the housing market was not free at all. it cant be a failure of free market because there was no free market there to fail. it was government regulated. what bank would knowingly make a loan that the person couldnt pay back?
I'm staying out of this conversation as much as possible, but, c'mon kuzi. That's exactly what happened here. Private banks made loans that they knew were high risk. They didn't do it because of regulation. No regulation required them to make those loans. They made those loans because they decided the reward was worth the risk. They turned out to be wrong.
I know there's a deep-seated desire among many to somehow blame these private loans on Freddie, Fannie, and the CRA, but the facts just do not support it. At all. Even Alan Greenspan admits that.
the housing market was not free at all. it cant be a failure of free market because there was no free market there to fail. it was government regulated. what bank would knowingly make a loan that the person couldnt pay back? there was another hand in there.
"50 years ago the American Dream was achievable by anyone who worked hard and made correct decisions in money matters. The number of people who find their American Dream nowadays is minuscule"
not true. people live it every day. the work ethic has in general declined. people feel entitled to things and they feel the government owes them things. people feel that they shouldnt have to work. thats why they dont succeed. I work hard. I succeed. I didnt have money. I dont have a degree. I am living the American dream. Money may make more money but I too can and do make money. you can to. it just seems like the more money I make the more money Uncle Sam takes from me.
maybe that is why its hard to "live the American dream"
I was not talking about the housing market, I was talking about the collapse of the economic system of most countries around the world. The fact that it was brought on in large part by the housing market crisis is a symptom not a cause. The system has been stretched way beyond any reasonable level and it has been a matter of discussion ( at least in circles I hang in) that the American Free Market System has been manipulated and perverted for the benefit of a small group of elites. This group seemed hell bent for leather to run what appeared to be a broken system right into the ground in an attempt to wring as much money out of the system (before its' certain collapse) for themselves rather then actually fixing the system. The bad loans you reffered to were indeed made by banks who knew that given the circumstances as they were on the day these people applied for these loans that these folks were NOT good credit risks. It was suppose to play out differently then it did, and these people were supposed to be able to sell these houses before their ballon mortgages kicked in. However when things went south so quickly and house prices tanked, these people were then left in a default position because they owed way more for their house then it was now worth and in addition to that the monthly payments were far too much for them to maintain. Now I am not crying any crocodile tears for these folks. I believe that you take a risk and it can pay off or not. I have had some risks I have taken pay off rather well, and some have tanked. My point here is that while I feel these people are at least partially responsible for thier own predicament, so are the banks. They were so willing to sign these people up with mortgages that they knew these people really could NOT afford. Thru the magic of creative financing they were signing up anybody because as long as the game kept running they were still making money, period. Now that the wheels have fallen off, they make out like nobody saw it coming. Then to make matters worse, the government bails them out and they continue to evict people from their homes. So now the average Joe who is losing his house in this mess is actually paying for the banks to reposses his home thru this bail out package. Now I will make the arguement that this is where the role of government should be. To administer systems within their jurisdiction so that this type of mess doesn't happen in the first place. If the loaning of money was regulated in a way to prevent banks from lending money to poor credit risk people that would have helped. I am not saying that is THE answer, just maybe something which may have helped to prevent this mess. While the arguement that the market should regulate itself SOUNDS good on the surface, history has shown that greed and power are so addicting to people (MUCH more then any drug!) that some higher authority (government) has to be able to put in place some regulatory system to effect a smooth and efficient economy. If we do not learn from the mistakes made this time we will only afford ourselves the opportunity to learn them the next time around or maybe a time or two after that. Unfortunatley for too many, living the American dream these day's simply means having enough to pay the rent or feed the family.
Kuzi,
I get what your saying about people make things happen and people should be responsible for creating wealth, but coming from a guy who is making something happen, and trying to get things growing, currently this is very hard at this time, why? Well let me explain, I didn't come from money, in fact my parents made decent money but too much to send me to college (any that I was accepted too) and even for that matter any decent state schools, so I went into the Army, when I came out found out that the GI bill is almost a joke, meaning I sign up for classes, send in the forms to the VA for the GI bill, then when school starts, I don't have any money from the GI bill because it takes a month to get the funds from the day around registration. So I have to come up with tuition/book money (mainly book money since tuition can wait) and with paying rent/insurance/gas/car payment on a less than desirable salary is almost impossible. Anyway, fast foreward a few years, now I have college debt, credit card debt (due to college) and now I have negative on my credit from a couple of years ago, but now because I am making good money, I have sine started my own IT business but because I cannot get a loan I cannot grow my business by hiring more people, more equipment and the works. Now I know that after a couple of years I'll be getting bigger, but the demand is there but I can only do so much by myself while holding onto my current job. I'm also scared for paying my own health insurance. All in all I know that I need to work, but the thing is, it's very hard when policies are in place to make things more difficult for me and my business.
