Is America a Democracy?

Krieg

If you asked this question, I bet 99.9% of people would whole heartily tell you YES! But just ask yourself one question, where does the word "Democracy" appear in our Constitution? To save you some time, I will go ahead and tell you. It Doesn't. I guess the question today should be is what is America TODAY?
Are we a Republic like for forefathers envisioned? Or are we moving towards something else? People would probably say right now we are moving towards the Left, Socialism , Communism. People on the Left have at times, said we are moving too far right towards FASCISM. But in actuality, Socailism, Fascism, Communisim, Stateism, Nazism, Dictatorships are all factions of the Left. Instead of thinking of Socialism & Communism (LEFT) vs FASCISM & Stateism (Right) you have to think of it this way: on the Left - you have Total control of everything by the Government. On the Right- There is no Government control over anyting- in other words ANARCHY.

Our forefathers designed our Constitution to fall around right of the Center. Which should limit Government to protecting the Rights of People. So what is America today? Democracy- ruled by Majority, Oligarchy- Ruled by a group (which is most common these days), or Republic- Ruled by law.

bigharpoon

I would say that even though we are creating ever more socialized systems that are government run we are still definitively a Republic. We have a small group of elected leaders that contain the power to govern the masses (hopefully in our best interests). We have the power to elect replacements for these representatives or even impeach them before the next elections if they deserve, but still we return to the masses being governed by a small group of powerful officials...a Republic.

Because of the way our government is designed with sovergn states with their own governments and elected officials and the union of states with under a federal system of elected officials there are so many branches of power that we'll never truly experience socialism, facism, communism, etc. because it is constitutionally impossible. Socialist type policies, you could think of it that way, but true socialism, no.

kuzi16

it seems that we are a republic that has started the slide to democracy...and that would probably end (in a very long turn over) in some sort of oligarchy.

this slide was predicted (with some stipulations) by Franklin ("a republic ma'am, if you can keep it") and Jefferson ("Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. " and "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. ")

...and of Democracy:
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
-John Adams

kuzi16

bigharpoon:

I would say that even though we are creating ever more socialized systems that are government run we are still definitively a Republic. We have a small group of elected leaders that contain the power to govern the masses (hopefully in our best interests). We have the power to elect replacements for these representatives or even impeach them before the next elections if they deserve, but still we return to the masses being governed by a small group of powerful officials...a Republic.

a republic is a state that is ruled by law...

however, the government does not follow the law. Politicians are always looking for ways around the Constitution or other ways to be Above the law. that is hardly a republic.

Krieg

kuzi16:

bigharpoon:

I would say that even though we are creating ever more socialized systems that are government run we are still definitively a Republic. We have a small group of elected leaders that contain the power to govern the masses (hopefully in our best interests). We have the power to elect replacements for these representatives or even impeach them before the next elections if they deserve, but still we return to the masses being governed by a small group of powerful officials...a Republic.

a republic is a state that is ruled by law...

however, the government does not follow the law. Politicians are always looking for ways around the Constitution or other ways to be Above the law. that is hardly a republic.

Then isn't it our right (granted by the Constitution) to basically take this government and start over? Who was it...Jefferson? That said a "Revolution every now and then...is a good thing". And no...I'm some crazy gun nut.

kuzi16

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ”
— Thomas Jefferson

Krieg

I can't believe I found a video that explains what I was trying to say this well, take a look. link

kuzi16

i think i posted that very video a while ago. i couldnt find it again myself. i wanted you to see it.

phobicsquirrel

Krieg:

If you asked this question, I bet 99.9% of people would whole heartily tell you YES! But just ask yourself one question, where does the word "Democracy" appear in our Constitution? To save you some time, I will go ahead and tell you. It Doesn't. I guess the question today should be is what is America TODAY?
Are we a Republic like for forefathers envisioned? Or are we moving towards something else? People would probably say right now we are moving towards the Left, Socialism , Communism. People on the Left have at times, said we are moving too far right towards FASCISM. But in actuality, Socailism, Fascism, Communisim, Stateism, Nazism, Dictatorships are all factions of the Left. Instead of thinking of Socialism & Communism (LEFT) vs FASCISM & Stateism (Right) you have to think of it this way: on the Left - you have Total control of everything by the Government. On the Right- There is no Government control over anyting- in other words ANARCHY.

