Anyone own a SBR?

alienmisprint

So, I have been toying with the idea of building a short-barrel rifle for home defense (and plinking) purposes. I know that if I were to buy one, I have to pay the $200 tax stamp fee and do all the extra paperwork. If I build it, though, do I still have to pay the extra $200? I imagine that I would still have to register it as well, just wasn't sure on whether or not I would have to pay the extra fee.

madurofan

Anything that qualifies as a Class III weapon requires the tax stamp and unless I'm mistaken it is actually illegal to build a class III weapon yourself it has to be done by an authorized gunsmith. I'm not 100% sure that applies to SBRs but I know its true for any auto.

I'm not much of a rifle guy in fact the only one I own is a Mosin-Nagant but I wanna see some pics if you get one. Also what advantages are you thinking a SBR has over a shotgun in the house. I'm a big proponent of shotguns for home defense.

alienmisprint

It is legal to build a SBR, not sure on the automatic. I can definitely see the auto being a no-go, since you would need to modify your firing mechanism, and if you aren't a gunsmith, that could go wrong.

As far as benefits, no small part of it is my personal experience with the AR platform. I have been using them for 15+ years now, so I'm very comfortable with their operation and tactical use. But even my personal experience with them aside, I think they are just a better weapon for home defense.

I do have a Remington 870 Express Tactical with a Shurshot stock, and I love it. It was my primary home defense gun, but over the past year or so I have changed my mind on it. Initially I thought of it as me vs a bad guy. One shot that makes contact with the 870 will probably end that. More recently, I have been thinking of it in the worst-case-scenario mindset. If multiple invaders with any type of tactical training burst into your home, I think you are much better off with an AR or similar semi-automatic carbine. The main pros I see over the shotgun are:

Higher capacity: I totally understand that a 12 gauge slug packs a great deal more oompfh than a 5.56 round, but if 3-4 hostiles are in your house, you may need to engage multiple targets at once or in different areas. Being able to pop 3-5 rounds in each hostile and still have 10 rounds left in your mag is a good feeling. Also, if the need to reload does arise, popping in a fresh mag is much easier than shucking in 7 individual shells in a high stress situation.

Ammo storage: Along the same line of thought as the higher capacity comments, it is much easier to keep one or two spare mags with your AR than it is to keep 14-21 loose shells. I know there are bandoliers, stock shell holders, and slings with shell slots, but those still need to be pulled off one at a time and individually loaded, whereas you load in 30 rounds with one easy motion in the AR. And two loose mags next to your rifle take up less space than a bandolier with shells. Its also easier to just throw the extra mags in your pocket than to try and slip a bandolier over your shoulder.

Follow-on shots: I will conceed that if you hit your target center-mass with either 00 buck or a slug, you likely won't need a follow-on shot. However, in the case that you miss (say the hostile moves out of the way at the last second), it is MUCH easier to re-acquire my target and fire another round with a semi-auto 5.56 than a pump-action 12 gauge. Just the act of racking the slide back and reloading the chamber can break your site picture, not to mention having to recover from the intial recoil. With an AR, I can easily pop rounds at a very consistent rate of fire without ever breaking site picture.

Maneuverability: Especially in a 10" barrel configuration. I know you could do the same process with a shotgun, put on a 10" barrel and register it as an SBR. But even at similar lengths, the AR is a more ergonomic and maneuverable weapon, at least to me. Not to mention, chopping the barrel down to 10" on an AR doesn't really increase the recoil, noise or flash on it too significantly. The same cannot be said about the 12 gauge.

Over-penetration: The design of the 5.56 lends itself to stopping in walls. Not saying that every round is going to be stopped by sheetrock, but the way the 5.56 is designed, it fragements on impact. It has much less chance of punching through a wall than a slug or 00 buckshot do. And as far as punching through the hostile, unless it is a very shallow flesh wound, the 5.56 will almost certainly stop in his body without exiting. A slug can easily punch right through someone's body and keep going through a wall.

