer to prime and paint the rear and paint the other 2 the same. Better then the cheap handheld Wagners and I will get the nice look I want. Kind of excited because I may use his sprayer to paint my house in the spring and save some serious cash. Not sure what kind of sprayer he has but it looked like a nice set up. I was thinking he spent $800 or $900 but he invested $1800 back when he painted houses for a living. Has me also thinking about painting the interior of my house this way.
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    honorknight7honorknight7 Posts: 523
    what type of siding do you have ? is it a rough type siding T1-11 or similar plywood type board/stucco/masonry or anything thats not a smooth non porous surface ? if so spraying is OK, but it needs to be "back rolled" to massage the paint into the rougher surface just spraying it alone, is like using hair spray on your head, it coat's the hair (siding surface fibers), but the hairspray doesn't get past all the hair to coat the scalp, same with spraying only on a porous surface will look great for a while, but over time moisture creeps in and wreaks havoc, when spraying, coat the surface just a "little" heavier then normal, and have someone with a 5 gal. bucket with a bit of paint in it to keep their roller wet to follow you around while spraying it to "back roll" right behind you

    Just tell me to STFU !! if you want :P I am a F-ing major stickler when it comes to paint coatings and proper surface preparation and coatings application. Most painters hate me because I show them all the wrong crap they are doing and they don't want to be called on it, (to many years working for several coatings manufacturers doing job site inspections as to why a job would fail -Not Once in 35 years because of the coatings - always because of improper prep and usage) and most regular people just simply don't care as long as it "looks" good when it's finished, and then it's forgotten until it needs to be redone
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure what it is. Some time of slightly textured board. I think to simulate real wood. I appreciate the advice. I am very very detail driven and things must be perfect or my OCD will kick in. We just bought our house almost 8 years ago and I can see some spots up high they just missed. The paint is also faded in areas. Hard to explain that but maybe you understand. It looked great for a few years but now there are areas that don't match others. I always figured house paint was supposed to last 20 to 30 years so this kind of ticks me off they did such a craptastic job. I have repainted my front porch like 5 times now since the paint bubbles up and peals. I am now in the process of scrapping the paint off this time instead of painting over it. Some areas I can see they used primer but a majority of it looks like they missed it completely.

    Whatever I do I want to make it last and look great. I would have no problem painting it by hand myself if it wasn't for being afraid of heights and some areas are like 3 stories.
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    0patience0patience Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jsnake:
    Not sure what it is. Some time of slightly textured board. I think to simulate real wood. I appreciate the advice. I am very very detail driven and things must be perfect or my OCD will kick in. We just bought our house almost 8 years ago and I can see some spots up high they just missed. The paint is also faded in areas. Hard to explain that but maybe you understand. It looked great for a few years but now there are areas that don't match others. I always figured house paint was supposed to last 20 to 30 years so this kind of ticks me off they did such a craptastic job. I have repainted my front porch like 5 times now since the paint bubbles up and peals. I am now in the process of scrapping the paint off this time instead of painting over it. Some areas I can see they used primer but a majority of it looks like they missed it completely.

    Whatever I do I want to make it last and look great. I would have no problem painting it by hand myself if it wasn't for being afraid of heights and some areas are like 3 stories.
    Is it wood or concrete type boards? Possibly Hardi-board? I've spent the last week painting my house.
    I have a Graco Pro 210 ES, but I had to paint my house by hand, because my son is supposedly painting my other house. I say supposedly, because I'm not seeing any progress on it.
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Definitely wood. Common builders grade stuff used here in KC for 20 or 30 years. Backside looks like plywood
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    honorknight7honorknight7 Posts: 523
    1st about the "bubbling and pealing" paint. That happens for a couple of reasons

    The most common reason is that it gets moisture in the siding and when the weather warms up to an evaporation point the moisture wants to get out and "go to the light" so to speak, there is NO paint that can stop it from happening, good acrylic house paints act like a "shrink wrap" that also adheres/bites to the surface, and instead if just cracking or peeling outright will get "pulled" away from the surface it's painted on making the bubble, and eventually will break as the paint looses it's flexibility over time.
    Even the best 100% acrylic house paint though they have good flexibility to "move" with the surface (any surface even metal will move - expand and contract - in any 24 hour period that has a temperature change of 50 degrees or more - every day here) and over time it just starts to loose that flexibility, the better the coating the longer and more it can move with the surface depending on the chemical make up, 100% acrylic is a good start and the higher the volume solids % also (100% Acrylic is a bit of a misnomer term, the paint is not 100% acrylic material - that term just means that the amount of acrylic they add to the chemical mix of the paint, be it one drop or 20 ounces per gallon is 100% pure acrylic additive)
    The other main reason for bubbling is that the surface has a contaminate on it that doesn't allow the coating to adhere in the first place, and as stated with moisture, the paint "bridges" the contaminated area to keep a solid film surface, and since it isn't "stuck" to it makes the bubble.
    The contaminate can be as simple as a little dirt, pre-primed products that the primer has failed and started to chalk - try to paint a used schools chalk board, without proper preparation it wont work (remember primer is only good for around 60 days from the application date, before it starts to break down if not coated) and anything in between that can stop the adhesion process, I've seen many things cause this, even a job where the owner parked his car next to the house and just 4 days of the exhaust hitting the siding after it was cleaned and primed it was enough to stop the finish coating from sticking to that area, also have seen many jobs that have failure areas (albeit small areas-but those can turn into large ones over time) where the builder used a keil to mark out something, to even chalk residue left from a cutting/nailing chalk-line mark, from bird crap to areas around the BBQ etc etc etc, The thing to know about any area you find like that is DON'T do what most pro's do and just sand it off, that will not only spread the contaminate around the area but also grind it in, instead use a good cleaner scrubbing solution - I like powdered T.S.P. - 1 lb per 5 gallons of water, use a good stiff bristle scrub brush, then rinse off 2-3 times with fresh water to remove the T.S.P's cleaner film (and where rubber gloves, T.S.P can not only bother people with sensitive skin quickly, but over prolonged overexposure cause deterioration of the bones density), if it is a harsh chemical contaminate say like a motor oil, solidified grease, break fluid, even just wax or crayon etc etc - use lacquer thinner or M.E.K. (NOT paint thinner, it is an oily product itself and is a contaminate issue also) it my take a few scrubbing to remove but always remember to wash it down after with fresh clean water, and also any areas that you might have to sand down for what ever reason, wash off the sanding dust residue
    Also if painting when it's to hot/windy outside the paint surface film can dry out way to fast and not allow it the proper time for the evaporation process, causing the liquid part to be "trapped" under the top skin of dried paint, best is right at 70 degrees and not windy, no less then around 60 (as the night can get below freezing while the paint is still drying out and be wet under the dry surface film and freeze the paint from inside - some companies offer a paint/additive to get you down to 45 if you must), and no more then 80-85 as any hotter just bakes the surface film of the paint as well as possibly cooking the siding to much that it can suck out the moisture of the paint as soon as you apply it denying the curing process

