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election predictions

kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
anybody got em? im not gunna post min until i see what all of you have to say.

i have a list.


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Comments

  • urbinourbino Posts: 4,517
    I never make predictions. Especially about the future.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    I will make a prediction that I can PROMISE you will come true!

    MOST of us will just be glad the damn things are over! haha
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    im not really looking for discussion about the predictions. Im also not looking for me or others to judge the predictions. later today ill post. ...strangely enough i dont have a prediction of the winner.


    urbi... have you ever made a prediction about the past?
  • madurofanmadurofan Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭
    PuroFreak:
    I will make a prediction that I can PROMISE you will come true!

    MOST of us will just be glad the damn things are over! haha
    Agreed.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    madurofan:
    PuroFreak:
    I will make a prediction that I can PROMISE you will come true!

    MOST of us will just be glad the damn things are over! haha
    Agreed.
    for some that also may depend on if your horse won.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    ok i think im gunna post mine. I have reasons for most of these, but im not here to discuss that. I am here to mystify (i hope) everyone with my "powers" to see into the future....


    who am i kiddin. im probably gunna be wrong on a few and right on a few. here we go:

    Obama will Win PA
    McCain will win Ohio

    the day AFTER the election:
    If McCain wins the stock market will go UP but by less than 250 points
    if Obama wins the stock market will go DOWN by more than 250 points.

    If McCain wins there will be accusations of this country being Racist and that the "Republicans stole ANOTHER election"

    The exit polls will be way off no matter who wins.

    I have heard rumors of riots in the streets if Obama Loses. I dont think this will happen anywhere but if it does the cities to watch will be:
    LA, San Fran, Chicago, Cincinnati, and Detroit.
    the further down that list the less likely they are to riot.


    again, it does not matter who wins, but whoever does, this will be a one term Presidency. If Obama Wins a "truer" conservative will win next time and if McCain wins we will be faced with another Obama-like figure running against him.

    lets see how many i get right/wrong.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    I'm thinking Obama will win, and if he does what he says, I'm sure he'll get re-elected. If McCain wins, and that would be tough, I'm sure things won't get any better and I'm sure from his speeches and palin's that they have no plans.. Just my two cents, I'm really looking forward to what will happen.
  • Garen BGaren B Posts: 977
    My prediction is a man in a suit will win, with a vice president that is also dressed nicely backing him up.
  • urbinourbino Posts: 4,517
    I predict kuzi's predictions will be roughly 50% correct.
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    kuzi16:
    Obama will Win PA
    McCain will win Ohio

    Correct

    kuzi16:
    the day AFTER the election:
    If McCain wins the stock market will go UP but by less than 250 points
    if Obama wins the stock market will go DOWN by more than 250 points.
    Incorrect. If McCain wins, the stock market will drop 150+ points. If Obama wins, the stock market will go up 250+ points. I've seen a lot of the CNBC coverage lately, and they make Olbermann look neutral. Wall St. wants a Democrat.

    kuzi16:
    The exit polls will be way off no matter who wins.
    This prediction is non-parameterized, and its correctness cannot be measured.
    kuzi16:
    I have heard rumors of riots in the streets if Obama Loses. I dont think this will happen anywhere but if it does the cities to watch will be:
    LA, San Fran, Chicago, Cincinnati, and Detroit.
    the further down that list the less likely they are to riot.
    I agree with the prediction that there will be no/minimal rioting in the event of an Obama loss.
    kuzi16:
    again, it does not matter who wins, but whoever does, this will be a one term Presidency. If Obama Wins a "truer" conservative will win next time and if McCain wins we will be faced with another Obama-like figure running against him.

