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Another Krieg Rant...

KriegKrieg Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭
Ok, time to get another debate going...here are some of my recent thoughts:

It is stories like this that make me shake my head and worry about the future of this country. Thomas Sowell highlights in his column the story of a graduating senior at Hunter College High School in New York. Hunter College High School get to select its applicants based on their test scores, so you know you are attracting the very brightest. But at the end of the day, it is still a government school. So this young man starts off his speech at graduation with this line, "'I don't deserve any of this. And neither do you.' The reason? He and his classmates were there because of 'luck and circumstances.'"
You know how much it ruffles my feathers to hear a young person subscribing to this liberal idea that life is based on luck, rather than the choices you make. This is part of the liberal mantra today. This is where you get the endless use of the absurd phrase "the less fortunate." It's all very simple to understand .. so hang on my every word here:

If you can convince our society that people are where the are economically principally because of "luck and circumstances," then just how easy is it for politicians to convince these people that it is the job of the government to iron out the inequities caused by bad luck? Politicians are, after all, just evening out the odds, right?

The more the people become convinced that economic winners and losers are decided by luck rather than by individual effort and responsible decision making, the easier it is for them to not only accept, but to welcome government interference in their lives.

"Long ashes my friends."

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Comments

  • sightunseensightunseen Posts: 2,130 ✭✭
    Interesting points you have made. I agree with what you are saying. However, I do believe that there are people that do deserve the title of "less fortunate" because they experienced a perfect storm of various events that may have significantly set them back in life. What I don't like is that those stories are always highlighted in the news so it gives the impression that this happens to the majority of the population. This, I believe, leads to the widespread belief of "luck and circumstances."

    Blaming everything on luck and circumstances allows the individual to pass the blame on when they should be looking at themselves.
  • bigbgballzbigbgballz Posts: 283
    That is just another excuse for their fu•k ups and corruption,yeah we fuc•ed up cause we were unfortunate,my ass!Thats just my 2 c!
  • havanaalhavanaal Posts: 155 ✭✭
    In principle you're right. But as a business owner and natural conservative social Darwinist, I would be the first to point out that the playing field is indeed skewed to the rich and powerful. Sorry, it's just a fact of life. but I don't trust government to fix it. Nor can it be fixed.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    there is some luck in life.

    however generally speaking, i have found that most people that take the time to learn how to and then do the right thing, the people who work hard, the people who have personal responsibility, the people who dont settle for the minimum, are the people who have the most good luck.


    how do you fix genuine bad luck? you cant.
    and whenever the government tries to, it ends up violating the rights of those who have achieved while playing by the rules.

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Krieg:
    Ok, time to get another debate going...here are some of my recent thoughts:

    It is stories like this that make me shake my head and worry about the future of this country. Thomas Sowell highlights in his column the story of a graduating senior at Hunter College High School in New York. Hunter College High School get to select its applicants based on their test scores, so you know you are attracting the very brightest. But at the end of the day, it is still a government school. So this young man starts off his speech at graduation with this line, "'I don't deserve any of this. And neither do you.' The reason? He and his classmates were there because of 'luck and circumstances.'"
    You know how much it ruffles my feathers to hear a young person subscribing to this liberal idea that life is based on luck, rather than the choices you make. This is part of the liberal mantra today. This is where you get the endless use of the absurd phrase "the less fortunate." It's all very simple to understand .. so hang on my every word here:

    If you can convince our society that people are where the are economically principally because of "luck and circumstances," then just how easy is it for politicians to convince these people that it is the job of the government to iron out the inequities caused by bad luck? Politicians are, after all, just evening out the odds, right?

    The more the people become convinced that economic winners and losers are decided by luck rather than by individual effort and responsible decision making, the easier it is for them to not only accept, but to welcome government interference in their lives.

    I won't even bother with this load. I have not heard anyone exposing the claims you make on behalf of "Liberals" everywhere. Get a grip dewd ! You seem to have something in common with the government that you hate so much anyway... they create "crisis's" so they can fix them. You just started an arguement with yourself and filled in all the holes for both sides.

