Are you trying to say that every single person in Gaza is starving? Come on, Tony. Let's be serious. If aid is going to a third of their population, that's pretty good, don't you think?
Those links do back up my point. My statement was that the UN (and US tax money) has been sending aid to Gaza for decades. But, just to humor you, perhaps I will do a bit more research and see what else I can find.
I don't imagine that you have well off people in the Gaza strip, therefore YES most if not all are starving. That is why it is a humanitarian crisis. As far as a third of their population getting aid... that is NOT what that link said. There are 1.5 million Palestinians in the GAZA strip alone. That article said four hundred thousand people from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank as well as Gaza. So obviously there is nowhere near four hundred thousand people in GAZA receiving aid from the U.N.
Phil, you don't have to say sh it like "Just to humor you". There is no need for this to be confrontational between us, we are just discussing all this. No animosity here bro'. However I will read any and every link you post. Let's just say there are TOO many innocent women, children and even males (who don't support Hamas) who are being collectively punished by Israel, because Palestinians's dared to democratically elect Hamas as the government. That was the dumbest thing the people there ever did. It just played right into Israel's hand, but they were trying to make a strong statement against the PLO who had let them down time after time.
oh. and it's Doug bro', Tony is that Alien fella , LOL.
Also, did you just say that they are being held hostage? I was under the impression they wanted to be there...
That was a figure of speech. What would you refer to it as. They certainly cannot move around as they wish, they can't even use certain roads. They are also not allowed to come and go from the Gaza strip except on occassion with the proper paperwork and if they are fortunate enough to not run into a Border Gaurd who would rather harras and belittle them then let them pass. Yes, I would say that is being held hostage, what do you call it?
oops! sorry! Got the names mixed up. Seriously, my bad.
I'm not deliberately being confrontational, btw. More like sarcastic. I find this issue extremely frustrating because liberals truly see Israel as this awful, hate-mongering, evil group wanting to kill the Palestinians. Frankly, it truly is the other way around, as pretty much all Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, and a whole slew more of elected or otherwise governmental figures publicly call for Israel to be wiped out, or privately support it with money and weapons. (Please, for God's sake do not make me dig up quotes or propaganda for that. This is simply the truth). That said, sure it sucks that a lot of Palestinians have to suffer for their governments ineptitude and violent behavior, but that is how history has always been with the individual - they are held to the standard of their government - especially elected governments. Frankly, Israel always backs down when the US puts pressure on them. If they had it their way, they would have finished the take-over of the West Bank a long time ago. They have listened to reason many times over - their enemies would NEVER have considered stopping during their invasions into Jerusalem years ago. The intention was to destroy all of Israel. Period.
And even if Israel wanted to help the individual Palestinian, how would you suggest they do so while maintaining their self defense? Again, you need to look at Israel as if they are a ferocious animal backed into a corner. They have been that way since their founding after WWII, and more than once the countries surrounding them have invaded. They are rarely the aggressor - typically they are reacting to suicide bombings or artillery strikes on Israeli citizens.
If "most, if not all" are starving, why have we not read this in the news? Where is the outpouring of support from Egypt, Iran, etc? Or the UN? As I stated, there are already relief efforts into the West Bank and Gaza, there is no humanitarian crisis that need a "peace flotilla." Israel warned them they would board them and confiscate the boat - they kept coming. It was DELIBERATE contact with Israel, and deliberately violent as we see from the video. What kind of peaceful group brings pipes, firebombs, knives, and a metal rods? THEY DON'T. Again, this was not meant to be peaceful, it was meant to be the first to break the blockade. If what I read is correct - and Israel is loosening the blockade, the "flotilla" served it's purpose: to loosen the blockade to allow secret weapons to be brought in. The secret tunnels Hamas uses to smuggle in weapons are not large enough - by boat is the next best option to get large weapons in.
oops! sorry! Got the names mixed up. Seriously, my bad.