Our forefathers designed our Constitution to fall around right of the Center. Which should limit Government to protecting the Rights of People. So what is America today? Democracy- ruled by Majority, Oligarchy- Ruled by a group (which is most common these days), or Republic- Ruled by law.

very well stated and a good question. I remember seeing a film on this very thing, for the life of me can't remember what it was, but it was a very good film. I would say that we have become a corporate form of democracy perhaps even a laissi faire capitalist state more than a democratic republic. One could even say Oligarchy. The people don't really elect their reps anymore, I mean if you really dig into it. the money is the objective and very few people actually are in the game for the real change that will positively effect their country. Taking the money out of the polictical system and moving more towards the republic we were founded on then I would believe the people would really elect their reps. Greed has overthrown this country and it did the same thing to ROME which is one of the closest examples of where our country has gone. By no means was the country fantastic when it was founded, I mean slaves, women were below men but over the years it seemed as though there was a real surge in development, then a crash. People have always managed to rise above others but it was more on true courage and determination and luck (sticking gold or oil) but the line was pretty much straight. After WWII was this really present, but it soon went away. When laws are created or even cut to favor one group (like now with large corporations) then the commons are fighting a losing battle. The rule of law has been very corrupted in this country and almost to the point that law only contains to the commons or the poor. How many rich well placed people have had the hand of the law on them? Well in recent history not many. I mean the heads of the last administration, the federal reserve, military contractors, heads of the insurance companies... In a real country of laws, if you break the law then you pay the price which should be done without any favor. This is far from what we have become.

phobicsquirrel

kuzi16:

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ”
— Thomas Jefferson

Most of them don't really do any good, usually more harm than good. And that statement was very true of the world were he came from. England and our state were two different animals. War and carnage are usually the acts of people that lack morality and wisdom. If people had these 2 things then war and carnage would not exist. Going back to the civial war, which side would you stand on? I ask this of everyone. I mean which side better depicts who you are? I know the North had the better intentions for the country, and it grew to more of a "free" state because of it over the years.

Krieg

phobicsquirrel:

Krieg:

If you asked this question, I bet 99.9% of people would whole heartily tell you YES! But just ask yourself one question, where does the word "Democracy" appear in our Constitution? To save you some time, I will go ahead and tell you. It Doesn't. I guess the question today should be is what is America TODAY?
Are we a Republic like for forefathers envisioned? Or are we moving towards something else? People would probably say right now we are moving towards the Left, Socialism , Communism. People on the Left have at times, said we are moving too far right towards FASCISM. But in actuality, Socailism, Fascism, Communisim, Stateism, Nazism, Dictatorships are all factions of the Left. Instead of thinking of Socialism & Communism (LEFT) vs FASCISM & Stateism (Right) you have to think of it this way: on the Left - you have Total control of everything by the Government. On the Right- There is no Government control over anyting- in other words ANARCHY.

Our forefathers designed our Constitution to fall around right of the Center. Which should limit Government to protecting the Rights of People. So what is America today? Democracy- ruled by Majority, Oligarchy- Ruled by a group (which is most common these days), or Republic- Ruled by law.

very well stated and a good question. I remember seeing a film on this very thing, for the life of me can't remember what it was, but it was a very good film. I would say that we have become a corporate form of democracy perhaps even a laissi faire capitalist state more than a democratic republic. One could even say Oligarchy. The people don't really elect their reps anymore, I mean if you really dig into it. the money is the objective and very few people actually are in the game for the real change that will positively effect their country. Taking the money out of the polictical system and moving more towards the republic we were founded on then I would believe the people would really elect their reps. Greed has overthrown this country and it did the same thing to ROME which is one of the closest examples of where our country has gone. By no means was the country fantastic when it was founded, I mean slaves, women were below men but over the years it seemed as though there was a real surge in development, then a crash. People have always managed to rise above others but it was more on true courage and determination and luck (sticking gold or oil) but the line was pretty much straight. After WWII was this really present, but it soon went away. When laws are created or even cut to favor one group (like now with large corporations) then the commons are fighting a losing battle. The rule of law has been very corrupted in this country and almost to the point that law only contains to the commons or the poor. How many rich well placed people have had the hand of the law on them? Well in recent history not many. I mean the heads of the last administration, the federal reserve, military contractors, heads of the insurance companies... In a real country of laws, if you break the law then you pay the price which should be done without any favor. This is far from what we have become.