    lets see how many i get right/wrong.
    I think both candidates have a good shot at a two-term presidency. This seems to be more a product of good timing than good execution.
  • This is what’s going to happen. If McCain wins he is going to be so excited that his ancient heart will give out and the very inexperienced Sarah Palin will take over. Not good for us. Or if Obama wins he will be assassinated by one of the many extremist groups. Then the very crazy Joe Biden will be running the show. So once again not good for us, either way this election turns out it won’t be good for us. Sorry to break the news to you.
  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,004
    Obama wins PA, obama wins election. Not a bad guy, just not ready for the job and I get the feeling he's a true tax-and-spend if there ever was one.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    dutyje:
    kuzi16:
    the day AFTER the election:
    If McCain wins the stock market will go UP but by less than 250 points
    if Obama wins the stock market will go DOWN by more than 250 points.
    Incorrect. If McCain wins, the stock market will drop 150+ points. If Obama wins, the stock market will go up 250+ points. I've seen a lot of the CNBC coverage lately, and they make Olbermann look neutral. Wall St. wants a Democrat.

    my speculation on this comes down to corporate taxes and capitol gains taxes. if you tax big business more they will not make as much. the time to sell would be before the capitol gains tax goes up. Move the money to something that can not be tracked or taxed as much.

    either way i will be watching both days as much as i can. I requested both off of work. I know i have tuesday off but the day after is still up in the air.


  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Watch out for riots Kuzi! I had a guy from the obama office stop by tonight, nice guy, was just finishing up hitting the neighborhood. But this afternoon, my lady said a guy from the McCain office was walking the street. I do think it's funny that both camps and on the same day hit my street.
  • Big DeanBig Dean Posts: 120
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'm thinking Obama will win, and if he does what he says, I'm sure he'll get re-elected. If McCain wins, and that would be tough, I'm sure things won't get any better and I'm sure from his speeches and palin's that they have no plans.. Just my two cents, I'm really looking forward to what will happen.


    I agree completely.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Big Dean:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'm thinking Obama will win, and if he does what he says, I'm sure he'll get re-elected. If McCain wins, and that would be tough, I'm sure things won't get any better and I'm sure from his speeches and palin's that they have no plans.. Just my two cents, I'm really looking forward to what will happen.


    I agree completely.
    iduno... if he raises taxes on business those businesses will have less money to pay out and hire more people. then unemployment goes high enough then it could spiral down and NOT get re-elected. I mean seriously, when has there ever been a tax increase that has fixed a recession? yes obama will cut taxes on middle class at first but when the bush tax cuts expire in 2010... isnt that an increase? ... for the middle class? so then the middle class has more taxes, the upper class has higher taxes and so does business. this isnt how to spur growth. jobs and commerce make money and real wealth, not taxes and redistribution.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    from here
    With the US election five days away, Mr Murdoch criticised Senator Obama's tax policies as "crazy", particularly his plan to hand out tax rebates to most Americans and to increase taxes for people earning more than $250,000. He said Senator Obama's promises to give tax rebates to 95per cent of Americans was "rubbish".

    "Forty per cent (of the US population) don't pay taxes, so how can he give them a tax cut?" he said. "But you can give them a welfare cheque which he has promised - a grant of $500 - which will disappear very fast. It's not going to turn the economy around at all."
    and
    Mr Murdoch said Senator Obama would make the situation worse if he implemented the policies he had promised the American union movement, which represented only 12 per cent of the US workforce, most of them government workers.

    "We have the historical precedent of Smoot-Hawley," he said.

    "I can't imagine he would do anything as crazy as that. But anything in that direction could add to all sorts of tensions in the world financial system and the world trading system and eventually all the way down to employment. I am not saying all these things are going to happen, but we are living in a dangerous period."

    He said the whole world should "fight like hell" for freer trade and the success of the Doha Round of trade talks.

    ...not to mention the comment to bankrupt new coal power plants because they pollute

    something just feels very wrong here.
    not that they feel so right with McCain, but Obama will not (can not) fix a damn thing. He may make it worse. McCain also wont/cant fix anything but i feel that he has a better understanding of the uslesness that he represents.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,131 ✭✭
    kuzi16:
    Big Dean:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'm thinking Obama will win, and if he does what he says, I'm sure he'll get re-elected. If McCain wins, and that would be tough, I'm sure things won't get any better and I'm sure from his speeches and palin's that they have no plans.. Just my two cents, I'm really looking forward to what will happen.


