I'd be very curious about the response(s) you guys get from George.
Bob L., have you smoked any others from the mazo? Let us know how the others smoke. I'm wondering if I need to get a mazo if they truly are getting towards the end of this tobacco, or if it's already too late....or if we're creating a panic for no reason LOL!
I was confused earlier when catfish mentioned George. I Had Alex in my head because someone mentioned Alex before Catfish mentioned George. I had sent a PM to Alex. So if you (or anyone) could give me just a tad bit more info on George I'll send him a PM too. As far as smoking these, I'm a little worried I'd get a mouthful of dust if the rest are like the one I opened up. Looks like they swept up the floor around the factory and these were rolled right in the dustpan. I've never smoked these before. But, I got a great deal on the sprint sale and was looking forward to them based on their good reputation. And I'm not trying to trash talk about them. I'm hoping they will be really good. I'm just looking for answers. Maybe, just maybe, I'll try one tomorrow.
I think George Rico, I believe he's "the Man" at Gran Habano
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I'd be very curious about the response(s) you guys get from George.
Bob L., have you smoked any others from the mazo? Let us know how the others smoke. I'm wondering if I need to get a mazo if they truly are getting towards the end of this tobacco, or if it's already too late....or if we're creating a panic for no reason LOL!
I was confused earlier when catfish mentioned George. I Had Alex in my head because someone mentioned Alex before Catfish mentioned George. I had sent a PM to Alex. So if you (or anyone) could give me just a tad bit more info on George I'll send him a PM too. As far as smoking these, I'm a little worried I'd get a mouthful of dust if the rest are like the one I opened up. Looks like they swept up the floor around the factory and these were rolled right in the dustpan. I've never smoked these before. But, I got a great deal on the sprint sale and was looking forward to them based on their good reputation. And I'm not trying to trash talk about them. I'm hoping they will be really good. I'm just looking for answers. Maybe, just maybe, I'll try one tomorrow.
I think George Rico, I believe he's "the Man" at Gran Habano
Yup, I did a review of the Zulu and hes a pretty cool cat. Very interactive with his consumers. Let me know Bob, and I'll shoot him a message.
Thanks. That would be fine. I called ccom and they told me they were supposed to be long filler and they are sending me a replacement mazo. But, Mr. Rico might also want to know about this.
I called ccom and they were most helpful and are sending a replacement mazo and a return label for the ones I have. The customer service rep said that he was certain that they were supposed to be long filler. My friend and I carefully smoked two of them this past weekend and they were pretty damn good. I'm gonna cut one open from of the new mazo and see what the inside of those looks like.
I called ccom and they were most helpful and are sending a replacement mazo and a return label for the ones I have. The customer service rep said that he was certain that they were supposed to be long filler. My friend and I carefully smoked two of them this past weekend and they were pretty damn good. I'm gonna cut one open from of the new mazo and see what the inside of those looks like.
Wow, they're replacing the entire mazo? That is just freakin incredible. There is just no question that c.com is the best around.
Thanks for keeping us posted on these and I'm glad your subsequent sticks were better than that first one. Hopefully it was just a freak occurence, like maybe it was 4:55 pm on a Friday and the torcedor had to squeeze in one last stick for his daily quota or something!
I called ccom and they were most helpful and are sending a replacement mazo and a return label for the ones I have. The customer service rep said that he was certain that they were supposed to be long filler. My friend and I carefully smoked two of them this past weekend and they were pretty damn good. I'm gonna cut one open from of the new mazo and see what the inside of those looks like.
Second Mazo. Same thing. I'm not sure exactly what to call it. Medium filler maybe. But it sure ain't long filler. I'm not returning these. I'll just acknowledge what they are and be more skeptical of other sticks from now on.
Yup that does look like scraps. Though I've never taken a cigar apart before so I really wouldn't know exactly how the inside should look but that's not the way I imagine it should look.
Catfish, I read your last post too quickly and thought you meant Alex. Somebody before you metioned asking Alex about it. I kinda new and I know who Alex is but I'm not familiar with George. What's his Last name?
George Rico...the man behind Gran Habanos...you should try a Zulu, really good!!
I called ccom and they were most helpful and are sending a replacement mazo and a return label for the ones I have. The customer service rep said that he was certain that they were supposed to be long filler. My friend and I carefully smoked two of them this past weekend and they were pretty damn good. I'm gonna cut one open from of the new mazo and see what the inside of those looks like.
