As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
. I was just harping on Vulch's "LAW" response as if he was all of a sudden serious about his respect for all of the existing laws.
GOP got their shutdown finally. The spin machine begins!
The spin machine began when you said "their".
agreed.
if only obama hadnt said that he Wont compromise... I mean, IF obama would have compromised in any way shape or form then the GOP would not have "got their shutdown"
figured all of this would go this way here. I guess the gop does no wrong. umm, they were given a chance months ago to pass a clean bill for money that was already spent from this congress. why would obama deal with these people? they want to defund a law and keep people from getting healthcare and say that if they don't get that they will not fund the govt? yeah obama is the horrible dictator.
i didnt say the GOP could do no wrong. we all know that isnt true. im just saying there is enough blame to go around. stop acting like there isnt.
and a WAY late edit.... the republicans didnt say that if they dont defund the healthcare act they will defund the government.
they said they will fund the government but dont want to fund the healthcare act.
in fact they have attempted already to fund pieces of the government to get those people back to work, re-open closed areas and generally "re-open" the government and then debate on what to fund with in the healthcare act. the democrats have said that this is not good. its all of obamacare or government shutdown.
again... not saying that the republicans are doing everything right here but i am saying that it takes two to tango.
As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
. I was just harping on Vulch's "LAW" response as if he was all of a sudden serious about his respect for all of the existing laws.
Point taken. We all get a little dramatic sometimes.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
It is ironic how exactly these two incidents coincide. On the one hand, the federal government has run out of authority to borrow more than the absolutely titanic sums of money it has already borrowed. On the other hand, we roll out a massive new spending scheme conceived in secret and passed over public opposition in haste and in ignorance of its contents on the insistence of people who have repeatedly demonstrated their numbers are lies. On the very same day. The pretended danger is that until this pause in borrowing is resolved we will not be able to borrow money to pay interest on the money we have borrowed to bail out the same swindlers who hold our bonds. The sad certainty is that within a few days we will one way or another resume borrowing so we can hand these swindlers more bonds. Imagine being refused a payday loan on the same afternoon you kite a check for a down payment on an Escalade so you can drive the Escalade to another payday loan place across town. Nor is there the least shade of a notion of a ghost of a shaky theory how any of this incomprehensible sum is ever to be repaid.
Here's my question for the left wing kooks in charge of government today: Does wishful thinking overcome arithmetic? Are good intentions more important than good management?
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
. I was just harping on Vulch's "LAW" response as if he was all of a sudden serious about his respect for all of the existing laws.
Respect for all laws? No. Having the legal choice to abide by them or not? Thats another story. Just as I hate Citizens United, I have to deal with it. Cant pick and choose which ones you want to abide and which ones you dont, at least not at this point of the game.
Additionally, wasnt this just Mitt's health care plan that was passed anyway? And do you also believe yourre not already paying for the uninsured in your premiums and associated costs?
As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
. I was just harping on Vulch's "LAW" response as if he was all of a sudden serious about his respect for all of the existing laws.
Respect for all laws? No. Having the legal choice to abide by them or not? Thats another story. Just as I hate Citizens United, I have to deal with it. Cant pick and choose which ones you want to abide and which ones you dont, at least not at this point of the game.
OBAMA BELIEVES HE CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH LAWS HE WANTS TO ABIDE BY AND YOU ARE OK WITH THAT?
As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
The Liberals and the Race card !!! Well played ! Liberals dont give a rats ass about race. They want people ignorant of their polices. So they "Entitle" them with Welfare, Food Stamps, Healthcare etc.. so that they become dependent on the Government . Why would they ever want to better themselves if their fed 3 squares a day and dont pay or work for a damned thing they get. I understand some people need help because of extraneous circumstances but 98% are free loaders.
The immigration laws they pass are the same. These people hear that they will be "grandfathered" or given a free pass to become citizens and given food stamps ect.., Just vote for the Liberals and everything will be free to you because we need the votes !
If you cant see beyond what your being fed by the media then your one of those people because All Media with exception to a few are all liberal media doing the liberals bidding. The far right are idiots as is the far left. The only thing we should be **** about is WHY IS IT SO HARD TO THROW THESE F*&^& out of office if they intentionally harm the country ! Now the Dems will not negotiate at all !! Throw them OUT NOW ! And if REps cant find a more reasonable stance then THROW THEM OUT NOW ! They have the nation more divided now than anytime in my lifetime. NONE ARE INNOCENT !
Family, Friends, Golf, Cigars, Fine Whiskey, Good beer.... is there anything else ? Follow on instagram @crguy1961
As pelir said.......this is all over a LAW. One that was passed and given a thumbs up by Supreme Court------whats the issue again.
