What is Terrorism Worth?

Surely you are not saying we should just let terrorism happen?

let? well I guess we should tell every other country that... No but I am saying that at what price does it take? Even then it will still happen. Terrorism is only a view really. So why not just let everyone be tagged, gps'd, and have roving military along with checkpoints? I guess that would make us safer. And WTF is it with airports anyway? I mean there are enough deaths just from plane crashes than in any terrorist attack. The only attack that would really mean anything in terms of lives would be a nuclear or biological. What a several hundred people died in 9-11. Sure it was tragic, horrible! But at what cost? Thousands of our sodliers have died because of it. The US has done a pretty good job of combating terrorist networks for years. Just because of the bust administrations lack of "caring" or what have you 9-11 happened. Even other agencies outside of the US had intel but no one wants to talk about that.

TatuajeVI

Really? A guy just attempted to blow himself up on at an airport not 30 miles from my house. On Christmas. The only reason it didn't happen is because his bomb didn't work.

The reason for tighter airport securitly is more than obious - it's the easiest and quickest way to get to the US from out of the country. And, clearly, the security is not working.

I served in the Army the last 6 years and feel your pain when it comes to TSA attempting to search your bag you spent hours packing. But, seriously, they are doing their job. Whether I am in uniform or not doesn't give me the right to skip security. If they want to search my bag, go ahead - just don't let some 23 year old male flying in from Kenya skip security either. Yes, I support profiling of muslim/arabic males, and you should, too. If an extreme sect of bald men between the ages of 65 and 70 started blowing themselves up, I'd want all of them profiled, too.

Fourtotheflush

If you dont want to go through security to fly then don't, just drive or take the slow boat.....
It wouldnt bother me if security was even tighter. Now thats airport security on the US front. Now the wars over in Iraq and Afg are a different story all together. These are going to take far too long to address here at this time....

Fourtotheflush

I should say it will take too much brain power that I am seriously lacking at this moment due to another sleepless night.

a police man (and correct me if im wrong) can only search my car if he has probable cause that i am committing a crime. if my car, from all angles looks to be in compliance with the law, even if i have a loaded rocket launcher in the trunk, cannot be randomly searched.
the basis for this rule stems from the Fourth Amendment that states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

government orders to search everyone with a machine that can see through your clothes because you might be that one person to commit a crime seems to be in violation of the fourth amendment.

Vulchor

Im with your reasoning here Kuz and have thought the same thing myself and never gotten an answer I found satisfactory. Squirrel, I also agree with much of what you are saying in your points as well. I believe however (as your post talk about cost) the terrorism threat is one the govt. embraces because it is a way to keep the govt-industrial complex going and going and cost/benefit of that is too great to ever stop more regulations.

This from a few years back but yet still highly revelant:

HISTORY TEST

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice
test. The events are actual events from history. They actually happened.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying
to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to
ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics' intent on
killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile
certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women,
little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who
are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with
metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but
leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of
profiling.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does."

And guess who just bombed London ?

Luko

What about if you were crossing the border into Canada (or back again)? Then they can search your trunkfor your loaded rocket launcher without any probably cause other than the fact that they don't like the cut of your jib.

Vulchor

I am all for profiling, I dont think anyone said anything against it. With all due respect, I think thats why people hate "profiling" and "sterotypes" soooo much, because they often are wayyyyyy more right than they are off base.

kuzi16:
a police man (and correct me if im wrong) can only search my car if he has probable cause that i am committing a crime. if my car, from all angles looks to be in compliance with the law, even if i have a loaded rocket launcher in the trunk, cannot be randomly searched.
the basis for this rule stems from the Fourth Amendment that states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

government orders to search everyone with a machine that can see through your clothes because you might be that one person to commit a crime seems to be in violation of the fourth amendment.

and that probable cause or reasonable suspicion, could be that you fit the description. which could be as vague as white male driving a dark colored car

mustluvcigars:
kuzi16:
a police man (and correct me if im wrong) can only search my car if he has probable cause that i am committing a crime. if my car, from all angles looks to be in compliance with the law, even if i have a loaded rocket launcher in the trunk, cannot be randomly searched.
the basis for this rule stems from the Fourth Amendment that states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

government orders to search everyone with a machine that can see through your clothes because you might be that one person to commit a crime seems to be in violation of the fourth amendment.

and that probable cause or reasonable suspicion, could be that you fit the description. which could be as vague as white male driving a dark colored car

but if you didnt have anything in the car at the time, this would not stand up in court, nor should it.

Luko:
What about if you were crossing the border into Canada (or back again)? Then they can search your trunkfor your loaded rocket launcher without any probably cause other than the fact that they don't like the cut of your jib.

they can, but the issue here is:
"should"

last time i checked, the US constitution didnt mean much in Canada.

mustluvcigars:
This from a few years back but yet still highly revelant:

HISTORY TEST

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice
test. The events are actual events from history. They actually happened.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying
to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to
ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics' intent on
killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile
certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women,
little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who
are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with
metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but
leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of
profiling.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does."

