Isreal issues...again

Vulchor

I figured just to throw it out there again, in the aftermath of what has happened in the last several days. I know this is a heated topic on both sides, but for me personally I think it is a welcome change to have a little criticism or want some answers out of Isreal (at the very least)... instead of often turning a blind eye to behaviors or simply making it another Palestians as the bad guy issue. Any feelings?

laker1963

I'm not going to wade into another of these Mid-east whos' right, who's wrong debates, because it is just not worth the enrgy.

I will say that whatever comes of this, both sides would benefit from this whole ugly situation being rectified. For that matter the whole world would be better off, in one way or another.

xmacro

laker1963:

I'm not going to wade into another of these Mid-east whos' right, who's wrong debates, because it is just not worth the enrgy..

+1

wwhwang

My parents taught me something very valuable when I was young. "A quick way to kill a friendship is to debate about politics or religion."

Theedge

My parents taught me the opposite! Their sales pitch was "how could you NOT talk about some of the things that most affect you while you are alive, and when your dead"? That being said the last discussion I had with my dad re: religion ended before it began with me saying "it's not open for debate". Oooooofda, that comment was 39 years in the making. As far as Isreal goes......someone just needs to finally win. Remember when people used to win?

fla-gypsy

I knew it wouldn't be long, but I am staying out of it. My position on all of it has been stated pretty clearly in the past and hasn't changed.

Theedge

Oh, and Josh Groban is over rated! That ought to heat things up a bit.

laker1963

Theedge:

My parents taught me the opposite! Their sales pitch was "how could you NOT talk about some of the things that most affect you while you are alive, and when your dead"? That being said the last discussion I had with my dad re: religion ended before it began with me saying "it's not open for debate". Oooooofda, that comment was 39 years in the making. As far as Isreal goes......someone just needs to finally win. Remember when people used to win?

I hold much the same feelings as you stated. This topic has been discussed to death, and the only thing for certain is that the BOTL here have made their points and hold such strong opinions about this issue that nobody is going to change anybody's mind. Therefore it all just becomes a waste of time and energy.

You can either be a left wing terrorist lover or an uncaring FU CK... take your pick.

dennisking

what Israel did was grossly uncalled for.

TatuajeVI

dennisking:

what Israel did was grossly uncalled for.

well... depends on if you actually believe the "flotilla" were a bunch of peaceful protesters. Fact is - they weren't. There is far, far more to this than many people understand. Iran is deliberately backing Israel into a corner, and the only way to get (large) Iranian weapons into Palestein is by boat. Breaking the blockade is their objective, and this was the first of their attempts to probe that area.

Israel warned the boat they would board it if they entered the blockade and drive the boat away from the blockade - and they backed up their word with actions. When the "peace flotilla" started to throw the Israeli soldiers off the boat, throw rocks at their heads, and stab them with knives (oh, and completely surrounded the soldiers) they opened fire. I would have, too, given the situation. They were screwed either way.

The situation is terrible, and I'm not saying Israel handled the situation the right way. But frankly, the soldiers had no other choice once they were on the boat and surrounded by a bunch of extremely violent people attempting to kill them.

dennisking

and there's the other side of the story from Phil. every story has 2 sides and it seems as if all these countries want Israel wiped off the map and they are bent on it. why can't we all just get along

TatuajeVI

dennisking:

and there's the other side of the story from Phil. every story has 2 sides and it seems as if all these countries want Israel wiped off the map and they are bent on it. why can't we all just get along

When you have a thousands-of-years-old culture who has a legitimate claim to a small piece of land that happens to be right in the middle of a bunch of countries who want them all dead (and have wanted them all dead for thousands of years) and also have a new culture of people (the Palestinians) who also have legitimate claim to said land, it's going to be very difficult to have peace. I personally don't believe they will EVER get along. Well... unless the rest of the Middle East leaves them alone and all the Palestinians leave. But obviously that will never happen.