Rmccloud, For a business to pay a employee 30 bucks an hour for labor in todays economy would be an okay wage, at least enough for the employee to stay some-what comfortable as long as his wife/partner made about the same, or less. But the idea that the employer can pay workers in other countries to do the same thing for much less only shows greed. The price for the employer's products go up with inflation- but basically stays the same in the market. The money for the workers go up slower than inflation so overall the employer still makes money. Now for the workers who are paid 1/2 if not less than the american worker still make decent money where they're from but doing this only hurts the US economy, puts american's out of work, and only puts more money in the pocket of the employer. Now if the employer kept factories in the US, paid US citizens, then they would perhaps not get as much, but the economy would increase, as more people would have jobs, make decent earnings, and put back money into products.
Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business. While large corporations grow in wealth, have record profits, people are losing their jobs, houses and the economy is going/has fallen. I'm not saying that just because people are losing their homes that is Bush's fault, I mean these people should have paid more attention the the lease and understand what their payments were going to be; but in all fairness the economy has crapped out under Bush's watch. Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared.
I'm not sure if Obama's tax plan will work, or if it will increase the economy, but I'm sure it will help, not make things worse. He already has promised to crack down on imports, raise exports, and keep jobs here (which for some reason makes sense...?). Also for some crazy reason he wants the US to raise production of products to export! His environmental stance is fantastic, as I'm sure in a couple of years the US will be back on the forefront of technology and exports. All in all his plans aren't perfect, but he does have something we haven't had in office for a long time, that is drive, and true belief that change can happen. I really believe that he wants to bring the country up. I just hope he delivers. Anyway we'll find out tomorrow and beyond.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us. We were attacked on Sept 11th 2001 and it wasn't because of a single thing that President Bush did. We were un-popular before President Bush even took office. The reason we aren't popular is because we are the big dogs on the block. Look at how many people hate the New England Patriots for example. In 2002 when they won the Super Bowl everyone was on their side, but now, 2008, most people were glad to see them lose last night...
"Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business."
This statement is also absurd! The tax cuts President Bush DID help the economy as Kuzi pointed out. Longest period of job growth in HISTORY. I work for a living and am in no way rich, but the tax cuts DID help me. They helped me be able to pay my bills more easily. If you think because of the tax cuts we are all supposed to be able to go out and buy new cars then no, thats not going to happen. The tax cuts did help ease the burden on tax payers as a whole. Allowed us to spend more money and put back into the economy which did help our entire country.
Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business. While large corporations grow in wealth, have record profits, people are losing their jobs, houses and the economy is going/has fallen. I'm not saying that just because people are losing their homes that is Bush's fault, I mean these people should have paid more attention the the lease and understand what their payments were going to be; but in all fairness the economy has crapped out under Bush's watch. Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared.
I'm not sure if Obama's tax plan will work, or if it will increase the economy, but I'm sure it will help, not make things worse. He already has promised to crack down on imports, raise exports, and keep jobs here (which for some reason makes sense...?). Also for some crazy reason he wants the US to raise production of products to export! His environmental stance is fantastic, as I'm sure in a couple of years the US will be back on the forefront of technology and exports. All in all his plans aren't perfect, but he does have something we haven't had in office for a long time, that is drive, and true belief that change can happen. I really believe that he wants to bring the country up. I just hope he delivers. Anyway we'll find out tomorrow and beyond.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us. We were attacked on Sept 11th 2001 and it wasn't because of a single thing that President Bush did. We were un-popular before President Bush even took office. The reason we aren't popular is because we are the big dogs on the block. Look at how many people hate the New England Patriots for example. In 2002 when they won the Super Bowl everyone was on their side, but now, 2008, most people were glad to see them lose last night...
"Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business."
This statement is also absurd! The tax cuts President Bush DID help the economy as Kuzi pointed out. Longest period of job growth in HISTORY. I work for a living and am in no way rich, but the tax cuts DID help me. They helped me be able to pay my bills more easily. If you think because of the tax cuts we are all supposed to be able to go out and buy new cars then no, thats not going to happen. The tax cuts did help ease the burden on tax payers as a whole. Allowed us to spend more money and put back into the economy which did help our entire country.
And how do you reconcile your country's present economic meltdown, which required a dose of Socialism to hopefully clear up with your statements above?
It's all subjective I guess. I guess since 2001 happened, we need to go to war with no evidence, keep troops there after that evidence has yet to be found, not go to places where the enemy is, and keep giving large corporations money when they fail, and allow companies (oil especially) raise prices on the public, though they are making record profits. Tax cuts, you mean that kicker check we all got mid year? Yeah that was a bunch of crap. If anyone wants to really help out the economy they need to not tax extra income such as bonus's, overtime, and anything else that people work extra for. And if it is, not more! Basically I was on the fence about Bush back in 2000, and even then I knew this guy would find a way to go into Iraq, and what do you know, we did, and haven't done anything really to justify our being there, or done anything other than create chaos. Does anyone know that we have been there going on 7 + years? WTF! We fought and won a WW with two large enemies in a little over a year, and it was done by, oh I don't know actually fighting! Since being in this current war the Bush administration hasn't done what it said, it hasn't gone after terrorists where ever they are, they stopped at Iraq, got oil companies rich, downed the economy, and made large mis-calculations on how to wage a war. 2001 attacks were a great distraction that's for sure. Though it's very widely debated about the legitimacy of those attacks, since then the government has widened its policies on threats, broken laws, lied to the public and world on record, and continues to speak about protection when it's really about control.
