Is it possible?

Is it possible that most of the taste found in cigars are mind over matter and therefore wishful thinking, ultimately leading to tasting, different flavors? I have surmised that the taste buds actually become dead to differentiation of taste the more one smokes and hence the taste are actually created within the creative devises of our left hemisphere of the brain. Could this be the true development of the pallet, a deception of our own brains?

Just asking?

Comments

  • ShadowInTheMoonShadowInTheMoon The 8th CirclePosts: 507
    I can see where you are coming from but i have seen reviews from two, three or more people are more practically the same. I know there are people out there that can name a cigar by taste alone.
    Two people with a common goal can accomplish many things. Two people with a common enemy can accomplish even more.
  • Lee.mcglynnLee.mcglynn HahahahaaaaaPosts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭
    Everything about taste is opinion. One may taste one thing while the other tastes something different...so yes the mind has a lot to do with everything from food to cigars
    Money can't buy taste
  • timtomtimtom Posts: 40
    I too have heard of such happenings but I have to question whether or not the power of suggestion comes into play here.

    I know that people such as those who have been in the tobacco business all of their lives can distinguish where a certain tobacco came from and its true identity.

    My thought is this though:

    As novices can, even with those with extensive experience, really distinguish such taste variations as subtle as they claim, really be on target all of the time or is my original conclusion valid?
  • jgibvjgibv John G.Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if a person does not have a basic understanding of certain flavors then no they won't be able to ID those flavors in a cigar, just as they wouldn't be able to ID those same flavors in food/drink/etc.
    example: if you've never eaten (or smelled) a walnut, how would you be able to ID that flavor in a cigar, drink, food, etc.

    every person experiences taste/flavors differently and some people are considered "supertasters".
    HERE: http://www.cigar.com/cs/forums/thread/811958.aspx

    * I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *

  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are people who are professional water tasters. They can tell various minerals, pollutants, etc. with stunning accuracy, often identifying over 100 different compositional variations in water from different sources. Can I do it? No. But, long before I knew anything about finding different nuances in cigars, I noticed that I found I was tasting things like leather, cashews, chocolate, cream, oak, cedar, etc. in different cigars that I smoked. We all have different experiences and abilities in life.

    If you play a note on an instrument, I can pick up my guitar and almost always hit that exact note. How? I don't know. What I can't do is tell you if that note is a C, or an A, or what, until I look at the keyboard. But, lots of people can. I read an article once about Jimi Hendrix, stating that he "saw" musical notes as colors. I brought this to the attention of my father, a professional musician, who said "I can do that, too", much to my surprise. He then went on to tell me of an experience he'd had sitting in an orchestra pit, and someone played a note and asked: "Is that a G?",
    "No, it's an A, it's peach" said Dad
    At which point one of the women in the violin sections looked startled and asked "How'd you know it was peach?"
    It seems that she, too, had that ability. Not only that, but their colors all matched!
    (I'm saying "A" and "peach", which may not be the exact match, due to human error in memory, but the concept is the point)
    So, even though we all tend to think that our individual experience is universal, to believe that just because you are unable to taste these things that it is all just power of suggestion for the rest of us, falls a bit short of the mark.

    I hope you read through the "Developing your Palate" and other excellent threads by Kuzi and others, learn to use your nose, etc., and may be able to develop a greater appreciation. Much the way that I learn to play music, even though I don't have perfect pitch, or much talent in general. I still enjoy it, it brings me a great deal of satisfaction. But, when it comes to performing, I leave it to those who have talent. Many of whom are unable to determine what the heck I'm getting so excited about when I give them a cigar.