    I agree completely.
    iduno... if he raises taxes on business those businesses will have less money to pay out and hire more people. then unemployment goes high enough then it could spiral down and NOT get re-elected. I mean seriously, when has there ever been a tax increase that has fixed a recession? yes obama will cut taxes on middle class at first but when the bush tax cuts expire in 2010... isnt that an increase? ... for the middle class? so then the middle class has more taxes, the upper class has higher taxes and so does business. this isnt how to spur growth. jobs and commerce make money and real wealth, not taxes and redistribution.
    You are very right Kuzi, also his tax plan will be giving money to people who pay absolutly no taxes as it is. This is just more useless spending and a perfect example of "redistribution." Gotta spread that wealth around!

    Also if our country faces another attack, as Sen. Biden claims we will, I don't believe Sen. Obama has the backbone to lead our nation and strike back. This will also hurt Sen. Obama's re-election bid should he win.

    I believe McCain will win the election partially due to the Bradley Effect. It is very trendy to say "I'm voting for Obama," but a lot of people once behind that curtain will start questioning things like: "Do I really want someone that has no problem "bankrupting the coal industry"?" and "How close were his ties with Bill Ayers?" And of course there is racism which as sad as it is to say, will prevent some people from voting for him. That is of course the wrong reason to make your choice, but it will happen.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    i wont predict a McCain win.... but not an Obama win either. I will not be surprised if either gets in.

    as far as racism...
    it may be a factor but i doubt it as big as some claim. I think that since most people live a conservative lifestyle (not that we are all conservative in nature but most people are not gay, most people (generally speaking) want less taxes, most people are willing to work for what they want, most people want others to leave them alone, etc...) they are more likely to vote McCain while in the booth. they relate a bit more to lower taxes and what not. ...im also not saying that it is enough to make it a win.


    it may not be racism driving people away from Obama but if he loses thats what will be blamed.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    Big Dean:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'm thinking Obama will win, and if he does what he says, I'm sure he'll get re-elected. If McCain wins, and that would be tough, I'm sure things won't get any better and I'm sure from his speeches and palin's that they have no plans.. Just my two cents, I'm really looking forward to what will happen.


    I agree completely.
    iduno... if he raises taxes on business those businesses will have less money to pay out and hire more people. then unemployment goes high enough then it could spiral down and NOT get re-elected. I mean seriously, when has there ever been a tax increase that has fixed a recession? yes obama will cut taxes on middle class at first but when the bush tax cuts expire in 2010... isnt that an increase? ... for the middle class? so then the middle class has more taxes, the upper class has higher taxes and so does business. this isnt how to spur growth. jobs and commerce make money and real wealth, not taxes and redistribution.

    Ummm Kuzi, if what you are saying is true then should your country not be in really good shape right now. Your arguement about all of Bush's Tax cuts doesn't hold water. If it did your country wouldn't be tanking right now and bringing down the economy of most other countries around the world. Keeping the rich and corporations dripping with wealth while the remainder of the country pays the bills has been the way most "rich" country's pay their tax bills for decades. So why are we all in such a Piss Poor condition right now? Like the Steve Winnwood song... We should all be back in the high life again. Bush's policies and the monetary policies of most industrialized nations have failed miserably and when this is all said and done those old institutions will not look the same as the day before this all started to unravel. Governments are supposed towork for everybody... not just the rich, we can all see very clearly that doesn't work.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    id like to point out that after the bush tax cuts took hold there were 52 consecutive months of job growth. ...more than any other president in history.


    id still like to point out that saying my lower taxes argument "doesnt hold water" itself doesnt hold water. if you can tell me a time where a Tax increase has ever improved the economy then ill second guess myself. If Taxes have no effect on the economy at all then i would rather have the money that i worked for in my pocket.


    just another thought: If i am out of work and i go to a rich guy and hold a gun to him and say "im out of work i am taking $100" i go to jail. ...when the government does the same thing out of my paycheck its "fair" and "caring"

    both are taking money that i worked hard for. MY money.

    our current situation has nothing to do with taxes. It has everything to do with government intervention in an industry that it has no business in, with roots all the way back to carter, nay, the New Deal. also, every economy has ups and downs no matter where the tax rate is set. on average, if people have more money in their pocket they can spend more and that helps the economy. Taxes take money out of pockets.

