Let's talk automotive snake oils.
0patience
Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
Since I've spent a large portion of my career as a mechanic in some sort of information and technology, I thought it would be good to discuss snake oils and snake oil salesmen.
Is there a product you know about that you wonder if it works or not?
Because lately I've seen a ton of videos about making your own hydrogen generator and "what the govt doesn't want you to know about making hydrogen."
Ok, so you have probably seen the videos where this guy made this hydrogen generator out of a couple mason jars, some baking soda and hooking it up to 12 volts on his car and now gets 46 mpg with no power loss and all that jazz.
So let's look at the reality of this. First off, 2 mason jars full of water would equate to just about .2 Kg of hydrogen in the best laboratory circumstances, with no gas loss or contamination.
Next BS. 12 volts to convert water to hydrogen. 1 kg of hydrogen requires 50–79 kwh of electricity.
This isn't a guess, this is actual science put forth by scientist.
A 100 Amp alternator is capable or producing 1.2kwh.
Do you see where the math goes wrong here?
Lasly, it is stated that they are getting more power out of their hydrogen generator, than gasoline.
So let's look at the thermal energy density (power it creates) of gasoline vs. hydrogen.
gasoline produces approx. 34.2 MJ/L (mega Joules per liter)
Compressed Hydrogen produces approx. 5.6 MJ/L
Atmospheric pressure hydrogen approx. 1.2 MJ/L
Again, the math says nope.
But what's this?
The sceptics still say that we shouldn't be looking at thermal energy density MJ/L, we should be specific energy, cause according to them, they've read books and those are different.
Ok, so here we go.
gasoline produces approx.46.4 MJ/kg
Compressed hydrogen produces approx. 142 MJ/kg
Atmospheric pressure hydrogen approx. 12.7 MJ/kg
So yes, compressing hydrogen does up the specific energy of hydrogen well above gasoline, but that is where fuel cells come into affect.
Mason jars are not capable of those kinds of pressures, so it isn't possible.
And if a person were to think that these numbers are skewed or wrong, consider this..
Hydrogen production in the US is becoming a multibillion dollar industry.
Do you think for one moment that hydrogen producing plants would be paying millions of dollars in energy consumption if they thought they could produce hydrogen using 12V batteries?
Now, using fuel cells is a different story.
Yes, you can get similar power from fuel cells.
Yes, you can get better fuel economy, because compressed hydrogen is more efficient that gasoline. And yes hydrogen can be created from water.
But the energy to produce it still comes from coal burning plants.
Each year, technology gets closer to more efficient means to create hydrogen, but creating it from 12 volt alternators of vehicles isn't even close yet.
So, if you've read this far, I salute you.
You are probably a gearhead, mathmetician or nerd. LOL!
Is there a product you know about that you wonder if it works or not?
Because lately I've seen a ton of videos about making your own hydrogen generator and "what the govt doesn't want you to know about making hydrogen."
Ok, so you have probably seen the videos where this guy made this hydrogen generator out of a couple mason jars, some baking soda and hooking it up to 12 volts on his car and now gets 46 mpg with no power loss and all that jazz.
So let's look at the reality of this. First off, 2 mason jars full of water would equate to just about .2 Kg of hydrogen in the best laboratory circumstances, with no gas loss or contamination.
Next BS. 12 volts to convert water to hydrogen. 1 kg of hydrogen requires 50–79 kwh of electricity.
This isn't a guess, this is actual science put forth by scientist.
A 100 Amp alternator is capable or producing 1.2kwh.
Do you see where the math goes wrong here?
Lasly, it is stated that they are getting more power out of their hydrogen generator, than gasoline.
So let's look at the thermal energy density (power it creates) of gasoline vs. hydrogen.
gasoline produces approx. 34.2 MJ/L (mega Joules per liter)
Compressed Hydrogen produces approx. 5.6 MJ/L
Atmospheric pressure hydrogen approx. 1.2 MJ/L
Again, the math says nope.
But what's this?
The sceptics still say that we shouldn't be looking at thermal energy density MJ/L, we should be specific energy, cause according to them, they've read books and those are different.
Ok, so here we go.
gasoline produces approx.46.4 MJ/kg
Compressed hydrogen produces approx. 142 MJ/kg
Atmospheric pressure hydrogen approx. 12.7 MJ/kg
So yes, compressing hydrogen does up the specific energy of hydrogen well above gasoline, but that is where fuel cells come into affect.
Mason jars are not capable of those kinds of pressures, so it isn't possible.
And if a person were to think that these numbers are skewed or wrong, consider this..
Hydrogen production in the US is becoming a multibillion dollar industry.
Do you think for one moment that hydrogen producing plants would be paying millions of dollars in energy consumption if they thought they could produce hydrogen using 12V batteries?
Now, using fuel cells is a different story.
Yes, you can get similar power from fuel cells.
Yes, you can get better fuel economy, because compressed hydrogen is more efficient that gasoline. And yes hydrogen can be created from water.
But the energy to produce it still comes from coal burning plants.
Each year, technology gets closer to more efficient means to create hydrogen, but creating it from 12 volt alternators of vehicles isn't even close yet.
So, if you've read this far, I salute you.
You are probably a gearhead, mathmetician or nerd. LOL!
In Fumo Pax
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Wylaff said:
Atmospheric pressure and crap.
4
Comments
Brett
Agreed. But we are getting closer.
The problem is, the mining for the products for the batteries is terrible.
It is strip mining and devestates the environment.
I love when people who drive electric or hybrids talk about the bad gas guzzlers. LOL!
@peter4jc
In the past 10 years, technology has pushed solar power way beyond anything anyone has imagined.
Today, I can purchase 4 solar panels, a 5KW inverter and a bank of 10 hour batteries for less than $3k. and the panels would only take up about 100 square feet.
10 years ago, the panels and inverter to do that were over $15k and the panels would take up 1000 sq feet.
A look at states that are gaining on wind power and you will see that it is gaining ground. Another thing that they are looking at, but meeting resistance from environmentalists is wave power generation.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
A wind turbine costs roughly 2 million make and to get running.
The electric company pays the land owner rent every month.
Life span is roughly 20 years.
1 million to take it down.
The nuclear plant is contracted to distribute the electricity produced by the wind turbines. Unfortunately the plant is forced to pay 2.5 cents more per KW than the electricity they produce at the plant.
Will a wind turbine produce 3 mil worth of electricity or more in 20 years. I don't know.
I am all for clean energy and would like to see more solar solutions.
Rant over.
Yes Tony I read the entire post. I do math all day at work, am a former gear head, and I guess that makes me an old nerd!
Green is the new Luddite.
Just kidding.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Or fix-a-flat, which tire guys hate.
Oh, and I'm just a nerd. Momma's the mathematician.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
Don't care what tire guys hate.
OTOH -- there is that barsleak that's gonna seal your cracked block Works great ... depending how quick you can sell that vehicle to a stranger.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
Those are just a few seen from using products like bar's leak.
But then again, some sellers will bypass the heater core, so the buywr doesn't realize it until fall.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
We have dealt with a few "carcasses" of strip mining many years back.
The cost to the state was considerable.
I am glad to hear that it sounds like mining is doing so reponsibly now.
Surprisingly, Lithium and gypsum were the biggest that we saw.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
threadjack completed
Talking carbon footprint ALONE, nothing else just carbon footprint, any new electric or hybrid car is FAR FAR worse than any other gas or diesel car on the road over its lifespan. And the biggest reason why is the mining, transportation, and refining and subsequent disposal of the batteries. When you mine most of the material in Canada, then ship it to China for processing, then ship it to Japan for final processing, then ship to a different part for assembly, then ship to the USA for sale of the completed car.... how do you think it is shipped? By boat and that boat funs on fossil fuels....
Point is when you consider the total carbon footprint of a vehicle, it is not just about the emissions as it runs over its life, but about sourcing the materials, refining the materials, shipping the materials, shipping the completed car, running the car over the lifespan of the vehicle, and then disposal of the car and related components you start to see just how bad these are in its current iteration. As I said, the theory and idea is one that I absolutely believe in and get behind, its the current execution of that plan that is so terribly flawed. And honestly, I mostly get wound up about the topic because of the large majority of hybrid car or SUV owners that I meet that look down their noses at me for being in a gas car or think that they are saving the world when in fact they are simply uneducated Fox News zombie morons that don't have two brain cells to rub together and the only research they do is what pops up on their iPhone and have zero original thoughts themselves. That level of mind numbing lemming like following just blows my head off.
Rant over... again.... for now ROFL
Brett
Vehicle inspections. What the heck good do they do? None as far as I can tell.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
Brett
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
Some states require a mandated annual vehicle inspection AND DEQ testing.
If the vehicle doesn't pass the inspection, in some states, once the vehicle owner has spent enough money trying to fix the problem, they might be given a waiver.
Or not.
The problem is, that some states allow the use of approved or certified private shops doing the testing a lot of times. This can sometimes cause some shady doings, as the shop doing the testing could also be offereing the "fixes", so the vehicle can pass.
You can see why this could be a bad idea.
Oregon only requires DEQ testing in Metro areas.
Rural areas are excempt.
In theory, it's not a bad idea.
In practical implementation, not so much.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Brett
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Sales tax has gone to a vote several times, but vehicle license is the one argument those pushing sales tax cannot get past.
The way it is presented to us is that the vehicle license and registration would be charged based on the "tax value" of the vehicle or market value.
The more the vehicle is worth, the more they can charge.
And then there is the luxury tax, gas guzzler tax, 4 wheel drive tax, because you added chrome wheels tax and any other tax they can think of.
As it is, Oregon wants to be able to use your vehicle's GPS to be able to tax you according to miles driven, instead of fuel tax.
And then charging extra taxes when you use certain highways during rush hour and all that.
While this sounds good for those with vehicles that get 40 mpg, most people are having difficulty with the govt having access to your vehicle's information.
And rightly so.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...