Basically if you support Bush/McCain than that's fine. You have every right to support and vote and defend anyone you like. I do not judge anyone for speaking their mind. I just think that more people should be more inclined to do their own thinking and figure things out a little more before making decisions.
Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business. While large corporations grow in wealth, have record profits, people are losing their jobs, houses and the economy is going/has fallen. I'm not saying that just because people are losing their homes that is Bush's fault, I mean these people should have paid more attention the the lease and understand what their payments were going to be; but in all fairness the economy has crapped out under Bush's watch. Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared.
I'm not sure if Obama's tax plan will work, or if it will increase the economy, but I'm sure it will help, not make things worse. He already has promised to crack down on imports, raise exports, and keep jobs here (which for some reason makes sense...?). Also for some crazy reason he wants the US to raise production of products to export! His environmental stance is fantastic, as I'm sure in a couple of years the US will be back on the forefront of technology and exports. All in all his plans aren't perfect, but he does have something we haven't had in office for a long time, that is drive, and true belief that change can happen. I really believe that he wants to bring the country up. I just hope he delivers. Anyway we'll find out tomorrow and beyond.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us. We were attacked on Sept 11th 2001 and it wasn't because of a single thing that President Bush did. We were un-popular before President Bush even took office. The reason we aren't popular is because we are the big dogs on the block. Look at how many people hate the New England Patriots for example. In 2002 when they won the Super Bowl everyone was on their side, but now, 2008, most people were glad to see them lose last night...
"Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business."
This statement is also absurd! The tax cuts President Bush DID help the economy as Kuzi pointed out. Longest period of job growth in HISTORY. I work for a living and am in no way rich, but the tax cuts DID help me. They helped me be able to pay my bills more easily. If you think because of the tax cuts we are all supposed to be able to go out and buy new cars then no, thats not going to happen. The tax cuts did help ease the burden on tax payers as a whole. Allowed us to spend more money and put back into the economy which did help our entire country.
And how do you reconcile your country's present economic meltdown, which required a dose of Socialism to hopefully clear up with your statements above?
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
It's all subjective I guess. I guess since 2001 happened, we need to go to war with no evidence, keep troops there after that evidence has yet to be found, not go to places where the enemy is, and keep giving large corporations money when they fail, and allow companies (oil especially) raise prices on the public, though they are making record profits. Tax cuts, you mean that kicker check we all got mid year? Yeah that was a bunch of crap. If anyone wants to really help out the economy they need to not tax extra income such as bonus's, overtime, and anything else that people work extra for. And if it is, not more! Basically I was on the fence about Bush back in 2000, and even then I knew this guy would find a way to go into Iraq, and what do you know, we did, and haven't done anything really to justify our being there, or done anything other than create chaos. Does anyone know that we have been there going on 7 + years? WTF! We fought and won a WW with two large enemies in a little over a year, and it was done by, oh I don't know actually fighting! Since being in this current war the Bush administration hasn't done what it said, it hasn't gone after terrorists where ever they are, they stopped at Iraq, got oil companies rich, downed the economy, and made large mis-calculations on how to wage a war. 2001 attacks were a great distraction that's for sure. Though it's very widely debated about the legitimacy of those attacks, since then the government has widened its policies on threats, broken laws, lied to the public and world on record, and continues to speak about protection when it's really about control.
Basically if you support Bush/McCain than that's fine. You have every right to support and vote and defend anyone you like. I do not judge anyone for speaking their mind. I just think that more people should be more inclined to do their own thinking and figure things out a little more before making decisions.
"Tax cuts, you mean that kicker check we all got mid year? Yeah that was a bunch of crap."
No, I wasn't speaking about he "Stimulous Checks," I was refering to the actual tax cut. There is a huge difference. The tax cut puts more money in our pockets every pay day, the stimulous check was a one time shot.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block. I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block. I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
I'm sorry but at this point I don't give a *** what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have bailed out every little shithole country and saved Frances ass TWICE. Not to mention the countless BILLIONS of dollars we have given out in aid. If they don't like how we handle our own affairs and how we deal with our own protection... I say they can get ****. Since when was the U.S. named the Global "take a penny" tray?
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block. I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
I'm sorry but at this point I don't give a *** what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have bailed out every little shithole country and saved Frances ass TWICE. Not to mention the countless BILLIONS of dollars we have given out in aid. If they don't like how we handle our own affairs and how we deal with our own protection... I say they can get ****. Since when was the U.S. named the Global "take a penny" tray?
And you are totally free to have those feelings. I was not debating with you about what the US should or should not do. We were discussing things other then your opinions at the time, it has morphed into this. I hope I didn't offend you, you obviously take all this really seriously.
I used to. Then I realized that, since they don't call me for my opinion before they do something stupid... I don't have to feel like I need to justify their stupidity for them. It is what it is.
