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More on smoking and rights

havanaalhavanaal Posts: 155 ✭✭
I find it interesting the number of people here who think restrictions on smoking (especially cigarette smoking) are reasonable, or even necessary. I feel differently, mainly because I see rights as a more black and white issue. That is, I'm a dyed in the wool Libertarian who feels that taking away a right previously enjoyed for centuries is pretty damn serious. Having said that, here's a legitimate question: I purposely hang out in establishments that allow me to smoke. Lately they're getting harder to find, and I have retreated to the local Indian Reservation/Resort/Casinos where I can smoke virtually anywhere on the property. But as you might imagine there are many people out there who flat out hate the smell of cigar smoke, and make it clear they wish I would go away--I'm sure we're all familiar with the disgusting faces and waving hands. Now, in the old days, I would respect their wishes and go away. But because smokers are under the gun now, I entrench, and ignore them, as if to say "If you don't like the atmosphere, go to the other 99% of public areas around here that are smoke free!" I don't give an inch. Am I being a snob? Am I giving cigar smokers a bad name? How does one be considerate in an atmosphere like this?
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Comments

  • Dude LoveDude Love Posts: 315
    I find the best reply is "but I'm smoking for the children!" The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    havanaal:
    I find it interesting the number of people here who think restrictions on smoking (especially cigarette smoking) are reasonable, or even necessary. I feel differently, mainly because I see rights as a more black and white issue. That is, I'm a dyed in the wool Libertarian who feels that taking away a right previously enjoyed for centuries is pretty damn serious. Having said that, here's a legitimate question: I purposely hang out in establishments that allow me to smoke. Lately they're getting harder to find, and I have retreated to the local Indian Reservation/Resort/Casinos where I can smoke virtually anywhere on the property. But as you might imagine there are many people out there who flat out hate the smell of cigar smoke, and make it clear they wish I would go away--I'm sure we're all familiar with the disgusting faces and waving hands. Now, in the old days, I would respect their wishes and go away. But because smokers are under the gun now, I entrench, and ignore them, as if to say "If you don't like the atmosphere, go to the other 99% of public areas around here that are smoke free!" I don't give an inch. Am I being a snob? Am I giving cigar smokers a bad name? How does one be considerate in an atmosphere like this?

    well if we are going to be backed into a figurative corner then the few places we are allowed to smoke in SHOULD be smoked in. The first person waving their hands and making faces I would point out the non-smoking areas to them and stand my ground, which for me is pretty easy to do ...
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    When you have regulation that specifically creates areas that don't allow smoking, the non-smoker has a lot less leverage in requesting that smokers refrain in a smoking environment. Like you said, they can go to the other 99% of places that don't allow smoking. That is a side-effect of the law, and one that the non-smokers must learn to live with in the same way that smokers must live with the restrictions.
  • urbinourbino Posts: 4,517
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.
  • brc81brc81 Posts: 249
    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.
    We'll see about that once people quit smoking in droves. There won't be any money to pay for the kid's healthcare when less tax money is generated. They had an article in our local paper that since the passing of SCHIP local smoking cessation classes have seen a 400% spike in enrollment.
  • Rob1110Rob1110 Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭
    I'm one to completely agree with smoking bans in certain areas, but for small business owners such as bar owners and cigar shop owners and the occasional casino, I believe it should be up to the owner of the establishment to decide whether or not they want to allow smoking. Then, from there, it is up to the patrons of that establishment to decide whether or not they want to support that business. I know I wouldn't hang at bars that allowed smoking all the time. I go to a cigar bar knowing that I'm going to be in that environment and if I don't want to be exposed to smoke, I just won't go there. Keep in mind, I'm up here in Mass where government officials know much better what's good for me than I do. The smoking bans are getting worse and worse - as bad in Boston to go as far as giving cigar bars 5 years to close their doors.
  • VidarienVidarien Posts: 246

    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.

     

    I dont know, the tax annoys me but...i guess i can live with paying an extra 5 or 6 bucks per 20 sticks  if it means a bunch of 6 year olds arent going to be sent up the creek if they get MRSA or something and their parents wont bankrupt themselves to take them in to the doc.

     

    I mean with SCHIP, at least i know exactly where that tax is going.

  • Dude LoveDude Love Posts: 315
    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.



    Pssh, what've kids ever done for me? WHEN DO I GET MY SHARE??!!!
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    Vidarien:

    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.

     

    I dont know, the tax annoys me but...i guess i can live with paying an extra 5 or 6 bucks per 20 sticks  if it means a bunch of 6 year olds arent going to be sent up the creek if they get MRSA or something and their parents wont bankrupt themselves to take them in to the doc.

     

    I mean with SCHIP, at least i know exactly where that tax is going.