Hello? Anybody there? Dave, this administration and most of the Dems would just as soon make the entire bill of rights illegal. These are laws also. 2nd amendment is established law. I can carry any frickin gun I want anywhere I want to. Immigration? Illegal alines all over our country and our administration won't prosecute? They break the law on a daily basis. I don't her you objecting with capital letters. And you better pray real hard that he they don't tick the American people off enough that we end up with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency. Then it won't be a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's not forget the Republicans attitudes toward the 4th and 5th amendments, ie: their historical positions on search and seizure, mandatory drug tests, supporting corporate "rights" to control their employees activities during their off hours, whether it affects their job performance or not. Then, roll back to the '60s for a sec, GHW Bush's stance on integration of the schools, Ted Cruz's hero, Jesse Helms and his unapolegetic position on continuing the racist policies of the previous hundred years or so.
Not defending the Democrats, because a lot of what you've said is true, but the Republicans are damn sure not any better when it comes to upholding the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
The Liberals and the Race card !!! Well played ! Liberals dont give a rats ass about race. They want people ignorant of their polices. So they "Entitle" them with Welfare, Food Stamps, Healthcare etc.. so that they become dependent on the Government . Why would they ever want to better themselves if their fed 3 squares a day and dont pay or work for a damned thing they get. I understand some people need help because of extraneous circumstances but 98% are free loaders.
The immigration laws they pass are the same. These people hear that they will be "grandfathered" or given a free pass to become citizens and given food stamps ect.., Just vote for the Liberals and everything will be free to you because we need the votes !
If you cant see beyond what your being fed by the media then your one of those people because All Media with exception to a few are all liberal media doing the liberals bidding. The far right are idiots as is the far left. The only thing we should be **** about is WHY IS IT SO HARD TO THROW THESE F*&^& out of office if they intentionally harm the country ! Now the Dems will not negotiate at all !! Throw them OUT NOW ! And if REps cant find a more reasonable stance then THROW THEM OUT NOW ! They have the nation more divided now than anytime in my lifetime. NONE ARE INNOCENT !
Regarding your "Race Card", no, just the facts, not a "card" at all, just easy pickin's.
Regarding "seeing beyond" etc., you'll notice by reading my posts over the past several years that you're just now, finally, beginning to understand what I've been saying all along.
Regarding being a "Liberal", that's interesting. I am, as were our founding fathers, a "Liberal". As I've said dozens of times, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, et al, are not liberals, they're socialists. I'm not a socialist, but I do have enough sense to know that an element of socialism is necessary for a stable society. Note the root is the same.
Raisindot recently referred to me as "a reasonable member of the CCOM Conservative Caucus", You are referring to me as a "Liberal" and then lumping me in with the socialists and seemingly attributing to me many many ideas that I never put forward.
I must be doing something right.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
A little off topic, but if anyone has not seen it, look up milton friedman's explanation of "liberal"and how the word has changed. It's an interesting evolution and clarifies the meaning. I think theres a section on it in "capitalism and freedom"
i have to say i always enjoy reading your political posts. thats all.
Thanks. I almost didn't respond to Curtpick, but, I couldn't help but notice that he completely ignored my references to the GOP's more recent positions, which the Dem's also align with all too often, regarding their willilngness to take away individual freedoms and disregard the Constitution, and jumped right to "Race Card". This is what the Conservative Media has taught it's followers. It struck me as funny. Consider that until after the assassination of JFK, the Democrats were the party of racism. As LBJ so correctly pointed out, Democrats embracing Civil Rights would cost them the South for at least a generation. See your Red State / Blue State maps for verification.
I know that by todays definitions the closest description of my own political position is not "Liberal", but rather "Classical Liberal". As to the "Liberality" of the Founding Fathers, well, Liberty, Equality, Justice for all are the cornerstones of "Liberalism", as it was then, and still is for me. After all, Benjamin Franklin was the first postmaster, and Thomas Paine opined that perhaps the fledgling republic might one day be able to provide public education, and health care.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
the "problem" (for lack of better words) is figuring out how to implement any form of public health system on any level without violating rights and where the individual gets to decide what they want.
not a group of people, not a governing body, not a vote, a flow chart, a series of standards.
with many of the public social systems in place like the post office there is still a private option and individual buy in. this may explain why the post office is not viewed in the same light as government health care. ... and lets face it, if a letter gets to your house in a day or two days or even a week is significantly less of an issue than if you are able to get medicine to survive.
im fairly sure i lean a bit more conservative than you do on some issues but i also refer to myself as a "classical liberal" or a "libertarian" depending on what day you catch me.
i often find myself being accused of being very conservative when in a group of modern liberals and very liberal in a group of modern conservatives.