I would have to agree with you to a degree. And that being that I think America is definitely moving away from a Republic. There are numerous factors because of this, Education...being a big part. I think Ameica is moving toward an Oligarchy. This reason is because of the Supreme Court. If Obama keeps appointing activist judges who CREATE policy from the bench, rather than enforce/interpret our Constitution, then there isn't much hope for our country. Only recourse I see is a revolution. (they're are many types of revolutions).

kuzi16

phobicsquirrel:

Going back to the civial war, which side would you stand on? I ask this of everyone. I mean which side better depicts who you are?

are you honestly asking me this question?

if you dont know the answer, i dont know why i have been bothering debating with you; it would be quite clear that you have not paid a bit of attention to the point of my rants and rambles.

Theedge

All I know is that the founding fathers would tar and feather most of our current gov't officials.  The things that the gov't gets involved in, and you and I are taxed for, have gone way beyond reason.

Our local officals were in the paper the other day bragging about the larger rooms, work out facilities and web access...........for our prisoners.

 

jsnake

Theedge:

All I know is that the founding fathers would tar and feather most of our current gov't officials.  The things that the gov't gets involved in, and you and I are taxed for, have gone way beyond reason.

Our local officals were in the paper the other day bragging about the larger rooms, work out facilities and web access...........for our prisoners.

 

Our founding fathers would start a new revolution if they saw what was happening today.

stephen_hannibal

Now it's a lopsided Democracy.... which is going to be it's down fall.

kuzi16

stephen_hannibal:

Now it's a lopsided Democracy.... which is going to be it's down fall.

i would like you to explore that idea more for me. could you? im not exactly sure what you mean.

stephen_hannibal

kuzi16:

stephen_hannibal:

Now it's a lopsided Democracy.... which is going to be it's down fall.

i would like you to explore that idea more for me. could you? im not exactly sure what you mean.

As far as politics go it's a democracy i.e. majority rule. But in every day life we are people ruled by law. For instance if you went to work and 60% of your co workers didn't like your accent you couldn't be told to stop talking. The reason it's a lopsided democracy is due to the fact that the ruling "majority" is a small number of the population. There are 435 representatives in the House while the population of the US is roughly 304,059,724. So technically the few rule the many but among their ranks the majority vote is what goes. Hope that cleared it up slightly.

kuzi16

it did. quite a bit actually.

Lasabar

stephen_hannibal:

the population of the US is roughly 304,059,725.

My girlfriend's Sister just had her Baby

phobicsquirrel

Lasabar:

stephen_hannibal:

the population of the US is roughly 304,059,725.

My girlfriend's Sister just had her Baby

lol, so did my co-worker.

gmill880

phobicsquirrel:

Lasabar:

stephen_hannibal:

the population of the US is roughly 304,059,725.

My girlfriend's Sister just had her Baby

lol, so did my co-worker.

Your co-worker is Lassy's girlfriends sister !!!???

Hays

gmill880:

phobicsquirrel:

Lasabar:

stephen_hannibal:

the population of the US is roughly 304,059,725.

My girlfriend's Sister just had her Baby

lol, so did my co-worker.

Your co-worker is Lassy's girlfriends sister !!!???

And knowing Lassy, he's probably the baby daddy of dem kids... ;-)

phobicsquirrel

gmill880:

phobicsquirrel:

Lasabar:

stephen_hannibal:

the population of the US is roughly 304,059,725.

My girlfriend's Sister just had her Baby

lol, so did my co-worker.

Your co-worker is Lassy's girlfriends sister !!!???

ha, that would be funny.

clearlysuspect

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

gmill880

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

I agree with a lot of this. The "average person" is no longer satisfied with having enough to be comfortable on they "need" more . I think a lot has to do with the information age we live in today . We are inudated with commercials, billboards, radio , the internet all telling people what great things are out there and they should be like everyone else and have these things. And folks don't really care HOW they get these things. Personally in the last 90 days after making a comment about how old our computer was my wife and I had a "client" offer to "pick one up" for us (shoplift) and went so far as to tell us we could pick out the brand , etc and we would have it in a couple of days !!! That really pissed me off , knowing we all pay more for stuff because people do this kind of chit , and secondly insulting my integrity that I would be a part of their scheme. This was a female who said thats how their whole family go their computers !!!
And the damn kicker ......she looked put out because we politly refused her offer to steal for us !!! She said " I mean I'll do it for free -no charge to you ! " Are you effin kiddin' me ...she's mule lipped because we turned her down !!!

