Is there something I dont understand about flavor profiles?

JohanTheMighty

I know, long title, but this has been bugging me... I smoked a Gurkha Warlord tonight; a stick described as "full flavored" and one which I was warned was not for new cigar smokers like myself (I've only been smoking them for about 2 months) because it could be so overwhelming for the palate. Anyway, I really liked the flavor of the cigar, it reminded me of the Shaggy, except that the intensity of the flavor was much much lighter. In fact, I would say that the Warlord was essentially a "Shaggy Ultra Light". I'm glad that I paired it with water instead of a beer because there was so little intensity to the flavor that anything else would have over powered the cigar.

So, what am I missing here? The construction of the stick was solid, there were no cracks or holes, other than the one I made with my cutter, so smoke wasn't escaping prior to reaching my palate. I was expecting thick, flavorful smoke, and what I got for 3/4 of the cigar was light wisps of smoke instead. Have I misinterpreted what "full flavored" means as it relates to cigars? Does it refer more to complexity of the flavor as opposed to intensity?

Any insights would be appreciated. I want to make sure I have a better understanding of what terms like "full flavored" mean so I don't make the mistake of purchasing "Ultra Light" cigars like this again.

Thank you for your time.

kuzi16

Well... it was a Gurkha.
that may be your problem. They are inconsistent enough to explain this situation.

beyond that a palate is a very personal and widely variable thing. Not only on a person to person basis, but also on a situation to situation basis for the same person.

many things can effect your palate: what you are currently eating/drinking. What you previously ate/drank. The pH of your mouth. Your mood. The list could go on and on.

jus remember that only you can decide what cigars are good and what cigars are bad. Don't let others influence you.

Puff_Dougie

Agree totally with Kuzi. I've smoked some sticks that were supposed to be "full bodied" that I thought were extremely mild. I've smoked some "medium bodied" cigars that knocked me on my butt. Lots of variables involved. The most important rule is this:

Never use Gurkha as a standard for anything. :^)

Seriously, though... Keep trying sticks and you will narrow down your likes/dislikes. Try different vitolas as well as different wrappers and fillers too. It's amazing how flavor profiles can be effected by the shape of the cigar or the ring guage. And the actual most important rule is:

Have Fun!!

If you are up for a trade, I'd be glad to put together a sampler of some things you might enjoy. PM your addy if you're interested.

jd50ae

Puff_Dougie:

The most important rule is this:

Never use Gurkha as a standard for anything. :^)

AMEN to that.

0patience

kuzi16:

Well... it was a Gurkha.
that may be your problem. They are inconsistent enough to explain this situation.

beyond that a palate is a very personal and widely variable thing. Not only on a person to person basis, but also on a situation to situation basis for the same person.

many things can effect your palate: what you are currently eating/drinking. What you previously ate/drank. The pH of your mouth. Your mood. The list could go on and on.

jus remember that only you can decide what cigars are good and what cigars are bad. Don't let others influence you.

What he said.

Something that you can try, that might help you understand.
Find a few cigars, like Diesel Hair of the Dog, Torano Noventa and Fuente Hemingway Short Story.
Smoke one the first day, another the second day and the last one on the third day.
Take notes on how they taste to you.
Then compare them. The Diesel, Noventa and Hemingway are completely different levels of the flavour spectrum, so it should give you a relatively close idea.
But as Kuzi stated, there are so many other variables. The biggest variable is you.
There are cigars I like a lot, that others can't stand and visa versa.

Ken_Light

All of these general principles are spot on. One more though: flavor is in the smoke. Sounds like you had a lousy draw (not surprising, see above about Gurkha) and thus had wispy limited smoke output. A poker or some such might have fixed that, but what's burnt is burnt. I'd say try another of the same cigar and it'll likely have a better draw and you'll be able to tell, but...it's a Gurkha so I wouldn't bet on the next being better. Another good general principle, though: don't judge a blend, even a vitola of a blend, by one stick, both for good and for bad. Sometimes the right situation turns a mediocre stick great and you don't want to waste money on a box. Sometimes a dud or bad set of circumstances make you not like something you normally would. Either way, trying a second stick could change everything for you.

JohanTheMighty

I really appreciate y'alls input. I think I got a bad draw, maybe. Even though I see a lot of Gurkha hate, not just here but everywhere, I've actually thoroughly enjoyed each one I've smoked... except for the Blade, but the Blade was the first real cigar I've ever smoked, so it might require a second try. I actually have tried several cigars, but I was confused with this one because I was given the whole, "not for newbs" and "this is an intense cigar" warning before I tried it and it lacked so much. Again though, im thinking that it was a bad draw.

