I would venture to say the lack of a true free market has lead to this crisis. Saving idiots from themselves only leads to the thriving of bad buisnesses. The government involvement in private enterprise is just poison.
If what you mean by this is that we (taxpayers) should never have had to bail out the pyramid schemers that brought their companies to ruin, I'm definetly with you. Some, however, seem to think the only rule should be Let the Buyer Beware, and that's not so good.
thats a good point.
though the buyer SHOULD beware, it is still the job of the government to uphold the rights of the individual. things like fraud, bait and switch schemes, etc that clearly violate the rights of the individual should be illegal. however, if you buy a house you cant afford, buy stocks and watch them go down, accumulate more debt than you can handle, or make a poor investment but are fully aware of your risk then there is no problem. the housing crisis did have a lot to do with bad policy, but there was a good portion of stupidity of the people out there as well. the banks should have let these stupid people know that they could not afford to buy a house. the banks however did not care if they could or not because we had Government agencies (Freddie and Fanny) that would come in and buy up toxic assets (an attempt to regulate out risk and stupidity) . if toxic assets werent going to be bought then its a fairly decent argument that the banks would have been more careful about who they lent to thus preventing this crisis.
it is not possible to protect people from their own stupidity. it is more reasonable to protect the peoples rights from fraud, theft, corruption, etc.
Agreed. I was amazed a few years back when my youngest sister was buying her first house. She has a decent job with a well-known corporation, but is NOT rolling in cash. She's very frugal, tends to save at least half the cost of a new car before borrowing on the rest, etc. She looked carefully at the market, we discussed it, I voiced my opinion that the lunacy couldn't last forever, and that sooner or later there would come a leveling time that would leave lot's of folks paying 100G on what was really a 50G house. She found something that suited her, she's happy, agent's happy, seller's happy, Bank isn't happy. They argued "We've looked at this and you could afford payments on a much larger house." She explained that she was perfectly capable of understanding the math, and no, she couldn't afford much bigger payments. She had to get up and walk out the door before the bank finally agreed to loan her LESS than what they wanted her to borrow. Couple years later, BOOM, and she's still in her house, with her affordable payments, unlike so many others. I guess my point is that there was plenty of stupidity to go around, from certain elements in the government demanding that banks loan to unworthy borrowers, "so they can live the dream of having a home", to the over-eager lenders wanting to make the big sale, to the easily influenced young buyers who believe what the "experts" tell them. BTW, when I first had "the dream" of owning a home, I had to put my $ on the line in the form of > 10% of the value in my hard-earned cash. I think things worked better like that, a little skin in the game, y'know? This certainly has been an interesting discussion, perhaps we should send Ms. Pelosi a cigar?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I would venture to say the lack of a true free market has lead to this crisis. Saving idiots from themselves only leads to the thriving of bad buisnesses. The government involvement in private enterprise is just poison.
If what you mean by this is that we (taxpayers) should never have had to bail out the pyramid schemers that brought their companies to ruin, I'm definetly with you. Some, however, seem to think the only rule should be Let the Buyer Beware, and that's not so good.
it is not possible to protect people from their own stupidity. it is more reasonable to protect the peoples rights from fraud, theft, corruption, etc.
But govt MUST protect the stupid, they are the ones that keep the pelosis, dodds, reeds, franks, obamas and the like in office despite all the overwhelming evidence they are economic wrecking balls.
The really sad part is america used to be such a charitable place, you didn't need government handouts because you neighbors, relatives, and community helped each other out. Now that we're headed towards a total govenment run life charity has in large part died. I know my personal donation habbits have suffered because I'm unsure about life and more so my kids lives. I feel being greedy with whats mine is the best at this point so maybe I can give my children a good chunk when I go because headed down this path we're on keeping 50 cents on every dollar is a very conservative estimate. Tax and spend democrats really care about the future?
A note on the stupid people... no one's helping them out, the only thing they learn is that they can be as piss ignorant as they want because there is a safety net and that won't ever have to suffer due to a poor decision. Hard to learn anything when there are no consequences.
A note on the stupid people... no one's helping them out, the only thing they learn is that they can be as piss ignorant as they want because there is a safety net and that won't ever have to suffer due to a poor decision. Hard to learn anything when there are no consequences.