Just as I hate Citizens United, I have to deal with it. Cant pick and choose which ones you want to abide and which ones you dont, at least not at this point of the game.
this is from somewhere else but i thought it applied here:
"I actually don't understand the reasoning "its the law" therefore it shouldn't be blocked. Yes, the congress made it law. The same congress who can unmake it or fight it.
It's absurd to think that if something is passed that it cannot be wrong or undone. By that logic we should keep slavery around since it was "the law.""
While the idea is the same Kuzi I grant you, to compare the two seems a little ridiculous. Even the idea of violating rights of the indivual is a tough one. While yes, forcing insurance does seem to violate this----if that person is in a car accident the will be treated medically------who pays for this now?
the "problem" (for lack of better words) is figuring out how to implement any form of public health system on any level without violating rights and where the individual gets to decide what they want.
not a group of people, not a governing body, not a vote, a flow chart, a series of standards.
with many of the public social systems in place like the post office there is still a private option and individual buy in. this may explain why the post office is not viewed in the same light as government health care. ... and lets face it, if a letter gets to your house in a day or two days or even a week is significantly less of an issue than if you are able to get medicine to survive.
im fairly sure i lean a bit more conservative than you do on some issues but i also refer to myself as a "classical liberal" or a "libertarian" depending on what day you catch me.
i often find myself being accused of being very conservative when in a group of modern liberals and very liberal in a group of modern conservatives.
Good point, I've never been comfortable with the "Individual Mandate". I didn't like it when they did it to auto insurance, and I'm not happy with this new iteration either. Individual responsibility I can deal with.
The thing is, there is a problem. Americans are paying between 10 - 100 times the amount of money as people from other countries for medicines that were made in America! We pay dozens of times the reasonable cost of health care, and the excuse we're given is: "to make up for the cost of those who don't pay". So, instead of us collectively working to pay for those who don't, or can't pay, the industry waits until you are sick and or injured and then jacks up your bill at a time when you're least able to work off the costs. Most American families are one catastophic illness or injury away from being literally on-the-street-bankrupt. This is a problem!
I was for National Health Care when Clinton was president, we were in the black. After we squandered our cash and goodwill capital on the Iraq adventure, and continued to foolishly pour our resources into the Black Hole "graveyard of Empires" Afghanistan, I'm not truly feeling that it's the right time.
Doing nothing is not acceptable, but then, neither is doing the wrong thing, which is probably where we are. With that said, the iron is in the forge, and it's time for both sides to start figuring out a way to problem solve. Unfortunately, both of the major parties are in a habit of voting for extremes, and the Press makes its money by fanning the flames far more often than by holding to the truths. And extremists are immune to reason, logic, mathematics.
Good grief! I may start smoking early today.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The thing is, there is a problem. Americans are paying between 10 - 100 times the amount of money as people from other countries for medicines that were made in America! We pay dozens of times the reasonable cost of health care, and the excuse we're given is: "to make up for the cost of those who don't pay". So, instead of us collectively working to pay for those who don't, or can't pay, the industry waits until you are sick and or injured and then jacks up your bill at a time when you're least able to work off the costs. Most American families are one catastophic illness or injury away from being literally on-the-street-bankrupt. This is a problem!
I was for National Health Care when Clinton was president, we were in the black. After we squandered our cash and goodwill capital on the Iraq adventure, and continued to foolishly pour our resources into the Black Hole "graveyard of Empires" Afghanistan, I'm not truly feeling that it's the right time.
Doing nothing is not acceptable, but then, neither is doing the wrong thing, which is probably where we are. With that said, the iron is in the forge, and it's time for both sides to start figuring out a way to problem solve. Unfortunately, both of the major parties are in a habit of voting for extremes, and the Press makes its money by fanning the flames far more often than by holding to the truths. And extremists are immune to reason, logic, mathematics.
Good grief! I may start smoking early today.
1) Nothing in Obamacare reduces medical costs. All it does is make insurance mandatory.
2) Bankruptcy is not a problem; it is a solution. Bearswatter and I have been through medical bankruptcy, and it was a blessing. Everything went away except taxes. You want to make medical bankruptcy a less onerous experience? Dismiss taxes. Everyone else got stiffed except those bloodthirsty vultures. Took us years to pay off taxes from cashed out accounts.
3) Considering that #1 is no solution and #2 is no problem, then, clearly, there is no truth in your third proposition that we "have to do something", much less the wrong thing.
Cost is the only problem. You don't solve costs my making cost mandatory, in an enhanced form which no one has ever been able to afford, and then rolling in bureaucracy, at a time when clearly we're broke.