I don't understand the whole "not for newbs" concept either, BTW. The second cigar I ever smoked was the Gurkha Centurian Perfecto, and I was given the same speech, but being the loose canon that I am I smoked it anyway and absolutely loved it... which I suspect won't bode well amongst the Gurkha hate, but dammit, I liked it!

I digress though; why the whole "Not for newbs" bit? I'm almost tempted to try everything I've been told I'm too new at this for because I've really liked what I've smoked anyway, despite that warning.

0patience

JohanTheMighty:

I really appreciate y'alls input. I think I got a bad draw, maybe. Even though I see a lot of Gurkha hate, not just here but everywhere, I've actually thoroughly enjoyed each one I've smoked... except for the Blade, but the Blade was the first real cigar I've ever smoked, so it might require a second try. I actually have tried several cigars, but I was confused with this one because I was given the whole, "not for newbs" and "this is an intense cigar" warning before I tried it and it lacked so much. Again though, im thinking that it was a bad draw. I don't understand the whole "not for newbs" concept either, BTW. The second cigar I ever smoked was the Gurkha Centurian Perfecto, and I was given the same speech, but being the loose canon that I am I smoked it anyway and absolutely loved it... which I suspect won't bode well amongst the Gurkha hate, but dammit, I liked it! I digress though; why the whole "Not for newbs" bit? I'm almost tempted to try everything I've been told I'm too new at this for because I've really liked what I've smoked anyway, despite that warning.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the "too new" thing. Smoke what you want.
The only thing I will say in that regard is being new to cigars, your tastes will change over time.
Something you liked today may not be to your liking 6 months from now, which is why I recommend to newer guys to sample a lot of different cigars.
Once you find the type of cigars you like, then go for the boxes or 10 packs.
If you are comfortable with your likes, then go for what you want.
And if you smoke a cigar, like the one you discussed, that is tight and have more of them, let the others rest and try again later.

It might be that they were too green/fresh or the humidity in them was a little high.
Letting them rest may change that.
I've gotten several cigars that as soon as I got them, the first one was pretty tight. Let them sit for a week or so in the humi made them just right.
But that's just my opinion.

JohanTheMighty

I can understand and agree with that. I have been trying many different kinds/brands, and I have a friend I trade off sticks with if I find something not to my liking, which thus far has been the Blade only. Lots of good advice and points to consider though, so thanks a lot, everyone. I appreciate your time on this.

Ken_Light

I don't think many people hate on Gurkha's blends, it's their quality control that gets the hate, especially at the price point. I really like the Centurion, but I don't buy them because if I factor in that 25% or so won't burn well, they're not worth the price (and frustration) even on sale.

As for the 'not for noobs' thing, I think it's typically a nicotine level thing, not a flavor thing. No one wants to see the new guy get green-gilled and never want to smoke again. Unfortunately for some that means pushing new smokers to milder cigars, which often have mild flavor profiles to go with them that only a more seasoned smoker would really appreciate. So, in the end, smoke what you want. But also stop if it's making your head spin.

Lee.mcglynn

I agree with most that is said already. For me when people say I'm new to cigars this has nothing to do with anything but is your body use to nicotine! If you smoke a pipe or cigarretes and or chew or dip then hey you'll be ok...a lot of people don't realize this! But when said they don't want you to turn green this is very true! I've seen it and it's not pretty! Even some long time smokers get bent over by certain cigars on empty stomachs. Try what you want but beware of ultra strong cigars...and never place gurhka as a standard unless it's the standard of poo

wahooschock

Lee.mcglynn:

I agree with most that is said already. For me when people say I'm new to cigars this has nothing to do with anything but is your body use to nicotine! If you smoke a pipe or cigarretes and or chew or dip then hey you'll be ok...a lot of people don't realize this! But when said they don't want you to turn green this is very true! I've seen it and it's not pretty! Even some long time smokers get bent over by certain cigars on empty stomachs. Try what you want but beware of ultra strong cigars...and never place gurhka as a standard unless it's the standard of poo

+1

youngryan216

When I first started smoking, I wouldn't touch a maduro. I thought, "If brown is strong, darker brown must be stronger." Boy, was I ever wrong.