Yeah, and just think of all those kid's of stupid people who also deserve to "LEARN" that through bad choices or not enough education or even just plain laziness of mom and dad... they... the "stupid peoples children" also deserve a future of poverty and no hope. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, particularly in such an advanced civilization as the US.
A note of my own. People who use name calling or labels to belittle a person or group of people to talk badly about... only show their own ignorance. A question... Is a "stupid" persons' child automatically a "stupid child" or do they at least get a chance to become someone worthwhile before someone as knowledgeable as yourself labels them as "Stupid" too, and therefore worthy or being written off as well?
A note on the stupid people... no one's helping them out, the only thing they learn is that they can be as piss ignorant as they want because there is a safety net and that won't ever have to suffer due to a poor decision. Hard to learn anything when there are no consequences.
Yeah, and just think of all those kid's of stupid people who also deserve to "LEARN" that through bad choices or not enough education or even just plain laziness of mom and dad... they... the "stupid peoples children" also deserve a future of poverty and no hope. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, particularly in such an advanced civilization as the US.
A note of my own. People who use name calling or labels to belittle a person or group of people to talk badly about... only show their own ignorance. A question... Is a "stupid" persons' child automatically a "stupid child" or do they at least get a chance to become someone worthwhile before someone as knowledgeable as yourself labels them as "Stupid" too, and therefore worthy or being written off as well?
God forbid people be held accountable for their own actions, that's just the work of evil. What would you suggest we do? Take their kids away? Support drug addict parents so they can stay high and raise their children so that they can carry on the family tradition? How about we let poverty correct itself? People who are uncomfortable will do as needed to fix it.
Caring so much about those children how about the grim future of overwhelming tax and eventual riots and violence in the street? There's proof this will eventually happen with our current direction, but hey why let only a few suffer and strive to do better when we can make an entire nation miserable? I suffered some poverty in my youth, I couldn't be happier about it without that experience I would not know what the consequences of not doing my very best were.
At least I'm saying these people can learn from their mistakes, seems less insulting than saying we should make all their decisions for them so they can't fail but hey that's just me.
I'm thinking the biggest problem is still that the lines are not as clearly drawn as many would like to believe. While I may not agree with much of their agenda, personally I think that tax-and-spend is much more responsible than borrow-and-spend. The dems get the credit for being the "economic wrecking ball", and certainly deserve their share of the blame, especially when they follow the lead of wigged out wackadoos like Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, et al., but let's not forget the borrow and spend policies of the Republicans. Reagan grew the government by @ 60-65% during his tenure, and both Bushes followed that lead. If we are to continue and succeed as a culture, Laker's point must be taken seriously. There has to be a framework that allows each individual in his/her own time sufficient opportunity. This is why I disagree totally with the Libertarian Party's notion that the National Parks should all be sold off to resolve the debt. So where will your grandchildren go? Still looking for the middle way here. And that middle way has got to be based on LESS SPENDING no matter whether the ball is swinging left, or right.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
If we are to continue and succeed as a culture, Laker's point must be taken seriously. There has to be a framework that allows each individual in his/her own time sufficient opportunity. This is why I disagree totally with the Libertarian Party's notion that the National Parks should all be sold off to resolve the debt. So where will your grandchildren go? Still looking for the middle way here. And that middle way has got to be based on LESS SPENDING no matter whether the ball is swinging left, or right.
I think you may miss the point of the selling of the national parks arguement. IMO it's more of a statement that every other resource must be exhausted before going into debt. It's really hard to get the opportunity to develope your individualism with the government controlling your decisions ranging from healthcare to retirement to who knows where this oppresion will end headed down this road (Obama's on TV right now talking about internet security because he wants to protect us! it has nothing to do with information flow control). I would recommend some reading for folks who think this will end in anything other than oppresion if not checked and stopped The road to Serfdom
If we are to continue and succeed as a culture, Laker's point must be taken seriously. There has to be a framework that allows each individual in his/her own time sufficient opportunity. This is why I disagree totally with the Libertarian Party's notion that the National Parks should all be sold off to resolve the debt. So where will your grandchildren go? Still looking for the middle way here. And that middle way has got to be based on LESS SPENDING no matter whether the ball is swinging left, or right.