I'm not deliberately being confrontational, btw. More like sarcastic. I find this issue extremely frustrating because liberals truly see Israel as this awful, hate-mongering, evil group wanting to kill the Palestinians. Frankly, it truly is the other way around, as pretty much all Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, and a whole slew more of elected or otherwise governmental figures publicly call for Israel to be wiped out, or privately support it with money and weapons. (Please, for God's sake do not make me dig up quotes or propaganda for that. This is simply the truth). That said, sure it sucks that a lot of Palestinians have to suffer for their governments ineptitude and violent behavior, but that is how history has always been with the individual - they are held to the standard of their government - especially elected governments. Frankly, Israel always backs down when the US puts pressure on them. If they had it their way, they would have finished the take-over of the West Bank a long time ago. They have listened to reason many times over - their enemies would NEVER have considered stopping during their invasions into Jerusalem years ago. The intention was to destroy all of Israel. Period.
And even if Israel wanted to help the individual Palestinian, how would you suggest they do so while maintaining their self defense? Again, you need to look at Israel as if they are a ferocious animal backed into a corner. They have been that way since their founding after WWII, and more than once the countries surrounding them have invaded. They are rarely the aggressor - typically they are reacting to suicide bombings or artillery strikes on Israeli citizens.
Well I was with you there for a minute. Not that I was agreeing with you but I could see the point you were making. Then you went and said that last sentence and we are oceans apart again. If you see the Palestinians as the aggressors when the Israeli's are occupying their territory, treating the whole Palestinian population worse then the worst people treat their dogs, cutting down Olive groves which have been growing for hundreds of years for no purpose whatsoever, not allowing Palestinians to rebuild the Gaza strip after they blew it to hell including a sewage treatment plant, killing over a thousand civilians during Operation Cast Lead, harrassment, humiliation, and most recently boarding ships in International waters to prevent others from helping where they will not. Than I guess we have a very different idea of the word aggressor. Can you tell me the last time you heard of a suicide bomber actually killing an Israeli, or does that even matter. Because it has happened, that is all the justification for Israel to continue this collective punishment forever? It is not just a few people here at these forums who are lining up against the Israeli's, it is becoming a larger portion of the world each day. That says something. The world has been patient with this situation for decades and has finally lost patience with Israel because they are not looking for solutions, they are quite satisfied with the status quo. The few Israeli citizens who are victims of the oh so acurate backyard rockets is a small price to pay for the occupation of anothers land.
What I think should happen is for a UN Peace keeping force to be placed between them, the Israeli's to leave Palestinian territory and have an enforced peace until such time as they can come to some negotiated agreements. There were UN Peace keepers in the general region up until I believe about 10 years ago. I know this because the Isreali's fired artillary shells at a UN Observation Post for over 3 hours while the UN Observers inside the outpost continually called on the radio asking for them to stop, because they were firing on a UN Observation Post and these men did not want to be killed. The Isreali's did stop firing... after blowing the bunker to hell killing three UN Observers including a Canadian. The Isreali's claimed to be firing at Palsetinian militants who were using the outpost for cover. So they killed innocent people because in their eyes there was an enemy to netralized. Sounds very civilized and Peace loving to me alright. Like firing on Hosptials, and UN food storage wharehouses, using White Phosphorus shells on civilians, and on and on and on. This is not a good guy bad guy situation, both sides have done atrocious things and THAT is what I would like to see come to an end. I am not anti Isreal, nor pro Palestinian, in general. I just want to see this BS end so the people from both country's can get on with raising their kids and living life, and that goes for all people from both sides.
Good point on the suicide bombings....and the trouble is that if Isreal started using the same tactics, the same peopel arguing for them now would say..."its about time, an eye for an eye is what they should be doing". Its so easy to say Palestinians and think all of them are the villians, the same way millions of Germans were grouped into being "****'s" during and after WWII. Those men and women were shunned, thrown out of countries, and sometimes killed or commit suicide because they happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time and their ideas and values were not taken into account. I AM CERTAIN, the same can be said about hundreds or thousands of Palestinians although we group them all as terrorists and demonize their desire to the same free state we made for Isreal.
I have to say that the only things that make the news are things that are either on video or many photos of it. News these days are not what they were 40 years ago... There wasn't much coverage on the BP spill until there were oil covered birds on film.
On the news tonight, one of the Canadians who were on board that ship claims that the Israeli's were firing from the ropes and from the helicopter from above. He also said that the Israeli's would not even allow people to use the bathroom while they were in custody, a total of 15 hours.
