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Ebola Virus

MorganGeoMorganGeo Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Non Cigar Related
Just curious as to the BOTLs' opinions on the forum about the two Americans being brought back to the USA with the virus?
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    0patience0patience Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Personally, I think transporting anyone with an infectious virus is a bad idea.
    Contain the transmission of the virus in one area.
    Call it cold or callous, but it's selfish on the part of the patient to want to come back to the US.
    Regardless of transmission, it's a risk they should not be taking.

    You asked.
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    "Two Americans stricken by Ebola in West Africa are coming home for treatment in Atlanta, and U.S. government officials are urging the public to remain confident in the health-care system’s ability to keep the deadly disease isolated. The State Department on Friday confirmed the medical evacuations without identifying the patients. A charity organization, Samaritan’s Purse, said two Americans in serious condition with the disease will be evacuated: Kent Brantly, a Fort Worth doctor who had been treating Ebola victims in Liberia, and Nancy Writebol, a missionary from Charlotte. "Umm....no.God bless them, but treat them over there. This despite the fact that a person infected with Ebola isn’t contagious until becoming sick. The virus spreads only through direct contact with bodily fluids. It isn’t an airborne contagion. Yeah, I'm a bad person.
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    jsnakejsnake Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do not understand this move. Just does not make any sense to take such risk not only to their health but to possibly exposing more people during their travels and arrival.
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    webmostwebmost Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    “It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
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    Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    Can we put their flight path over Ukraine? Too soon?
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    Can we put their flight path over Ukraine? Too soon?
    Nice!
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    MorganGeoMorganGeo Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can't wrap my mind around this.
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    Puff_DougiePuff_Dougie Posts: 4,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    This is on point. It makes absolutely no sense to bring these folks back here and take the risk of introducing this incurable and deadly disease to a new country and a new population. This is not an issue of compassion. It's an issue of common sense.
    "When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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    jd50aejd50ae Posts: 7,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Isn't this the basis for some real horror movie come to reality.
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    Gray4linesGray4lines Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyone read "The Hot Zone" by Richard Preston? It's a cool read and has tons of info on Ebola and the CDC. Anyway, not to give away the book, but the healthcare system not the government can keep a virus like that isolated.

    The Reston Ebolavirus may be transmitted through the air. This particular strain seems harmless to humans (only killing apes) but when they discovered it, they thought it was Ebola Zaire under the microscope, they look so similar. Zaire is the strain burning through Africa now.

    Could be one mutation away from airborne Ebola.
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
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    perkinkeperkinke Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭
    Puff_Dougie:
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    This is on point. It makes absolutely no sense to bring these folks back here and take the risk of introducing this incurable and deadly disease to a new country and a new population. This is not an issue of compassion. It's an issue of common sense.
    I think it is curable. A close friend works for a biopharma company that has a pretty profitable contract with the DoD and developed either a vaccine or a cure, I can't remember which but generally if you can make one you can make the other. but to get it into the public they have to get their *** together and get human trials authorized. I'm not sure if it's good or bad when the DoD says "if it's good enough for monkeys it's good enough for soldiers."
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    Jetmech_63Jetmech_63 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭
    perkinke:
    I'm not sure if it's good or bad when the DoD says "if it's good enough for monkeys it's good enough for soldiers."
    eh. That's how randy and I got pumped full of anthrax vaccine before it was deemed unsafe.
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    MartelMartel Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭
    Puff_Dougie:
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    This is on point. It makes absolutely no sense to bring these folks back here and take the risk of introducing this incurable and deadly disease to a new country and a new population. This is not an issue of compassion. It's an issue of common sense.
    The virus is already here and has been for years in research facilities. The risk is minimal, and Kent wouldn't want to come back if it weren't.

    I'm thankful he's back.
    Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

    I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot.  I will smoke anything, though.
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    Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    Gray4lines:
    Anyone read "The Hot Zone" by Richard Preston? It's a cool read and has tons of info on Ebola and the CDC. Anyway, not to give away the book, but the healthcare system not the government can keep a virus like that isolated.

    The Reston Ebolavirus may be transmitted through the air. This particular strain seems harmless to humans (only killing apes) but when they discovered it, they thought it was Ebola Zaire under the microscope, they look so similar. Zaire is the strain burning through Africa now.