Second Mazo. Same thing. I'm not sure exactly what to call it. Medium filler maybe. But it sure ain't long filler. I'm not returning these. I'll just acknowledge what they are and be more skeptical of other sticks from now on.
I was looking at the ccom magazine that came in and they are listed a long filler.
I've smoked a lot of these and am concerned enough by looking at the photos...the amount of dust and the amount of short fillers really makes me rethink buying more until I read what you fellas are getting from George himself. I like his product but something like this really needs to be addressed...long filler means that you get more long filler and that cigar appears to be ALL short filler.
after reading the description here at ccom, i only read that they use "long leaves", thats not saying they use long filler, i actuaally dont see anything about the filler type being short or long, sort of a vague description, and easily confused
after reading the description here at ccom, i only read that they use "long leaves", thats not saying they use long filler, i actuaally dont see anything about the filler type being short or long, sort of a vague description, and easily confused
Hmm very interesting point. Hope they aren't using word trickery. I've got 3 in the humi now. I may try one soon and if its got a bad draw or burns funny I may cut it open to have a looksie.
Long...... Short....... in between..... I dont know, but I have had 5 or 6 of these and I like them. They burned great and I like the taste........ why does it matter? For the price they are hard to beat.
Long...... Short....... in between..... I dont know, but I have had 5 or 6 of these and I like them. They burned great and I like the taste........ why does it matter? For the price they are hard to beat.
+1, I've gone thru a mazo of both the churchill and robusto and havent had any problems, the flavor is good the burn is decent and they are priced right.
Long...... Short....... in between..... I dont know, but I have had 5 or 6 of these and I like them. They burned great and I like the taste........ why does it matter? For the price they are hard to beat.
agreed, but for a few thats the topic on this, is it short or long? some like long and short fillers others only long, some associate short with cheap machine made, others dont, but the play on the wording in the desciption makes you wonder what else is misread or misrepresented
Long...... Short....... in between..... I dont know, but I have had 5 or 6 of these and I like them. They burned great and I like the taste........ why does it matter? For the price they are hard to beat.
agreed, but for a few thats the topic on this, is it short or long? some like long and short fillers others only long, some associate short with cheap machine made, others dont, but the play on the wording in the desciption makes you wonder what else is misread or misrepresented
If we want to be technical we can dissect what exactly long filler vs short filler is. Long filler has been established as the premium type of tobacco that handmades are made from....we expect as consumers that long filler ( aka tripa in spanish ) be the dominant type of tobacco in our cigars while picadura, or chop, is what is called short filler that is found in machine made cigars. This is where the disconnect comes when we see a Brand Cigar that tends to try and convey the message that it is a premium handmade cigar and then it's found having mostly short filler tobacco in it. The one problem with short fillers is that it is scrap material which tends to burn quicker and that is where quality suffers. Some cigars known as Cuban sandwiches tend to mix long and short fillers and again it's all about quality. The photos of the 2002 GHC tend to bother me and I don't normally do autopsies on my cigars as I'd rather smoke them but that is just wayyyyy too much short filler IMO...and I like the GHCV 2002...what a conundrum!
Long...... Short....... in between..... I dont know, but I have had 5 or 6 of these and I like them. They burned great and I like the taste........ why does it matter? For the price they are hard to beat.
agreed, but for a few thats the topic on this, is it short or long? some like long and short fillers others only long, some associate short with cheap machine made, others dont, but the play on the wording in the desciption makes you wonder what else is misread or misrepresented
If we want to be technical we can dissect what exactly long filler vs short filler is. Long filler has been established as the premium type of tobacco that handmades are made from....we expect as consumers that long filler ( aka tripa in spanish ) be the dominant type of tobacco in our cigars while picadura, or chop, is what is called short filler that is found in machine made cigars. This is where the disconnect comes when we see a Brand Cigar that tends to try and convey the message that it is a premium handmade cigar and then it's found having mostly short filler tobacco in it. The one problem with short fillers is that it is scrap material which tends to burn quicker and that is where quality suffers. Some cigars known as Cuban sandwiches tend to mix long and short fillers and again it's all about quality. The photos of the 2002 GHC tend to bother me and I don't normally do autopsies on my cigars as I'd rather smoke them but that is just wayyyyy too much short filler IMO...and I like the GHCV 2002...what a conundrum!