My hope is that whoever the next president is, he can rise above some of the partisan politics and actually do something positive for the US domestically as well as internationally
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block. I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
I'm sorry but at this point I don't give a *** what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have bailed out every little shithole country and saved Frances ass TWICE. Not to mention the countless BILLIONS of dollars we have given out in aid. If they don't like how we handle our own affairs and how we deal with our own protection... I say they can get ****. Since when was the U.S. named the Global "take a penny" tray?
And you are totally free to have those feelings. I was not debating with you about what the US should or should not do. We were discussing things other then your opinions at the time, it has morphed into this. I hope I didn't offend you, you obviously take all this really seriously.
I used to. Then I realized that, since they don't call me for my opinion before they do something stupid... I don't have to feel like I need to justify their stupidity for them. It is what it is.
My hope is that whoever the next president is, he can rise above some of the partisan politics and actually do something positive for the US domestically as well as internationally
Oh no, you didn't offend me and I don't say anything about this in anger. I do feel very strongly about my opinions but they are just opinions. Everyone has them... I am just tired of everyone attacking Bush for EVERYTHING he has done but Clinton and CARTER above anyone, get a pass. At the end of the day, I'm just glad I am free to sit on my balcony with a good cigar and a glass of whiskey, relax, and forget all the BS in the world.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...? I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block. I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
I'm sorry but at this point I don't give a *** what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have bailed out every little shithole country and saved Frances ass TWICE. Not to mention the countless BILLIONS of dollars we have given out in aid. If they don't like how we handle our own affairs and how we deal with our own protection... I say they can get ****. Since when was the U.S. named the Global "take a penny" tray?
And you are totally free to have those feelings. I was not debating with you about what the US should or should not do. We were discussing things other then your opinions at the time, it has morphed into this. I hope I didn't offend you, you obviously take all this really seriously.
I used to. Then I realized that, since they don't call me for my opinion before they do something stupid... I don't have to feel like I need to justify their stupidity for them. It is what it is.
My hope is that whoever the next president is, he can rise above some of the partisan politics and actually do something positive for the US domestically as well as internationally
Oh no, you didn't offend me and I don't say anything about this in anger. I do feel very strongly about my opinions but they are just opinions. Everyone has them... I am just tired of everyone attacking Bush for EVERYTHING he has done but Clinton and CARTER above anyone, get a pass. At the end of the day, I'm just glad I am free to sit on my balcony with a good cigar and a glass of whiskey, relax, and forget all the BS in the world.
OK THERE YOU GO !!!! I knew we could finally agree on something totally.... Well 'err not totally Did you say WHISKEY !?!? What the hell is wrong with you !?!?!? LMAO EVERYBODY knows that a good cigar at the end of a stressful day goes MUCH better with a shot of Congnac. Grand Marnier to be precise, neat (bottle freezer stored of course)
But I'm with ya on the cigar and the BS stuff bro'
Haha I do like a nice glass of Congnac too, but I'm a bourbon man.
My top election prediction is that I will be highly intoxicated before the night is over! Haha And that is one campaign promise you can bank on!
We were un-popular before President Bush even took office. The reason we aren't popular is because we are the big dogs on the block.
That is in part true, of course. But not in the absolute sense in which you state it. As every poll of worldwide opinion has indicated, America's image in the world has declined due to Bush policies.
PuroFreak:
I work for a living and am in no way rich, but the tax cuts DID help me. They helped me be able to pay my bills more easily. If you think because of the tax cuts we are all supposed to be able to go out and buy new cars then no, thats not going to happen. The tax cuts did help ease the burden on tax payers as a whole. Allowed us to spend more money and put back into the economy which did help our entire country.
So in the short-term sense, yes, tax cuts -- or, if you're middle-class, I think you really mean the tax rebate (I know Bush's tax rate cuts certainly didn't make it down to my bracket, anyway) -- did help. Over the longer-term, however, look at the debt his tax policy has left us with. Bush's problem was that he tried to have his cake and eat it, too; he tried to have guns and butter . . . and an expensive tax cut. His administration will leave office having spent a huge amount of money, and paid for none of it.
Essentially, he pursued Keynesian fiscal policy for almost 8 years. Applied as it was intended, I have no problem with Keynesian fiscal policy. In fact, I favor it. The problem is, Bush didn't apply it as it was intended.
If the next administration -- whoever ends up leading it -- pursues the same spend-like-crazy and cut taxes policy, they're going to produce some good growth numbers, too. Until China stops buying our debt, that is. And then we're Iceland.
I agree in a way to you. The tax cuts did help the people, but you are right, he DID spend way to much money. I believe we need to chop spending down to next to nothing. President Bush didn't do that, and there were a lot of ways he could have. The shocking part to me is that people think Sen Obama is the answer. Bush was half right... but Obama wants to go the complete opposite direction with higher taxes and more spending. That to me is a move in the wrong direction when it comes to fixing our country.