    I just don't share that opinion. Cigars are already taxed to hell and back. If anything the money should come from some where else. I don't see why this had to ever be an issue. seriously our govt really needs to take a look at what they are doing. Taxing everything shouldn't be the answer. It just pisses me off that's all.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    Rob1110:
    I'm one to completely agree with smoking bans in certain areas, but for small business owners such as bar owners and cigar shop owners and the occasional casino, I believe it should be up to the owner of the establishment to decide whether or not they want to allow smoking. Then, from there, it is up to the patrons of that establishment to decide whether or not they want to support that business. I know I wouldn't hang at bars that allowed smoking all the time. I go to a cigar bar knowing that I'm going to be in that environment and if I don't want to be exposed to smoke, I just won't go there. Keep in mind, I'm up here in Mass where government officials know much better what's good for me than I do. The smoking bans are getting worse and worse - as bad in Boston to go as far as giving cigar bars 5 years to close their doors.
    that is just F'd up. one would think that it could not lawfully be done. hopefully this is what will happen.
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    brc81:
    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.
    We'll see about that once people quit smoking in droves. There won't be any money to pay for the kid's healthcare when less tax money is generated. They had an article in our local paper that since the passing of SCHIP local smoking cessation classes have seen a 400% spike in enrollment.
    naturally.. it early in the year, and they're getting a resolution crowd. My wife works at the YMCA, and they call this time of the year "tourist season." You can come up with this statistic every year.
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    phobicsquirrel:
    Cigars are already taxed to hell and back.
    No they're not. 5 cent cap per cigar... 5 cents.
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    phobicsquirrel:
    Rob1110:
    I'm one to completely agree with smoking bans in certain areas, but for small business owners such as bar owners and cigar shop owners and the occasional casino, I believe it should be up to the owner of the establishment to decide whether or not they want to allow smoking. Then, from there, it is up to the patrons of that establishment to decide whether or not they want to support that business. I know I wouldn't hang at bars that allowed smoking all the time. I go to a cigar bar knowing that I'm going to be in that environment and if I don't want to be exposed to smoke, I just won't go there. Keep in mind, I'm up here in Mass where government officials know much better what's good for me than I do. The smoking bans are getting worse and worse - as bad in Boston to go as far as giving cigar bars 5 years to close their doors.
    that is just F'd up. one would think that it could not lawfully be done. hopefully this is what will happen.
    They aren't forcing the bar to close its doors. They are making it unlawful to smoke, thereby changing its business model. Still unfair, but one of the problems I have with the right these days is their tendency to overdramatize statements in order to make an impact. But then it's really just lying.
  • ScottUScottU Posts: 194
    I live in Washington state, where it is a $100 fine on the spot if you are found smoking in a public building or with 25ft of it's doors. Personally I hate this law, even though I can't stand cigarette smoke, I think that it should be up to the owner of the business to decide, and then the patrons will sort themselves out.

    As far as the SCHIP tax.. I don't even know, our government is so screwed up already, lets just throw a few more taxes in to see if we can sort it out...right? Tongue Tied [:S]
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Dude Love:
    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.



    Pssh, what've kids ever done for me? WHEN DO I GET MY SHARE??!!!
    i know this was posted as a half joke but...

    the problem with taxing one group/action to support another is the taxed group will never be able to support the other for the long term. In this case the money from taxing cigars and cigarettes will start to shrink due to people smoking less. even before the tax was there people were smoking less, now many more are considering quitting because of the price of a pack of cigarettes. (itll be about $6.80 ish a pack here in ohio) since there will then be little money from that tax they have to do one of two things:
    1) raise the tax on tobacco (this will bring on even less smoking)
    or
    2) impose a new tax on some other Item.
    the cycle will then continue on that item.
    the biggest problem with using someone elses money is that you will always run out of someone elses money; either because they actually have no more money or because they are fed up with paying for goods and services of others.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.


  • LukoLuko Posts: 2,003 ✭✭
    Given the option of infriging on someone's rights and not infringing, I would always side with not infringing when reasonable.

    However, I pretty much abhor cigarette smoke and can't stand to be around it. In fact, it got to the point when I went out to bars and was around it, I felt like my reaction was allergic. My eyes would burn and water and it would give me a terrible headache (not the alcohol). When PA banned smoking in restaurants/bars that serve a certain percentage of food, I found going there so much more enjoyable. And I drank more. So I go more frequently and I drink more - they're making up lots of tax revenue there, especiallly since the county where I drink instituted a 1 percent alcohol tax last year to pay for public transportation, which was ridiculous in its own right.
  • KriegKrieg Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭
    Vidarien:

    urbino:
    Dude Love:
    The only thing SCHIP is good for: arguing with snobbish non-smokers.
    Well, you know, that and providing health care for kids.