Ealier in the day it was reported that at least one of those killed was shot thru the top of the head, and witnesses claim there was shooting from the hellicopter. Also, it should be stated that the boat with the killings, was not carrying cargo, that was on the other boats. I know several here have stated that these people attacked the soldiers, however the "attack" was on the part of the IDF. They were the ones who boarded a ship in international waters. To then claim that they were attacked, certainly follows a pattern of the Israelis always trying to put themselves in the role of the victims, while the death toll always piles up on the side of the "attackers". Perception is a funny thing, or in the case of the Middle East... a tragic one.
oops! sorry! Got the names mixed up. Seriously, my bad.
I'm not deliberately being confrontational, btw. More like sarcastic. I find this issue extremely frustrating because liberals truly see Israel as this awful, hate-mongering, evil group wanting to kill the Palestinians. Frankly, it truly is the other way around, as pretty much all Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, and a whole slew more of elected or otherwise governmental figures publicly call for Israel to be wiped out, or privately support it with money and weapons. (Please, for God's sake do not make me dig up quotes or propaganda for that. This is simply the truth). That said, sure it sucks that a lot of Palestinians have to suffer for their governments ineptitude and violent behavior, but that is how history has always been with the individual - they are held to the standard of their government - especially elected governments. Frankly, Israel always backs down when the US puts pressure on them. If they had it their way, they would have finished the take-over of the West Bank a long time ago. They have listened to reason many times over - their enemies would NEVER have considered stopping during their invasions into Jerusalem years ago. The intention was to destroy all of Israel. Period.
And even if Israel wanted to help the individual Palestinian, how would you suggest they do so while maintaining their self defense? Again, you need to look at Israel as if they are a ferocious animal backed into a corner. They have been that way since their founding after WWII, and more than once the countries surrounding them have invaded. They are rarely the aggressor - typically they are reacting to suicide bombings or artillery strikes on Israeli citizens.
This pretty muchs sums exactly how I feel about the situation. Very well stated.
Regardless of how you feel the world came to be formed ( not wanting to step on any toes or start a religious debate) I find it amusing that mankind has decided to divide the land and seas into this is yours and this is mine and in the words of "the sniper" "I Keellllll You!" if you come here or go there. Just a musing but most cultures/peoples have a God or some Superior being they worship ... and somehow they feel its OK with their particular God to kill each other over a difference of opinion ... and yes it all boils down to a difference of opinion...it most cases the difference of opinion is my religion is correct and your an ignorant heathern ! Just sayin ...
Did you know the Israelis boarded 5 other ships peacefully on the same day?
Gentlemen, it does not surprise me in the least the irony of Vulchor and Laker bringing up Israel causing civilian casualties. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of rockets Hamas fired into Israeli territory last year? They were not aimed at military personnel. I am just baffled that you would down-play that! A few rockets landing randomly? You are BLIND! These rockets kill civilians - that is why they launch them! Death and fear is their goal, and the only reason they stopped is because Israel invaded and killed a ton of terrorists.
I have never stated that Israel is perfect - they have made MANY mistakes, and they have certainly caused civilian casualties, and they have certainly done stupid things like bulldozing houses and apparently olive trees. But you are absolutely out of your f-ing minds if you would rather have Palestine or Iran in charge over there. Out of your minds.
Once again, this flotilla was designed for one thing: to force Israel to board their ships in the hopes of loosening the blockade. The underground tunnels Hamas has build in order to sneak in weapons are not large enough to allow the weapons they want in Gaza. Their next best option is by boat. Thousands of tons of weapons and explosives have already been confiscated (the person speaking in the video above even named the ships for you!) by boat with Iranian backing. It will get worse if Israel does not stop them from coming.
All happily provided by the IDF. Thought you would like those Gypsy. I preferred the ones the IDF confiscated, but before they could they were broadcasted a few times. They have all disappeared now. How convenient. Oh well they have been telling the story to the faithful for decades and the faithful lap it up. The reports coming from the Canadian today who was on the ship tells us the the IDF were firing from the helicopter and at least one of those pesky, Taliban backed, left wing radical islamist fundamentalist, activist was shot in the top of the head. But hey they deserved it.
Did you know the Israelis boarded 5 other ships peacefully on the same day?