You guys keep saying Obama's going to raise taxes, but the plan he has run on doesn't raise taxes, except on the very wealthy. I can't tell if y'all are claiming his proposal says something it doesn't say, or just saying his proposal is a lie. Which is it? (That's a sincere question. I really can't tell which claim is being made.)
As for fiscal policy more generally, that's just where we disagree. I honestly don't understand all the whining that goes on about taxes being too high. I don't feel like my taxes are too high, and mine are almost certainly higher than the great majority of people's (I make quite a bit, I'm single, have no dependents, don't own a home, and don't take tax deductions for most of my charitable giving b/c I don't believe in that). If I had more money, could I find useful things to do with it? Sure. But I live quite comfortably, as it is. I've got more of just about everything than I need. So I just don't miss or begrudge the money that goes to taxes.
You guys keep saying Obama's going to raise taxes, but the plan he has run on doesn't raise taxes, except on the very wealthy. I can't tell if y'all are claiming his proposal says something it doesn't say, or just saying his proposal is a lie. Which is it? (That's a sincere question. I really can't tell which claim is being made.)
As for fiscal policy more generally, that's just where we disagree. I honestly don't understand all the whining that goes on about taxes being too high. I don't feel like my taxes are too high, and mine are almost certainly higher than the great majority of people's (I make quite a bit, I'm single, have no dependents, don't own a home, and don't take tax deductions for most of my charitable giving b/c I don't believe in that). If I had more money, could I find useful things to do with it? Sure. But I live quite comfortably, as it is. I've got more of just about everything than I need. So I just don't miss or begrudge the money that goes to taxes.
I don't think that the plan he is presenting is what will really happen because for one, it doesn't work. If he cuts the amount of taxes he says he will, which is impossible because many of the people he is going to cut taxes on don't even pay taxes, then he will increase the national debt drastically with the spending he wants to impose.
I do begrudge the money that goes to taxes because it is MY money. I work my ass off and I truely earn every penny. I don't want to government to take the money from my pocket and use it for social programs that are a total waste in my opinion. My check goes to rent, and food for me, my wife, and my son, and electricity to keep us warm this winter. I have very little left over for anything else and it does bother me when the government takes that from me.
You guys keep saying Obama's going to raise taxes, but the plan he has run on doesn't raise taxes, except on the very wealthy. I can't tell if y'all are claiming his proposal says something it doesn't say, or just saying his proposal is a lie. Which is it? (That's a sincere question. I really can't tell which claim is being made.)
As for fiscal policy more generally, that's just where we disagree. I honestly don't understand all the whining that goes on about taxes being too high. I don't feel like my taxes are too high, and mine are almost certainly higher than the great majority of people's (I make quite a bit, I'm single, have no dependents, don't own a home, and don't take tax deductions for most of my charitable giving b/c I don't believe in that). If I had more money, could I find useful things to do with it? Sure. But I live quite comfortably, as it is. I've got more of just about everything than I need. So I just don't miss or begrudge the money that goes to taxes.
You can act as if these campaign "proposals" are policy, but really they're talking points to get elected. Obama doesn't "propose" raising taxes on people who make less than $250,000. You have to push him hard to get him to admit that he would like to, like CNN has, like Charlie Gibson has.
When pressed, I heard Obama say he would have to strongly consider nearly doubling the capital gains tax, even though history has shown increased revenue when they're lowered, for one example. I won't say I think he's lying. I think he's obfuscating. The more I read about BO, the less I feel I know.
And it's not really whining per se, as it is a deep, deep, deep dissatisfaction with how my tax dollars are being spent. So yead, I'll complain they are too high when they're being so badly misspent. You may be flush, but some of us - not so much. I think that when a third of my and my wife's income goes to the government, we have a right to expect that it is put to good use. And it's not.
I don't think that the plan he is presenting is what will really happen because for one, it doesn't work. If he cuts the amount of taxes he says he will, which is impossible because many of the people he is going to cut taxes on don't even pay taxes, then he will increase the national debt drastically with the spending he wants to impose.
That didn't stop W. or Reagan, and they are conservative heroes. Why should it stop a Democrat?
Also, it seems to be the case that deficit spending is what's called for in our current economic situation. Unlike the past 7 years, this is the kind of situation that Keynesian economics was designed for, and a wide consensus of economists from all areas of the political spectrum -- even the ones who are budget hawks (which, if I were an economist, is where I would fit) -- are saying big gov't spending to stimulate the economy is what's needed right now.
You can act as if these campaign "proposals" are policy
I'm pretty sure I didn't do any such thing. I said, as is clear in your quote of my comment, it was the plan he had run on. That's all it is. Iffy as that is, it's a good deal more than what I'm hearing from critics, which are bald assertions that "Obama will raise taxes." The basis for the claim seems to be little more than an a priori political commitment to "Democrats raise taxes" as an immutable law of the universe.
You have at least provided something more than the bald assertion. You've referred to interviews you've seen or heard. I follow politics pretty closely, but I haven't seen/heard the interviews you're talking about. Can you provide links? I'd be interested in reading the transcripts.