     

     

    I mean with SCHIP, at least i know exactly where that tax is going.

    like we know where Social Security is going...medicare....medicaide....oh yeah...I forgot, they spent all that money on pork.

    "Long ashes my friends."

  • rwheelwrightrwheelwright Posts: 3,296
    I hate to chime in here like I did with the last similar topic but I am bored and I feel strongly on a few things.

    First, I don't understand where the government gets the right to tax tobacco and alcohol as much as it does. Since it is not an illegal product it should tax it like any other product if it should tax it at all. The same goes for Gas. Everybody has their hand in that cookie jar. Federal, state, local, all have taxes. Ridiculous! Too much soda can cause health problems too yet soda is taxed at whatever the state tax is. No additional taxes to fund other programs that I know of.

    Two, with all the money the government is spending on anti-smoking campaigns they are wasting the money since they are now charging more taxes on tobacco which they hope will fund another campaign. Tobacco is not like alcohol. Too much alcohol can impare judgement so I can understand there being an age limit. As far as I know, tobacco does not impare judgement so it should not have an age limit on it. Not that I want to see young kids smoking but I don't think there should be a limit. This is just another form of control. And I know in a lot of states it used to be 18 to buy cigarettes and now in NJ I believe it is 19. So, at 18 you are legal but you still can not buy tobacco related products until you are 19. So much for being legal.

    Three, taxing isn't always the answer. How about spending less money on bullshit stuff! Make our government purchases be worth it and not just throw money at it. The goverment needs to be responsible for its spending just like it wants these companies like AIG to be responsible. The government needs to invest more in our own country. If I remember correctly, we fund other contracts that are outside the US. We NEED to move funding over to US based companies. Now, if the US companies think they can charge more for being American then they need their **** kicked. They need to be resonabale. If they want business they need to be competitive. That goes for companies and employees or should I just say the US workforce. I'm sure there are plenty of jobs out there but Americans have begun to think that certain jobs are below them and those jobs are not good enough for them. Part of that is what has gotten us into this problem with illegals. The illegals will do that job the americans don't want to do and will happily do it because they are making money, and most likely getting paid cash too. So, as much as I would like to see our standard of living be higher I would like to see as many Americans working as possible even if those jobs are not ideal. Sometimes, pride needs to be put aside. Would you rather have a job that pays less and your pride suffers or have no job at all and fail to survive? i would rather bury my pride and get by than loose all my possessions, family, etc... The american workers need to let these people who are hiring illegals know that they are willing to do the job and work just as hard so that it isn't profitable for the illegals to come here anymore. And I have stated this before, anyone caught hiring illegals should be arrested to deter them from doing it in the future. The cost benefit shouldn't be there anymore!

    OK, I am done!
  • Dude LoveDude Love Posts: 315
    kuzi16:
    i know this was posted as a half joke but...

    the problem with taxing one group/action to support another is the taxed group will never be able to support the other for the long term. In this case the money from taxing cigars and cigarettes will start to shrink due to people smoking less. even before the tax was there people were smoking less, now many more are considering quitting because of the price of a pack of cigarettes. (itll be about $6.80 ish a pack here in ohio) since there will then be little money from that tax they have to do one of two things:
    1) raise the tax on tobacco (this will bring on even less smoking)
    or
    2) impose a new tax on some other Item.
    the cycle will then continue on that item.
    the biggest problem with using someone elses money is that you will always run out of someone elses money; either because they actually have no more money or because they are fed up with paying for goods and services of others.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.




    Exactly. I was just talking today with a classmate who said he was probably going to quit when they hike the taxes again, as he's already paying around $5 for a pack of Marlboros. The more people that quit, SURPRISE, the less money there is for this genius tax. I'd be willing to bet that they'll go after alcohol next. Or high gas consumption/high emmission vehicles (if they haven't already?).
  • rwheelwrightrwheelwright Posts: 3,296
    Dude Love:
    kuzi16:
    i know this was posted as a half joke but...

    the problem with taxing one group/action to support another is the taxed group will never be able to support the other for the long term. In this case the money from taxing cigars and cigarettes will start to shrink due to people smoking less. even before the tax was there people were smoking less, now many more are considering quitting because of the price of a pack of cigarettes. (itll be about $6.80 ish a pack here in ohio) since there will then be little money from that tax they have to do one of two things:
    1) raise the tax on tobacco (this will bring on even less smoking)
    or
    2) impose a new tax on some other Item.
    the cycle will then continue on that item.
    the biggest problem with using someone elses money is that you will always run out of someone elses money; either because they actually have no more money or because they are fed up with paying for goods and services of others.

    the individual will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses.