TatuajeVI

Oh, and I left off the part about soldiers being beaten with metal poles

In the video, you can also see the soldiers attempted to shoot paintball guns at the "protesters" in order to use a "less-than-lethal" force. That certainly didn't work. It also shows the "protesters" throwing a soldier off the boat. Oh, and there is another video somewhere showing the "protesters" throwing fire-bombs at the soldiers. Peaceful my ass. A bunch of peaceful protesters aren't normally armed with knives, poles, and firebombs.

jpclotfelter

How long does Iran, Hezbolla, and the Palestinians think that they can provoke Israel before something like this happened?

laker1963

jpclotfelter:

How long does Iran, Hezbolla, and the Palestinians think that they can provoke Israel before something like this happened?

This is getting harder all the time...Grrrrr.

lilwing88

There's really only one thing to say with regards to the ME...... that place is f***ed up, yo.

Vulchor

Tat....cmon man. Look at what was found on the boat, nothing to do with Iran AT ALL. Its so easy here to think Irsreal is the persecuted one always. I wonder how much time and money the Turkish and other media outlets have to spin this in their favor-----I know Isreal has a lot of both.

If this was truly an attack on them btw, how many Isreali soldiers are dead???? Was this really the best way to handle boats filled with medicine, food, and books??? Cmon facyts are facts here.....and I know this has been beaten to death, but this is the most obvious case os Isreali abuse in recent memory----FOR THE WORLD TO SEE!

TatuajeVI

Food, medicine and books? Come on - there is no food or medical crisis going on in Palestine. The UN (and US tax payer dollars) have been supporting Palestine with food/medicine etc for decades. If you really think this boat was sent for humanitarian purposes, you are blind! Did you watch the video?

Vulchor

I did...and the video showed me nothing definitie on either side. I have also seen however what was on the ship---or perhaps what wasnt..guns, weapons, etc. I dont believe that is being contested. In addition, I also see the deaths and none seem to be on the Isreali side. Not saying I wanted any of them to lose their lives, but if they were the ones being attacked, I find those numbers a bit odd.

laker1963

TatuajeVI:

Food, medicine and books? Come on - there is no food or medical crisis going on in Palestine. The UN (and US tax payer dollars) have been supporting Palestine with food/medicine etc for decades. If you really think this boat was sent for humanitarian purposes, you are blind! Did you watch the video?

Can you please show us some evidence of what you just said.

I have NEVER seen this mentioned anywhere before. If it were the case I am sure we would all have heard aboput it. The Egyptians have opened their border crossing to allow foor, medicine and humanitarin supplie into Gaza. If what you say is true, I see no reason why this would be required.

Please send some links, or whatever you saw that says these things. I am NOT getting into this debate, but claims like this cannot go without proof, or they are just not credible, and are just more tasteless anti Palestinian rhetoric.

fla-gypsy

Links to video footage http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261

Vulchor

Im pretty sure he meant the US providing aide to Gaza for the last several decades.....everyone has seen the boat video.

laker1963

Vulchor:

Im pretty sure he meant the US providing aide to Gaza for the last several decades.....everyone has seen the boat video.

Yes I did. If you can't find the videos of this incident online or haven't already been exposed to them 1000 times... You're dead.

I wanted some proof of what Phil was saying. Anyone?

fla-gypsy

fla-gypsy:

Links to video footage http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261

The above url clearly shows Israeli navy under attack before boarding the vessel. I would have shot too if I would have been there. BTW, I am not Jewish either.

laker1963

fla-gypsy:

fla-gypsy:

Links to video footage http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261

The above url clearly shows Israeli navy under attack before boarding the vessel. I would have shot too if I would have been there. BTW, I am not Jewish either.

DEWD, what is your damage? It also shows the Israeli's chasing and boarding a ship in international waters, which is illegal, but you fail to mention that. Regardless, I am well aware of these video's, everybody is. What I wanted was proof of some of the claims being made by TatuajeVI. Can you offer some proof of what he said? It seems like you are trying to bury my request with double posts. Why?