Effectiveness: In a home invasion scenario, you are basically going to be engaging in close-quarter urban combat. The weapon of choice for military and police forces the world over is a semi automatic carbine of one caliber or another. Some forces use bullpups, some use .30 caliber variants, some use pistol-caliber carbines. But they all use carbines. Shotguns are primarily left to the role of door breeching. It is a combat-proven platform for the exact type of fight you are facing in a home-invasion scenario.

Self-disorientation: Although the AR may produce a worse flash than a pistol, and it is definitely louder than most pistols, it is still less so than a shotgun. It may seem like a trivial difference outside at a range, but in close quarters, at night, the flash and noise from the first round you fire can disorient you just as much as your attackers. Every bit you can reduce that is helpful.


Now, all that being said, the shotgun definitely is still a fine weapon for home defense. A considerably greater amount of stopping power and a greater possibility of one-shot incapacitation should not be taken lightly. And although I think it is overstated in many cases and not quite as effective as some people try to make it out to be, the sound of a pump action slide racking in some cases may be all it takes. I would say that in the majority of cases, likely a simple burglary, that sound alone would result in the hostile fleeing. However, in a worst case scenario, where the hostiles have entered your home with the intention of doing you harm, all that sound would do is help them zero in on your position.

Ultimately, I think the two most important factors when choosing your home defense weapon should be your level of comfort with the weapon and how accurate you are with it. If you can't hit the proverbial broad side of a barn with an AR but for some reason can hit center mass consistently with a pistol, go with a pistol. If you just don't feel comfortable with a carbine, but a shotgun feels comfortable and right in your hands, go with the shotgun. Any weapon is useless if you can't put rounds on target with it.

jsnake

You can build one but warning to you. It is illegal to have an sbr complete upper or lower in posession with a complete upper or lower. Make sense? Basically if you have everything in posession to assemble the two complete halves you must have your tax stamp first. Learned about this from some friends who are in law enforcement. It is really hard to get the authorization for full auto.

I will have my second rifle build completed by March. It is like Barbies for men. So many options and customizations. I really enjoy the build.

alienmisprint

jsnake:

You can build one but warning to you. It is illegal to have an sbr complete upper or lower in posession with a complete upper or lower. Make sense? Basically if you have everything in posession to assemble the two complete halves you must have your tax stamp first. Learned about this from some friends who are in law enforcement. It is really hard to get the authorization for full auto.

I will have my second rifle build completed by March. It is like Barbies for men. So many options and customizations. I really enjoy the build.

Yeah, I figured I would need the registration done before I completed assembly. But hey, so long as the last thing I order for it is the buffer assembly and stock, and I have my tax stamp done before that, I'm good, right? Up until that point it could be a pistol build. I also take it that that means I do have to pay the additional $200 even if I build it? And not trying to go full auto on it, I wouldn't want it full auto even if it was easy to get approval for.

alienmisprint

Oh, but what if I have another complete AR and the complete 10" barrel upper? Since I could just switch out the uppers, would that be a no-go?

madurofan

I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose but my understanding coming from sound sources is as follows. Its not so much about them being a gunsmith and the safety and all as it is they have to be licensed to produce a Class III weapon. Almost like a manufacturing license idea. I was under the impression this was for all Class III weapons but again I'm no expert. I threw it out there more as my understanding is that you can't, so you better do your research. I've heard of too many that thought they were following the law when it came to guns only to find out they made a small mistake and its costing them big now.

All very good points and what I was looking for from you. I figured a large portion of your reasoning would be your familiarity. Someone like you with your experience I'd never argue with you using a AR for home defense. Someone who shoots occasionally and doesn't have tactical training would scare the crap out of me with an AR for home defense. Your point about 5.56 round being designed to fragment on impact is a good point but not EVERY 556 round is designed to do that. For you its likely the best thing there is. For most people it scares me if they were to use an AR. Military and police use carbines bc they are anticipating numerous targets were capacity and speed matters. They're also use select fire not semi-autos.

alienmisprint

Oh, and @Landon: As far as pictures, it will be a good while before its all said and done. From what I understand, it takes a few months to even get the registration done, and its a project I would be doing somewhat slowly, picking up parts here and there until its ready to be put together.