I think you and I could gather in a tavern and come up with two dozen practical and achievable ways to reduce cost before the first pitcher of beer was dry. None of those two dozen would sound like: "Hey, I know: Let's call in the very people who are the problem. You know, the ones giving us all this campaign money? We'll have them write the legislation!"
Give me something to make health care affordable. Don't give me the same old plus worse and then force me to buy it.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
While the idea is the same Kuzi I grant you, to compare the two seems a little ridiculous. Even the idea of violating rights of the indivual is a tough one. While yes, forcing insurance does seem to violate this----if that person is in a car accident the will be treated medically------who pays for this now?
im not saying others arent paying for it now. im just saying that institutionalizing it may not be the only solution. there may be other ways around this and nobody seems to want to listen to other options.
Well, I just got good news that my job will be able to continue "business as usual" into next week and maybe beyond. No definite word on when our funding would be totally cut, but I really hope it doesn't get to that point. I guess the state of Tennessee has their act together even if Washington D.C. doesn't.
Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
The thing is, there is a problem. Americans are paying between 10 - 100 times the amount of money as people from other countries for medicines that were made in America! We pay dozens of times the reasonable cost of health care, and the excuse we're given is: "to make up for the cost of those who don't pay". So, instead of us collectively working to pay for those who don't, or can't pay, the industry waits until you are sick and or injured and then jacks up your bill at a time when you're least able to work off the costs. Most American families are one catastophic illness or injury away from being literally on-the-street-bankrupt. This is a problem!
I was for National Health Care when Clinton was president, we were in the black. After we squandered our cash and goodwill capital on the Iraq adventure, and continued to foolishly pour our resources into the Black Hole "graveyard of Empires" Afghanistan, I'm not truly feeling that it's the right time.
Doing nothing is not acceptable, but then, neither is doing the wrong thing, which is probably where we are. With that said, the iron is in the forge, and it's time for both sides to start figuring out a way to problem solve. Unfortunately, both of the major parties are in a habit of voting for extremes, and the Press makes its money by fanning the flames far more often than by holding to the truths. And extremists are immune to reason, logic, mathematics.
Good grief! I may start smoking early today.
1) Nothing in Obamacare reduces medical costs. All it does is make insurance mandatory.
2) Bankruptcy is not a problem; it is a solution. Bearswatter and I have been through medical bankruptcy, and it was a blessing. Everything went away except taxes. You want to make medical bankruptcy a less onerous experience? Dismiss taxes. Everyone else got stiffed except those bloodthirsty vultures. Took us years to pay off taxes from cashed out accounts.
3) Considering that #1 is no solution and #2 is no problem, then, clearly, there is no truth in your third proposition that we "have to do something", much less the wrong thing.
Cost is the only problem. You don't solve costs my making cost mandatory, in an enhanced form which no one has ever been able to afford, and then rolling in bureaucracy, at a time when clearly we're broke.
I think you and I could gather in a tavern and come up with two dozen practical and achievable ways to reduce cost before the first pitcher of beer was dry. None of those two dozen would sound like: "Hey, I know: Let's call in the very people who are the problem. You know, the ones giving us all this campaign money? We'll have them write the legislation!"
Give me something to make health care affordable. Don't give me the same old plus worse and then force me to buy it.
You say there's no truth in my proposition that we need to do something, then you echo my call to do something. I know lots of ways to make health care more affordable, and I agree with you that nothing that's being proposed by Congress or the Oval Office is addressing that problem.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I give you that. It's just that I've had one long heated knock down drag out argument after another with the brain dead liberal democrat in the office beside me for the last five years. Every argument he has to admit there's nothing about Ocare to make health care more affordable. Every argument ends with him whining "... but we have to do some thing!" Tired of hearing it. Have to do something is zero excuse for compounding the problem.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
I give you that. It's just that I've had one long heated knock down drag out argument after another with the brain dead liberal democrat in the office beside me for the last five years. Every argument he has to admit there's nothing about Ocare to make health care more affordable. Every argument ends with him whining "... but we have to do some thing!" Tired of hearing it. Have to do something is zero excuse for compounding the problem.