And guess who just bombed London ?

what about oklahoma city bombings?
the shooting of JFK?
MLK?
the Branch Dividian?(sp?)

i see your point here. i see the trends.

here is a thought:

the number of terrorists that are Muslim seems to be disproportionately high compared to terrorists from other cultures.
flip it around a bit. what percentage of Muslims are terrorists?

im sure it is far smaller than .1% given the 1.6 billion people in the world that follow Islam

kuzi16:
mustluvcigars:
This from a few years back but yet still highly revelant:

HISTORY TEST

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice
test. The events are actual events from history. They actually happened.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying
to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to
ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics' intent on
killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile
certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women,
little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who
are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with
metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but
leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of
profiling.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does."

And guess who just bombed London ?

what about oklahoma city bombings?
the shooting of JFK?
MLK?
the Branch Dividian?(sp?)

i see your point here. i see the trends.

here is a thought:

the number of terrorists that are Muslim seems to be disproportionately high compared to terrorists from other cultures.
flip it around a bit. what percentage of Muslims are terrorists?

im sure it is far smaller than .1% given the 1.6 billion people in the world that follow Islam

Therefore lost Norwegians and grandmas must go through stringent scans and searches before getting on an airplane to ensure the safety of 300 souls on board. I have to let someone watch me go pee almost every job i get, how much more private can that act be? Are my rights being violated? We dont need these costly scanners, Same thing could be accomplished with dogs and strip searches, I think the scanners are much less invasive.

mustluvcigars:
I have to let someone watch me go pee almost every job i get, how much more private can that act be? Are my rights being violated?

the terms of your job ask you to waive your rights so you can work there. if you dont want to giver up that right for that moment you dont have to work there.
the government mandating airlines to use that machine is the part thats the problem. i agree dogs are effective. the government mandating that machine is telling a private company how to run their business.

if the government didnt mandate security, im sure after 9/11 airlines themselves would be upping security just to hold up business. if that were the case you could chose what airline you felt violated your rights less, then a ticket would be you waiving your rights.

KUZI wow, we agree on something! lol.. Nicely put. I have a hard time giving up more of my already dwindling freedoms in prevention of terrorism!!! I'm actually surprised that some of you are for this. Before I went into the Army in 2000 PDX (my local airport) was having construction done of a new lounge (shall we say) for people waiting for planes to come in. As well as boosting up the waiting area. But 9-11 made that go away and what is there now is a bunch of CRAP and I have to get to the flippin airport much earlier than I had to before. Saying that I can take other means of transportation and just not to go the airport is rather ridiculous! You really think this is just going to stop at the airport!? Do you realize that your justifying more destruction of your privacy and freedom by going along with it? I know there isn't a whole lot any of us can do but to say your okay with it is just well, sad. Looking at the big picture this whole security for safety thing is really a bad path. Sure I'm okay with security but in moderation. Already this country (by no means is it the worse) has lost it's open-ness. Though I wasn't around then, my parents often tell me of how they seemed more FREE back in the 50's and 60's.

Profiling... Eh, I'm sort of torn on it. Sure you can take what is the average and base an opinion on it but here's the thing does it really work and is it worth the price? Now I don't know all the details but here is something I have seen a few times in my area. While on a walk my wife and I saw 2 cop cars pull in front and back of a black man while he was walking. Now I'm no expert but he was walking normally, dressed fairly nice and looked more stunned than anything. I've seen a few other occasions that same thing happen. Now I feel that it was profiling of sorts. I know it's done in far more instances than that but like what Kuzi said, if there is probably cause to search or stop you then okay but if there is not then don't. Now what that probable cause is and to what a person has to fight it is another thing.

I personally feel in more danger from drug dealers, everyday criminals and such than from some terrorist. My GOD! How many people die or severely hurt a year from killings or robbery's or even sexual assaults? How many people die in our Military from wars? And how many people die from a terror attack? Ummmmmm, well those numbers will speak for themselves. Terror attacks will happen, and there really isn't anything govt can do except for using intel to fight it. Locking up it's citizens and forcing them (of which most are law abiding) to undergo more and more security measures. Let's face it, shampoo bottles, lighters, and pocket knives get confiscated at airports? Really those are things a lot of use so WTF? You could as easily use a banana to hold up a plane if used right. You could kill someone with your hands. And you can make a gun out of basic materials and you don't have to be a genius. All I'm saying that is if you keep losing your freedom and rights what is the point of fighting terror or fear? When I deal with home alarms I ask people why they have them and most say for intruders. They say that they feel safer. Well I can understand, they are loud and most of the times will alert the police but what if the intruder knows how to stop or disable them? Knowing how to take care of yourself is probably a more important investment. Now sure I will probably get one, just because of the attention they bring but that would be it. I know how to take care of myself but what I'm saying is the mentality of what most tell me. Oh it will alert someone, well what if it doesn't? Most of these people would be fair game. The illusion of safety has taken a lot of people over. We really need to get back to our roots as we were back in the early days though I doubt that will ever happen. We as a society are weak no doubt.