Exactly. I've always liked them to and have never had any problems with them. I've had many short and mixed filler smokes that I've liked also. I just like truth in advertising.
Is this supposed to be short filler? Sure looks like short filler.
UPDATED on page 3
Gran Habano Vintage 2002 is indeed LONG FILLER. Remember, these long leaves are bunched in hand, then the tips of the long leaves are broken by the buncher and added to the rest of the cigar. The tips of the leaves offer the most flavor, so they are broken off after the cigar is bunched and placed throughout the cigar - this helps create change in flavor as the blend burns.
All long filler cigars will also contain some smaller pieces of tobaccos due to the tips being broken off as I explained above and simply due to handling.
That said. Here are images of our test. We cut open a La Vieja Habana Corojo by Drew Estate. This is one of the most popular SHORT FILLER cigars in the industry. We then cut open a Gran Habano Vintage 2002.
This is La Vieja Habana Corojo by Drew Estate (SHORT FILLER)
This is Gran Habano Vintage 2002 (LONG FILLER)
Here's an image of Gran Habano Vintage 2002 (LEFT) versus La Vieja Habano Corojo by Drew Estate (RIGHT)
Actually...it doesn't end the debate as much as it 'distorts' the debate. Had it not been for some very long conversations with growers, manufacturers I'd probably just let this one go. I actually talked with a good friend of mine who has his own boutique brand and educates me all the time about tobacco and how cigars are made.
"LONG FILLER
Whole tobacco leaves selected and rolled by hand to create an ideal DRAW of smoke. The leaves are positioned to run the length of the cigar, thereby creating channels through which the smoke can flow. Long filler will usually hold an ash longer than short filler." This is something he sent to me that actually makes sense when a torcedor rolls a cigar...this is in their training.
"SHORT FILLER
Chopped scraps of leaves sometimes used in hand made, but more likely in machine-made, cigars. Short filler tobacco burns hotter and quicker than LONG FILLER, but can otherwise be quite good, depending on the quality of the tobacco."
I'm quite sure that the GHCV is no doubt putting quality tobacco into their cigars because you can taste it but that chopped up bunch of tobacco is not how cigars are properly rolled with long filler tobacco. The idea as was said above is that the leaves are to be positioned in such a way that it creates a channel for which the smoke flows through the cigar. From what my friend told me....you can't call a Chevrolet Impala a Corvette just because both are Chevrolets....they are both made differently with better parts. He told me that yes...the GH is a good cigar but they are claiming something that isn't accurate..if anything there is a sharing of long and short fillers and as long as there is some long filler in the cigar you can claim that you use long filler but the proof is in the pudding...there's more short filler than anything.
I wanted to test this on a premium cigar and as much as it hurt me to dissect a very good cigar ( it was actually the brand of my friends ) and I cut it lightly down the middle and the vitola was Robusto. I was very delighted to see long filler from stem to stern with very few pieces of anything resembling short filler tobacco. It was just one leaf after another of quality tobacco...that made me a true believer.
Yes...their are brands of those who will use different ratios of long and short but one doesn't have to be an expert to see what leafs look like vs leaves that are chopped and in lots of pieces.
I am in no way looking for a debate or something that goes along the way saying I know everything...I don't but I do trust those who do this for a living. JMHO here.
Actually...it doesn't end the debate as much as it 'distorts' the debate. Had it not been for some very long conversations with growers, manufacturers I'd probably just let this one go. I actually talked with a good friend of mine who has his own boutique brand and educates me all the time about tobacco and how cigars are made.
"LONG FILLER
Whole tobacco leaves selected and rolled by hand to create an ideal DRAW of smoke. The leaves are positioned to run the length of the cigar, thereby creating channels through which the smoke can flow. Long filler will usually hold an ash longer than short filler." This is something he sent to me that actually makes sense when a torcedor rolls a cigar...this is in their training.
"SHORT FILLER
Chopped scraps of leaves sometimes used in hand made, but more likely in machine-made, cigars. Short filler tobacco burns hotter and quicker than LONG FILLER, but can otherwise be quite good, depending on the quality of the tobacco."
