Specific freezing question.

Bob_LukenBob_Luken already sucked before joining forum,.....just sayin'.Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭
This may evolve into a full blown discussion on freezing in general (as usually happens) but, anyhoo, here goes......... I freeze almost all my new cigars. Most of the cigars I have received in TPBs I have not frozen but have kept separated in desktop humis. My specific ponderation today is this - If someone has sent you a cigar that has a bit of age on it already, would freezing the cigar now have any negative effects to any greater degree than for a new stick? Would you be causing any significant setback to the aging process?
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Comments

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    i dont have the time this moment to look it up but if i am not mistaken beetle eggs dont have an extensive life span. if you have a cigar that has 5+ years on it you are for sure in the clear.

    the same could be said about 2 years. once i get below that im not so sure.
    when i have more time ill try and look it up again.
    just wish i could remember how long the eggs can last without hatching.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    I've had beetles with cigars that are older, specifically a partagas 150, or el Truinfador lance, and an old habanos. Those eggs apparently can last over a decade. I freeze everything that goes in a humi, aged or not. If I don't want to, it goes in the temp control.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    found it way faster than i was thinking i could...

    at 18*C (64*F) all eggs are longer viable at 6 weeks.

    LINK

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    I've had beetles with cigars that are older, specifically a partagas 150, or el Truinfador lance, and an old habanos. Those eggs apparently can last over a decade. I freeze everything that goes in a humi, aged or not. If I don't want to, it goes in the temp control.
    these are most likely a secondary source of infestation.
  • FireRobFireRob Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    I did not know about Kuzi's info on life span of the eggs. My policy has alway been to freeze every thing I get new or old unless I plan on smoking right then and there. Always wondered of the need to do it with something older but froze them anyways and will probably continue to do so...
  • PatrickbrickPatrickbrick Lake Zurich IlPosts: 5,057 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That was a good read, thank you Kuzi.
    "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give".  Winston Churchill.
    MOW badge received.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    FireRob:
    I did not know about Kuzi's info on life span of the eggs. My policy has alway been to freeze every thing I get new or old unless I plan on smoking right then and there. Always wondered of the need to do it with something older but froze them anyways and will probably continue to do so...
    I still HIGHLY recommend freezing any new addition to the humidor. just because they have been aged does not mean that they were not recently infected.
  • D_FreshD_Fresh Posts: 610 ✭✭✭
    Very interesting stuff and something I was not aware of being new to cigars. Going back to Bob's original question, I am interested if it has any negative effects on aging.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    D Fresh:
    Very interesting stuff and something I was not aware of being new to cigars. Going back to Bob's original question, I am interested if it has any negative effects on aging.
    freezing?
    none that i have ever heard of if done correctly.

  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    kuzi16:
    catfishbluezz:
    I've had beetles with cigars that are older, specifically a partagas 150, or el Truinfador lance, and an old habanos. Those eggs apparently can last over a decade. I freeze everything that goes in a humi, aged or not. If I don't want to, it goes in the temp control.
    these are most likely a secondary source of infestation.
    they weren't
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    kuzi16:
    catfishbluezz:
    I've had beetles with cigars that are older, specifically a partagas 150, or el Truinfador lance, and an old habanos. Those eggs apparently can last over a decade. I freeze everything that goes in a humi, aged or not. If I don't want to, it goes in the temp control.
    these are most likely a secondary source of infestation.
    they weren't
    according to science they pretty much had to be.

    LINK

    you can believe what you want, but that published scientific paper has some very compelling evidence.

    if you have any scientific evidence to refute, or another study that i missed, please share. I am only human and I am by no means an Entomologist, so i would be more than willing to read and learn more. this stuff is interesting as hell to me.



    the reality is that beetles can happen to anyone, up to and including the most careful of us. many of us have a very large collection and its very easy to let something slip and accidentally bring them in to the humidor. its a fact of life.

    also, not all tobacco beetles are coming from the cigars themselves. there may be other sources for an infestation. According to wikipedia the beetles can, and do, survive eating things like: "oilcake, oilseeds, cereals, dried fruit, sage, flour, and some animal products"

    talk about scary stuff knowing that even if i freeze every cigar that comes into my home i may still have a chance of having an out break based off of other things i bring into my house.

    almost as scary as Ebola.
  • Bob_LukenBob_Luken already sucked before joining forum,.....just sayin'.Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kuzi16:
    D Fresh:
    Very interesting stuff and something I was not aware of being new to cigars. Going back to Bob's original question, I am interested if it has any negative effects on aging.
    freezing?
    none that i have ever heard of if done correctly.