I will, however, post up some pics of the Ruger SR556 and Taurus CT40 I have at the house waiting on me, lol. I've got a bunch of Mako Defense Group furniture along with a Chip McCormick trigger for the Ruger, and I am seriously tempted to pick up an Eotech for the Taurus. The CT40 will probably serve as my home defense weapon until I get the SBR up and running.

madurofan

alienmisprint:

Oh, and @Landon: As far as pictures, it will be a good while before its all said and done. From what I understand, it takes a few months to even get the registration done, and its a project I would be doing somewhat slowly, picking up parts here and there until its ready to be put together.

I figured. I still want pics as it happens.

alienmisprint

See the above edit. And yeah, I will document it as it goes.

alienmisprint

madurofan:

All very good points and what I was looking for from you. I figured a large portion of your reasoning would be your familiarity. Someone like you with your experience I'd never argue with you using a AR for home defense. Someone who shoots occasionally and doesn't have tactical training would scare the crap out of me with an AR for home defense. Your point about 5.56 round being designed to fragment on impact is a good point but not EVERY 556 round is designed to do that. For you its likely the best thing there is. For most people it scares me if they were to use an AR. Military and police use carbines bc they are anticipating numerous targets were capacity and speed matters. They're also use select fire not semi-autos.

True that not all 5.56 rounds are designed to fragment, but the ones that aren't are poorly designed and I wouldn't use them. The rounds with the steel core go against the way a 5.56 round flies. As a 5.56 is flying, the rear of the bullet is actually rotating. When the tip impacts, the rear flips over, starting a tumble. This, combined with the front end fragmenting, is what stops it from over penetrating. With the steel core, it still tumbles, but the front end doesn't fragment. That goes contrary to the design of the round itself. What you end up with is the worst of both worlds, a round that still doesn't penetrate body armor or obstacles very well (due to the tumble) but does have the potential for more collateral damage. Its a serious design flaw.

As far as selective fire goes, I can't speak for law enforcement, but it is rarely used in the Army. A standard issue M4, contrary to popular belief, does not have a full-auto option. There is safe, semi, and three round burst. Three round burst is mainly used for suppression (cover fire) and not for pinpoint take downs. And agreed, they are using the carbine due to the likelihood of multiple targets. But like I said, that is the worst case scenario I want to be prepared for. If I am ready to face multiple hostiles, taking care of just one or two isn't an issue. If you are only prepared to fight one or two, and end up facing four or five, you may find yourself in a losing situation.

Rain

Thanks for clearing it up. I've hear over and over and over the 556 was designed to fragment, so I was wondering if they made some that did not or if it was indeed a design flaw. My first thought was "Why use 556 if it would not fragment?"

alienmisprint

Rain:

Thanks for clearing it up. I've hear over and over and over the 556 was designed to fragment, so I was wondering if they made some that did not or if it was indeed a design flaw. My first thought was "Why use 556 if it would not fragment?"

Yeah. I'm not 100% on what the concept for the steel core was, but it is definitely a design flaw. I guess it still sells because people just see "steel core" and assume it is a penetrating round without doing any research into it.

madurofan

alienmisprint:

madurofan:

All very good points and what I was looking for from you. I figured a large portion of your reasoning would be your familiarity. Someone like you with your experience I'd never argue with you using a AR for home defense. Someone who shoots occasionally and doesn't have tactical training would scare the crap out of me with an AR for home defense. Your point about 5.56 round being designed to fragment on impact is a good point but not EVERY 556 round is designed to do that. For you its likely the best thing there is. For most people it scares me if they were to use an AR. Military and police use carbines bc they are anticipating numerous targets were capacity and speed matters. They're also use select fire not semi-autos.

True that not all 5.56 rounds are designed to fragment, but the ones that aren't are poorly designed and I wouldn't use them. The rounds with the steel core go against the way a 5.56 round flies. As a 5.56 is flying, the rear of the bullet is actually rotating. When the tip impacts, the rear flips over, starting a tumble. This, combined with the front end fragmenting, is what stops it from over penetrating. With the steel core, it still tumbles, but the front end doesn't fragment. That goes contrary to the design of the round itself. What you end up with is the worst of both worlds, a round that still doesn't penetrate body armor or obstacles very well (due to the tumble) but does have the potential for more collateral damage. Its a serious design flaw.