I think you may miss the point of the selling of the national parks arguement. IMO it's more of a statement that every other resource must be exhausted before going into debt. It's really hard to get the opportunity to develope your individualism with the government controlling your decisions ranging from healthcare to retirement to who knows where this oppresion will end headed down this road (Obama's on TV right now talking about internet security because he wants to protect us! it has nothing to do with information flow control). I would recommend some reading for folks who think this will end in anything other than oppresion if not checked and stopped The road to Serfdom
Well, I would agree with the exhausting every resource before going into debt, no arguement about that. I would disagree with the necessity of exhausting every resource in the first place. Unfortunately, that ship sailed long ago. My reference was in regard to our current situation, but, if it were all hypothetical, and we weren't mortgaged for the next three generations, we should certainly have tried everything else first. Of course, we could have just opted not to spend all the money, and all our kids money, and their kids money...didn't happen. Drat!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
A note on the stupid people... no one's helping them out, the only thing they learn is that they can be as piss ignorant as they want because there is a safety net and that won't ever have to suffer due to a poor decision. Hard to learn anything when there are no consequences.
Yeah, and just think of all those kid's of stupid people who also deserve to "LEARN" that through bad choices or not enough education or even just plain laziness of mom and dad... they... the "stupid peoples children" also deserve a future of poverty and no hope. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, particularly in such an advanced civilization as the US.
A note of my own. People who use name calling or labels to belittle a person or group of people to talk badly about... only show their own ignorance. A question... Is a "stupid" persons' child automatically a "stupid child" or do they at least get a chance to become someone worthwhile before someone as knowledgeable as yourself labels them as "Stupid" too, and therefore worthy or being written off as well?
God forbid people be held accountable for their own actions, that's just the work of evil. What would you suggest we do? Take their kids away? Support drug addict parents so they can stay high and raise their children so that they can carry on the family tradition? How about we let poverty correct itself? People who are uncomfortable will do as needed to fix it.
Caring so much about those children how about the grim future of overwhelming tax and eventual riots and violence in the street? There's proof this will eventually happen with our current direction, but hey why let only a few suffer and strive to do better when we can make an entire nation miserable? I suffered some poverty in my youth, I couldn't be happier about it without that experience I would not know what the consequences of not doing my very best were.
At least I'm saying these people can learn from their mistakes, seems less insulting than saying we should make all their decisions for them so they can't fail but hey that's just me.
Did I say all that !!!? LMSAO
Seriously re-read my post. I was commenting on your discussion tactics. Labelling people as stupid or left wing .
I never commented on your opinions, as I don't feel I have to. They speak for themselves. I love it when people put an arguement into my mouth and then argue against it.
Sorry laker I just felt like me saying stupid people was taken out of context... we all do stupid crap once in a while that was what I was refering to.
Sorry laker I just felt like me saying stupid people was taken out of context... we all do stupid crap once in a while that was what I was refering to.
Well the whole thing has brought up an interesting question. If as some here advocate, there was no safety net of any kind, people were expected to look after themselves and their families with no assisstance from the government... One could argue that the parents are responsible for their childrens upbringing... BUT...
If a child of poor, under educated, lazy parents does not get any assisstance from the government, will that not just perpetuate the situation? If nothing is done for this child now, will he not go on to have children of his own in the future and these children will go forward and have more children, none of which have an oppourtunity to become a useful fulfilled person, all because someones great, great, great ,great grandparents were lazy and stupid? Not only does that seem to be a waste of many lives it is also a BIG BIG drain on the resources of the country which seems to be the reason no help was offered in the first place. I guess you can say that you choose to spend the money on police, courts, jails and the cost of keeping these people alive in jail along with the associated costs... OR you can choose to spend some money at an early stage of these childrens lives and possibly prevent some of the tragedies discussed from happening at all. This would save money or at least cost no more money and would produce useful people instead of spending the money only to produce throw away people who others look down on as stupid, lazy, or useless.
This is just a different way of approaching the problem. I am not saying it is THE WAY, I am just putting it out there as something to be considered. If we agree the money will be spent one way or the other, perhaps it is time to look at which is indeed the best way for all involved. IMO
Sorry laker I just felt like me saying stupid people was taken out of context... we all do stupid crap once in a while that was what I was refering to.