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    Governments are supposed towork for everybody... not just the rich, we can all see very clearly that doesn't work.
    the government IS supposed to work for everyone. It does that best by keeping its nose out of the lives of the people in the country. Everyone can succeed. the higher the Taxes however, the harder it is to create real wealth in the private sector. taking money out of the hands of people and putting in the hands of government will not grow the economy. the private sector runs the economy. they government can only make it worse. the best thing the government can do to help the economy is stay out of the way. Let me succeed and keep the money that i earn.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    laker1963:
    Governments are supposed towork for everybody... not just the rich, we can all see very clearly that doesn't work.
    the government IS supposed to work for everyone. It does that best by keeping its nose out of the lives of the people in the country. Everyone can succeed. the higher the Taxes however, the harder it is to create real wealth in the private sector. taking money out of the hands of people and putting in the hands of government will not grow the economy. the private sector runs the economy. they government can only make it worse. the best thing the government can do to help the economy is stay out of the way. Let me succeed and keep the money that i earn.

    I don't disagree with that point. But to be honest everybody DOES pay taxes, so the government DOES redistribute wealth (tax money collected from ALL the people) all the time. Every time there is a Tax cut that is wealth redistribution. Every time there is a tax increase that is wealth redistribution. If the private sector was capable and reliable enough to run th eeconomy there would NOT be the mess that there is right now. The rich only reinvest money into the system when they stand to make a suitable profit from that investment. Governments sometimes have to invest in programs which will show no return monetarily, (mass transit) but obviously has a "pay back" to society. The rich would not even consider the fact that Mass Transit can not only save money but also help to solve other issues such as environmental concerns. Why, because there is no money to be made. Under these circumstances it is OK for a government to invest money ( the people's money) into this type of venture. That is wealth redistribution.
    Funny how advocates of the free enterprize system believe that government should NOT get involved and that the private sector should run the economy. So why are the PEOPLE being asked to pay for these bailout packages that are turning up all over the world. Why are the rich folk, and or corporations like Mobile Oil (just reported $14.8 BILLION in 3rd quarter profits) not ponying up to the bar and offering to bail the system out? All of a suden free enterprise looks suspiciously like a social system. Corporate Welfare seems to be OK... help bail out the banks so they can continue to throw people out of their homes.
    As for the comment that everyone can succeed... well that sure does SOUND good doesn't it? Reality? NOT !
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    laker1963:

    The rich only reinvest money into the system when they stand to make a suitable profit from that investment.
    thats true. and while they are making hte profit by reinvesting they are creating jobs because they have to hire people to make that happen, they have to buy goods for raw material, they have to deal with banks that will take that money and loan it out to others.
    laker1963:
    Governments sometimes have to invest in programs which will show no return monetarily, (mass transit) but obviously has a "pay back" to society. The rich would not even consider the fact that Mass Transit can not only save money but also help to solve other issues such as environmental concerns. Why, because there is no money to be made. Under these circumstances it is OK for a government to invest money ( the people's money) into this type of venture. That is wealth redistribution.
    in a way you are right. step onto that government paid for bus and give any of the people on there enough money to buy a car and run it without thinking twice about it and you will never see that person on the bus again. It is redistribution, and the government doesnt "have to invest" in it. they choose to.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.
    laker1963:

    Funny how advocates of the free enterprize system believe that government should NOT get involved and that the private sector should run the economy. So why are the PEOPLE being asked to pay for these bailout packages that are turning up all over the world. Why are the rich folk, and or corporations like Mobile Oil (just reported $14.8 BILLION in 3rd quarter profits) not ponying up to the bar and offering to bail the system out? All of a suden free enterprise looks suspiciously like a social system. Corporate Welfare seems to be OK... help bail out the banks so they can continue to throw people out of their homes. !
    im am for free enterprise. i dont support the federal bail out at all. it should fail. they made decisions that caused them to fail. let them. the people should not be asked to bail out anyone. the federal bail out bill was taking money out of my pocket and giving it to a business that has proven that they dont (wont/cant) handle money correctly.
    why arent the rich stepping up to bail it out? because its their money and they have every right to whatever they want to with it. ...and frankly, i would not want to invest in a business that is failing and has proven that they cant/wont make a good decision.
    we shouldnt take money from any company that has had huge success because others cant, wont, or are unable to be as successful.

    Economic Darwinism.

    laker1963:

    As for the comment that everyone can succeed... well that sure does SOUND good doesn't it? Reality? NOT
    how is that not true? what is stopping people from success? ill tell you who: themselves.

    and if you try and say "what about the mentally and physically ill?" ill just have to laugh because that is not who i am talking about. that is a very different kettle of fish.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    laker1963:

    The rich only reinvest money into the system when they stand to make a suitable profit from that investment.
    thats true. and while they are making hte profit by reinvesting they are creating jobs because they have to hire people to make that happen, they have to buy goods for raw material, they have to deal with banks that will take that money and loan it out to others.
    You missed my point. The rich ONLY invest in themselves in other words. They do NOT invest in society for any reason other then profits. That is why governments have to.
    laker1963:
    Governments sometimes have to invest in programs which will show no return monetarily, (mass transit) but obviously has a "pay back" to society. The rich would not even consider the fact that Mass Transit can not only save money but also help to solve other issues such as environmental concerns. Why? Because there is no money to be made. Under these circumstances it is OK for a government to invest money ( the people's money) into this type of venture. That is wealth redistribution.
    in a way you are right. step onto that government paid for bus and give any of the people on there enough money to buy a car and run it without thinking twice about it and you will never see that person on the bus again. It is redistribution, and the government doesnt "have to invest" in it. they choose to.
    I don't get your point. Nobody is giving these people anything. That is why they are on the bus. The issue is who provided the bus? The government did, using tax payers money. It could be argued that average people are paying for the priviledge of making profits for corporations. Why else would they need public transportation but to get to work? How does giving or not giving one of those people a car have anything to do with this discussion. The government does not choose to invest in things like public transportation... it is the only alternative out there, and will become more important as time goes on from so many different views.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.
    laker1963:

    Seems like a strange thing to say. You live in a country where people DIE for the benefit of a few elites and yet you claim those same people would not WORK for the benfit of the masses. I think they already do. Whether or not they are actually achieving what they believe they are is another issue.
    Funny how advocates of the free enterprize system believe that government should NOT get involved and that the private sector should run the economy. So why are the PEOPLE being asked to pay for these bailout packages that are turning up all over the world. Why are the rich folk, and or corporations like Mobile Oil (just reported $14.8 BILLION in 3rd quarter profits) not ponying up to the bar and offering to bail the system out? All of a suden free enterprise looks suspiciously like a social system. Corporate Welfare seems to be OK... help bail out the banks so they can continue to throw people out of their homes. !
    im am for free enterprise. i dont support the federal bail out at all. it should fail. they made decisions that caused them to fail. let them. the people should not be asked to bail out anyone. the federal bail out bill was taking money out of my pocket and giving it to a business that has proven that they dont (wont/cant) handle money correctly.
    why arent the rich stepping up to bail it out? because its their money and they have every right to whatever they want to with it. ...and frankly, i would not want to invest in a business that is failing and has proven that they cant/wont make a good decision.
    we shouldnt take money from any company that has had huge success because others cant, wont, or are unable to be as successful.

    Economic Darwinism.