I'm quite sure that the GHCV is no doubt putting quality tobacco into their cigars because you can taste it but that chopped up bunch of tobacco is not how cigars are properly rolled with long filler tobacco. The idea as was said above is that the leaves are to be positioned in such a way that it creates a channel for which the smoke flows through the cigar. From what my friend told me....you can't call a Chevrolet Impala a Corvette just because both are Chevrolets....they are both made differently with better parts. He told me that yes...the GH is a good cigar but they are claiming something that isn't accurate..if anything there is a sharing of long and short fillers and as long as there is some long filler in the cigar you can claim that you use long filler but the proof is in the pudding...there's more short filler than anything.
I wanted to test this on a premium cigar and as much as it hurt me to dissect a very good cigar ( it was actually the brand of my friends ) and I cut it lightly down the middle and the vitola was Robusto. I was very delighted to see long filler from stem to stern with very few pieces of anything resembling short filler tobacco. It was just one leaf after another of quality tobacco...that made me a true believer.
Yes...their are brands of those who will use different ratios of long and short but one doesn't have to be an expert to see what leafs look like vs leaves that are chopped and in lots of pieces.
I am in no way looking for a debate or something that goes along the way saying I know everything...I don't but I do trust those who do this for a living. JMHO here.
Very interesting reading. I suppose that what we have now is a mixed filler. I wonder if this came about with this cigar over time. The first year of release I must have bought 10 mazos. They were great, and usually held an ash up to 2 inches. Heck, I'd have to break it off then! By last year I noticed the ash falling off at about 3/4 inch, the wrapper was lighter in color, the depth of the taste was missing, I haven't bought any in a while, hmm, at least a year. I enjoyed it while it lasted, though. Wish I'd put away some of those originals, but then I'd just smoke them. I can't help it. It's what I do.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Actually...it doesn't end the debate as much as it 'distorts' the debate. Had it not been for some very long conversations with growers, manufacturers I'd probably just let this one go. I actually talked with a good friend of mine who has his own boutique brand and educates me all the time about tobacco and how cigars are made.
"LONG FILLER
Whole tobacco leaves selected and rolled by hand to create an ideal DRAW of smoke. The leaves are positioned to run the length of the cigar, thereby creating channels through which the smoke can flow. Long filler will usually hold an ash longer than short filler." This is something he sent to me that actually makes sense when a torcedor rolls a cigar...this is in their training.
"SHORT FILLER
Chopped scraps of leaves sometimes used in hand made, but more likely in machine-made, cigars. Short filler tobacco burns hotter and quicker than LONG FILLER, but can otherwise be quite good, depending on the quality of the tobacco."
I'm quite sure that the GHCV is no doubt putting quality tobacco into their cigars because you can taste it but that chopped up bunch of tobacco is not how cigars are properly rolled with long filler tobacco. The idea as was said above is that the leaves are to be positioned in such a way that it creates a channel for which the smoke flows through the cigar. From what my friend told me....you can't call a Chevrolet Impala a Corvette just because both are Chevrolets....they are both made differently with better parts. He told me that yes...the GH is a good cigar but they are claiming something that isn't accurate..if anything there is a sharing of long and short fillers and as long as there is some long filler in the cigar you can claim that you use long filler but the proof is in the pudding...there's more short filler than anything.
I wanted to test this on a premium cigar and as much as it hurt me to dissect a very good cigar ( it was actually the brand of my friends ) and I cut it lightly down the middle and the vitola was Robusto. I was very delighted to see long filler from stem to stern with very few pieces of anything resembling short filler tobacco. It was just one leaf after another of quality tobacco...that made me a true believer.
Yes...their are brands of those who will use different ratios of long and short but one doesn't have to be an expert to see what leafs look like vs leaves that are chopped and in lots of pieces.
I am in no way looking for a debate or something that goes along the way saying I know everything...I don't but I do trust those who do this for a living. JMHO here.
Very interesting reading. I suppose that what we have now is a mixed filler. I wonder if this came about with this cigar over time. The first year of release I must have bought 10 mazos. They were great, and usually held an ash up to 2 inches. Heck, I'd have to break it off then! By last year I noticed the ash falling off at about 3/4 inch, the wrapper was lighter in color, the depth of the taste was missing, I haven't bought any in a while, hmm, at least a year. I enjoyed it while it lasted, though. Wish I'd put away some of those originals, but then I'd just smoke them. I can't help it. It's what I do.
