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Lung cancer vaccine...from Cuba.

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  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    I wonder if this'll fall under the embargo?
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
  • RhamlinRhamlin WVPosts: 7,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting, wonder how true it is. I heard last week of us scientist saying they had developed a vaccine for some form of cancer.
  • Ken Light:
    I wonder if this'll fall under the embargo?
    +1 maybe it could help remove the embargo
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,634 ✭✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    Highest amount of doctorate degrees per capita of any nation
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.


    That is an excellent point Kuzi and spot on . I don't think a countrys government in this age is necessarily a reflection of its people and their intelligence . If it was most people in the world would think us Americans sure are some dumb as_ses huh ???
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    gmill880:
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.


    That is an excellent point Kuzi and spot on . I don't think a countrys government in this age is necessarily a reflection of its people and their intelligence . If it was most people in the world would think us Americans sure are some dumb as_ses huh ???
    Considering some of our elected officials we have we may in fact be the dumbest freaks around!
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Considering some of our elected officials we have we may in fact be the dumbest freaks around!
    fully agree.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    Considering some of our elected officials we have we may in fact be the dumbest freaks around!
    fully agree.
    Chances are, we didn't have the same ones in mind but that is alright because we get to express dissenting points of view here without prison terms attached, unlike Cuba
  • Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭
    dennisking:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    Highest amount of doctorate degrees per capita of any nation
    As an owner of a doctorate degree, I have to tell you that it is no indicator of intelligence. In fact, it's probably closer to the opposite.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.
    I take that back, cuba isn't the best in the world. As of 2010 the Neatherlands are. but we are dead last once again.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/23/us-usa-healthcare-last-idUSTRE65M0SU20100623
    I know your all about private health care however it doesn't work. Well let me put it this way, private companies taking money for care by private doctors. Which is basically like the MOB. I mean we pay more and more to these companies only to be screwed more and more. When its a fact that the govt can do the insurance's job much more efficiently and cheaper. I mean wow, pay less for health care or pay more...? Not a hard choice. Oh and I don't see any for profit health care countries making the best lists for health care.

    on a recent personal note, I have a good insurance plan through atena, and my wife has a so-so one through... I think united healthcare. Anyhoo she has allergies so the doctor wanted her to take these shots which are suppose to take care of a lot of it. Well certain allergies need different shots, so she needed three. Now these are suppose to be done frequently and they are damn expensive. Some like 400 or even higher a piece. So my insurance has a 150 dollar co-pay. Hers has 3000 dollar co-pay. Now one would think, she can use mine, as she is secondary. Well no, my insurance company bumped up the co-pay to 1500! so the 150 co-pay went up to 1500 because she has access to another health insurer.
    Now wtf? I mean we pay these companies every month so we should be able to use both or at least chose which one as some have better prices on certain things. But no!, we are F-d and some A-holes who rake in billions of dollars a year are laughing at us while they fly around on jets and light cigars with 100 dollar bills (yeah I embellished a bit there).
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Ken Light:
    dennisking:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    Highest amount of doctorate degrees per capita of any nation
    As an owner of a doctorate degree, I have to tell you that it is no indicator of intelligence. In fact, it's probably closer to the opposite.
    well more often than not it is, I mean people who spend that much time and effort to achieve something like that would be. however I agree that a degree doesn't make one smarter. I mean I had a high A average through school and college but at times I just didn't like the material and chose not to devote much effort into it and got a bad grade