    Could be one mutation away from airborne Ebola.
    From what I've heard, and this could be wrong, but this virus is far less likely to become airborne than most because of the sheer size of it. They don't really become "airborne" they're carried on the air in very tiny water droplets like when you sneeze or cough. Apparently it would be tough for something this big to do so.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
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    Ken_LightKen_Light Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭
    perkinke:
    Puff_Dougie:
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    This is on point. It makes absolutely no sense to bring these folks back here and take the risk of introducing this incurable and deadly disease to a new country and a new population. This is not an issue of compassion. It's an issue of common sense.
    I think it is curable. A close friend works for a biopharma company that has a pretty profitable contract with the DoD and developed either a vaccine or a cure, I can't remember which but generally if you can make one you can make the other. but to get it into the public they have to get their *** together and get human trials authorized. I'm not sure if it's good or bad when the DoD says "if it's good enough for monkeys it's good enough for soldiers."
    Well here we have our reasoning. Scare people into buying this currently unmarketable vaccine. That's why he's coming back, case closed. I'm not saying there's a real threat here, see above I think there probably isn't, but there is a real chance to make some $$.
    ^Troll: DO NOT FEED.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    Jetmech_63:
    perkinke:
    I'm not sure if it's good or bad when the DoD says "if it's good enough for monkeys it's good enough for soldiers."
    eh. That's how randy and I got pumped full of anthrax vaccine before it was deemed unsafe.
    Oh yeah.....that happened :(
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    MartelMartel Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭
    This is not a zombie movie. This is a fairly containable disease under proper conditions. Is there a threat? Sure, there's risk in smoking cigars that we all accept. I don't believe there's a hidden agenda here, beyond giving Kent the best treatment possible and maybe using this experience to find a cure and prepare doctors and facilities for a real outbreak.
    Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

    I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot.  I will smoke anything, though.
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    0patience0patience Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Martel:
    This is not a zombie movie. This is a fairly containable disease under proper conditions. Is there a threat? Sure, there's risk in smoking cigars that we all accept. I don't believe there's a hidden agenda here, beyond giving Kent the best treatment possible and maybe using this experience to find a cure and prepare doctors and facilities for a real outbreak.
    I can't agree with moving anyone with an infectious virus.
    Regardless of its transmission or how likely anyone else is to contract it.

    No offense, but comparing it to smoking is a bit of a stretch.
    It's more like there's a rattlesnake, let's stick our hand in it's den.
    We might get bit, we might not.

    This is a virus that induces bleeding, which helps procreate the virus. So people vomit blood, secrete blood or cough up blood.

    The fact that this person is a Doctor and he contracted the virus pretty much means something went wrong. If it is a containable disease, how did he contract it?
    And this wasn't a "real" outbreak?
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    Seriously...this is a "play with fire, get burned" situation. You want to treat a deadly virus, go ahead and God bless. But how surprised can anyone really be when you become infected with said virus? Fine, you want to do the "right" thing, then take him to an OCONUS medical facility and treat him. It's unnecessary. "Well we have the facilities to treat him safely" Maybe. Google Janet Parker. Besides, if it's so treatable and hard to spread, how the eff did he get it in the first place?
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    MartelMartel Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭
    0patience:
    Martel:
    This is not a zombie movie. This is a fairly containable disease under proper conditions. Is there a threat? Sure, there's risk in smoking cigars that we all accept. I don't believe there's a hidden agenda here, beyond giving Kent the best treatment possible and maybe using this experience to find a cure and prepare doctors and facilities for a real outbreak.
    I can't agree with moving anyone with an infectious virus.
    Regardless of its transmission or how likely anyone else is to contract it.

    No offense, but comparing it to smoking is a bit of a stretch.
    It's more like there's a rattlesnake, let's stick our hand in it's den.
    We might get bit, we might not.

    This is a virus that induces bleeding, which helps procreate the virus. So people vomit blood, secrete blood or cough up blood.

    The fact that this person is a Doctor and he contracted the virus pretty much means something went wrong. If it is a containable disease, how did he contract it?
    And this wasn't a "real" outbreak?
    He contracted it because they were working with makeshift protocols. They wore head-to-toe Tyvek suits, but they weren't self-contained atmosphere suits. Their facilities didn't include negative air pressure or redundancies. Their decon procedures were pretty much getting hosed down with a bleach solution.

    Another consideration is the ones treating them in Liberia. The hospital is evacuating all personnel because of growing civil unrest in the area. Samaritan's Purse has a responsibility to those personnel as well, and so does the US government. The whole thing isn't just about bringing an infected person into this country. There are other reasons.

    I'll admit some bias since I know Kent and a large part of his family, but I've also researched ebola for a class in biological anthropology way back in 1995 or 1996. It's scary, but containable. It's also unlikely that the contagion host, still unknown, will be found in the US, making it unlikely that it will stay around if there were to be an outbreak.
    Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

    I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot.  I will smoke anything, though.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    Martel:
    He contracted it because they were working with makeshift protocols. They wore head-to-toe Tyvek suits, but they weren't self-contained atmosphere suits. Their facilities didn't include negative air pressure or redundancies. Their decon procedures were pretty much getting hosed down with a bleach solution.
    So someone knew that their protocols were "makeshift"? That's reassuring. I bet he knew the dangers before he got infected. Apparently, in his mind the reward was greater than the risk. Until he got sick, anyways.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    I don't know how I missed this, but it makes my posts here irrelevant. +1
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    0patience0patience Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rain:
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    I don't know how I missed this, but it makes my posts here irrelevant. +1
    I have to agree with this.
    As a doctor, he knew the risks and what preventive measures SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN.
    He did not take those measures. He paid the price.
    This isn't a flu epidemic, it is a killer virus. And as such, no matter what the circumstances, proper procedures should have been taken. Where was WHO in all this?
    Again, he contracted the virus and as a doctor, he should have done everything proper to make sure that it did not spread.

    I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but containment is the priority. Anyone can say what they want about helping, working with makeshift tools, but the point is, it spread and it spread to those treating it.
    Not very comforting at all.