    I haven't heard ANYONE say that your position in life is based solely on luck !
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    laker1963:

    I haven't heard ANYONE say that your position in life is based solely on luck !
    i do agree that people are not out and out saying the words "everyone's life is based on luck and luck alone"

    i am sick of people telling me how "lucky" i am for having a nice house and a nice car and i am able to smoke expensive cigars or any other luxury good that i partake in.
    i am not "lucky"

    i work very hard at two jobs (until recently it was three). i take the time to understand major decisions before i make them. i have the attitude of "if im going to do something i had better take the time to do it right"
    there is not too much luck there.

    the is a lot of work. there is a lot of effort. there is a lot of sacrifice. i earned everything that i have achieved.

    i think concept being discussed here is more of an attitude than a statement.
  • KriegKrieg Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭
    I got where I am in life today, not because I am lucky, it's because I work my ass off (like many other people on here), this is why I have always hated the phrase "gives back" that phrase implies what I have was given to me, either by luck or some other way...not because I worked for it. I guess my original point is lost on some people and no matter how I try to explain it.

    "Long ashes my friends."

  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I will only make the statement that for the many who are "born into" money they did have the "luck" of having parents with dough. Maybe they worked hard, maybe the kids do and further their success---I am not doubting that is possible. But the majority of wealth in this country stays centered in the same families over generations so to say it is all hard work may be true.....but it may be hard work with little doubt of failure or ruin because you have a security net around you or hard work in a job that was made for you to step into. I dont believe I am arguing a "liberal" side, as I dont think even the most liberal people believe that all people with wealth were "lucky"------just presenting another side.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    wwestern:
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
    Wow, theres a blanket and generally incorrect statement. "Liberals hate success"....its like a bumper sticker for a Palin Party or Teabagger convention----sorry, TEA PARTY ACTIVISTS, lol. I know how fragile the egos can be when name calling goes around.
  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    wwestern:
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
    Wow, theres a blanket and generally incorrect statement. "Liberals hate success"....its like a bumper sticker for a Palin Party or Teabagger convention----sorry, TEA PARTY ACTIVISTS, lol. I know how fragile the egos can be when name calling goes around.
    It's how they get voters lol. "We're gonna punish the folks who take care of buisness and make something of themselves so you can have __________!" As far as name calling have at it hoss. When you're arguing against common sense name calling is just as good of a strategy as any other. When your politics cater to poor people then making sure people stay poor is in your best interest, the more people who depend on your handouts the more votes you have.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Lol-----Its apparent common sense isnt quite so common anymore, continue on the bashing of the "liberals" which makes so many here so happy. Viva Sean Hannity!
  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    Well yet another liberal retort full of ..... well nothing.
    I'm more of a Glenn Beck guy but what ever. :)
  • mrpillowmrpillow Posts: 464
    I think you're both slow, regardless of your political affiliations.


    ;D
  • HaybletHayblet Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭
    so are we going to debate at the herf? lol
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    wwestern:
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
    Wow, theres a blanket and generally incorrect statement. "Liberals hate success"....its like a bumper sticker for a Palin Party or Teabagger convention----sorry, TEA PARTY ACTIVISTS, lol. I know how fragile the egos can be when name calling goes around.
    its not ego at all, i assure you. i am not a tea party member at all. ive never been to one of their gatherings. it is just respect for other peoples opinions on a forum that may have members of that group here.
    we are all brothers of the leaf here; there is no need to insult one another.

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    wwestern:
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
    i disagree with this. ... kinda

    i cant think of many liberals that hate that people are successful.
    but i have seen that many of the modern day extreme leftists hate that you dont share your wealth with everyone equally and think since you have it you mush have gained it through some sort of deception/exploitation of those who are not wealthy.
    plus they feel it is your moral obligation to help others even if you wish to do other things with the money you earn. it can be very socialist in nature. but this is the extreme end of the group.

    i should have quoted Vulchors reply to this as well... (same quote as above, very different points)
    he was right. it was a blanket statement you made. very few blanket statements can hold true.
    the extreme left is a smaller part of the population, much like the extreme right. most of the nation tends to be center to center-right (according to most polls for decades) its probably poor judgment to represent an entire political party by the extremists of its group.



    there really are well intended liberals out there. it may not seem that way to you in these frustrating times, but i assure you, there are.