    This is not a business failure, c'mon. This is the failure of a ideological system, the free enterprise system. Left alone and not manipulated the system may work fine (kind of like democracy) however it has been perverted and manipulated for the benefit of a realitivly small group of elites. That is why government does need some level of involvement, if only to monitor that the system is not being irrepairably damaged by a few for some short term gain at the cost of long term repercussions for the economy and society as a whole.
    laker1963:

    As for the comment that everyone can succeed... well that sure does SOUND good doesn't it? Reality? NOT
    how is that not true? what is stopping people from success? ill tell you who: themselves.

    and if you try and say "what about the mentally and physically ill?" ill just have to laugh because that is not who i am talking about. that is a very different kettle of fish.

    We were talking about average people not people in special circumstances. I try not to speak / argue debate in extremes. 50 years ago the American Dream was achievable by anyone who worked hard and made correct decisions in money matters. The number of people who find their American Dream nowadays is minuscule. In this day and age money makes money. Working stiffs just don't build empires anymore, and if they tried then the corporations who they would be competing against one day would ruthlessly run him out of business in the first year if they are capable of doing so. Of course you may argue that they were just looking after their own interests and had a right to do so., but that would hardly be an example of someone being responsible for or able to effect their own failure or success.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    laker1963:

    The rich only reinvest money into the system when they stand to make a suitable profit from that investment.
    thats true. and while they are making hte profit by reinvesting they are creating jobs because they have to hire people to make that happen, they have to buy goods for raw material, they have to deal with banks that will take that money and loan it out to others.
    You missed my point. The rich ONLY invest in themselves in other words. They do NOT invest in society for any reason other then profits. That is why governments have to.
    laker1963:
    Governments sometimes have to invest in programs which will show no return monetarily, (mass transit) but obviously has a "pay back" to society. The rich would not even consider the fact that Mass Transit can not only save money but also help to solve other issues such as environmental concerns. Why? Because there is no money to be made. Under these circumstances it is OK for a government to invest money ( the people's money) into this type of venture. That is wealth redistribution.
    in a way you are right. step onto that government paid for bus and give any of the people on there enough money to buy a car and run it without thinking twice about it and you will never see that person on the bus again. It is redistribution, and the government doesnt "have to invest" in it. they choose to.

    I don't get your point. Nobody is giving these people anything. That is why they are on the bus. The issue is who provided the bus? The government did, using tax payers money. It could be argued that average people are paying for the priviledge of making profits for corporations. Why else would they need public transportation but to get to work? How does giving or not giving one of those people a car have anything to do with this discussion. The government does not choose to invest in things like public transportation... it is the only alternative out there, and will become more important as time goes on from so many different views.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.
    laker1963:

    Seems like a strange thing to say. You live in a country where people DIE for the benefit of a few elites and yet you claim those same people would not WORK for the benfit of the masses. I think they already do. Whether or not they are actually achieving what they believe they are is another issue.
    Funny how advocates of the free enterprize system believe that government should NOT get involved and that the private sector should run the economy. So why are the PEOPLE being asked to pay for these bailout packages that are turning up all over the world. Why are the rich folk, and or corporations like Mobile Oil (just reported $14.8 BILLION in 3rd quarter profits) not ponying up to the bar and offering to bail the system out? All of a suden free enterprise looks suspiciously like a social system. Corporate Welfare seems to be OK... help bail out the banks so they can continue to throw people out of their homes. !
    im am for free enterprise. i dont support the federal bail out at all. it should fail. they made decisions that caused them to fail. let them. the people should not be asked to bail out anyone. the federal bail out bill was taking money out of my pocket and giving it to a business that has proven that they dont (wont/cant) handle money correctly.
    why arent the rich stepping up to bail it out? because its their money and they have every right to whatever they want to with it. ...and frankly, i would not want to invest in a business that is failing and has proven that they cant/wont make a good decision.
    we shouldnt take money from any company that has had huge success because others cant, wont, or are unable to be as successful.

    Economic Darwinism.