I give you that. It's just that I've had one long heated knock down drag out argument after another with the brain dead liberal democrat in the office beside me for the last five years. Every argument he has to admit there's nothing about Ocare to make health care more affordable. Every argument ends with him whining "... but we have to do some thing!" Tired of hearing it. Have to do something is zero excuse for compounding the problem.
in a false choice argument there are two options that are given. option "A" is usually given as a seemingly good argument for a series of actions. Option B is usually some over the top exaggerated horrible alternative. It is usually presented in the spirit of: "we MUST do "A" because if we dont we will HAVE to do "B" and then the apocalypses will occur and all of our lives will end in depressing misery"
of course there are many many many other options that are not listed that would be very reasonable.
and this is exactly what is happening with the argument for (and to a degree, against) the ACA. the line in the spirit of "we have to fund this law! if we dont millions will die under some bridge from a scrape on the knee because they dont have insurance!." The fact of the matter is that the solutions in the act are not the only solutions that could have taken place. ...but the argument of those in favor of it are made out to seem like they are the only options. so yeah... its the fallacy of the false choice.
a quick edit here... i have spent a good amount of my posts on this thread trying to open up conversation and keep it from turning into something it shouldnt be. Bigshizza pointed out the braindead liberal thing. hes right.
not only that, but so far this has been one of the least vitriolic debates we have had. names dont promote that.
First let me say I hope no one takes anything I said personally.
Its a debate and hopefully we are all adult enough to understand that.
Finally, for me, ....again It's funny, even though we are all different in our beliefs on how and why things are as they are, we all want the same goal. And that is to make this country the best it can be without doing harm to others. That I applaud you all for ! Carry on!
Family, Friends, Golf, Cigars, Fine Whiskey, Good beer.... is there anything else ? Follow on instagram @crguy1961
a quick edit here... i have spent a good amount of my posts on this thread trying to open up conversation and keep it from turning into something it shouldnt be. Bigshizza pointed out the braindead liberal thing. hes right.
not only that, but so far this has been one of the least vitriolic debates we have had. names dont promote that.
I was okay with the mention of the "brain dead liberal." He was only talking about one.
Heck, I've met many braindead liberals over the years.
I've also met many braindead conservatives over the years.
I've also met many, many, many, many braindead people whose political affiliations I have absolutely no idea of, but their common connection seems to be that they spend all day posting selfies on Facebook and Twitter and are unhealthily interested in the Kardashians...but thatsa whole 'nother topic.
It's all political theater --- both sides want, need, have to win.
They can't appear weak, caving to the evil political party on the other side of the aisle....or else they'll risk losing their job come election time.
Both sides have to win so they can be celebrated in the media as the victorious gladiator, emerging from a grueling battle, after slaying that awful beast (the other party) and putting an end to the beast's evil ideas as well.
It seems the politicians are so entrenched in their parties beliefs that they won't do the right thing if it goes against their party. The people in Washington have lost sight of why they're there ---- things like "civil debate" "compromise" & "putting the good of the nation before themselves" have all gone out the window.
Right-wing, left-wing, it doesn't matter --- they are acting like school children fighting on the playground .... it's childish and unacceptable.
It seems like all they're concerned about is "winning", making the other side look "bad", and getting reelected/getting more of their party elected as well.
Both sides want all the power, but instead of achieving it based on merits, hard work, and passing useful and positive legislation they've resorted to sabotage.
Their egos have grown too large and their heads are so far up their a$$es that they're no longer working for the "greater good."
What's best for this country and it's citizens doesn't even cross their minds, IMO.
If I pulled something like this at my job I would be fired on the spot --- these politicians need to be held accountable for their actions in the next election.
(Now --- if they could please get the budget passed so the USDA site is back up and working that would be fantastic!)
I give you that. It's just that I've had one long heated knock down drag out argument after another with the brain dead liberal democrat in the office beside me for the last five years. Every argument he has to admit there's nothing about Ocare to make health care more affordable. Every argument ends with him whining "... but we have to do some thing!" Tired of hearing it. Have to do something is zero excuse for compounding the problem.
Liberal=yes
Braindead=NO
You have not met the guy.
But stop and reflect a moment, those of you who would characterize yourselves as liberals, yet who object to rancor in political discourse: It's your fault. It is. Here is the bit which makes people irritable: The liberal democrat first sticks his hand in your pocket then tells you to calm down. Keep your hands to yourself I would not need to calm down.
Stop and think about it.
Nothing I suggest would begin with stealing from you nor end with telling you how to live. It's very easy to be calm and rational with me. I am not a thief and a bully.
What do you think it is makes our current political discourse so shrill? People feel robbed today, is what. Robbed of money, liberty, and the American dream, by the galloping triumph of fascism, all in the name of liberals doing them a favor. Of course they are going to yell. That's all they have left. Fox News didn't rile them up; you did. Talk radio blowhards didn't shake them up off the couch and brainwash them. You drove them up off the couch to blowhards, blogs, and rancor. If conservatism were in the stirrups to this extent, it would be you yelling and going to the fringe.
The arrogance of it. Rob me you're doing me a favor, but if I holler thief I'm being rude.