Gentlemen, it does not surprise me in the least the irony of Vulchor and Laker bringing up Israel causing civilian casualties. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of rockets Hamas fired into Israeli territory last year? They were not aimed at military personnel. I am just baffled that you would down-play that! A few rockets landing randomly? You are BLIND! These rockets kill civilians - that is why they launch them! Death and fear is their goal, and the only reason they stopped is because Israel invaded and killed a ton of terrorists.
I have never stated that Israel is perfect - they have made MANY mistakes, and they have certainly caused civilian casualties, and they have certainly done stupid things like bulldozing houses and apparently olive trees. But you are absolutely out of your f-ing minds if you would rather have Palestine or Iran in charge over there. Out of your minds.
Once again, this flotilla was designed for one thing: to force Israel to board their ships in the hopes of loosening the blockade. The underground tunnels Hamas has build in order to sneak in weapons are not large enough to allow the weapons they want in Gaza. Their next best option is by boat. Thousands of tons of weapons and explosives have already been confiscated (the person speaking in the video above even named the ships for you!) by boat with Iranian backing. It will get worse if Israel does not stop them from coming.
I asked you yesterday if you knew when the last person was killed by a suicide bomber... no response. Now today it is thousands and thousands of rockets, so when was the last Israeli killed by a rocket? I am going to drop out of this discussion now because it is causing me far too much stress. I don't want to start saying what I think of some of the responses and the total fu cking lack od respect for human life, NOT JUST A FU CKING ISRAELI LIFE !
Too many hard feelings here to continue, with more of this BS. This kind of stuff affects me very deeply, and I just can't deal with this ignorance, intolerance and outright lies that are being spread here. I'm out.
Regardless of how you feel the world came to be formed ( not wanting to step on any toes or start a religious debate) I find it amusing that mankind has decided to divide the land and seas into this is yours and this is mine and in the words of "the sniper" "I Keellllll You!" if you come here or go there. Just a musing but most cultures/peoples have a God or some Superior being they worship ... and somehow they feel its OK with their particular God to kill each other over a difference of opinion ... and yes it all boils down to a difference of opinion...it most cases the difference of opinion is my religion is correct and your an ignorant heathern ! Just sayin ...
Well said Gene. Leave it to you to see right through the sh it and be able to grasp the reality of what is the core of this and many other conflicts. Well said sir, you have my utmost respect.
So as I watched the nightly news last night...and no not MSNBC, I see that a few of these citizens were killed by either being shot through the top the head while an Isreali repelled down----and another was shot 8 or 9 times. So unarmed civilians caused this much trouble to the Isrealis huh? So much they figured they ought to kill them before they ever boarded the ship...just to be on the safe side I guess.
Regardless of how you feel the world came to be formed ( not wanting to step on any toes or start a religious debate) I find it amusing that mankind has decided to divide the land and seas into this is yours and this is mine and in the words of "the sniper" "I Keellllll You!" if you come here or go there. Just a musing but most cultures/peoples have a God or some Superior being they worship ... and somehow they feel its OK with their particular God to kill each other over a difference of opinion ... and yes it all boils down to a difference of opinion...it most cases the difference of opinion is my religion is correct and your an ignorant heathern ! Just sayin ...
Well said Gene. Leave it to you to see right through the sh it and be able to grasp the reality of what is the core of this and many other conflicts. Well said sir, you have my utmost respect.
Thanks bro' . I honestly believe mankind is a little too full of itself .
Comments
Phil, you don't have to say sh it like "Just to humor you". There is no need for this to be confrontational between us, we are just discussing all this. No animosity here bro'. However I will read any and every link you post. Let's just say there are TOO many innocent women, children and even males (who don't support Hamas) who are being collectively punished by Israel, because Palestinians's dared to democratically elect Hamas as the government. That was the dumbest thing the people there ever did. It just played right into Israel's hand, but they were trying to make a strong statement against the PLO who had let them down time after time.
oh. and it's Doug bro', Tony is that Alien fella , LOL.