The thick mouthfeel and sweetness that a maduro gives is its main contribution to body, imo, and many dark sticks I have had have been very easy on my palate. I only wish I hadn't smoked with my eyes for so long!

kuzi16

youngryan216:

When I first started smoking, I wouldn't touch a maduro. I thought, "If brown is strong, darker brown must be stronger." Boy, was I ever wrong.

The thick mouthfeel and sweetness that a maduro gives is its main contribution to body, imo, and many dark sticks I have had have been very easy on my palate. I only wish I hadn't smoked with my eyes for so long!

maduro tobacco has been fermented longer than lighter tobacco. by the nature of fermentation, the leaf that has undergone the maduro process will be lighter in body than the same leaf that has not. I mean, more oils have been broken down with that much fermentation. cant be stronger.

the wrapper of the cigar has less to do with the body or strength of the cigar than the filler does.

youngryan216

kuzi16:

youngryan216:

When I first started smoking, I wouldn't touch a maduro. I thought, "If brown is strong, darker brown must be stronger." Boy, was I ever wrong.

The thick mouthfeel and sweetness that a maduro gives is its main contribution to body, imo, and many dark sticks I have had have been very easy on my palate. I only wish I hadn't smoked with my eyes for so long!

maduro tobacco has been fermented longer than lighter tobacco. by the nature of fermentation, the leaf that has undergone the maduro process will be lighter in body than the same leaf that has not. I mean, more oils have been broken down with that much fermentation. cant be stronger.

the wrapper of the cigar has less to do with the body or strength of the cigar than the filler does.

Define "body" if you don't mind in your own opinion. I want to know if we have the same definition. I thought maduro was more about the sugar in the leaf being brought out through fermentation, not oil decomposition.

kuzi16

youngryan216:

kuzi16:

youngryan216:

When I first started smoking, I wouldn't touch a maduro. I thought, "If brown is strong, darker brown must be stronger." Boy, was I ever wrong.

The thick mouthfeel and sweetness that a maduro gives is its main contribution to body, imo, and many dark sticks I have had have been very easy on my palate. I only wish I hadn't smoked with my eyes for so long!

maduro tobacco has been fermented longer than lighter tobacco. by the nature of fermentation, the leaf that has undergone the maduro process will be lighter in body than the same leaf that has not. I mean, more oils have been broken down with that much fermentation. cant be stronger.

the wrapper of the cigar has less to do with the body or strength of the cigar than the filler does.

Define "body" if you don't mind in your own opinion. I want to know if we have the same definition. I thought maduro was more about the sugar in the leaf being brought out through fermentation, not oil decomposition.

body, in this instance means both mouth feel and strength. since some of the essential oils break down when fermentation occurs, the leaf has less nicotine.

any real body or strength you are getting in a maduro is mostly coming from the filler.

there is no rule saying a Maduro must be strong or not.


though fermenting a tobacco leaf to a darker color is all about bringing out/creating complex sugars for a sweeter flavor, there are absolutely secondary reactions that happen. loss of nicotine is one of them.

youngryan216

kuzi16:

youngryan216:

kuzi16:

youngryan216:

When I first started smoking, I wouldn't touch a maduro. I thought, "If brown is strong, darker brown must be stronger." Boy, was I ever wrong.

The thick mouthfeel and sweetness that a maduro gives is its main contribution to body, imo, and many dark sticks I have had have been very easy on my palate. I only wish I hadn't smoked with my eyes for so long!

maduro tobacco has been fermented longer than lighter tobacco. by the nature of fermentation, the leaf that has undergone the maduro process will be lighter in body than the same leaf that has not. I mean, more oils have been broken down with that much fermentation. cant be stronger.

the wrapper of the cigar has less to do with the body or strength of the cigar than the filler does.

Define "body" if you don't mind in your own opinion. I want to know if we have the same definition. I thought maduro was more about the sugar in the leaf being brought out through fermentation, not oil decomposition.

body, in this instance means both mouth feel and strength. since some of the essential oils break down when fermentation occurs, the leaf has less nicotine.

any real body or strength you are getting in a maduro is mostly coming from the filler.

there is no rule saying a Maduro must be strong or not.


though fermenting a tobacco leaf to a darker color is all about bringing out/creating complex sugars for a sweeter flavor, there are absolutely secondary reactions that happen. loss of nicotine is one of them.

Cool. Loss of nicotine during maduro fermentation. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for clarifying brutha