As far as selective fire goes, I can't speak for law enforcement, but it is rarely used in the Army. A standard issue M4, contrary to popular belief, does not have a full-auto option. There is safe, semi, and three round burst. Three round burst is mainly used for suppression (cover fire) and not for pinpoint take downs. And agreed, they are using the carbine due to the likelihood of multiple targets. But like I said, that is the worst case scenario I want to be prepared for. If I am ready to face multiple hostiles, taking care of just one or two isn't an issue. If you are only prepared to fight one or two, and end up facing four or five, you may find yourself in a losing situation.

I'm way out of my knowledge base here lol. I have experience with exactly 1 M4 and it was a city police model and it did have 3 round burst and full auto. I was looking more to hear what you had to say than add to or debate it. Good info man.

alienmisprint

Well brother, if you ever find yourself in Texas and we can go get you acquainted with an AR, lol. Seriously though, I wouldn't try and talk anyone out of using whichever weapon they are comfortable with for home defense, but give the AR platform a look if you ever have the chance. Even if it isn't your primary home defense weapon, it is definitely a nice option to have that you can fall back on if you find yourself in a situation where you find the shotgun inadequate.

Not to mention, it never hurts to have both yourself and your significant other armed in a home invasion scenario. We are going to have to wait until we buy our house, but we are planning on getting one of the tactical wall inserts to install in our bedroom. I plan on keeping two carbines and two pistols in it. Whichever carbine Jennifer is most comfortable with and then whichever out of the two remaining rifles I am most comfortable with.

dennisking

My brother has one of these in .40cal. Loves it. He has the .40cal handgun as well.

jsnake

If you are building a SBR and you have another rifle or two that you could easily swap uppers and lowers with I think it becomes a grey area. I would definitely ask someone knowledgable so you make sure you don't get in trouble for something you did not intentionally do. I have a 14.5" barrel on my first one so I had to have my muzzle break pinned and welded to make it 16". On my 2nd I am going with a 16" barrel.

jsnake

Tried to edit this to above post but wouldn't work. This is my first build complete.


This is the second but I have the pistol grip installed now. Going with Mission First Tactical furniture on this one. First one is all Magpul


Actually here is the most recent update. I like anti rotation pins from K&N. I also always have extended takedown pins.

alienmisprint

dennisking:

My brother has one of these in .40cal. Loves it. He has the .40cal handgun as well.

Yeah, I was looking at the Storm too. I just dig the style of the Taurus more, plus it was about $100 cheaper. Hopefully they will hurry and come out and with some after market mags so I can shoot more than 10 rounds before I have to reload, lol.

jsnake:

If you are building a SBR and you have another rifle or two that you could easily swap uppers and lowers with I think it becomes a grey area. I would definitely ask someone knowledgable so you make sure you don't get in trouble for something you did not intentionally do. I have a 14.5" barrel on my first one so I had to have my muzzle break pinned and welded to make it 16". On my 2nd I am going with a 16" barrel.

I'll just play it on the safe side and get the barrel after I have the registration done. I do have a Ruger SR556 already, so it would be nothing more than popping the two pins and slapping on the SBR upper to make it a functional SBR. The barrel is probably the last thing I should get anyways, since I'm not 100% sure what length I want to go with. I initially thought 10", but I've been giving 7.5" some thought.