I'm not deliberately being confrontational, btw. More like sarcastic. I find this issue extremely frustrating because liberals truly see Israel as this awful, hate-mongering, evil group wanting to kill the Palestinians. Frankly, it truly is the other way around, as pretty much all Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, and a whole slew more of elected or otherwise governmental figures publicly call for Israel to be wiped out, or privately support it with money and weapons. (Please, for God's sake do not make me dig up quotes or propaganda for that. This is simply the truth). That said, sure it sucks that a lot of Palestinians have to suffer for their governments ineptitude and violent behavior, but that is how history has always been with the individual - they are held to the standard of their government - especially elected governments. Frankly, Israel always backs down when the US puts pressure on them. If they had it their way, they would have finished the take-over of the West Bank a long time ago. They have listened to reason many times over - their enemies would NEVER have considered stopping during their invasions into Jerusalem years ago. The intention was to destroy all of Israel. Period.
And even if Israel wanted to help the individual Palestinian, how would you suggest they do so while maintaining their self defense? Again, you need to look at Israel as if they are a ferocious animal backed into a corner. They have been that way since their founding after WWII, and more than once the countries surrounding them have invaded. They are rarely the aggressor - typically they are reacting to suicide bombings or artillery strikes on Israeli citizens.
What I think should happen is for a UN Peace keeping force to be placed between them, the Israeli's to leave Palestinian territory and have an enforced peace until such time as they can come to some negotiated agreements. There were UN Peace keepers in the general region up until I believe about 10 years ago. I know this because the Isreali's fired artillary shells at a UN Observation Post for over 3 hours while the UN Observers inside the outpost continually called on the radio asking for them to stop, because they were firing on a UN Observation Post and these men did not want to be killed. The Isreali's did stop firing... after blowing the bunker to hell killing three UN Observers including a Canadian. The Isreali's claimed to be firing at Palsetinian militants who were using the outpost for cover. So they killed innocent people because in their eyes there was an enemy to netralized. Sounds very civilized and Peace loving to me alright. Like firing on Hosptials, and UN food storage wharehouses, using White Phosphorus shells on civilians, and on and on and on. This is not a good guy bad guy situation, both sides have done atrocious things and THAT is what I would like to see come to an end. I am not anti Isreal, nor pro Palestinian, in general. I just want to see this BS end so the people from both country's can get on with raising their kids and living life, and that goes for all people from both sides.
Ealier in the day it was reported that at least one of those killed was shot thru the top of the head, and witnesses claim there was shooting from the hellicopter. Also, it should be stated that the boat with the killings, was not carrying cargo, that was on the other boats. I know several here have stated that these people attacked the soldiers, however the "attack" was on the part of the IDF. They were the ones who boarded a ship in international waters. To then claim that they were attacked, certainly follows a pattern of the Israelis always trying to put themselves in the role of the victims, while the death toll always piles up on the side of the "attackers". Perception is a funny thing, or in the case of the Middle East... a tragic one.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=52&x_article=1859
Did you know the Israelis boarded 5 other ships peacefully on the same day?
Gentlemen, it does not surprise me in the least the irony of Vulchor and Laker bringing up Israel causing civilian casualties. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands of rockets Hamas fired into Israeli territory last year? They were not aimed at military personnel. I am just baffled that you would down-play that! A few rockets landing randomly? You are BLIND! These rockets kill civilians - that is why they launch them! Death and fear is their goal, and the only reason they stopped is because Israel invaded and killed a ton of terrorists.
I have never stated that Israel is perfect - they have made MANY mistakes, and they have certainly caused civilian casualties, and they have certainly done stupid things like bulldozing houses and apparently olive trees. But you are absolutely out of your f-ing minds if you would rather have Palestine or Iran in charge over there. Out of your minds.
Once again, this flotilla was designed for one thing: to force Israel to board their ships in the hopes of loosening the blockade. The underground tunnels Hamas has build in order to sneak in weapons are not large enough to allow the weapons they want in Gaza. Their next best option is by boat. Thousands of tons of weapons and explosives have already been confiscated (the person speaking in the video above even named the ships for you!) by boat with Iranian backing. It will get worse if Israel does not stop them from coming.
Too many hard feelings here to continue, with more of this BS. This kind of stuff affects me very deeply, and I just can't deal with this ignorance, intolerance and outright lies that are being spread here. I'm out.
Thanks bro' . I honestly believe mankind is a little too full of itself .