    And then some of the greatest minds in the history of the world where from the lower class of uneducated.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.
    You are absolutely right Kuzi there are other great minds in all fields all over the world.
    I think the point being made was that from listening to say, the arguements put forward during the Medicare debate in the U.S. one would think that a great number of important Americans do indeed believe that Private Health Care is the BEST health care available, for all the tired old reasons.
    It was just nice to be able to point to an example of creative and inovative thinking coming from a country that many here believe do not possess those traits.
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    phobicsquirrel:
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    some of the best health care in the world buddy... :::cough::: :::cough::: no (not many) private insurers there though... hehe.
    there are plenty of doctors in the US and other locations that have done other good things in cancer research. if the country is socialized or not has absolutely zero relevance to weather there are smart people living there doing good things. this one article is no indication that socialized medicine is the way to go.
    it is exactly like saying one cold or hot day or week is any indication on if global warming is or is not happening.
    on that note, i do hope the embargo is lifted and this treatment is the catalyst that sparks that.
    I take that back, cuba isn't the best in the world. As of 2010 the Neatherlands are. but we are dead last once again.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/23/us-usa-healthcare-last-idUSTRE65M0SU20100623
    I know your all about private health care however it doesn't work. Well let me put it this way, private companies taking money for care by private doctors. Which is basically like the MOB. I mean we pay more and more to these companies only to be screwed more and more. When its a fact that the govt can do the insurance's job much more efficiently and cheaper. I mean wow, pay less for health care or pay more...? Not a hard choice. Oh and I don't see any for profit health care countries making the best lists for health care.

    on a recent personal note, I have a good insurance plan through atena, and my wife has a so-so one through... I think united healthcare. Anyhoo she has allergies so the doctor wanted her to take these shots which are suppose to take care of a lot of it. Well certain allergies need different shots, so she needed three. Now these are suppose to be done frequently and they are damn expensive. Some like 400 or even higher a piece. So my insurance has a 150 dollar co-pay. Hers has 3000 dollar co-pay. Now one would think, she can use mine, as she is secondary. Well no, my insurance company bumped up the co-pay to 1500! so the 150 co-pay went up to 1500 because she has access to another health insurer.
    Now wtf? I mean we pay these companies every month so we should be able to use both or at least chose which one as some have better prices on certain things. But no!, we are F-d and some A-holes who rake in billions of dollars a year are laughing at us while they fly around on jets and light cigars with 100 dollar bills (yeah I embellished a bit there).


    Sorry Pheebs for your wife's allergy problems . And the insurance hassel as well . Allergys are a pain in the butt , my wife is bothered by them every summer . Hope you guys are able to get it under control at a reasonable cost .
  • denniskingdennisking Posts: 3,703 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    dennisking:
    laker1963:
    Kewl article Joe, thanks.

    Not bad for a backwards commie country. I do love labels:)
    Highest amount of doctorate degrees per capita of any nation
    As an owner of a doctorate degree, I have to tell you that it is no indicator of intelligence. In fact, it's probably closer to the opposite.
    the point was, free education up to the doctorate level allows for more people to study more subjects that lead to more cures. it's a fact. you mention owner because essentially you not only earned your degree but also bought it because it had to be paid for. the degree in Cuba is earned and not purchased. no amount of money can get you the correct experience.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    I call BS - one of the poorest, and only Communist nations in the world manages to find a vaccine to cell proliferation for lung cancer? I'll believe it when a Western science journal reviews it and puts it through clinical trials not under the whim of a brutal dictator. Until then, it's about as believable as the old Soviets or *** declaring they had created the perfect aryan race.

    EDIT - you're **** me - "****'s" without the apostrophe is censored?

    dennisking:
    the point was, free education up to the doctorate level allows for more people to study more subjects that lead to more cures. it's a fact. you mention owner because essentially you not only earned your degree but also bought it because it had to be paid for. the degree in Cuba is earned and not purchased. no amount of money can get you the correct experience.
    A crown and purple vest on a monkey don't make it a king/You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig (pick your preferred metaphor)

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    I call BS - one of the poorest, and only Communist nations in the world manages to find a vaccine to cell proliferation for lung cancer? I'll believe it when a Western science journal reviews it and puts it through clinical trials not under the whim of a brutal dictator. Until then, it's about as believable as the old Soviets or *** declaring they had created the perfect aryan race.