    To each our own.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  
  • ShadowInTheMoonShadowInTheMoon The 8th CirclePosts: 507
    Very well put Amos
    Two people with a common goal can accomplish many things. Two people with a common enemy can accomplish even more.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    timtom:
    Is it possible that most of the taste found in cigars are mind over matter and therefore wishful thinking, ultimately leading to tasting, different flavors?
    yes. that can happen.
    timtom:
    I have surmised that the taste buds actually become dead to differentiation of taste the more one smokes and hence the taste are actually created within the creative devises of our left hemisphere of the brain. Could this be the true development of the pallet, a deception of our own brains?
    that can happen. it doesnt happen to everyone. in your (up to this point) 8 posts you have only posted things about how you cannot taste the differences in cigars. please keep in mind that just because you are having a difficult time with this factor of the hobby, does not mean that everyone else has that issue as well and we are therefor making it up so we look cool.
    ShadowInTheMoon:
    I can see where you are coming from but i have seen reviews from two, three or more people are more practically the same. I know there are people out there that can name a cigar by taste alone.
    timtom:
    I too have heard of such happenings but I have to question whether or not the power of suggestion comes into play here. I know that people such as those who have been in the tobacco business all of their lives can distinguish where a certain tobacco came from and its true identity. My thought is this though: As novices can, even with those with extensive experience, really distinguish such taste variations as subtle as they claim, really be on target all of the time or is my original conclusion valid?
    i know that to some degree i can. im not perfect but i can tell you with some accuracy (maybe 75% of the time) where the tobacco in a cigar comes from by taste alone. this becomes more difficult when an increasing number of countries contribute to a cigars composition. i threw out the number 75% because of that increasing difficulty. id say im about 90% on nicaraguan puros, 95% on cuban puros, 60% on Dominican puros, 60% on honduran puros, and stabbing in the dark on any other puros.

    If more than one country is in a blend i can tell you 90% of the time if nicaraguan tobacco is in there. Other tobaccos are harder to recognize in a blend to me.

    i am 100% sure that there are other people on this forum that can make similar claims. a few names come to mind but im not going to put anyone on the spot.

    what keeps me from making claims of higher percentages is that there are so many factors that go into a cigar. the biggest one is fermentation. its amazing what chemicals are created in fermentation. whats even more amazing is how the body senses them.

    and then there is always the "taste is subjective" thing. mood, mouth ph, RH of the cigar, what you ate last, what you are drinking with the cigar, and countless other factors can influence taste. even though the same cigar can taste a bit different on different days, there are still differences from one cigar to another cigar on that same day.




    it is very easy to see differences if you smoke two different cigars either back to back or two different cigars at the same time.

    if you do back to back i would recommend an Avo Classic first, then a Camacho triple maduro. these cigars have so little in common that i would venture to say if you cant tell the difference then your taste buds are legitimately broken (if thats the case, and you still wanna smoke cigars just smoke the cheapest cigars you can find with zero burn issues.)

    if side by side i would do a Camacho Ecuador and San Lotano Habano. they have similar elements but are still different enough to pick out things that make them unique. the short time between the puffs of each cigar will keep it fresh enough that a less drastic change in flavors is needed to understand the difference. in this example, the Camacho Ecuador has a much more citrus flavor to it than the San Lotano Habano, and the San Lotano Habano will have a much more earthy/woodyspice quality to it.
  • RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    timtom:
    Is it possible that most of the taste found in cigars are mind over matter and therefore wishful thinking, ultimately leading to tasting, different flavors? I have surmised that the taste buds actually become dead to differentiation of taste the more one smokes and hence the taste are actually created within the creative devises of our left hemisphere of the brain. Could this be the true development of the pallet, a deception of our own brains? Just asking?
    No. This is not the Matrix.Or is it?
  • 0patience0patience Oregon CoastPosts: 8,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, here is something to ponder on this subject.

    There are many things that affect what you taste and how you taste. Colds, allergies, stuffed up nose, etc.
    Over smoking can also dull the taste buds.
    Using chewing tobacco or smoking cigarettes can also have a dramatic change in tastes.

    If you use seasoning spice on meat, do you taste the seasonings? If no, then you probably have dulled tastes buds.
    Do you have sinus problems? If yes, that can account for a lot of it.

    Is it only cigars that you have trouble distinguishing flavors or is there some foods that are bland to you?

    Have you ever tried a pipe with flavored tobacco or a flavored cigar? Is it the same taste?
    It shouldn't be and if it is, then you might have a taste problem and it might be something to have looked at.

    There should be a marked difference it tastes between something like a Connecticut vs Maduro wrapper or Cameroon wrapper. It should be a noticeable taste.

    Then the question of "Do all cigars SMELL the same to you?"
    They shouldn't. Just as a rose smells different than a magnolia, different tobaccos have different smells.

    There is no crisis that a good cigar can't cure.
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.