I and others have been challenged many time to provide proof of things we say, I am only asking for the same from your side of the arguement, and that video... edited by the IDF sure doesn't provide proof of what he claimed

phobicsquirrel

wwhwang:

My parents taught me something very valuable when I was young. "A quick way to kill a friendship is to debate about politics or religion."

yup very true though I think that should have been realized long ago here, hopefully we can all get past that on other things.. lol.
On topic though, yeah, both sides need to work this out but it's not getting better.

TatuajeVI

laker1963:

Vulchor:

Im pretty sure he meant the US providing aide to Gaza for the last several decades.....everyone has seen the boat video.

Yes I did. If you can't find the videos of this incident online or haven't already been exposed to them 1000 times... You're dead.

I wanted some proof of what Phil was saying. Anyone?

While I do a bit of searching around, why don't you find me an article about a humanitarian crisis of food and medical supplies in the Gaza strip. And one that isn't written by Hamas as they sent out the "peace flotilla." Hint: there isn't a crisis.

TatuajeVI

Here's an article about aid to Gaza written in 2008: LINK

Here's one where the UN halted aid shipments to Gaza (Hamas was stealing the aid, ha! Well done terrorists!) LINK This was 2009. I realize these aren't all that old, but there is certainly a pattern of the UN sending in aid.

Oh, and here is the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestinian Refugees) that was founded in 1949. Yes, the UN has been sending and giving aid to Palestinians for decades.

Do these links satisfy your query, Tony?

TatuajeVI

phobicsquirrel:

wwhwang:

My parents taught me something very valuable when I was young. "A quick way to kill a friendship is to debate about politics or religion."

yup very true though I think that should have been realized long ago here, hopefully we can all get past that on other things.. lol.
On topic though, yeah, both sides need to work this out but it's not getting better.

I think I read somewhere that Israel is backing down and is opening up the waterways a bit. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Hamas/Hezbolla/Iran won't take advantage of that and ship in a bunch of weapons... /sarcasm

laker1963

TatuajeVI:

Here's an article about aid to Gaza written in 2008: LINK

Here's one where the UN halted aid shipments to Gaza (Hamas was stealing the aid, ha! Well done terrorists!) LINK This was 2009. I realize these aren't all that old, but there is certainly a pattern of the UN sending in aid.

Oh, and here is the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestinian Refugees) that was founded in 1949. Yes, the UN has been sending and giving aid to Palestinians for decades.

Do these links satisfy your query, Tony?

I read your links... did you? That first one starts with a headline which reads...Aid reaching Gaza, but U.N. says it's not enough. This is a very interesting article indeed, but it sure doesn't support what you claim, at all.

The second link was regarding the UN cutting off the flow of aid until Hamas returned aid supplies from UN convoys, not once but twice. This occurred right after the Isreali Operation Cast Lead.

My question to you is... do you feel it is OK to punish 1.5 million people collectively because of Hamas? The relief that is getting into Gaza now is a result of the Egyptians thumbing their noses at Israel and opening their border, so at this moment some supplies are getting thru. Hardly something to point at as proof that humanitarians supplies are getting through considering this border was opened yesterday, and the blockade has been going on for almost 3 years.

Your final link starts out thusly...(UNRWA) is a relief and human development agency, providing education, health care, social services and emergency aid to over four hundred thousand Palestine refugees living in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, as well as in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Ummm, that is less then 1/3 of Palestinians who are presently being held hostage in the Gaza strip alone, and as you can read this aid was divided between three other countries as well as the west Bank. So what of the other 1.1 million Palestinians within the Gaza strip itself. Which is what we are talking about after all?

TatuajeVI

Are you trying to say that every single person in Gaza is starving? Come on, Tony. Let's be serious. If aid is going to a third of their population, that's pretty good, don't you think?

Those links do back up my point. My statement was that the UN (and US tax money) has been sending aid to Gaza for decades. But, just to humor you, perhaps I will do a bit more research and see what else I can find.