Luko:
And it's not really whining per se, as it is a deep, deep, deep dissatisfaction with how my tax dollars are being spent. So yead, I'll complain they are too high when they're being so badly misspent. You may be flush, but some of us - not so much. I think that when a third of my and my wife's income goes to the government, we have a right to expect that it is put to good use. And it's not.
ISTM your complaint, Luko, is quite different from Puro's. Puro objects to the taxes, per se. You don't mind paying taxes at the rate you pay them, per se; you just don't like how the money is used.
Once again this is where we disagree on economic ideology. I beleive that if we cut taxes AND spending, it would great improve the economy. Leave more money in the hands of the people and they will put it back into the economy and make it stronger. Spend more money, create more jobs...etc...etc... Also as I have said before, I do not agree with President Bush's spending and in the case of Reagan, it was essential for us to increase defense spending in order to win the Cold War, and it worked.
You can act as if these campaign "proposals" are policy
I'm pretty sure I didn't do any such thing. I said, as is clear in your quote of my comment, it was the plan he had run on. That's all it is. Iffy as that is, it's a good deal more than what I'm hearing from critics, which are bald assertions that "Obama will raise taxes." The basis for the claim seems to be little more than an a priori political commitment to "Democrats raise taxes" as an immutable law of the universe.
You have at least provided something more than the bald assertion. You've referred to interviews you've seen or heard. I follow politics pretty closely, but I haven't seen/heard the interviews you're talking about. Can you provide links? I'd be interested in reading the transcripts.
Luko:
And it's not really whining per se, as it is a deep, deep, deep dissatisfaction with how my tax dollars are being spent. So yead, I'll complain they are too high when they're being so badly misspent. You may be flush, but some of us - not so much. I think that when a third of my and my wife's income goes to the government, we have a right to expect that it is put to good use. And it's not.
ISTM your complaint, Luko, is quite different from Puro's. Puro objects to the taxes, per se. You don't mind paying taxes at the rate you pay them, per se; you just don't like how the money is used.
Must watch Steelers game. Yes, you did make it clear that it was his plan he had run on. I read it a little quickly. Yes, I can provide links, and will. Just gotta watch Byron Leftwich first.
You can act as if these campaign "proposals" are policy
I'm pretty sure I didn't do any such thing. I said, as is clear in your quote of my comment, it was the plan he had run on. That's all it is. Iffy as that is, it's a good deal more than what I'm hearing from critics, which are bald assertions that "Obama will raise taxes." The basis for the claim seems to be little more than an a priori political commitment to "Democrats raise taxes" as an immutable law of the universe.
You have at least provided something more than the bald assertion. You've referred to interviews you've seen or heard. I follow politics pretty closely, but I haven't seen/heard the interviews you're talking about. Can you provide links? I'd be interested in reading the transcripts.
Luko:
And it's not really whining per se, as it is a deep, deep, deep dissatisfaction with how my tax dollars are being spent. So yead, I'll complain they are too high when they're being so badly misspent. You may be flush, but some of us - not so much. I think that when a third of my and my wife's income goes to the government, we have a right to expect that it is put to good use. And it's not.
ISTM your complaint, Luko, is quite different from Puro's. Puro objects to the taxes, per se. You don't mind paying taxes at the rate you pay them, per se; you just don't like how the money is used.
No Urbi, you are mistaken, I never said I have a problem paying taxes, my complaint was that raising taxes is the wrong thing to do. Never, not ONCE have I said I don't want to pay any taxes. I think that the current tax rate is MORE than enough taken out of my check. Taxes are a neccesarry evil and I do understand that totally. I may be a little slow, but not a total tard! haha
You guys keep saying Obama's going to raise taxes, but the plan he has run on doesn't raise taxes, except on the very wealthy. I can't tell if y'all are claiming his proposal says something it doesn't say, or just saying his proposal is a lie. Which is it? (That's a sincere question. I really can't tell which claim is being made.)
he may not activly raise taxes on the middle class but when the bush tax cuts expire in 2010 they will go back up, effectively raising taxes. this means higher taxes on the upper class, higher taxes on the middle class, higher taxes on big business, higher taxes on successful small business (250K+). the only people not paying more taxes when he ends his first term than when he starts are the people that dont make enough to pay taxes.
urbino:
... I honestly don't understand all the whining that goes on about taxes being too high. I don't feel like my taxes are too high, and mine are almost certainly higher than the great majority of people's (I make quite a bit, I'm single, have no dependents, don't own a home, and don't take tax deductions for most of my charitable giving b/c I don't believe in that). If I had more money, could I find useful things to do with it? Sure. But I live quite comfortably, as it is. I've got more of just about everything than I need. So I just don't miss or begrudge the money that goes to taxes.
you can feel however you want about your tax status. If you feel that you dont pay enough then tell them you want to pay more. Im sure that you wont be turned down. However, it is not your right, or the right of anyone else, to tell ME what to do with MY money.
Comments
I know there's a deep-seated desire among many to somehow blame these private loans on Freddie, Fannie, and the CRA, but the facts just do not support it. At all. Even Alan Greenspan admits that.