This measure we are debating too late here is a perfect example. A mountain of lies. An engine of robbery. A tool for limitless future petty tyrannies. Wicked in so many ways. We we must tamely swallow the whole of it unmended so that you can feel so much more compassionate and wise.
Why, for instance, does this scheme rely on a special tax on medical devices? Who the heck dreamed that up? Makes you imagine some bloodthirsty medieval Balkan potentate with an unpronounceable name levying a crutch tax on his cripples. It is unworthy of a civilized society to even contemplate such a measure. Yet when the opponents of Obamacare suggested removing this odious tax from the package that suggestion was rejected out of hand. No room for compromise. All or nothing go ahead and shutdown. That pitzes me off. Fleecing helpless people should pitz you off too.
Why, for instance, does this scheme prohibit government from negotiating better prices from big pharma? Isn't that the exact same exhorbitant feature of Bush's medicare drug plan which the very proponents of this scheme excoriated him for including? That pitzes me off. These cruel bastids overcharge outrageously as it is. It ought to pitz you off too.
End to end, from the poor to the privileged, this massive scheme is chock full of crap like that which pitzes me off. Yet you have been taxing me for it for years already, on the pretext that it will do me a favor which plainly it will not do. If I object, do not be surprised if I sound shrill. I speak plain from the heart. I don't hate you. You just flabbergast me. It's fusstrating.
Whew. Now I've got that off my chest, anyone who wants to try a Fratello cigar, PM me. My humidor is so full I have to sit on the lid.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
It's all political theater --- both sides want, need, have to win.
They can't appear weak, caving to the evil political party on the other side of the aisle....or else they'll risk losing their job come election time.
Both sides have to win so they can be celebrated in the media as the victorious gladiator, emerging from a grueling battle, after slaying that awful beast (the other party) and putting an end to the beast's evil ideas as well.
It seems the politicians are so entrenched in their parties beliefs that they won't do the right thing if it goes against their party. The people in Washington have lost sight of why they're there ---- things like "civil debate" "compromise" & "putting the good of the nation before themselves" have all gone out the window.
Right-wing, left-wing, it doesn't matter --- they are acting like school children fighting on the playground .... it's childish and unacceptable.
It seems like all they're concerned about is "winning", making the other side look "bad", and getting reelected/getting more of their party elected as well.
Both sides want all the power, but instead of achieving it based on merits, hard work, and passing useful and positive legislation they've resorted to sabotage.
Their egos have grown too large and their heads are so far up their a$$es that they're no longer working for the "greater good."
What's best for this country and it's citizens doesn't even cross their minds, IMO.
If I pulled something like this at my job I would be fired on the spot --- these politicians need to be held accountable for their actions in the next election.
(Now --- if they could please get the budget passed so the USDA site is back up and working that would be fantastic!)
Nailed it!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Comments
and a WAY late edit....
the republicans didnt say that if they dont defund the healthcare act they will defund the government.
they said they will fund the government but dont want to fund the healthcare act.
in fact they have attempted already to fund pieces of the government to get those people back to work, re-open closed areas and generally "re-open" the government and then debate on what to fund with in the healthcare act.
the democrats have said that this is not good. its all of obamacare or government shutdown.
again... not saying that the republicans are doing everything right here but i am saying that it takes two to tango.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Here's my question for the left wing kooks in charge of government today: Does wishful thinking overcome arithmetic? Are good intentions more important than good management?
The Liberals and the Race card !!! Well played ! Liberals dont give a rats ass about race. They want people ignorant of their polices. So they "Entitle" them with Welfare, Food Stamps, Healthcare etc.. so that they become dependent on the Government . Why would they ever want to better themselves if their fed 3 squares a day and dont pay or work for a damned thing they get. I understand some people need help because of extraneous circumstances but 98% are free loaders.
The immigration laws they pass are the same. These people hear that they will be "grandfathered" or given a free pass to become citizens and given food stamps ect.., Just vote for the Liberals and everything will be free to you because we need the votes !
If you cant see beyond what your being fed by the media then your one of those people because All Media with exception to a few are all liberal media doing the liberals bidding.
The far right are idiots as is the far left.
The only thing we should be **** about is WHY IS IT SO HARD TO THROW THESE F*&^& out of office if they intentionally harm the country ! Now the Dems will not negotiate at all !! Throw them OUT NOW ! And if REps cant find a more reasonable stance then THROW THEM OUT NOW ! They have the nation more divided now than anytime in my lifetime. NONE ARE INNOCENT !
Regarding "seeing beyond" etc., you'll notice by reading my posts over the past several years that you're just now, finally, beginning to understand what I've been saying all along.