I'm on my work internet, so I can't see the pics, but I will definitely check them out when I get back to my room. I haven't built a rifle yet, but I am going to do some minor upgrades on my Ruger. I already have a FAB Defense recoil-reducing buttstock, pistol grip, and angled foregrip. I also have a Chip McCormick drop-in trigger. I'll probably also end up replacing the safety and charging handle, and possibly the BCG. I'm not sure if there is any difference between a piston operated and direct impingement BCG, though. If there is no difference, I may replace the Ruger BCG with a nickely plated one and use the Ruger one in my SBR build. The Ruger is going to end up being my range queen, whereas the SBR will be more of a workhorse build.

alienmisprint

Ok, so here's what I found out from the ATF website. If you are buying a SBR, you submit a Form 4 through the dealer. Once it is approved, you take possesion of the firearm from the dealer, nothing else is required. If you are building it yourself, you have to submit a Form 1 prior to purchasing all the parts to complete the build. You would have to at least have the lower receiver purchased though, because the paperwork requires the serial number of the receiver (unless you are fabricating the receiver from scratch, in which case you have to produce a serial number for it). In addition to submitting the Form 4, you have to engrave the receiver with your name, city, and state at a depth of at least 0.003" and height of at least 1/16". It is best to do the engraving on the stripped receiver before submimtting the paperwork, because once it is approved, that lower is now a NFA weapon and can only be worked on by approved personnel.

It looks like the hardest part of the process is getting your local police chief's signature on the Form 4 and having your fingerprints done. Once it is all submitted with your $200 check, fingerprint card, and photo, it is supposed to be approved within 90 days.

Also of note, it is illegal to build a machine gun. No fully automatic firearms are allowed to be produced in the US except for the purpose of being used/maintained by the government. The only way to legally own a fully automatic firearm is to purchase one manufactured before the National Firearms Act was passed, on 19 May 1986.

alienmisprint

jsnake:

Tried to edit this to above post but wouldn't work. This is my first build complete.


This is the second but I have the pistol grip installed now. Going with Mission First Tactical furniture on this one. First one is all Magpul


Actually here is the most recent update. I like anti rotation pins from K&N. I also always have extended takedown pins.

Very nice man, I really dig the dark earth color on an AR. I went with OD green for my Ruger, but I'll probably go dark earth for the SBR. I didn't see any stamps on the receivers, what brand do you use? How do you like the Magpul flip up rear site? I notice you have a flip up rear but no front site, why is that?

I went all Mako furniture for my Ruger (except the trigger guard, its Magpul), not really sure what I'm going to go with for the SBR. Probably a mix since I really like Mako's GL Shock stock but I wouldn't mind trying out some other brands for foregrips, pistol grips, and rails/handguard.

RedRex06

I'll toss this bit of info in here as well. Take the RONI glock-stock, for example. If you have both the stock, and the handgun that fits it, you have to have the stamp. Once you put the handgun into it, it is an SBR and CANNOT be taken out again. This was actually really disappointing, because I love shooting the Roni but don't want to pay tax stamps. Same goes with the AR-platform SBR; if you have enough pieces to make one, then you need that stamp sooner rather than later.

My source is a Class III gunsmith out here in Colorado. Also, if you swap out your upper, that makes it an SBR (of course) and you aren't "supposed" to take it apart again, ever.

Semantics.

alienmisprint

Yeah, I was tracking that once it had the tax stamp, it couldn't be modified or reverted back to non-NFA weapon. I think I'll hold off on getting the barrel until I have the tax stamp. It really shouldn't be an issue anyways, since I plan on taking my time acquiring all the parts for it. I will likely have the paperwork approved and back long before I get it all put together.

jsnake

I have the Magpul flip up front as well. This was before I installed the free float quad rail. I just put it together for a pic. The flip up sites are great and I only had to adjust mine two clicks and it was spot on. I like the magpul stuff but I wanted a different look for the all black so I am doing Mission First Tactical.

The FDE rifle is a Rainier Arms Zombie Lower. The fire selctor says Live, Dead, Undead. The upper is a Spike's Tactical slick upper with no forward assist. I plan on getting a Rainier Arms upper and Spike's lower to match them later but I might not. This rifle shoots perfectly. Not much recoil at all. I have a Spike's Tactical enhanced lower parts kit with Nickel Boron hammer and trigger, Spikes buffer tube and heavy buffer, Spike's barrel, Fail Zero Nickel Boron bolt carrier group. The all black is all Spike's Tactical and I plan on doing the rest in Spike's as well. Probably just a regular BCG but I highly recommend the Nickel Boron.