    Some k n o b blocked the word k n o b and now we can't talk about adjusting the k n o b on the radio.
  • Bob_LukenBob_Luken already sucked before joining forum,.....just sayin'.Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If someone were to have a bad lighting ritual/technique, say,... scorching the foot, is it possible for this to dull the senses? Would this practice cause cigars to taste very similar. And if someone did it habitually, then maybe everything would taste the same. Scorched. But they really wouldnt realize there was any error. Just a thought. Not really a wild guess as to your situation timtom but just something I thought I'd add to the conversation.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Bob Luken:
    If someone were to have a bad lighting ritual/technique, say,... scorching the foot, is it possible for this to dull the senses? Would this practice cause cigars to taste very similar. And if someone did it habitually, then maybe everything would taste the same. Scorched. But they really wouldnt realize there was any error. Just a thought. Not really a wild guess as to your situation timtom but just something I thought I'd add to the conversation.
    smoking too fast would extend the scorched flavors for the rest of the cigar.

    how long does it take you to smoke a toro? or a robusto?
  • Bob_LukenBob_Luken already sucked before joining forum,.....just sayin'.Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kuzi16:
    Bob Luken:
    If someone were to have a bad lighting ritual/technique, say,... scorching the foot, is it possible for this to dull the senses? Would this practice cause cigars to taste very similar. And if someone did it habitually, then maybe everything would taste the same. Scorched. But they really wouldnt realize there was any error. Just a thought. Not really a wild guess as to your situation timtom but just something I thought I'd add to the conversation.
    smoking too fast would extend the scorched flavors for the rest of the cigar.

    how long does it take you to smoke a toro? or a robusto?
    Me? I hardly ever get my stopwatch out so I don't know. But the reason it's on my mind is that I've had more access to b&ms to smoke in since I moved this past spring. So I'm actually in the company of more fellow BOTL than just the few buddies I occasionally smoked with previously. And, I'm amazed at how many guys I see just jamming those torches right up in the foot of their cigars and puff and puff and flame out. I don't know them well enough to butt in but I cringe when I see them scorching good tobacco.
  • brianetz1brianetz1 St. Louis, MOPosts: 4,135 ✭✭✭
    like i said in the non-cigar related thread. Part of this i agree with. I wonder if the reviewers that find obscure flavors like pulling toasted walnuts over a cedar flame. graham cracker with a hint of marshmallow, or comparing the sweetness to a very specific thing are over-thinking and pulling things that aren't there. The core flavors most definitely are there and can be pulled out. I could pull out pepper, sweet, leather, woody, coffee, and earth really early on when i was just smoking anything my buddies brought to the golf course.

    I'm not saying that people are making things up, but more reading into things to try and explain the flavor of a cigar and try and find a way to differentiate it from another cigar that is very similar. To me there are several cigars that i find so similar that they are almost the same cigar to me, but if you read reviews you would think they are completely different because of the off the wall things the reviewers are pulling out.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    I sat down and had a couple smokes with Henke Kelner and his son Hendrik, two blends Hendrik had made for the euro market. Within a few puffs of each cigar, the old man nailed every tobacco in the blends. It was rather fascinating and comical.

    These days nailing down factories is getting easier, let alone regions. All the Casa and Plasencia made boutiques have similar flavors. One thing is for sure, Cuban tobacco is unmistakable.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    I sat down and had a couple smokes with Henke Kelner and his son Hendrik, two blends Hendrik had made for the euro market. Within a few puffs of each cigar, the old man nailed every tobacco in the blends. It was rather fascinating and comical.

    These days nailing down factories is getting easier, let alone regions. All the Casa and Plasencia made boutiques have similar flavors. One thing is for sure, Cuban tobacco is unmistakable.
    That's all great and all but does he like Journey???? ;o)
    Awesome D!
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:

    These days nailing down factories is getting easier, let alone regions. All the Casa and Plasencia made boutiques have similar flavors. One thing is for sure, Cuban tobacco is unmistakable.
    I agree with all of this. I can identify blenders better than tobacco. But It isn't my job to understand tobacco the way some of these professionals can. I can identify an AJ blend a mile away. Same with kelner. Same with plasencia....

    it isnt that hard if you are willing to spend the time to learn it. its way more work than it sounds.

    i guess in the end the real deal is if you like a cigar or not.

    i found where my willingness to work to understand cigars ends. i did get to a point were it was more work than it was worth. there are a few guys here that are willing to work harder than i am, and i have a ton of respect for those guys. i never got into this hobby to become an insider. i just wanna enjoy. too much work at it and it becomes just that.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Bob Luken:
    Me? I hardly ever get my stopwatch out so I don't know.
    this was more of a question for timtom...
  • youngryan216youngryan216 Colorful Colorado Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭
    Get a jug of water. Light a connie. Set it aside. Light a maddie. Set it aside. Puff one for a minute and rinse your mouth thoroughly. Repeat with the other stick.