Regarding being a "Liberal", that's interesting. I am, as were our founding fathers, a "Liberal". As I've said dozens of times, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, et al, are not liberals, they're socialists. I'm not a socialist, but I do have enough sense to know that an element of socialism is necessary for a stable society. Note the root is the same.
Raisindot recently referred to me as "a reasonable member of the CCOM Conservative Caucus", You are referring to me as a "Liberal" and then lumping me in with the socialists and seemingly attributing to me many many ideas that I never put forward.
I must be doing something right.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
thats all.
I know that by todays definitions the closest description of my own political position is not "Liberal", but rather "Classical Liberal". As to the "Liberality" of the Founding Fathers, well, Liberty, Equality, Justice for all are the cornerstones of "Liberalism", as it was then, and still is for me. After all, Benjamin Franklin was the first postmaster, and Thomas Paine opined that perhaps the fledgling republic might one day be able to provide public education, and health care.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
not a group of people, not a governing body, not a vote, a flow chart, a series of standards.
with many of the public social systems in place like the post office there is still a private option and individual buy in.
this may explain why the post office is not viewed in the same light as government health care.
... and lets face it, if a letter gets to your house in a day or two days or even a week is significantly less of an issue than if you are able to get medicine to survive.
im fairly sure i lean a bit more conservative than you do on some issues but i also refer to myself as a "classical liberal" or a "libertarian" depending on what day you catch me.
i often find myself being accused of being very conservative when in a group of modern liberals and very liberal in a group of modern conservatives.
"I actually don't understand the reasoning "its the law" therefore it shouldn't be blocked. Yes, the congress made it law. The same congress who can unmake it or fight it.
It's absurd to think that if something is passed that it cannot be wrong or undone. By that logic we should keep slavery around since it was "the law.""
interesting concept.
The thing is, there is a problem. Americans are paying between 10 - 100 times the amount of money as people from other countries for medicines that were made in America! We pay dozens of times the reasonable cost of health care, and the excuse we're given is: "to make up for the cost of those who don't pay". So, instead of us collectively working to pay for those who don't, or can't pay, the industry waits until you are sick and or injured and then jacks up your bill at a time when you're least able to work off the costs. Most American families are one catastophic illness or injury away from being literally on-the-street-bankrupt. This is a problem!
I was for National Health Care when Clinton was president, we were in the black. After we squandered our cash and goodwill capital on the Iraq adventure, and continued to foolishly pour our resources into the Black Hole "graveyard of Empires" Afghanistan, I'm not truly feeling that it's the right time.
Doing nothing is not acceptable, but then, neither is doing the wrong thing, which is probably where we are. With that said, the iron is in the forge, and it's time for both sides to start figuring out a way to problem solve. Unfortunately, both of the major parties are in a habit of voting for extremes, and the Press makes its money by fanning the flames far more often than by holding to the truths. And extremists are immune to reason, logic, mathematics.
Good grief! I may start smoking early today.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
2) Bankruptcy is not a problem; it is a solution. Bearswatter and I have been through medical bankruptcy, and it was a blessing. Everything went away except taxes. You want to make medical bankruptcy a less onerous experience? Dismiss taxes. Everyone else got stiffed except those bloodthirsty vultures. Took us years to pay off taxes from cashed out accounts.
3) Considering that #1 is no solution and #2 is no problem, then, clearly, there is no truth in your third proposition that we "have to do something", much less the wrong thing.
Cost is the only problem. You don't solve costs my making cost mandatory, in an enhanced form which no one has ever been able to afford, and then rolling in bureaucracy, at a time when clearly we're broke.
I think you and I could gather in a tavern and come up with two dozen practical and achievable ways to reduce cost before the first pitcher of beer was dry. None of those two dozen would sound like: "Hey, I know: Let's call in the very people who are the problem. You know, the ones giving us all this campaign money? We'll have them write the legislation!"
Give me something to make health care affordable. Don't give me the same old plus worse and then force me to buy it.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Braindead=NO
in a false choice argument there are two options that are given. option "A" is usually given as a seemingly good argument for a series of actions. Option B is usually some over the top exaggerated horrible alternative. It is usually presented in the spirit of: "we MUST do "A" because if we dont we will HAVE to do "B" and then the apocalypses will occur and all of our lives will end in depressing misery"
of course there are many many many other options that are not listed that would be very reasonable.
and this is exactly what is happening with the argument for (and to a degree, against) the ACA.
the line in the spirit of "we have to fund this law! if we dont millions will die under some bridge from a scrape on the knee because they dont have insurance!." The fact of the matter is that the solutions in the act are not the only solutions that could have taken place. ...but the argument of those in favor of it are made out to seem like they are the only options. so yeah... its the fallacy of the false choice.
a quick edit here...
i have spent a good amount of my posts on this thread trying to open up conversation and keep it from turning into something it shouldnt be. Bigshizza pointed out the braindead liberal thing. hes right.
not only that, but so far this has been one of the least vitriolic debates we have had. names dont promote that.