    Yes this Is the crux of my question. Does freezing harm a cigar that already has age on it? Does it undo any of the good things aging had done up to that point? If the answer is yes then I might decide to take the risk and not freeze it. Simply keep it isolated. That's what I'm asking. I think kuzi already said no. And that's what I'm hoping is the case.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    should all be good. age is about oils. the oils dont break down when a cigar is frozen unless it dries out as well.
  • Lee.mcglynnLee.mcglynn HahahahaaaaaPosts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭
    I use to freeze...that being said I have lost some smoke in the summer monthes so well I don't any more. As kuzi has sent the link it's all about storage temps to me. As long as I'm lower then 65 degrees I'm good. For the people in hotter climates I feel it's a gamble. Yes fridge to freezer to fridge sounds ok but if you live in hot climates out of the fridge can really put a hurt on you! This is where just climate controle really plays a big part!
    Money can't buy taste
  • BigshizzaBigshizza Posts: 15,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would think all CC's need to be tossed in the freezer..? Yes?
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes yes yes.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Bigshizza:
    I would think all CC's need to be tossed in the freezer..? Yes?
    Habanos SA freezes everything. I've had more from NC then CC. You are less likely to get them from Habanos, but should still freeze everything that is not temp controlled.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    kuzi16:
    catfishbluezz:
    kuzi16:
    catfishbluezz:
    I've had beetles with cigars that are older, specifically a partagas 150, or el Truinfador lance, and an old habanos. Those eggs apparently can last over a decade. I freeze everything that goes in a humi, aged or not. If I don't want to, it goes in the temp control.
    these are most likely a secondary source of infestation.
    they weren't
    according to science they pretty much had to be.

    LINK

    you can believe what you want, but that published scientific paper has some very compelling evidence.

    if you have any scientific evidence to refute, or another study that i missed, please share. I am only human and I am by no means an Entomologist, so i would be more than willing to read and learn more. this stuff is interesting as hell to me.



    the reality is that beetles can happen to anyone, up to and including the most careful of us. many of us have a very large collection and its very easy to let something slip and accidentally bring them in to the humidor. its a fact of life.

    also, not all tobacco beetles are coming from the cigars themselves. there may be other sources for an infestation. According to wikipedia the beetles can, and do, survive eating things like: "oilcake, oilseeds, cereals, dried fruit, sage, flour, and some animal products"

    talk about scary stuff knowing that even if i freeze every cigar that comes into my home i may still have a chance of having an out break based off of other things i bring into my house.

    almost as scary as Ebola.
    In both instances, these cigars were the only cigars with beetles, and they were separated from anything else. It is physically impossible for the beetles to come from another source. Science is not based on truth, it is based upon what is true most of the time. Believe what you want.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Science is not based on truth, it is based upon what is true most of the time.
    not sure this needs to turn into a debate of "what is science"

    im just pointing out a scientific study that is on topic and shows some very solid evidence of the length of time the eggs can stay viable in relation to the temperature.

    i also stated that i am willing to listen to any other scientific studies or repeatable experiments that can be found given my general lack of experience in Entomology.

    that is all.

    no more no less.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Since you are googling things, you should look up outlier as well. There is no debate.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Since you are googling things, you should look up outlier as well. There is no debate.
    again, if you can point out where the error was in the study i am all ears.
    please do it. because i am not a scientist. i am just going off the best information available.

    and saying "there is no debate" has never been proof of anything. ever.

    i actually encourage debate in this situation. i would love to see a different study or a more accurate one, or a discussion on why this one is not accurate or how it if flawed.