kuzi16:
mustluvcigars:
I have to let someone watch me go pee almost every job i get, how much more private can that act be? Are my rights being violated?
the terms of your job ask you to waive your rights so you can work there. if you dont want to giver up that right for that moment you dont have to work there.
the government mandating airlines to use that machine is the part thats the problem. i agree dogs are effective. the government mandating that machine is telling a private company how to run their business.

if the government didnt mandate security, im sure after 9/11 airlines themselves would be upping security just to hold up business. if that were the case you could chose what airline you felt violated your rights less, then a ticket would be you waiving your rights.

I still don't think that me as a customer buying a ticket waives my rights. And I have never gone to a job that forced me to pee in front of someone (and if I had to they would more likely be a nurse so they probably would see my **** anyway), only in the Army did I have to do that. Though I do find it F'd up that some places make the applicant pay for this procedure. If anything like I said in my last post, if people stood up and said enough this wouldn't happen. I would love it if people would take that stand among others. I personally feel like a cow going to be slaughtered in airports, it's damn right wrong.

laker1963

kuzi16:
mustluvcigars:
This from a few years back but yet still highly revelant:

HISTORY TEST

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice
test. The events are actual events from history. They actually happened.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Leno
c. Harry Potter
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying
to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to
ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics' intent on
killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile
certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women,
little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who
are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with
metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but
leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of
profiling.

As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does."

And guess who just bombed London ?

what about oklahoma city bombings?
the shooting of JFK?
MLK?
the Branch Dividian?(sp?)

i see your point here. i see the trends.

here is a thought:

the number of terrorists that are Muslim seems to be disproportionately high compared to terrorists from other cultures.
flip it around a bit. what percentage of Muslims are terrorists?

im sure it is far smaller than .1% given the 1.6 billion people in the world that follow Islam

Honestly guy's, not trying to beat a dead horse but... doesn't anybody else see the connection between the discussion going on here, and the issues in the Middle East?
IMO terrorism (I hate that term) aimed at the US by Muslims, or Islamic Fundamentalists has a DIRECT link to the US's position on Mid East affairs, and the perceived unfairness of the "Peace process". Maybe machines and technology are doing more to perpetuate this situation then what could be acheived by a more balanced and fair approach to solving the Mid East situation. Just my opinion.

phobicsquirrel:
KUZI wow, we agree on something! lol.. Nicely put. I have a hard time giving up more of my already dwindling freedoms in prevention of terrorism!!!

but you are ok with giving up your rights for other reasons?
i guess thats the disconnect for me.

kuzi16:
phobicsquirrel:
KUZI wow, we agree on something! lol.. Nicely put. I have a hard time giving up more of my already dwindling freedoms in prevention of terrorism!!!
but you are ok with giving up your rights for other reasons?
i guess thats the disconnect for me.

what rights kuzi? having an option to have the govt run health care? Yeah I'd rather pay a small premium or hell even have a small tax for healthcare than pay these leeching companies that profit off of people. That isn't giving up any rights. If any, I'm gaining some.

laker1963:
kuzi16:
mustluvcigars:
This from a few years
And guess who just bombed London ?

what about oklahoma city bombings?
the shooting of JFK?
MLK?
the Branch Dividian?(sp?)

i see your point here. i see the trends.

here is a thought:

the number of terrorists that are Muslim seems to be disproportionately high compared to terrorists from other cultures.
flip it around a bit. what percentage of Muslims are terrorists?

im sure it is far smaller than .1% given the 1.6 billion people in the world that follow Islam

Honestly guy's, not trying to beat a dead horse but... doesn't anybody else see the connection between the discussion going on here, and the issues in the Middle East?
IMO terrorism (I hate that term) aimed at the US by Muslims, or Islamic Fundamentalists has a DIRECT link to the US's position on Mid East affairs, and the perceived unfairness of the "Peace process". Maybe machines and technology are doing more to perpetuate this situation then what could be acheived by a more balanced and fair approach to solving the Mid East situation. Just my opinion.