    I've said what I thought on this. I'll let it be.
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
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    MartelMartel Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭
    0patience:
    Rain:
    webmost:
    The doctor volunteered to risk his life for what he conceived to be a noble cause. He lost that gamble. Like Damien at Molokai. Now he gambles the lives of those who did not volunteer.
    I don't know how I missed this, but it makes my posts here irrelevant. +1
    I have to agree with this.
    As a doctor, he knew the risks and what preventive measures SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN.
    He did not take those measures. He paid the price.
    This isn't a flu epidemic, it is a killer virus. And as such, no matter what the circumstances, proper procedures should have been taken. Where was WHO in all this?
    Again, he contracted the virus and as a doctor, he should have done everything proper to make sure that it did not spread.

    I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but containment is the priority. Anyone can say what they want about helping, working with makeshift tools, but the point is, it spread and it spread to those treating it.
    Not very comforting at all.

    I've said what I thought on this. I'll let it be.
    The point is that he did take the proper precautions. The precautions are not first-world quality, but they are enough. He was infected because someone else didn't follow protocol in a third world country in a third world facility. The point is that medical personnel in America have even better measures than he had. The ambulance he was in on the way to Emory had better measures than were available in Liberia. He isolated himself at the first sign of infection and thus did take proper measures to make sure it did not spread. If containment is the priority, I'm glad it's being contained properly (and it is, I have no fear of this virus on American soil, at least not from Kent's infection). I'm also glad Kent has the chance to receive first-rate medical care. I don't think those are mutually exclusive aims.

    Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

    I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot.  I will smoke anything, though.
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    RainRain Posts: 8,958 ✭✭✭
    Martel:
    The precautions are not first-world quality, but they are enough.
    Obviously not.
    Martel:
    He was infected because someone else didn't follow protocol in a third world country in a third world facility.
    Where he CHOSE to work.Still love ya Eric. I've also said my peace on this...NCR makes me a grouch ;)
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    MartelMartel Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭
    Rain:
    Martel:
    The precautions are not first-world quality, but they are enough.
    Obviously not.
    Martel:
    He was infected because someone else didn't follow protocol in a third world country in a third world facility.
    Where he CHOSE to work.Still love ya Eric. I've also said my peace on this...NCR makes me a grouch ;)
    I will grant that the third-world precautions weren't enough to prevent Kent from getting infected...when they weren't followed by someone else.

    I don't have a problem with pointing out that he chose to work there. It's absolutely true. Knowing him, he'd make the same choice again.

    Once again, my point is the superiority of containment procedures in the US. The entire thrust of this thread has been along the lines of "this is how the Walking Dead" starts. I'd prefer to get my facts about the case and the disease from research, doctors, scientists, anthropologists, public health professionals, etc. rather than from some dark imaginings of worst-case scenarios. Because of the containment procedures enacted during transport and at Emory, Kent's infection poses less risk to anyone in Atlanta than interacting with any of my students, some of whom are statistically likely to carry HIV. There are know possible vectors for contagion and they are tightly controlled in an environment designed to be controlled for such a case.

    The fact that he chose to work there or not has nothing to do with the risk involved now.

    Furthermore, I don't know if I've raised the point here, but the uninfected Americans are being evacuated because of growing unrest in Liberia. No one would have been there to treat him.

    And I love you too, Randy. Bro hug. Don't go all Oscar on me.
    Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

    I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot.  I will smoke anything, though.
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    Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,462 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is scary stuff. As a Nurse, I've been thinking about this seriously for a while, and a couple of things stand out. As Martel points out, the best chance for treating the Dr. in question is certainly to bring him home, for all the obvious reasons.

    Also, the best chance of isolating and working with the virus in order to improve treatments and increase the likelihood of finding a cure, is to bring the virus here.

    In todays world of rapid transit travel, the incubation time of the virus itself, how long will it be before it travels outside its point of origin? When it does, being prepared with knowledge and hopefully known treatments will certainly be beneficial to everyone.

    Scary as it is, this seems like the only right thing to do.

    Doesn't it?
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
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    raisindotraisindot Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭
    Ken Light:
    From what I've heard, and this could be wrong, but this virus is far less likely to become airborne than most because of the sheer size of it. They don't really become "airborne" they're carried on the air in very tiny water droplets like when you sneeze or cough. Apparently it would be tough for something this big to do so.


    Agreed. This strain of Ebola is only transmitted via direct of exchange of fluilds. It is not airborne. Therefore, there's relatively little risk that bringing the doctor back to the U.S. to be treated would cause a pandemic. The biggest risk would be that he was bitten by a mosquito when then transmitted it via bites to others. But I don't know if mosquitoes can transmit it. (If they could transmit any direct contact-type disease, then AIDs and syphillis would be global epidemics.)
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    webmostwebmost Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    http://www.kentucky.com/2014/08/04/3365612/drug-given-to-american-ebola-victims.html?sp=/99/322/&ihp=1
    “It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
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    deejmemixxdeejmemixx Posts: 3,084 ✭✭
    Should have sent him to the dirty side of korea
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