    EDIT - you're **** me - "****'s" without the apostrophe is censored?

    dennisking:
    the point was, free education up to the doctorate level allows for more people to study more subjects that lead to more cures. it's a fact. you mention owner because essentially you not only earned your degree but also bought it because it had to be paid for. the degree in Cuba is earned and not purchased. no amount of money can get you the correct experience.
    A crown and purple vest on a monkey don't make it a king/You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig (pick your preferred metaphor)

    Maybe it's time to check your batteries Xmacro. You sure seem bitter these days.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    I call BS - one of the poorest, and only Communist nations in the world manages to find a vaccine to cell proliferation for lung cancer? I'll believe it when a Western science journal reviews it and puts it through clinical trials not under the whim of a brutal dictator. Until then, it's about as believable as the old Soviets or *** declaring they had created the perfect aryan race.

    EDIT - you're **** me - "****'s" without the apostrophe is censored?

    dennisking:
    the point was, free education up to the doctorate level allows for more people to study more subjects that lead to more cures. it's a fact. you mention owner because essentially you not only earned your degree but also bought it because it had to be paid for. the degree in Cuba is earned and not purchased. no amount of money can get you the correct experience.
    A crown and purple vest on a monkey don't make it a king/You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig (pick your preferred metaphor)

    Maybe it's time to check your batteries Xmacro. You sure seem bitter these days.
    You're telling me that you believe Fidel/Raul Castro's claims that they cured cancer, without any proof beyond a press release? If so, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,826 ✭✭✭
    Really X????Ive been loking for a bridge...where is the location?
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Vulchor:
    Really X????Ive been loking for a bridge...where is the location?
    Money (or cigars) first, then I'll give you the deed ;)
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 5,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    EDIT - you're **** me - "****'s" without the apostrophe is censored?

    Ironic, No?
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "There is nothing so in need of reforming as someone else's bad habits."   Mark Twain
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Indeed :/
  • j0z3rj0z3r Posts: 9,403
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    I call BS - one of the poorest, and only Communist nations in the world manages to find a vaccine to cell proliferation for lung cancer? I'll believe it when a Western science journal reviews it and puts it through clinical trials not under the whim of a brutal dictator. Until then, it's about as believable as the old Soviets or *** declaring they had created the perfect aryan race.

    EDIT - you're **** me - "****'s" without the apostrophe is censored?

    dennisking:
    the point was, free education up to the doctorate level allows for more people to study more subjects that lead to more cures. it's a fact. you mention owner because essentially you not only earned your degree but also bought it because it had to be paid for. the degree in Cuba is earned and not purchased. no amount of money can get you the correct experience.
    A crown and purple vest on a monkey don't make it a king/You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig (pick your preferred metaphor)

    Maybe it's time to check your batteries Xmacro. You sure seem bitter these days.
    You're telling me that you believe Fidel/Raul Castro's claims that they cured cancer, without any proof beyond a press release? If so, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you
    Nobody said they cured cancer. And since you're so adamant that it can't be true, where is your proof that it doesn't work? And before you put any words in my mouth, I don't believe or dis-believe this, just found the article interesting.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Same argument back at you - Prove to me that this won't cure cancer, gout, indigestion and AIDS:

    image

    If you google it, Cuba has been claiming since 1995 that they've "discovered" the cure to cancer with scorpion venom.

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Lung cancer vaccine 'extends terminal patients lives' LUNG CANCER February 19, 2009|By Shasta Darlington CNN

    Terminal lung cancer patients are living longer thanks to the world's first registered lung cancer vaccine, a leading Cuban scientist says.

    Dr. Gisela Gonzalez has spent years researching the vaccine which the Cuban government approved for the use of the general public last year.

    Gonzalez and her team have worked on developing the CimaVax EGF vaccine at the Cuban Center of Molecular Immunology since the early 1990s.

    She says all those years of hard work have finally paid off as trials show that Cubans with lung cancer are living a little longer after having the vaccine.

    "One of my early patients was a 32-year-old man when he started taking the vaccine. I had a son that age," the scientist told CNN.

    "Now he's 35. He's living and working. He visited us the other day and said he's thinking about having kids."

    Gonzalez says that more than 700 patients have received the vaccine over the years, many of them in seven clinical trials in Cuba, Canada and the UK.