Laker, maybe. But terrorism just isn't from the middle east. Most of the attacks in the US have been from Americans themselves pushing an agenda. Peace would be nice but you can only have peace if both sides want it. In Ireland the IRA were the bad guys but it depends on which side your on.. I'm not expert but fundamentalists have little desire for peace. It's like having a debate with a devote religious person about how there is no GOD or explaining to Kuzi that a govt run health care insurance won't end life as we know it and that for profit health insurance is far, far worse. As I might add Aetna, wellpoint or healthnet whatever you call it, and cigna have all had huge profits for 2009. Cigna had a 117 or so percent increase in stocks!!!!!! Hmmm, yeah seems to me they should be left alone...

phobicsquirrel:
kuzi16:
phobicsquirrel:
KUZI wow, we agree on something! lol.. Nicely put. I have a hard time giving up more of my already dwindling freedoms in prevention of terrorism!!!
but you are ok with giving up your rights for other reasons?
i guess thats the disconnect for me.
what rights kuzi? having an option to have the govt run health care? Yeah I'd rather pay a small premium or hell even have a small tax for healthcare than pay these leeching companies that profit off of people. That isn't giving up any rights. If any, I'm gaining some.

meanwhile you are taking away the rights of the people getting taxed for this service. the right you are taking away it the right to keep what you earn by your own hands so long it does not infringe on the rights of others.

this doesnt even cover the fact that this "option" isnt really an "option". it WILL force companies to change their health care and how it works or to drop it all together.

when it comes to health care you always complain that companies run your life, however when the government does the EXACT same thing you are all for it.

...and health care is not a right or even a need in life. it is a luxury good or service.

you feel that it is OK to take, by force via the IRS, from the rich and redistribute for what feels right. that is what you are saying by being for government run health care.

theft, from anyone, for any reason, is immoral.

if you want those evil corporations to stop taking money from you, then cancel your health insurance.

if you dont, you clearly feel that they provide a service that is worth your money.

or switch to a company that has better service, or a better price. you still have a right to any of those things. but you wont for long, with the MANDATE in the bill that passed that you buy insurance.
...insurance that will cost more than ever before because of other provisions in the bill.

but wasnt this thread about terrorism?

or is it always about individual rights?

kuzi16:
phobicsquirrel:
kuzi16:
phobicsquirrel:
KUZI wow, we agree on something! lol.. Nicely put. I have a hard time giving up more of my already dwindling freedoms in prevention of terrorism!!!
but you are ok with giving up your rights for other reasons?
i guess thats the disconnect for me.
what rights kuzi? having an option to have the govt run health care? Yeah I'd rather pay a small premium or hell even have a small tax for healthcare than pay these leeching companies that profit off of people. That isn't giving up any rights. If any, I'm gaining some.
meanwhile you are taking away the rights of the people getting taxed for this service. the right you are taking away it the right to keep what you earn by your own hands so long it does not infringe on the rights of others.

this doesnt even cover the fact that this "option" isnt really an "option". it WILL force companies to change their health care and how it works or to drop it all together.

when it comes to health care you always complain that companies run your life, however when the government does the EXACT same thing you are all for it.

well as I see it, I'd rather have a small amount of my pay go towards a system that will let me see a doctor or have an operation when I need it. Right now that is questionable and expensive. So what your all about is, only have those who can afford to pay whatever to get things they need? Well then why have a government? Government is there to bring order and basic needs. I pay for schools, though I have no kids. I pay for social security though I'm not 65 (and I might add that I can't change the amount either like taxes), I pay for police and fire, I pay for roads, I paid with my health and my life (though I didn't lose it like many others) while in the Army. I have a lot of friends in all parts of the country and I swear this healthcare system in this country is all Fd up. I know you are all about protecting corporations as you buy into the Reagan philosophy that Govt is bad but really it seems that large companies are the ones who are. Look at what they have done to our own Govt and the legislation that has been being passed over the last 30 years? Your a smart guy but the very people who you defend and say we are better under are the very one's responsible for most of the issues we face today. Yeah sure, I hate seeing people leeching on the govt system, but really most aren't. I've seen and talked to many of them who are on some sort of assistance but don't want to leave it as they get a bit more from that than working at taco bell and when you take in that they get free health care and are at home with their kids (if they have any) they don't have to pay for childcare. Which I might add is HUGE!

For example, my best friend who works with me is with his GF who has 2 kids but is on state assistance, gets food stamps and gets free healthcare (oregon health plan). She just finished up her 4 year degree and is in the first year of dental school. Now my friend and I make decent money, not rich but well off. If they got married she no longer would get all the assistance and therefore she would not be able to get any schooling done and they would be broke, very broke but not enough for aide. They pay 1400 dollars a month for child care, school is expensive, more so now since she is in the dental program and they keep making her pay for supplies that are very expensive on short notice (like she had to shell out 650 bucks for a drill). And let's not forget about healthcare and a place to live. It does suck having to pay for services that I don't need or can't qualify even though my wife and I would like to have medicare or medicaid but I know that it's there if I ever need it and it does do good things.