    that debate will make my cigars safer. pleas bring all scientific information that can be found. i want my cigars to be as safe as they can be.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Ok, so you are calling me a liar. My evidence lies in my experience, which you refuse to accept, and tell me I am wrong. Good day sir. Again, look up outlier... and take a xanax.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    OUTLIER :
    "In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations.[1] An outlier may be due to variability in the measurement or it may indicate experimental error; the latter are sometimes excluded from the data set."



    according to what an outlier actually is the entire study would have to be one for this to be a valid argument.
    100% of the eggs were no longer viable below 64F after 6 weeks.
    ... not all but one set of eggs.

    where is the outlier? all of the data is within expected ranges on a consistent basis.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Ok, so you are calling me a liar. My evidence lies in my experience, which you refuse to accept, and tell me I am wrong. Good day sir. Again, look up outlier... and take a xanax.
    no not at all.
    i am saying that there is a chance that your cigars got infected from a source you are unaware of.

  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    You don't understand science...its cool. And I already answered in regard to another source, it was not possible. Have a great day.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    You don't understand science...its cool.
    wow... getting personal.
    im just looking for answers here.
    catfishbluezz:
    And I already answered in regard to another source, it was not possible. Have a great day
    where was your other source?
    can you link me to that study?
    how you "feel" about your experience in an uncontrolled (outside of a laboratory) situation has no basis in science. how many test samples did you take? what was your control? how pressie was your thermometer? hygrometer? how many days long what your study? what was the methodology of ensuring no accidental contamination ?

    again, i invite you to point out the flaw in the study i linked. i would love to hear a scientific argument or a study using scientific methods that can refute my link. it will only help everyone reading this.




    EDIT:
    PS...
    if there are any people that are familiar with Entomology, or even biology, enough to point out how that study is flawed i would love to learn from that. as i have said a few times in this thread im not an Entomologist so this is a bit out of my league.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    Again....you don't understand science, a scientific article, how to read and interpret one, and what an outlier is, so there is no debate...at least not an intelligent one based upon the study you posted, and how you are responding. That means I am not questioning the study, I am questioning your ability to grasp what it says, and the concept of science. The guys that wrote the study do, which is obvious by their verbiage. You have not read it.

    I'm done here. Yes people you can get beetles in old cigars and even cigars that have been frozen.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Again....you don't understand science, a scientific article, how to read and interpret one, and what an outlier is, so there is no debate...at least not an intelligent one based upon the study you posted, and how you are responding. That means I am not questioning the study, I am questioning your ability to grasp what it says, and the concept of science. The guys that wrote the study do, which is obvious by their verbiage. You have not read it.

    I'm done here. Yes people you can get beetles in old cigars and even cigars that have been frozen.
    then you are failing to explain it to me.
    please do explain it to me like i have asked you to many times.
    what am i missing from your argument ? please, explain it to me.

    im just confused on how im misunderstanding this segment (Bottom of page 3 right next to Table two in THIS article): "At 20*C, Most eggs hatched normally within 4 wk, but all eggs died within 6 wk at temperatures less than 18*C. This agrees well with those of Howe (1957), but not with those of Fletcher and long (1976). The latter reported that ca. 1% at 15.6°C and ca. 60% at 18.3°C hatched, respectively, in 23–30 d and in 17–25 d. This discrepancy may re- sult from those studies’ different experimental pro- cedures, the accuracy of temperature control and measurement, and the insect strains used."


    thats fairly strait forward right there. 100% in temps less than 18*C for 6 weeks, according to this study.

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    catfishbluezz:
    Yes people you can get beetles in old cigars and even cigars that have been frozen.
    then why do you freeze? please teach me. i want to know.
  • catfishbluezzcatfishbluezz Posts: 7,001
    kuzi16:
    catfishbluezz:
    Yes people you can get beetles in old cigars and even cigars that have been frozen.
    then why do you freeze? please teach me. i want to know.
    to statistically decrease your chance of getting beetles. You've been learned.
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