    If you can't taste the difference in two smokes that different simultaneously, you might not even have a tongue.
    ISO Ramrod and Ron Mexico
  • timtomtimtom Posts: 40
    Perhaps no one right answer can be concluded from my question though I have gathered some really useful information from what has been presented. I will in fact try the retro hale idea and determine if it helps along with the idea of two very different, or so called as the case may very well be, and cleansing the palate between inhales to see if I am truly taste bud dead. Thanks gentlemen for your great advise.

    Tim.
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    There is one right answer, and that answer is "No." These guys are just being polite. Flavor *is* technically a brain-created construct, just like color, tone, pitch, etc. etc. but they are the brain's interpretation of objective reality. So we can say that they objectively exist in reality. So taste exists, and it is generated by different molecules interacting with your taste buds in different ratios. Different tobaccos produce smoke with different molecules in different ratios, therefore taste differences exist. Period.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    I said no first.
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    Rain:
    I said no first.
    Ok fine. But you had to bring the Matrix into it. Also isn't this guy you?
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    Rain:
    I said no first.
    Ok fine. But you had to bring the Matrix into it. Also isn't this guy you?
    There is no spoon
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    Ken Light:
    Rain:
    I said no first.
    Ok fine. But you had to bring the Matrix into it. Also isn't this guy you?
    There is no spoon
    The cake is a lie
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    timtom:
    Perhaps no one right answer can be concluded from my question though I have gathered some really useful information from what has been presented. I will in fact try the retro hale idea and determine if it helps along with the idea of two very different, or so called as the case may very well be, and cleansing the palate between inhales to see if I am truly taste bud dead. Thanks gentlemen for your great advise. Tim.
    and slow down. puff a minute MAX.
    a robusto takes most people over an hour to finish.
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    You should slow down everything. If you take at least 3 hours to watch old episodes of 60 minutes, you'll find that Andy Rooney is way less harsh and more complex and sophisticated at the end.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • youngryan216youngryan216 Colorful Colorado Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    You should slow down everything. If you take at least 3 hours to watch old episodes of 60 minutes, you'll find that Andy Rooney is way less harsh and more complex and sophisticated at the end.
    ^I lol'd
    ISO Ramrod and Ron Mexico
  • CigaryCigary Posts: 630
    A question that is asked a lot esp. with those who start out with this hobby. Consider what a wine sommelier does and how they become one. In order to differentiate tastes you have to expose yourself to a cigar many times so that you have a true frame of reference and taste that goes with a particular cigar...an association. Once you have gotten yourself used to tasting things...cigars/wine/coffee you will adapt or taste the finer variations to them only because you have history with the product and you have fine tuned your sense of taste to them. This is how sommeliers and coffee experts refine their tastes and are able to distinguish certain flavors because they are exposed to them time and time again. What you said about the senses working against each other is not true at all...it's a combination of both of those senses working in tandem where the synapse in the brain then cements that acclimation of taste to the brain. You're not changing the taste...you're actually training your senses to be more observant in this regard. If it is a deception then you could take the worst dog rocket ever made and make yourself think you're smoking an Opus....if you can do that then there is a place in the business for you to make a ton of money.
  • Retircs1Retircs1 California Posts: 453
    timtom:
    Is it possible that most of the taste found in cigars are mind over matter and therefore wishful thinking, ultimately leading to tasting, different flavors? I have surmised that the taste buds actually become dead to differentiation of taste the more one smokes and hence the taste are actually created within the creative devises of our left hemisphere of the brain. Could this be the true development of the pallet, a deception of our own brains? Just asking?
    you know when I do smoke a cigar my wife is the first one to tell me how it smells and the ones that smell bad most of the time do not taste very good either. but allergies, colds and other things you eat do effect your tatse buds. It takes only a week or so to break the spell your tongue is under. You’ll have to give up processed sweet foods and get rid of artificial sweeteners. Use only very small amounts of natural sweeteners (like Stevia, Xylitol, honey and agave) and eat fruits instead. Enhance your food with things like spices or all-natural, no calorie, True Lemon, True Lime or True Orange. When your taste buds recover their normal sensitivity try using half the amount of sugar on your foods, for baking and in drinks. By then you’ll probably realize that fruit and sweet vegetables like yams are delicious and satisfying, and your tongue will tell you the sugary, artificial foods you used to love now seem way too sweet. after fire up a stick
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