Its a debate and hopefully we are all adult enough to understand that.
Finally, for me, ....again
It's funny, even though we are all different in our beliefs on how and why things are as they are, we all want the same goal.
And that is to make this country the best it can be without doing harm to others.
That I applaud you all for !
Carry on!
I was okay with the mention of the "brain dead liberal." He was only talking about one.
Heck, I've met many braindead liberals over the years.
I've also met many braindead conservatives over the years.
I've also met many, many, many, many braindead people whose political affiliations I have absolutely no idea of, but their common connection seems to be that they spend all day posting selfies on Facebook and Twitter and are unhealthily interested in the Kardashians...but thatsa whole 'nother topic.
They can't appear weak, caving to the evil political party on the other side of the aisle....or else they'll risk losing their job come election time.
Both sides have to win so they can be celebrated in the media as the victorious gladiator, emerging from a grueling battle, after slaying that awful beast (the other party) and putting an end to the beast's evil ideas as well.
It seems the politicians are so entrenched in their parties beliefs that they won't do the right thing if it goes against their party. The people in Washington have lost sight of why they're there ---- things like "civil debate" "compromise" & "putting the good of the nation before themselves" have all gone out the window.
Right-wing, left-wing, it doesn't matter --- they are acting like school children fighting on the playground .... it's childish and unacceptable.
It seems like all they're concerned about is "winning", making the other side look "bad", and getting reelected/getting more of their party elected as well.
Both sides want all the power, but instead of achieving it based on merits, hard work, and passing useful and positive legislation they've resorted to sabotage.
Their egos have grown too large and their heads are so far up their a$$es that they're no longer working for the "greater good."
What's best for this country and it's citizens doesn't even cross their minds, IMO.
If I pulled something like this at my job I would be fired on the spot --- these politicians need to be held accountable for their actions in the next election.
(Now --- if they could please get the budget passed so the USDA site is back up and working that would be fantastic!)
* I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *
But stop and reflect a moment, those of you who would characterize yourselves as liberals, yet who object to rancor in political discourse: It's your fault. It is. Here is the bit which makes people irritable: The liberal democrat first sticks his hand in your pocket then tells you to calm down. Keep your hands to yourself I would not need to calm down.
Stop and think about it.
Nothing I suggest would begin with stealing from you nor end with telling you how to live. It's very easy to be calm and rational with me. I am not a thief and a bully.
What do you think it is makes our current political discourse so shrill? People feel robbed today, is what. Robbed of money, liberty, and the American dream, by the galloping triumph of fascism, all in the name of liberals doing them a favor. Of course they are going to yell. That's all they have left. Fox News didn't rile them up; you did. Talk radio blowhards didn't shake them up off the couch and brainwash them. You drove them up off the couch to blowhards, blogs, and rancor. If conservatism were in the stirrups to this extent, it would be you yelling and going to the fringe.
The arrogance of it. Rob me you're doing me a favor, but if I holler thief I'm being rude.
This measure we are debating too late here is a perfect example. A mountain of lies. An engine of robbery. A tool for limitless future petty tyrannies. Wicked in so many ways. We we must tamely swallow the whole of it unmended so that you can feel so much more compassionate and wise.
Why, for instance, does this scheme rely on a special tax on medical devices? Who the heck dreamed that up? Makes you imagine some bloodthirsty medieval Balkan potentate with an unpronounceable name levying a crutch tax on his cripples. It is unworthy of a civilized society to even contemplate such a measure. Yet when the opponents of Obamacare suggested removing this odious tax from the package that suggestion was rejected out of hand. No room for compromise. All or nothing go ahead and shutdown. That pitzes me off. Fleecing helpless people should pitz you off too.
Why, for instance, does this scheme prohibit government from negotiating better prices from big pharma? Isn't that the exact same exhorbitant feature of Bush's medicare drug plan which the very proponents of this scheme excoriated him for including? That pitzes me off. These cruel bastids overcharge outrageously as it is. It ought to pitz you off too.
End to end, from the poor to the privileged, this massive scheme is chock full of crap like that which pitzes me off. Yet you have been taxing me for it for years already, on the pretext that it will do me a favor which plainly it will not do. If I object, do not be surprised if I sound shrill. I speak plain from the heart. I don't hate you. You just flabbergast me. It's fusstrating.
Whew. Now I've got that off my chest, anyone who wants to try a Fratello cigar, PM me. My humidor is so full I have to sit on the lid.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain