"NEC rules not withstanding, this is probably going to end poorly for the consumer, so make sure you cover your bases by letting him know that there is a high likelihood of premature failure of these appliances, unless the manufacturer has SPECIFICALLY designed them for use on 60Hz, either by putting in a switch or using an electronic controller what can accept any input. You don't want him coming after you later for the cost of replacing them because "you are a professional and should have warned him".
The problem with them "checking on line" is that if they did that from a server inside of the US, the target website server for the seller typically identifies the query as coming from the US, so it will only show them the products designed to work here. That explains why they said it told them 120V, but you are seeing 230V 50Hz. The reality is, by buying the appliances IN Europe and shipping them here, they will have purchased versions DESIGNED for EU voltages, not ours. By the way, they will also not be UL listed, which is not really your problem if they are plugged in, but if they start a fire later and the insurance company investigates, it may become a problem for them at that time. Some insurers will not cover damages caused by unlisted appliances.
So the primary problem is that any AC motors (i.e. refrigerator compressors, washer motors, dryer motors, oven and stove fan motors etc.) will prematurely fail even if you correct the voltage. AC motors must get the proper ratio of voltage and frequency to provide rated torque and run at rated current. A motor designed for 220V 50Hz is looking for 4.4 V/Hz. If you provide it with 240V 60Hz, the ratio is 4:1. the motor will spin faster, but provide LESS torque, which means they will end up with more slip and pull higher than rated current. They will either trip their overload protection (assuming it is there) and be a nuisance or burn out prematurely.
Stoves and ovens are likely designed for Line to Neutral 220V (the EU standard) and I have seen where they ground the Neutral INSIDE of the appliance, based on other EU wiring standards. If that's the case, 240V single phase here is Line to Line, so any internal grounded Neutral connections will be a dead ground fault. You may have to go through the internal wiring diagrams of the stoves and ovens to search out any of these issues BEFORE applying power. Make sure you cover the time this will take you.
Things with electronic power supplies MIGHT survive, but there is no guarantee and I think you owe it to them to let them know.
It never ceases to amaze me how (and why) people insist on moving large appliances to or from other countries without checking into the ramifications FIRST with a qualified electrical professional."
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list. Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
“As far as wiring, i am not sure what he wants. There are 3 wires, 2 hots and a ground. It is wired at 240 single phase with each wire being a hot lead. he should know this. The Euro plug will need to be cut off as that is for Euro use. They just make it that way as i sell many within Europe so we keep that plug on there. For US use, the plug gets cut off and wired to your outlet or choice of plug. But i will check with my manufacturer to see what he has as far as a wire schematic to help the electrician
Did you cut the plug and expose the wires yet? Tell me the colors and i will let you know. But there will only be 3 wires found in there. There is no need for the 4th wire as there is no 120 volt circuit in the machine at all. You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something. But this machine does not have that so it only has 3 wires. The ground will most likely be the yellow with green stripe. The power leads will either be our white and black, or the euro light blue and brown. But they will both be power. I have never seen an electrician say that they wanted to replace the main power cord before. I have sold a bunch and have had electricians wire it with the existing power cord.”
If you quote me do the @TX98Z28 in your text or I won't be notified of your quote, Thanks.
You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something
US 240V 4 wire is; 120V 120V Ground Neutral
Not sure what he's talking about the one for the 120v for the appliance.
The ground will most likely be the yellow with green stripe.
He's not sure??
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something
US 240V 4 wire is; 120V 120V Ground Neutral
Not sure what he's talking about the one for the 120v for the appliance.
The ground will most likely be the yellow with green stripe.
He's not sure??
Hes trying to cover his @ss in the event something goes wrong I guess.
If you quote me do the @TX98Z28 in your text or I won't be notified of your quote, Thanks.
I think this is where confusion by the owner and my self are coming from, as I look at different 240V NEMA recepticals SOME have a Netural and others do not...at least on the receptical.
If you quote me do the @TX98Z28 in your text or I won't be notified of your quote, Thanks.
“As far as wiring, i am not sure what he wants. There are 3 wires, 2 hots and a ground. It is wired at 240 single phase with each wire being a hot lead. he should know this. The Euro plug will need to be cut off as that is for Euro use.
The Euro plug is for 1 hot 230v and 1 neutral 0v and 1 ground.
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list. Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
Interesting article. Not a fan of the device he built.
I've actually wired a cart for a plasma cutter, as mentioned at the beginning of the article. Plugged into a 3Ph 480v receptacle to a fused safety switch, two legs to a transformer, 480 to 240, more fuses, then to the plasma cutter.
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list. Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
Electrician coming out Friday to look at breaker box etc. Will see what their advice is on machine. Power company admitted equipment failure caused the power surge about a month or so ago, lights, fans, came on that were off! Curious what voltage we were sent during the surge...and this isn’t the first time it’s happened either.
If you quote me do the @TX98Z28 in your text or I won't be notified of your quote, Thanks.
I have to laugh at this... You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something. This confirms the person has no clue what they are talking about. typical 220-240 will have 2 hots, neutral, & ground. Sometimes without the neutral if it is a straight motor or resistive load. The neutral does come into play with 120v if there are electronics or there is a control voltage need. I guess I shouldn't say "no clue" he has some clue I guess.
Life is too short to smoke bad cigars!!!
Oh when the Blues, Oh when the Blues, Oh when the Blues go marching in!
Comments
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=157058
A post from the above thread:
"NEC rules not withstanding, this is probably going to end poorly for the consumer, so make sure you cover your bases by letting him know that there is a high likelihood of premature failure of these appliances, unless the manufacturer has SPECIFICALLY designed them for use on 60Hz, either by putting in a switch or using an electronic controller what can accept any input. You don't want him coming after you later for the cost of replacing them because "you are a professional and should have warned him".
The problem with them "checking on line" is that if they did that from a server inside of the US, the target website server for the seller typically identifies the query as coming from the US, so it will only show them the products designed to work here. That explains why they said it told them 120V, but you are seeing 230V 50Hz. The reality is, by buying the appliances IN Europe and shipping them here, they will have purchased versions DESIGNED for EU voltages, not ours. By the way, they will also not be UL listed, which is not really your problem if they are plugged in, but if they start a fire later and the insurance company investigates, it may become a problem for them at that time. Some insurers will not cover damages caused by unlisted appliances.
So the primary problem is that any AC motors (i.e. refrigerator compressors, washer motors, dryer motors, oven and stove fan motors etc.) will prematurely fail even if you correct the voltage. AC motors must get the proper ratio of voltage and frequency to provide rated torque and run at rated current. A motor designed for 220V 50Hz is looking for 4.4 V/Hz. If you provide it with 240V 60Hz, the ratio is 4:1. the motor will spin faster, but provide LESS torque, which means they will end up with more slip and pull higher than rated current. They will either trip their overload protection (assuming it is there) and be a nuisance or burn out prematurely.
Stoves and ovens are likely designed for Line to Neutral 220V (the EU standard) and I have seen where they ground the Neutral INSIDE of the appliance, based on other EU wiring standards. If that's the case, 240V single phase here is Line to Line, so any internal grounded Neutral connections will be a dead ground fault. You may have to go through the internal wiring diagrams of the stoves and ovens to search out any of these issues BEFORE applying power. Make sure you cover the time this will take you.
Things with electronic power supplies MIGHT survive, but there is no guarantee and I think you owe it to them to let them know.
It never ceases to amaze me how (and why) people insist on moving large appliances to or from other countries without checking into the ramifications FIRST with a qualified electrical professional."
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list.
Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
It'll be fine once the swelling goes down.
“As far as wiring, i am not sure what he wants. There are 3 wires, 2 hots and a ground. It is wired at 240 single phase with each wire being a hot lead. he should know this. The Euro plug will need to be cut off as that is for Euro use. They just make it that way as i sell many within Europe so we keep that plug on there. For US use, the plug gets cut off and wired to your outlet or choice of plug. But i will check with my manufacturer to see what he has as far as a wire schematic to help the electrician
Did you cut the plug and expose the wires yet? Tell me the colors and i will let you know. But there will only be 3 wires found in there. There is no need for the 4th wire as there is no 120 volt circuit in the machine at all. You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something. But this machine does not have that so it only has 3 wires. The ground will most likely be the yellow with green stripe. The power leads will either be our white and black, or the euro light blue and brown. But they will both be power. I have never seen an electrician say that they wanted to replace the main power cord before. I have sold a bunch and have had electricians wire it with the existing power cord.”
120V
120V
Ground
Neutral
Not sure what he's talking about the one for the 120v for the appliance.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
The Euro plug is for 1 hot 230v and 1 neutral 0v and 1 ground.
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list.
Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
It'll be fine once the swelling goes down.
https://makezine.com/2016/11/02/understanding-240v-ac-power-heavy-duty-power-tools/
I've actually wired a cart for a plasma cutter, as mentioned at the beginning of the article. Plugged into a 3Ph 480v receptacle to a fused safety switch, two legs to a transformer, 480 to 240, more fuses, then to the plasma cutter.
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list.
Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
It'll be fine once the swelling goes down.
You see 4 wires in 240 stoves and dryers as they will still use 2 for powering the 240 circuit, one of course for ground, and one for a 120 circuit within the appliance itself for a digital display or something.
This confirms the person has no clue what they are talking about. typical 220-240 will have 2 hots, neutral, & ground. Sometimes without the neutral if it is a straight motor or resistive load. The neutral does come into play with 120v if there are electronics or there is a control voltage need. I guess I shouldn't say "no clue" he has some clue I guess.
Life is too short to smoke bad cigars!!!
Oh when the Blues, Oh when the Blues, Oh when the Blues go marching in!