I was not talking about the housing market, I was talking about the collapse of the economic system of most countries around the world. The fact that it was brought on in large part by the housing market crisis is a symptom not a cause.
The system has been stretched way beyond any reasonable level and it has been a matter of discussion ( at least in circles I hang in) that the American Free Market System has been manipulated and perverted for the benefit of a small group of elites. This group seemed hell bent for leather to run what appeared to be a broken system right into the ground in an attempt to wring as much money out of the system (before its' certain collapse) for themselves rather then actually fixing the system.
The bad loans you reffered to were indeed made by banks who knew that given the circumstances as they were on the day these people applied for these loans that these folks were NOT good credit risks. It was suppose to play out differently then it did, and these people were supposed to be able to sell these houses before their ballon mortgages kicked in. However when things went south so quickly and house prices tanked, these people were then left in a default position because they owed way more for their house then it was now worth and in addition to that the monthly payments were far too much for them to maintain.
Now I am not crying any crocodile tears for these folks. I believe that you take a risk and it can pay off or not. I have had some risks I have taken pay off rather well, and some have tanked. My point here is that while I feel these people are at least partially responsible for thier own predicament, so are the banks. They were so willing to sign these people up with mortgages that they knew these people really could NOT afford. Thru the magic of creative financing they were signing up anybody because as long as the game kept running they were still making money, period.
Now that the wheels have fallen off, they make out like nobody saw it coming. Then to make matters worse, the government bails them out and they continue to evict people from their homes. So now the average Joe who is losing his house in this mess is actually paying for the banks to reposses his home thru this bail out package.
Now I will make the arguement that this is where the role of government should be. To administer systems within their jurisdiction so that this type of mess doesn't happen in the first place. If the loaning of money was regulated in a way to prevent banks from lending money to poor credit risk people that would have helped. I am not saying that is THE answer, just maybe something which may have helped to prevent this mess.
While the arguement that the market should regulate itself SOUNDS good on the surface, history has shown that greed and power are so addicting to people (MUCH more then any drug!) that some higher authority (government) has to be able to put in place some regulatory system to effect a smooth and efficient economy. If we do not learn from the mistakes made this time we will only afford ourselves the opportunity to learn them the next time around or maybe a time or two after that.
Unfortunatley for too many, living the American dream these day's simply means having enough to pay the rent or feed the family.
I get what your saying about people make things happen and people should be responsible for creating wealth, but coming from a guy who is making something happen, and trying to get things growing, currently this is very hard at this time, why? Well let me explain, I didn't come from money, in fact my parents made decent money but too much to send me to college (any that I was accepted too) and even for that matter any decent state schools, so I went into the Army, when I came out found out that the GI bill is almost a joke, meaning I sign up for classes, send in the forms to the VA for the GI bill, then when school starts, I don't have any money from the GI bill because it takes a month to get the funds from the day around registration. So I have to come up with tuition/book money (mainly book money since tuition can wait) and with paying rent/insurance/gas/car payment on a less than desirable salary is almost impossible. Anyway, fast foreward a few years, now I have college debt, credit card debt (due to college) and now I have negative on my credit from a couple of years ago, but now because I am making good money, I have sine started my own IT business but because I cannot get a loan I cannot grow my business by hiring more people, more equipment and the works. Now I know that after a couple of years I'll be getting bigger, but the demand is there but I can only do so much by myself while holding onto my current job. I'm also scared for paying my own health insurance. All in all I know that I need to work, but the thing is, it's very hard when policies are in place to make things more difficult for me and my business.
Rmccloud, For a business to pay a employee 30 bucks an hour for labor in todays economy would be an okay wage, at least enough for the employee to stay some-what comfortable as long as his wife/partner made about the same, or less. But the idea that the employer can pay workers in other countries to do the same thing for much less only shows greed. The price for the employer's products go up with inflation- but basically stays the same in the market. The money for the workers go up slower than inflation so overall the employer still makes money. Now for the workers who are paid 1/2 if not less than the american worker still make decent money where they're from but doing this only hurts the US economy, puts american's out of work, and only puts more money in the pocket of the employer. Now if the employer kept factories in the US, paid US citizens, then they would perhaps not get as much, but the economy would increase, as more people would have jobs, make decent earnings, and put back money into products.
"Bush hasn't done one thing that has helped this country, other than big business."
This statement is also absurd! The tax cuts President Bush DID help the economy as Kuzi pointed out. Longest period of job growth in HISTORY. I work for a living and am in no way rich, but the tax cuts DID help me. They helped me be able to pay my bills more easily. If you think because of the tax cuts we are all supposed to be able to go out and buy new cars then no, thats not going to happen. The tax cuts did help ease the burden on tax payers as a whole. Allowed us to spend more money and put back into the economy which did help our entire country.
And how do you reconcile your country's present economic meltdown, which required a dose of Socialism to hopefully clear up with your statements above?
Basically if you support Bush/McCain than that's fine. You have every right to support and vote and defend anyone you like. I do not judge anyone for speaking their mind. I just think that more people should be more inclined to do their own thinking and figure things out a little more before making decisions.
"Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." First of all this statement is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
From someone from outside of your country who also talks to people from other country's I can assure you that it is not WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The US is a great country, but you have some fences to mend for sure ! That is TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.
Just to play devil's advocate here PuroFreak, with what you just said above how do you then justify your reflecting instead of answering by stating this...?
I'm sure if you ask many people Bill Clinton's bombing of a Tylenol factory wasn't a real popularity boost for us.
Clinton was not a perfect human being. Neither is Bush. Or anyone else for that matter. There is always room for some criticism. Even when it is the President of the US, no matter which party he belongs to. Winning an election doesn't make you infallible.
"Tax cuts, you mean that kicker check we all got mid year? Yeah that was a bunch of crap."
No, I wasn't speaking about he "Stimulous Checks," I was refering to the actual tax cut. There is a huge difference. The tax cut puts more money in our pockets every pay day, the stimulous check was a one time shot.
Oh I never said Bush was perfect, and yes many people out there dislike him, I'm not a big fan of many of his policies. My point was Bush is NOT the only reason our country is hated. Phobic's statement was "Let us not forget because of his policy's overseas our name has been smeared." My point was that he is not THE reason our country is hated because we have been hated since before he was even a political thought nationally. And I did not "reflect" I gave my opinion of why I believe our country is hated by so many. I used Clinton as an example that Bush is not the only reason, I wasn't in any way saying President Clinton was the only reason.
Well then I gues I can partially agree with something I think you said earlier. You mentioned that it was not a level of hate it was more like people disliked the US because the US is the big kid on the block.
I agree that for a long time that has been the feeling from outside the US and it is not surprising in any way. Envy if you will.
Puro, I assure you that with the US foreign policy what it is today, and DIRECTLY because of George Bush many people around the world do HATE the US.
You are correct in saying that these feelings have been around for longer then George Bush Jr has been in power, but the damage done to foreign relations in the US from this administration will be something which will take a VERY long time to mend.
And you are totally free to have those feelings. I was not debating with you about what the US should or should not do. We were discussing things other then your opinions at the time, it has morphed into this. I hope I didn't offend you, you obviously take all this really seriously.
I used to. Then I realized that, since they don't call me for my opinion before they do something stupid... I don't have to feel like I need to justify their stupidity for them. It is what it is.
My hope is that whoever the next president is, he can rise above some of the partisan politics and actually do something positive for the US domestically as well as internationally
Oh no, you didn't offend me and I don't say anything about this in anger. I do feel very strongly about my opinions but they are just opinions. Everyone has them... I am just tired of everyone attacking Bush for EVERYTHING he has done but Clinton and CARTER above anyone, get a pass. At the end of the day, I'm just glad I am free to sit on my balcony with a good cigar and a glass of whiskey, relax, and forget all the BS in the world.
OK THERE YOU GO !!!! I knew we could finally agree on something totally.... Well 'err not
totally
Did you say WHISKEY !?!? What the hell is wrong with you !?!?!? LMAO EVERYBODY knows that a good cigar at the end of a stressful day goes MUCH better with a shot of Congnac. Grand Marnier to be precise, neat (bottle freezer stored of course)
But I'm with ya on the cigar and the BS stuff bro'
My top election prediction is that I will be highly intoxicated before the night is over! Haha And that is one campaign promise you can bank on!
As for fiscal policy more generally, that's just where we disagree. I honestly don't understand all the whining that goes on about taxes being too high. I don't feel like my taxes are too high, and mine are almost certainly higher than the great majority of people's (I make quite a bit, I'm single, have no dependents, don't own a home, and don't take tax deductions for most of my charitable giving b/c I don't believe in that). If I had more money, could I find useful things to do with it? Sure. But I live quite comfortably, as it is. I've got more of just about everything than I need. So I just don't miss or begrudge the money that goes to taxes.
I do begrudge the money that goes to taxes because it is MY money. I work my ass off and I truely earn every penny. I don't want to government to take the money from my pocket and use it for social programs that are a total waste in my opinion. My check goes to rent, and food for me, my wife, and my son, and electricity to keep us warm this winter. I have very little left over for anything else and it does bother me when the government takes that from me.
When pressed, I heard Obama say he would have to strongly consider nearly doubling the capital gains tax, even though history has shown increased revenue when they're lowered, for one example. I won't say I think he's lying. I think he's obfuscating. The more I read about BO, the less I feel I know.
And it's not really whining per se, as it is a deep, deep, deep dissatisfaction with how my tax dollars are being spent. So yead, I'll complain they are too high when they're being so badly misspent. You may be flush, but some of us - not so much. I think that when a third of my and my wife's income goes to the government, we have a right to expect that it is put to good use. And it's not.
Also, it seems to be the case that deficit spending is what's called for in our current economic situation. Unlike the past 7 years, this is the kind of situation that Keynesian economics was designed for, and a wide consensus of economists from all areas of the political spectrum -- even the ones who are budget hawks (which, if I were an economist, is where I would fit) -- are saying big gov't spending to stimulate the economy is what's needed right now.