Well the whole thing has brought up an interesting question. If as some here advocate, there was no safety net of any kind, people were expected to look after themselves and their families with no assisstance from the government... One could argue that the parents are responsible for their childrens upbringing... BUT...
If a child of poor, under educated, lazy parents does not get any assisstance from the government, will that not just perpetuate the situation? If nothing is done for this child now, will he not go on to have children of his own in the future and these children will go forward and have more children, none of which have an oppourtunity to become a useful fulfilled person, all because someones great, great, great ,great grandparents were lazy and stupid? Not only does that seem to be a waste of many lives it is also a BIG BIG drain on the resources of the country which seems to be the reason no help was offered in the first place. I guess you can say that you choose to spend the money on police, courts, jails and the cost of keeping these people alive in jail along with the associated costs... OR you can choose to spend some money at an early stage of these childrens lives and possibly prevent some of the tragedies discussed from happening at all. This would save money or at least cost no more money and would produce useful people instead of spending the money only to produce throw away people who others look down on as stupid, lazy, or useless.
This is just a different way of approaching the problem. I am not saying it is THE WAY, I am just putting it out there as something to be considered. If we agree the money will be spent one way or the other, perhaps it is time to look at which is indeed the best way for all involved. IMO
I guess the big difference is I believe hardship makes people stronger and more motivated. There used to be a strong bond between community members who helped each other out. The government deciding where your charity goes is highly detrimental to this idea of helping your neighbors and charity all together. I enjoy the oppurtunity to help a lady change her tire, or help the widow neighbor with odd jobs even though she naws my ear off about her doll collection I have absolutely no care about. It seems kinda like I'm rambling and I am but, my point is I see alot of people who need help infront of us being walked around and avoided. I have no proof but I would say alot of people say "you know what, 30%+ of what I did today has went to help people who may or may not deserve it, I'm done helping for today." How about the freedom to help who I choose with my money? Hell how about freedom all together? I'm taxed 30-40% for alot of things I don't/can't/won't use how's that fair to me? Sorry if this makes no sense I'm tired.
Sorry laker I just felt like me saying stupid people was taken out of context... we all do stupid crap once in a while that was what I was refering to.
Well the whole thing has brought up an interesting question. If as some here advocate, there was no safety net of any kind, people were expected to look after themselves and their families with no assisstance from the government... One could argue that the parents are responsible for their childrens upbringing... BUT...
If a child of poor, under educated, lazy parents does not get any assisstance from the government, will that not just perpetuate the situation? If nothing is done for this child now, will he not go on to have children of his own in the future and these children will go forward and have more children, none of which have an oppourtunity to become a useful fulfilled person, all because someones great, great, great ,great grandparents were lazy and stupid? Not only does that seem to be a waste of many lives it is also a BIG BIG drain on the resources of the country which seems to be the reason no help was offered in the first place. I guess you can say that you choose to spend the money on police, courts, jails and the cost of keeping these people alive in jail along with the associated costs... OR you can choose to spend some money at an early stage of these childrens lives and possibly prevent some of the tragedies discussed from happening at all. This would save money or at least cost no more money and would produce useful people instead of spending the money only to produce throw away people who others look down on as stupid, lazy, or useless.
This is just a different way of approaching the problem. I am not saying it is THE WAY, I am just putting it out there as something to be considered. If we agree the money will be spent one way or the other, perhaps it is time to look at which is indeed the best way for all involved. IMO
I guess the big difference is I believe hardship makes people stronger and more motivated. There used to be a strong bond between community members who helped each other out. The government deciding where your charity goes is highly detrimental to this idea of helping your neighbors and charity all together. I enjoy the oppurtunity to help a lady change her tire, or help the widow neighbor with odd jobs even though she naws my ear off about her doll collection I have absolutely no care about. It seems kinda like I'm rambling and I am but, my point is I see alot of people who need help infront of us being walked around and avoided. I have no proof but I would say alot of people say "you know what, 30%+ of what I did today has went to help people who may or may not deserve it, I'm done helping for today." How about the freedom to help who I choose with my money? Hell how about freedom all together? I'm taxed 30-40% for alot of things I don't/can't/won't use how's that fair to me? Sorry if this makes no sense I'm tired.
an awful lot of people living on the streets or in jail may not hold that same opinion. I know what you are saying and I don't wholey disagree. But I was referring to the problems which arise from the situation and other possible solutions or even underlaying causes.
A note on the stupid people... no one's helping them out, the only thing they learn is that they can be as piss ignorant as they want because there is a safety net and that won't ever have to suffer due to a poor decision. Hard to learn anything when there are no consequences.
Western...lord knows I can call names with the best of em...and I see Laker already talked about this post---but I couldnt believe it really......My question, and maybe its just rhetorical is ...who are the stupid people? who are the smart people to make this judgement? is intelligence then based solely on financial success and if so, what if the money is just inherited?do you think this people in the "safety net" are having a great life with their couple hundred bucks a month and food stamps? do you really think if given the opportunity to do better they would choose ignorance and poverty? do you really think they are by-in-large educated enough to realize the complexity of these types of questions?----probably not....because they have been deemed the stupid and ignorant, by who I dont know.
Yeah me and laker already discussed this as you read so.... anyhow, what makes someone stupid is the mismanagement of what they're given, I'm supposed to feel sympathy for someone who makes good money then gets laid off and has not saved anything for such an event? When did americans stopping being self sufficient? (not rhetorical, I indeed want to know) I have a G.E.D and I make pretty good money so I don't want to hear whining about how not everyone can afford a college education. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and take responsibility for your own actions or lack there of. (such as not saving, because surely nothing will ever change and no way I could be without income!) How you huge government people don't understand how this is oppression baffles me. We're being devided and villified (sp?) on BOTH sides lets be honest there's racist on both sides so lets stop playing that game and there's socialist on ..... well never mind that (that was a joke don't get your donkey imprinted panties in a wad) but really I belive we're being devided so strongly for a reason.... Ever heard the saying devide and conquer? All I'm saying is everybody should start taking a little more time to really research who you support and if you're going to support someone who is big government research what big government leads to and the consequences for future generations. Another non rhetorical question for you vulch how come the same constitution that made this country great is no longer needed?
Comments
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
A note of my own. People who use name calling or labels to belittle a person or group of people to talk badly about... only show their own ignorance. A question... Is a "stupid" persons' child automatically a "stupid child" or do they at least get a chance to become someone worthwhile before someone as knowledgeable as yourself labels them as "Stupid" too, and therefore worthy or being written off as well?
God forbid people be held accountable for their own actions, that's just the work of evil. What would you suggest we do? Take their kids away? Support drug addict parents so they can stay high and raise their children so that they can carry on the family tradition? How about we let poverty correct itself? People who are uncomfortable will do as needed to fix it.
Caring so much about those children how about the grim future of overwhelming tax and eventual riots and violence in the street? There's proof this will eventually happen with our current direction, but hey why let only a few suffer and strive to do better when we can make an entire nation miserable? I suffered some poverty in my youth, I couldn't be happier about it without that experience I would not know what the consequences of not doing my very best were.
At least I'm saying these people can learn from their mistakes, seems less insulting than saying we should make all their decisions for them so they can't fail but hey that's just me.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Seriously re-read my post. I was commenting on your discussion tactics. Labelling people as stupid or left wing .
I never commented on your opinions, as I don't feel I have to. They speak for themselves. I love it when people put an arguement into my mouth and then argue against it.
If a child of poor, under educated, lazy parents does not get any assisstance from the government, will that not just perpetuate the situation? If nothing is done for this child now, will he not go on to have children of his own in the future and these children will go forward and have more children, none of which have an oppourtunity to become a useful fulfilled person, all because someones great, great, great ,great grandparents were lazy and stupid? Not only does that seem to be a waste of many lives it is also a BIG BIG drain on the resources of the country which seems to be the reason no help was offered in the first place. I guess you can say that you choose to spend the money on police, courts, jails and the cost of keeping these people alive in jail along with the associated costs... OR you can choose to spend some money at an early stage of these childrens lives and possibly prevent some of the tragedies discussed from happening at all. This would save money or at least cost no more money and would produce useful people instead of spending the money only to produce throw away people who others look down on as stupid, lazy, or useless.
This is just a different way of approaching the problem. I am not saying it is THE WAY, I am just putting it out there as something to be considered. If we agree the money will be spent one way or the other, perhaps it is time to look at which is indeed the best way for all involved. IMO