    2nd about the siding, based off your description it sounds like a “TruWood” or “Smartside” type of material, that is a “particle board/fiber board/press board type of system where the main structure of the item is a mulch of some type (usually looks like a kind of hardened cardboard mush) molded into a form needed and “wrapped” with a type of laminate style “sticker” that has a texture to resemble wood
    (again only based off your description – you will need to check it to be sure) if that is true then simply doing a good paint sprayer finish is fine unless there are damaged areas to the membrane “sticker” those should be primed and back rolled/back brushed

    3rd As far as the color fade, well that has a few reasons,
    First and foremost of them is the finish color, brighter colors - especially Red's, Yellow's, Green's, and Blue's just fade fast, the pigments of these just don’t hold up to the sun baking into them and can fade as fast as a few months, (all paint fades – even after just one year you will not find a paint that will “touch-up” without noticing a bit of change, especially on the sunny side, even your interior walls) but brighter colors do it much faster and extreme – the brighter the finish color the “clearer” the starting base (meaning it has less and less Titanium Dioxide “Ti02” in it, that’s the meat and potato's of your paint pigment system whereas red's and yellows (not to be confused with red oxide & yellow oxide) are the worst for transparency and color retention (reason why your daughters “Ballerina Pink”, or “Daisy Yellow” room took 5 coats to cover properly lol), light to med/light earth tones hold up best due to starting out with a heavy Ti02 base and adding great covering and hiding pigments like Ti02 = white (obviously), low amounts of red-yellow oxide, umber (one of the best ), and lamp black, thalo blue and green are so so, but not as good as the others
    for a tie on 2nd and 3rd place for fade is ...
    1-paint quality – cheaper paints use lesser quality materials and have less volume solids to protect fading (and other issues) also know that professional paint company’s have a “Contractor” label paint – that is not the good stuff!, it is a middle of the road paint (most contractors try to sell it as a premium product they use for you, when in reality it is mid grade that they get a great price break on – example, I can buy a gallon of Kelly Moore/Sherwin Williams/Benjamin Moore “Contractor Grade” paint right at 14-18 bucks a gallon (even less if I commit to buy certain amounts of gallons during the year) and if you walk in to get the same it will be around 28-32 bucks, and contractors bill you for “your price” on it even though they pay about half what you do
    And 2-the painter doing the job, two coats is always recommended EVEN with paints that claim one coat coverage !!!, and most people (Yes even most professional contractors) will not apply the paint at the right mill thickness let alone two coats, most standard house paint should go on at approx 6-8 mills wet (check the paint manufacturers recommended thickness), will be different on the dry film mill thickness depending on the paints volume solids, if the paint is a 50% volume solid and you apply it at 8 mills wet, it will cure out at 4 mills etc etc, and when spraying, wont coat all areas good, especially the “hard to reach” areas that most people cant/wont go up to, to check, and then when rolling most people tend to “Dry Roll” that’s when you don’t keep the roller wet enough or keep trying to roll out a dry roller longer, all it does is give a “covered” look to the paint without any real thickness to it, it also takes off the paint that was thicker when rolling back over that area again. And remember “most” standard house paints should be applied between 300 to 400 square feet per gallon per coat no more (again check with the paint you use to see there recommended coverage)

    as to the longevity it should be between 15-20 years on average for a properly prepaired job using good paint, depending on conditions – if you live in a desert area that is always windy well your house is getting sandblasted daily and it wont last as long as it should, also remember to (clean-prime-caulk-prime-finish coat-finish coat) any areas that need caulked that are in bad shape in that order, most people just scrape and caulk then finish coat, the caulking needs a good solid primed surface to adhere to and a good primer coating over it to protect it, caulk shrinks quickly over time and unless using pure silicone caulk must be painted over within a day (note - paint wont stick to pure silicone lol) and don't forget (like most contractors-they don't forget, they just don't do it) to get down on your knees and brush the bottom edge of the siding where it hangs over the footing/foundation/block, water LOVES to wick up the bottom edge of your siding (and trim boards) and work it's way up into it until it's time to evaporate out, as well as leaving out the caulk process and painting of the upper window trim boards (you would be surprised just how many houses I've repainted over the years that the top window trim wasn't ever painted let alone caulked

    OK enough rambling :P hope your not sick of me by now
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I appreciate you taking the time to give me all that info. Very good info. House painting will be next spring and doors soon. I'll try to post some pics.
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