    This is not a business failure, c'mon. This is the failure of a ideological system, the free enterprise system. Left alone and not manipulated the system may work fine (kind of like democracy) however it has been perverted and manipulated for the benefit of a realitivly small group of elites. That is why government does need some level of involvement, if only to monitor that the system is not being irrepairably damaged by a few for some short term gain at the cost of long term repercussions for the economy and society as a whole.
    laker1963:

    As for the comment that everyone can succeed... well that sure does SOUND good doesn't it? Reality? NOT
    how is that not true? what is stopping people from success? ill tell you who: themselves.

    and if you try and say "what about the mentally and physically ill?" ill just have to laugh because that is not who i am talking about. that is a very different kettle of fish.

    We were talking about average people not people in special circumstances. I try not to speak / argue debate in extremes. 50 years ago the American Dream was achievable by anyone who worked hard and made correct decisions in money matters. The number of people who find their American Dream nowadays is minuscule. In this day and age money makes money. Working stiffs just don't build empires anymore, and if they tried then the corporations who they would be competing against one day would ruthlessly run him out of business in the first year if they are capable of doing so. Of course you may argue that they were just looking after their own interests and had a right to do so., but that would hardly be an example of someone being responsible for or able to effect their own failure or success.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    the housing market was not free at all. it cant be a failure of free market because there was no free market there to fail. it was government regulated. what bank would knowingly make a loan that the person couldnt pay back? there was another hand in there.


    "50 years ago the American Dream was achievable by anyone who worked hard and made correct decisions in money matters. The number of people who find their American Dream nowadays is minuscule"

    not true. people live it every day. the work ethic has in general declined. people feel entitled to things and they feel the government owes them things. people feel that they shouldnt have to work. thats why they dont succeed. I work hard. I succeed. I didnt have money. I dont have a degree. I am living the American dream. Money may make more money but I too can and do make money. you can to. it just seems like the more money I make the more money Uncle Sam takes from me.

    maybe that is why its hard to "live the American dream"
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business. While large corporations grow in wealth, have record profits, people are losing their jobs, houses and the economy is going/has fallen. I'm not saying that just because people are losing their homes that is Bush's fault, I mean these people should have paid more attention the the lease and understand what their payments were going to be; but in all fairness the economy has crapped out under Bush's watch. Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared.

    I'm not sure if Obama's tax plan will work, or if it will increase the economy, but I'm sure it will help, not make things worse. He already has promised to crack down on imports, raise exports, and keep jobs here (which for some reason makes sense...?). Also for some crazy reason he wants the US to raise production of products to export! His environmental stance is fantastic, as I'm sure in a couple of years the US will be back on the forefront of technology and exports. All in all his plans aren't perfect, but he does have something we haven't had in office for a long time, that is drive, and true belief that change can happen. I really believe that he wants to bring the country up. I just hope he delivers. Anyway we'll find out tomorrow and beyond.
  • rmccloudrmccloud Posts: 160 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'm not sure if Obama's tax plan will work, or if it will increase the economy, but I'm sure it will help, not make things worse. He already has promised to crack down on imports, raise exports, and keep jobs here (which for some reason makes sense...?). Also for some crazy reason he wants the US to raise production of products to export!
    When you crack down on imports from a country, that country will generally crack down on your imports to their country. They is going to make it extremely difficult to raise our export levels to other countries while having the government restrict/levy a tariff against what comes into this country. I am all for increasing our export levels while trying to decrease our imports, but to me that doesn't make sense.

    Not saying that us losing jobs is a good thing but what work is required changes with advances in technology and a more global market. Countries are beginning to have niche products/services that they provide. With being an industrialized nation comes the positives and negatives. We have to be willing to adapt to changes in the job market to what is being requested of us not sit back and hope that somebody makes it better for us. Why would I pay someone $30 an hour to work the line of an auto manufacturer when I could pay someone in Mexico $10 an hour? (My job is in IT so it very easily could happen to me) This is going to be the way of life going forward unless we just want to shut down the borders and say that nothing comes in or goes out (everybody can agree that this isn't going to happen).
  • rusiriusrusirius Posts: 565 ✭✭
    My prediction... Obama wins popular vote... Voting machines reorganize votes "mistakenly" made for Obama. McCain takes it...

    Stick out tongue [:P]

    Wait... Did I say that out loud???
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