    More than 400 advanced lung cancer patients received the Vaccine CimaVax EGF in the trials, according to the Latin American News Agency.

    The trials showed that the drug extended the life of terminal patients by an average of four months, and in some cases several years, compared with those patients who only received traditional therapies. Younger patients tended to fare better.

    "It has the potential to be very important," according to Dr. Howard Burris, director of drug development at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute in Nashville, Tennessee.

    He said the results were comparable to those being produced by two other lung cancer vaccines, GVAX and BLP 25, being developed in the United States.

    "Larger trials will show there are subsets that it's very good for and for others it's not relevant," he said.

    CimaVax EGF does not prevent or cure lung cancer. It is a therapeutic vaccine which stimulates the patient's body to make an antibody against the epidermal growth factor (EGF), which is a key driver causing lung cancer cells to grow.

    It is used in conjunction with chemotherapy and radiation therapy which reduce the size of the initial tumor.

    "With this kind of product, maybe cancer, advanced cancer, can be treated like any other chronic disease like diabetes," Dr. Gonzalez said during a recent tour of her modern laboratory in Havana.

    Medical services, even the most costly, are provided free of charge in communist Cuba. CimaVax EGF is now part of routine treatment for advanced lung cancer patients.

  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Well, if someone says it on the tv, it must be true. Like this CNN story - 60,000 Cuban people cured/lives improved, with a miraculous potion of distilled water and scorpion venom

    If you'll take careful note, none of these "miracle cures" have ever been demonstrated to work OUTSIDE of Cuba - not in Europe, Canada, Australia, China, India, Russia, Iran - anywhere. Don't you think that it's just a LITTLE funny that one of the most repressive nations on earth finds a "miracle" cure, but for an unexplained reason, the only people who say it works are ones inside Cuba?

    Scorpion venom: A cure for cancer?

    From Lucia Newman, CNN Havana Bureau Chief, Oct. 2003

    HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Niurys Monzon, 28, says she is a living proof that it works.

    "I was eleven when I was diagnosed," she said, "and started taking Escozul when I was fifteen."

    Her father, Jose Felipe Monzon told CNN that in 1992 her cancer of the pancreas had spread despite two years of chemotherapy, radiation treatment and three operations and that doctors had given up.

    In desperation, he turned to a man named Misael Bordier, a biologist from Guantanamo who was experimenting with scorpion venom on cancerous tumors in rats and dogs.

    According to Bordier, the test results were astonishing.

    "The immune system of the benign cells increases, the malignant cells start dying and the tumors shrink or disappear," he explained.

    "We saw how some 85 percent of the rats survived."

    Niurys was his first human patient.

    She and her father were so grateful they began breeding scorpions -- they now have 3,000 of them -- and under Bordier's direction are distributing the venom at no cost from their home.

    Twice a week they dispense hundreds of bottles of the unusual liquid -- a potion made of distilled water mixed with drops of venom from the blue scorpion.

    People from all over Cuba and even abroad come to their home, seeking an unorthodox treatment for cancer.

    "Doctors gave my father a month to live and said they could do nothing because he had nine brain tumors," said Radel Cortez who came to pick up more of the scorpion poison he believes has prolonged his father's life for the last seven months.

    The Monzons says the only problem is a shortage of the raw material for their treatment. There aren't enough little blue scorpions to meet the demand.

    Bordier told CNN some 60,000 Cubans have used the Escozul to treat their cancer in just over a decade.

    Niurys and Jose Monzon admit they haven't gathered any scientifically controlled data, but say from their experience 80 percent of patients show a marked improvement in quality and duration of life, and of those 25 to 30 percent go into remission.

    But Cuba's Oncology Institute is skeptical and says more tests need to be run to determine whether Escozul does indeed work. Cuba's largest laboratory, Labiofam, is already conducting experiments.

    In the meantime, people will continue to come here for Escozul, which provides if not a miracle cure, at least a last ray of hope.


    UPDATE - the new "cure" being peddled this past week is indeed the same water+scorpion venom from the 2003 story: http://havanajournal.com/culture/entry/scorpion_concoctions_escozul_cancer_treatment

    Like I said before, show me one scintilla of evidence that this "cure" works outside an area controlled by the Castro's, and I'll take it more seriously. But when every story about this is coming from people who could "disappear" at the whim of the Castro's, I hope you'll understand if I have trouble believing any of it

  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    If you had read the article instead of scanning it looking for your rebuttal you would have seen this sentence...

    Gonzalez says that more than 700 patients have received the vaccine over the years, many of them in seven clinical trials in Cuba, Canada and the UK.

    I would also like to point out to you the irony of your first statement...Well, if someone says it on the tv, it must be true. Like this CNN story - 60,000 Cuban people cured/lives improved, with a miraculous potion of distilled water and scorpion venom.

    Do you have ANY idea the number of "cures" or vaccines in the world already which do derive from just such natural sources? Are you so foolish to believe that it isn't "real medicine" unless it is synthethized and reduced to it's lowest chemical compounds?

    Talk about wanting to sell me a bridge. Man I have rarely met anyone as fully indoctrinated as you. Trying to have a serious, adult discussion with you is just impossible. You can safely put your blinders back on now, nothing to see here.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    If you had read the article instead of scanning it looking for your rebuttal you would have seen this sentence...

    Gonzalez says that more than 700 patients have received the vaccine over the years, many of them in seven clinical trials in Cuba, Canada and the UK.

    I would also like to point out to you the irony of your first statement...Well, if someone says it on the tv, it must be true. Like this CNN story - 60,000 Cuban people cured/lives improved, with a miraculous potion of distilled water and scorpion venom.

    Do you have ANY idea the number of "cures" or vaccines in the world already which do derive from just such natural sources? Are you so foolish to believe that it isn't "real medicine" unless it is synthethized and reduced to it's lowest chemical compounds?

    Talk about wanting to sell me a bridge. Man I have rarely met anyone as fully indoctrinated as you. Trying to have a serious, adult discussion with you is just impossible. You can safely put your blinders back on now, nothing to see here.
    Again with the ad hominem's - you really do belong with Amos and wwestern. Iis it really so difficult to have an argument without calling the other side a liar? Is it so difficult to debate with someone and admit your opponent has the best of intentions? Or do you need to label people who disagree with you, to act like you're the only one with good intentions?

    Take note of this Laker - I may call you a fool because I disagree with your opinions, but I've never questioned your good intentions or called you a liar or a hyperpartisan like you call me.



    I'm asking for evidence that this "cure" works outside an area controlled by a guy with the last name Castro, and you're calling me a hyperpartisan with blinders on.

    What is so difficult about this concept that you keep missing? You're believing a story from a communist nation in which all dissent is dragged out into the street and shot.

    Like I said - show me one scintilla of evidence that it has worked in a clinic NOT in Cuba, but in a Western (FYI - America, Europe, Canada, etc - the Western nations) clinical setting and I'll be inclined to believe it; they can say it's been done in a clinical setting in the UK/Canada all they want, but show me some proof of it first. Until then, this "scorpion venom + water" cure is nothing more than snake oil from a regime that shoots anyone who tries to escape and fails; there's no evidence outside Cuba that it works - and you're ready to swallow the entire hoax hook line and sinker because you think the cure to a disease that's very likely genetic, is to be found in poisoning oneself with a scorpion.



    If North Korea "found" the cure to AIDs from tree sap, and said they cured 100,000 people with it, none of whom you could medically examine, would you believe it? What if they said "everyone who doesn't believe we can cure AIDs with tree sap is an indoctrinated hyperpartisan who's unwilling to have an adult conversation or believe in the healing power of nature"?

    That's your argument in a nutshell - you not only believe a story with no evidence, but you're attacking me personally, calling me a child and a hyperpartisan, for asking for evidence. Children believe in Santa and the Easter bunny without any proof; adults know to ask for evidence before believing a fat man in a sled can fly.

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