Now that you mention it I did notice that the color of the wrapper was much lighter. They used to be very dark almost black in color.
Short filler is not the deathknell for cigars...as is said it can come from quality tobacco which the GH 2002 obviously uses...we can taste it so therefore we've already answered that. What we can learn from the ash is really interesting and helps us with our own questions.....if the ash falls off quickly then you pretty much know that it's got short filler and as far as the wrapper is concerned I'd tend to worry a little bit if the wrapper was exactly the same year after year as far as color. You're going to see shading of wrappers that vary...not a whole lot but enough to the discerning eye that you're going to see a variance. I remember the big debates over some of the maduros that were being "dyed"...as it turns out it wasn't true but the debate sure was a messy one.
Short filler is not the deathknell for cigars...as is said it can come from quality tobacco which the GH 2002 obviously uses...we can taste it so therefore we've already answered that. What we can learn from the ash is really interesting and helps us with our own questions.....if the ash falls off quickly then you pretty much know that it's got short filler and as far as the wrapper is concerned I'd tend to worry a little bit if the wrapper was exactly the same year after year as far as color. You're going to see shading of wrappers that vary...not a whole lot but enough to the discerning eye that you're going to see a variance. I remember the big debates over some of the maduros that were being "dyed"...as it turns out it wasn't true but the debate sure was a messy one.
True. I remember when I got some for the first time. I thought they looked too dark and shiny. I assumed it was "painted"
I've watched these guys at the local factory rolling cigars and one of the things I've noticed is that when they are rolling a robusto, or another shorter cigar, the leaves are a lot longer than the finished stick. They will just rip some of the leaf off of the bunch and place it along side of the rest. Then all of that gets rolled in the binder. As to the GH 2000 vintage sticks, I've noticed a wide variety of color. And I've also noted that the darker the wrapper, the more problems you will have. (I used to smoke a bunch of these). If that is the case, I would suggest dry boxing them for a few days before smoking While we're on maduros, Alex wrote a piece in the forum a few years back about the process. He said that after the 2nd fermentation the leaves are often very spotty, ugly, and uneven in color. They use a water based solution and soak the leaves to spread the colors more evenly, but that dyes are not used. He did mention that it wasn't pretty. So I would imagine that different batches are inevitable.
Comments
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Thanks for keeping us posted on these and I'm glad your subsequent sticks were better than that first one. Hopefully it was just a freak occurence, like maybe it was 4:55 pm on a Friday and the torcedor had to squeeze in one last stick for his daily quota or something!
Second Mazo. Same thing. I'm not sure exactly what to call it. Medium filler maybe. But it sure ain't long filler. I'm not returning these. I'll just acknowledge what they are and be more skeptical of other sticks from now on.
Gran Habano Vintage 2002 is indeed LONG FILLER. Remember, these long leaves are bunched in hand, then the tips of the long leaves are broken by the buncher and added to the rest of the cigar. The tips of the leaves offer the most flavor, so they are broken off after the cigar is bunched and placed throughout the cigar - this helps create change in flavor as the blend burns.
All long filler cigars will also contain some smaller pieces of tobaccos due to the tips being broken off as I explained above and simply due to handling.
That said. Here are images of our test. We cut open a La Vieja Habana Corojo by Drew Estate. This is one of the most popular SHORT FILLER cigars in the industry. We then cut open a Gran Habano Vintage 2002.
This is La Vieja Habana Corojo by Drew Estate (SHORT FILLER)
This is Gran Habano Vintage 2002 (LONG FILLER)
Here's an image of Gran Habano Vintage 2002 (LEFT) versus La Vieja Habano Corojo by Drew Estate (RIGHT)
Hope this helps put this debate to rest!
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
As to the GH 2000 vintage sticks, I've noticed a wide variety of color. And I've also noted that the darker the wrapper, the more problems you will have. (I used to smoke a bunch of these). If that is the case, I would suggest dry boxing them for a few days before smoking
While we're on maduros, Alex wrote a piece in the forum a few years back about the process. He said that after the 2nd fermentation the leaves are often very spotty, ugly, and uneven in color. They use a water based solution and soak the leaves to spread the colors more evenly, but that dyes are not used. He did mention that it wasn't pretty. So I would imagine that different batches are inevitable.