    Exactly. I was just talking today with a classmate who said he was probably going to quit when they hike the taxes again, as he's already paying around $5 for a pack of Marlboros. The more people that quit, SURPRISE, the less money there is for this genius tax. I'd be willing to bet that they'll go after alcohol next. Or high gas consumption/high emmission vehicles (if they haven't already?).
    They already here in NJ. I have an 01 S4 and my friend has an 04 S4. Mine is a V6 Twin Turbo and his is a V8 non Turbo. Same gas mileage. He got charged a gas guzzler tax and I didn't. They assume, V8=gas guzzler. Interesting to note though the the vette until recently was the only V8 that did not have a gas guzzler tax because of it's weight I believe.

    Oh and speaking of alcohol. Some states or even towns and counties are **** weird when it comes to alcohol laws. In Bergan Country, NJ you can;t by alcohol on Sundays and they are a lot of shops that are closed due to laws. Better yet, I remember my friend was in a supermarket on a Sunday and should could by food but when she went to buy a sponge they wouldn't let her because you can't buy sponges on Sundays.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    rwheelwright:
    This is just another form of control.
    thats what its all about. it has nothing to do with revenue.
  • Smoke=FireSmoke=Fire Posts: 692 ✭✭✭
    rwheelwright:
    Too much soda can cause health problems too yet soda is taxed at whatever the state tax is. No additional taxes to fund other programs that I know of.
    If they really want to do something for the health of this country, put a $10.00/cup tax on partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. We in America are in more danger of becoming obese and dying of congestive heart failure than anything else.

    The following is an excerpt from a testimony given by the Surgeon General in 2003.

    "As Surgeon General, I welcome this chance to talk with you about a health crisis affecting every state, every city, every community, and every school across our great nation.

    The crisis is obesity. It’s the fastest-growing cause of disease and death in America. And it’s completely preventable.

    Nearly two out of every three Americans are overweight or obese. One out of every eight deaths in America is caused by an illness directly related to overweight and obesity."

    I will agree that tobacco use raises the risk of certain cancers; I don't think it takes a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out. But if you are concerned with national health, let's look at the big picture. Ban sugar and PHVO before you take down tobacco, and see what that does for national health.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    Smoke=Fire:
    rwheelwright:
    Too much soda can cause health problems too yet soda is taxed at whatever the state tax is. No additional taxes to fund other programs that I know of.
    If they really want to do something for the health of this country, put a $10.00/cup tax on partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. We in America are in more danger of becoming obese and dying of congestive heart failure than anything else.

    The following is an excerpt from a testimony given by the Surgeon General in 2003.

    "As Surgeon General, I welcome this chance to talk with you about a health crisis affecting every state, every city, every community, and every school across our great nation.

    The crisis is obesity. It’s the fastest-growing cause of disease and death in America. And it’s completely preventable.

    Nearly two out of every three Americans are overweight or obese. One out of every eight deaths in America is caused by an illness directly related to overweight and obesity."

    I will agree that tobacco use raises the risk of certain cancers; I don't think it takes a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out. But if you are concerned with national health, let's look at the big picture. Ban sugar and PHVO before you take down tobacco, and see what that does for national health.
    dont give em any ideas.


    and its not the governments job to keep me healthy.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol

    Cigars today......Nuts tommorow
  • ScottUScottU Posts: 194
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol
    That's sadly true... Maybe if they raised the tax on fast food, people would quit that too... It would generate a helluva lot more money than cigars..
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭
    gmill880:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol

    Cigars today......Nuts tommorow
    say it ain't so..
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    phobicsquirrel:
    gmill880:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol

    Cigars today......Nuts tommorow
    say it ain't so..

    If we taxed political insanity we could erase the deficit, eliminate world hunger, cure cancer, and put a humidor in every household ........in less than a week ....
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    ScottU:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol
    That's sadly true... Maybe if they raised the tax on fast food, people would quit that too... It would generate a helluva lot more money than cigars..
    its not about generating money. its about control.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,633 ✭✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    gmill880:
    phobicsquirrel:
    I'll go on record on saying obesity is more of a concern than smoking. fast food should be on the radar not smoking. fast food tax, not cigar tax!!! lol

    Cigars today......Nuts tommorow
    say it ain't so..
    it is so. thats how the government works. once they cant squeeze anything else out of the smokers tey will find another group that is in the minority and that you may or may not belong to and start to tax the hell out of them.
    I dont eat fast food very often. I still dont think they should be taxed anymore. I dont smoke cigarettes but i dont think they should be taxed anymore. I dont go to bars and drink to the point of self destruction, but i dont think liquor should b taxed more.

    the government will always try and fix whatever they feel is a "problem" with taxes. the real problem is the taxes and the government intervention.

    just leave me the *** alone. PLEASE
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