PuroFreak

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

clearlysuspect

PuroFreak:

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

In many ways it is the industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... that have disassociated us with what is truly important, happiness. And it is simply a matter of opinion that to strive for advances in industry and technology IS doing the best we can, that somehow this is better. There are several small villages around the world that lack all of the technological advancements that we possess, but possess all the happiness that we lack.

stephen_hannibal

clearlysuspect:

PuroFreak:

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

In many ways it is the industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... that have disassociated us with what is truly important, happiness. And it is simply a matter of opinion that to strive for advances in industry and technology IS doing the best we can, that somehow this is better. There are several small villages around the world that lack all of the technological advancements that we possess, but possess all the happiness that we lack.

I'll say it's not the things themselves, remember the only constant thus far in the equation are people. Marketing can work some terrible miracles... "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it..." - Hitler

clearlysuspect

stephen_hannibal:

clearlysuspect:

PuroFreak:

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

In many ways it is the industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... that have disassociated us with what is truly important, happiness. And it is simply a matter of opinion that to strive for advances in industry and technology IS doing the best we can, that somehow this is better. There are several small villages around the world that lack all of the technological advancements that we possess, but possess all the happiness that we lack.

I'll say it's not the things themselves, remember the only constant thus far in the equation are people. Marketing can work some terrible miracles... "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it..." - Hitler

I apologize. I assumed we had already come to this conclusion and were moving forward from it. I believe that at this point we are discussing the affects of man on himself and his environment and the degree of his responsibility for the institutional, industrial, and social machines he and his fellow humans have placed into motion. It is always man who is behind the curtain, but at this point it is the thing (or things) that has been set into motion and the thing whose value must, at this point, be calculated.

gmill880

PuroFreak:

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

I think you may have mis-understood what I was saying Puro ...nothing at all wrong with wanting more , hell I would like to have a lot more toys than I do. My point was when you want more and actually go after it by any means necessary including not taking care of your personal responsibilities like paying your bills on time , neglecting taking care of your family or just plain old dis honesty then I have a big problem with that . The desire to do better and advance is what made this country a powerhouse and the desire to have it all now with no consequences attached and expecting the government to bail your *** out of your mistakes is what I disagree with ...I want everyone to have their dream but I'll be a SOB if I or you should have to pay for it for them !!! As far as I'm concerned you are entitled to exactly whatever you have the ability to gain by an honest days work and no more or no less !!! I think we agree Puro, Its just I'm probably not doing a good job of articulating my position considering I've had 1/2 bottle homemade grape wine and am now on my 2nd Fat Tire beer !!!

stephen_hannibal

clearlysuspect:

stephen_hannibal:

clearlysuspect:

PuroFreak:

clearlysuspect:

Yes. The key here is to ensure that "Capitalistic" is placed infront of Republic. In the end, we're a Capitalistic Republic. And our priorities come in that order also. Money first, then the law.

That's why I really could care less who is in the White House and who isn't. The downfall of our nation has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with Greed. And this isn't just pointed at the top, the elite either. This is even pointed at the average man and woman these days. It used to be that people wanted the simple things in life: a plot of land, a stable job, a family, and place to live out our days. Today, everyone is trying to be the next millionaire, or billionaire. It isn't enough to have what we need, we have to keep up with the Jones, we have to have the newest and the best. Because of our greed, capitalism must thrive. Because of our capitalism, our republic must fail.

My only reply to that is, what is wrong with always wanting better? What is wrong with trying do the absolute best you possibly can? That's what drives industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... That's how everything advances.

In many ways it is the industry, technology, medicine... etc... etc... that have disassociated us with what is truly important, happiness. And it is simply a matter of opinion that to strive for advances in industry and technology IS doing the best we can, that somehow this is better. There are several small villages around the world that lack all of the technological advancements that we possess, but possess all the happiness that we lack.

I'll say it's not the things themselves, remember the only constant thus far in the equation are people. Marketing can work some terrible miracles... "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it..." - Hitler

I apologize. I assumed we had already come to this conclusion and were moving forward from it. I believe that at this point we are discussing the affects of man on himself and his environment and the degree of his responsibility for the institutional, industrial, and social machines he and his fellow humans have placed into motion. It is always man who is behind the curtain, but at this point it is the thing (or things) that has been set into motion and the thing whose value must, at this point, be calculated.

Suspect, I agree wholeheartedly, but I believe a focus must be placed on the problem and not just the symptoms. What we need is not absolution but rather a restorative nature.... Also well written, do you blog?