I have a S&W M&P .45 ACP in FDE to match.

alienmisprint

I was looking at the nickel boron stuff, other than being easier to clean, what are the advantages to them?

letsgowithbob

alienmisprint:

So, I have been toying with the idea of building a short-barrel rifle for home defense (and plinking) purposes. I know that if I were to buy one, I have to pay the $200 tax stamp fee and do all the extra paperwork. If I build it, though, do I still have to pay the extra $200? I imagine that I would still have to register it as well, just wasn't sure on whether or not I would have to pay the extra fee.

If I was you I would seriously look into starting a gun trust. It waives all the fees, and does not require a police sign off, and allows you to register all of your guns under the trust. It is a serious loophole in the process.

http://thegunwriter.blogs.heraldtribune.com/12314/the-benefits-of-a-gun-trust/

You can do the paperwork very easily, and it allows you a lot of protection for future laws.

Sasquatch

The paperwork and any tax stamps follow the lower receiver. Buy or build would be the same. The main difference would be that you can build exactly what you want.

no home defense, but for pure fun plinking try some of the 22 builds......

jsnake

alienmisprint:

I was looking at the nickel boron stuff, other than being easier to clean, what are the advantages to them?

Ability to with stand high temperature. It holds up very well when properly applied. It heats up slower and cools off almost twice as fast. It's also very Corrosion resistant. It could me in my head but I feel like this rifle just shoots smoother then others I have shot. That could also have to do with the buffer, barrel, and my Troy Medievel Muzzlebreak but I think it all contributes.

alienmisprint

jsnake:

alienmisprint:

I was looking at the nickel boron stuff, other than being easier to clean, what are the advantages to them?

Ability to with stand high temperature. It holds up very well when properly applied. It heats up slower and cools off almost twice as fast. It's also very Corrosion resistant. It could me in my head but I feel like this rifle just shoots smoother then others I have shot. That could also have to do with the buffer, barrel, and my Troy Medievel Muzzlebreak but I think it all contributes.

Right on. I didn't need much convincing anyways, lol, I think they look much cooler. Do you know if the BCG is different in a piston driven rifle versus a direct impingement one?

alienmisprint

letsgowithbob:

alienmisprint:

So, I have been toying with the idea of building a short-barrel rifle for home defense (and plinking) purposes. I know that if I were to buy one, I have to pay the $200 tax stamp fee and do all the extra paperwork. If I build it, though, do I still have to pay the extra $200? I imagine that I would still have to register it as well, just wasn't sure on whether or not I would have to pay the extra fee.

If I was you I would seriously look into starting a gun trust. It waives all the fees, and does not require a police sign off, and allows you to register all of your guns under the trust. It is a serious loophole in the process.

http://thegunwriter.blogs.heraldtribune.com/12314/the-benefits-of-a-gun-trust/

You can do the paperwork very easily, and it allows you a lot of protection for future laws.

I'll look into the gun trust, but from just my initial digging, it looks like it may be considerably more expensive to pay a lawyer to do up a gun trust than it is to just pay the $200 for the tax stamp. The main advtange I see to the trust is that there seems to be a bit more freedom with how you use and maintain the SBR.

alienmisprint

So, I know on the front page, I put up a pretty thorough list of why I thought 5.56 was a good home defense round. As I have been looking into SBRs, however, I am now wondering if 5.56 is the way to go in anything under a maybe 11" barrel. I do still stand by it coming out of a 16" (or even 14.5") barrel, but it seems like the velocity may suffer enough that it no longer achieves the required fragmentation velocity out of a shorter barrel. Keep in mind, I haven't seen any hard numbers on the velocity of a 5.56 being shot from a 7.5" or 10" barrel at 25 yards yet, so I can't say for sure. Its basically just been reading reviews and skimming through AR forums.

The question is, if not 5.56, what round then? 300 Blackout seems to be pretty popular, especially for SBRs, but damn the ammo is on the expensive side. I was thinking maybe a pistol caliber, like maybe a .45 acp. I wonder what the recoil would be like on a .308 out of a 10" or shorter barrel? Any opinions?