    ... just as there are well intended conservatives.

    i guess it would just be easier to say: "well intended people"
  • martymcg43martymcg43 Posts: 396
    hmmm... i don't really know where to begin in this debate... some interesting points Krieg. and i agree in some respects. i do believe that the harder you work and the more challenges bested the farther you will go in life. however LUCK does play some part. say i was born with my parents being billionaires. i would have to say that that would be extremely lucky. and in turn i wouldnt really have to do anything at all but be rich. no real work would be involved. say Paris Hilton for example. she's gone far in her life, wealth and fame, without really doing anything at all. but for the "normal folk" we work for what we get. unless i win the lottery... which in turn would be very lucky of me.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    martymcg43:
    hmmm... i don't really know where to begin in this debate... some interesting points Krieg. and i agree in some respects. i do believe that the harder you work and the more challenges bested the farther you will go in life. however LUCK does play some part. say i was born with my parents being billionaires. i would have to say that that would be extremely lucky. and in turn i wouldnt really have to do anything at all but be rich. no real work would be involved. say Paris Hilton for example. she's gone far in her life, wealth and fame, without really doing anything at all. but for the "normal folk" we work for what we get. unless i win the lottery... which in turn would be very lucky of me.
    interesting example.
    Paris's parents worked hard and made the right choices so that their children could have a better life.
    what if she has kids? (God i hope not) she is such a tool, will her kids be lucky or not?
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Thats what I was tryin (and thought I did say) Marty...good point. And Kuz, I did not mean you specifically about the Tea Bagger comment, I know we have talked about that in the past, but in no way was intended toward you or anyone else specifically for that matter.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Thats what I was tryin (and thought I did say) Marty...good point. And Kuz, I did not mean you specifically about the Tea Bagger comment, I know we have talked about that in the past, but in no way was intended toward you or anyone else specifically for that matter.
    i know. no need to drag the past up.

    it does kinda look like i was singling you out when i wasnt trying to. i didnt use a broad enough brush. the last line kinda summed it up:
    "we are all brothers of the leaf here; there is no need to insult one another."

    this is an interesting conversation. id hate to lose interest in it cos someone got mud in the eye.


  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    Not to worry, I love mud------Now since were on the topics of mud (as in wrestling), Paris Hilton, parenting, and interesting conversation....would this be the time to advocate for her foreced sterilzation, so should we wait until she appears more "serious" with a guy? lol..........D@mn I cant stand her.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    Vulchor:
    wwestern:
    Very well said Krieg, liberals absolutely hate success it really hinders the propaganda they spread like disease. Thats why you'll be punished and villified by the left for success.
    Wow, theres a blanket and generally incorrect statement. "Liberals hate success"....its like a bumper sticker for a Palin Party or Teabagger convention----sorry, TEA PARTY ACTIVISTS, lol. I know how fragile the egos can be when name calling goes around.
    its not ego at all, i assure you. i am not a tea party member at all. ive never been to one of their gatherings. it is just respect for other peoples opinions on a forum that may have members of that group here.
    we are all brothers of the leaf here; there is no need to insult one another.

    Edit
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    I have said this so many times here even I am sick of it. Kuzi why was it you never said anything about name calling until Teabaggers came up?
    i was at work for 10 hours. there was a lot said before and after that, all of witch you seem to have ignored. nobody was offended here. in this very thread vulchor and i discussed this very post you quoted and were ok with it on all aspects (as far as i could tell). I even went on to support some concepts of what vulchor said and liberals in general. but you seem to ignore that fact. please take the time to read the subsequent posts.
    laker1963:
    I have said in the past that I find being labelled anything by someone as offensive. The word Liberal is used around here by some as though it were a swear word. Yet not a mention of proper debate rules were made until you got offended? If the guy's in these (I use the term loosely) political discussions can't refrain from school yard tactics when disagreeing with points made, they sure as hell should stop whining about being called names themselves. Like so many other discussions here, one name dropped by Western (this time) and the whole of the discussion goes for a ***.
    you are saying the word "liberal" is offensive... or any label at all?
    i, for one, do not find the word "liberal" offensive. i dont find the word "conservative" offensive. however, if people were calling the liberals "moon bats" or equating the liberals in the US to those who ran the Russian Gulags, i would probably make a similar post. but from "the other side"
    laker1963:


    I am off again. If you guy's ever do want to have an intelligent and serious conversation about politics or your views about other peole and their politics... well THAT would be interesting.
    ... seriously, i thought thats what was actually being accomplished.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Not to worry, I love mud------Now since were on the topics of mud (as in wrestling), Paris Hilton, parenting, and interesting conversation....would this be the time to advocate for her foreced sterilzation, so should we wait until she appears more "serious" with a guy? lol..........D@mn I cant stand her.
    just HER, or as a general policy?
    im ok with paris being fixed like a puppy HA!

    have a bit harder sale with sterilization as a policy.


    that would be opressive government at its worst.

    but back to the conversation at hand....

    paris has the opportunity to do the opposite of what i am doing in my life. I am working hard to move up and gain wealth. things are going well for me (a tad slow but im not complaining) i have had no "luck" on my side as far as being born into a family with cash.
    She has the opposite opportunity. she was "lucky" to a degree because of the situation she was born into. it isnt too far of a reach to think that she has the potential to screw it all up and LOSE her fortune. is that genuine UN-luck, or is that being lazy and making bad decisions?
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I will say, and not simply because Laker and I share more views than I do with many others here....when I use the term teabagger, it is meant with the exact same mocking and negative connotation that most everyone here uses with the word liberal. I do not use it to hurt, it is just my vernacular as liberal is for many people here (or socialist or whatever politically correct BS is spouted out). So while you may claim not to find the term liberal inflammatory or deragatory Kuzi, I am confident many due which is why I continue to throw out Teabagger. As you do not believe labeling a liberal is any real negative, nor do I for the term I use to describe that "movement" of likeminded persons.
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    And indeed I was referring to Paris-----but am open to expanding to others :)
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I will say, and not simply because Laker and I share more views than I do with many others here....when I use the term teabagger, it is meant with the exact same mocking and negative connotation that most everyone here uses with the word liberal. I do not use it to hurt, it is just my vernacular as liberal is for many people here (or socialist or whatever politically correct BS is spouted out). So while you may claim not to find the term liberal inflammatory or deragatory Kuzi, I am confident many due which is why I continue to throw out Teabagger. As you do not believe labeling a liberal is any real negative, nor do I for the term I use to describe that "movement" of likeminded persons.
    i can see how some here use "liberal" as a negative (now that you point it out).

    where is the point where something becomes offensive?

    "liberal" should not be used as a negative. those who use it that way should read up on what a classic liberal is. there are many liberals out there that are liberals, use the title correctly and have much in common with myself.

    i cant speak for anyone else here, but i would never use the term "liberal" as a negative, mainly because i share many of the same views as a classical liberal. it would be offensive to myself.



    ...can we get back to talking about Paris Hilton?
  • VulchorVulchor Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭✭
    I loved the video I admit to having watched...luckily I dont watch anything but her X Rated stuff. I can put the Obama vs Pelosi vs Reid vs Gingrich vs Limbaugh vs Palin stuff aside and make the conident statement the she is what is wrong with out great county. Yet in just a few eye catching ways, also what can be right:)
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    laker1963:
    I have said this so many times here even I am sick of it. Kuzi why was it you never said anything about name calling until Teabaggers came up?
    i was at work for 10 hours. there was a lot said before and after that, all of witch you seem to have ignored. nobody was offended here. in this very thread vulchor and i discussed this very post you quoted and were ok with it on all aspects (as far as i could tell). I even went on to support some concepts of what vulchor said and liberals in general. but you seem to ignore that fact. please take the time to read the subsequent posts.
    laker1963:
    I have said in the past that I find being labelled anything by someone as offensive. The word Liberal is used around here by some as though it were a swear word. Yet not a mention of proper debate rules were made until you got offended? If the guy's in these (I use the term loosely) political discussions can't refrain from school yard tactics when disagreeing with points made, they sure as hell should stop whining about being called names themselves. Like so many other discussions here, one name dropped by Western (this time) and the whole of the discussion goes for a ***.
    you are saying the word "liberal" is offensive... or any label at all?
    i, for one, do not find the word "liberal" offensive. i dont find the word "conservative" offensive. however, if people were calling the liberals "moon bats" or equating the liberals in the US to those who ran the Russian Gulags, i would probably make a similar post. but from "the other side"
    laker1963:


    I am off again. If you guy's ever do want to have an intelligent and serious conversation about politics or your views about other peole and their politics... well THAT would be interesting.
    ... seriously, i thought thats what was actually being accomplished.
    You were too quick Kuzi. I decided to edit my post and stay uninvolved.

    These debates will never change and I should have stuck to my own advice and STFU. I am just too tired of the lame *** that get's said here. If the folks on the right of the political spectrum THINK they are the only ones with the answers then why did the US go from surplus to deficit while under a Right wing party control? After the past 25 years mostly dominated by Republicans... why isn't everything in the US exactly like you guy's seem to think it should be? Why also do you bend over backwards to blame the state of affairs in your country on "LIBERALS". Explain to me how they have so much power they can ruin your country(if you listen to some arguements here) when the Republicans have been in power for so much more time in the last 25 or 30 years?

    Too funny.
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