@Hobbes86 said:
So, naturally, if an individual does not believe those things, a Christian is not going to believe that individual is on the right path.
Mathew 7:1 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Don’t get me wrong. I have Christian beliefs as well. I also believe that it’s not my, or anyone else’s, place to determine what path is “right”.
Mathew 7:1 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
What I said doesn't involve judging someone in such a way. If a person states that they do not believe in the Christian God and that Jesus Christ is not His son and nor did He rise from the dead, then why would a Christian believe that individual is on the right path when the Bible teaches that those beliefs are necessary to Salvation?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Catholics, Coptics, Manicheans, Messianic Jews, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists (me), Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Church of the Nazarene, Some Unitarians, Eastern Orthodoxy, and any that I left out, all "believe" that Jesus was resurrected for their salvation. Change the word Son to Messiah and you bring in a few elements of Islam as well.
So, these guys all get along, right? A member of one of these sects would never tell a member from a different branch that their beliefs don't count, right?
One wouldn't say to another "unless you were fully immersed, you're not Baptized"?
Or, "If you haven't spoken in tongues, your baptism is null and void"? Right?
Or, "You're a bloody Protestant so I'm blowing up your house and family." Right?
Or, "you believe that God reached a new prophet in our own age and formed a new religion, so that doesn't count." Right?
"The wine that Jesus drank contained NO alcohol, and if you think it did, you're going to Hell." Right?
Then there's the point that Rusty's been making. My sister also holds this position. Her example is The Little Pygmy. Deep in the wilderness, unknown even to other tribes, the little pygmy leads an exemplary life of love and kindness. Is a Just and Loving God going to send this little pygmy to eternal hell fires because he's never heard of Jesus? According to the official doctrines of some churches, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen.
I'm not buying it. I think a lot of people who are adamant about the exclusivity of their own belief system will be stoking those fires before that little pygmy.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Is a Just and Loving God going to send this little pygmy to eternal hell fires because he's never heard of Jesus? According to the official doctrines of some churches, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen.
I'm not buying it. I think a lot of people who are adamant about the exclusivity of their own belief system will be stoking those fires before that little pygmy.
Whose definition of just and loving are you using?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Well, I was thinking of the usually accepted Random House / Merriam-Webster type definitions, but, to put a finer point on it, the definition I reject is whatever twisted self-delusional definition that would send that little pygmy into eternal damnation.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Before we go any further. Remember to articulate YOUR thoughts and not the other guy’s thoughts. Ask if you need to know another guys thought process or motivation. Don’t tell someone else what they’re thinking. They won’t like it. Get all the information and be certain of their position before you tell them they’re wrong. They’ll appreciate that.
@Amos_Umwhat said:
Well, I was thinking of the usually accepted Random House / Merriam-Webster type definitions, but, to put a finer point on it, the definition I reject is whatever twisted self-delusional definition that would send that little pygmy into eternal damnation.
A couple of thoughts:
You stated earlier that you believe God created all things, I assume this means you believe He knows and understands a lot more than you. Yet, it seems you impose on Him your own idea of what constitutes just and loving. I don't understand why you wouldn't look to the Bible for your definition. God says and does many things that reveal His character and what truly defines "just and loving."
If all that was needed to be saved was "being loving and kind," then the Bible would be a lot shorter. It would also be far less important and going and being fishers of men would have no real significance.
Edit: Trying to make sure I consider Mr. Luken's most recent comment.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
There is tension in my Christianity which is produced by concepts I don't understand, some of which seem to contradict one another. I need to learn to live with that tension. For example, the love of God and the loss of a wife to cancer... those gears don't mesh very well... but I see the love of God displayed clearly and profoundly on the cross where the eternal Son was the victim of His own plan to redeem you and me. So the things I don't (or can't) understand, I leave them in God's hands and tell myself He has me on a "need to know" basis and that's good enough for me. If we can figure God out then He's too small and we need to find a bigger God.
God's Word doesn't tell us everything about God, Who He is, what He's like, what He's up to, and why. It tells us everything we need to know about Him, but there's mystery left in the story. Learning the rest of the story is what eternity is for, IMO.
There is something I call "the natural reasoning mind" that I think with, apart from the Spirit of God. 1Cor.2:14 says the natural man perceiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he, for they are spiritually discerned. I will not logically deduce and reason out all the intricacies of my existence, especially not through "the natural reasoning mind", it'll take a "renewed mind", inspired and lead by the Spirit of God.
@Amos_Umwhat said:
Well, I was thinking of the usually accepted Random House / Merriam-Webster type definitions, but, to put a finer point on it, the definition I reject is whatever twisted self-delusional definition that would send that little pygmy into eternal damnation.
A couple of thoughts:
You stated earlier that you believe God created all things, I assume this means you believe He knows and understands a lot more than you. Yet, it seems you impose on Him your own idea of what constitutes just and loving. I don't understand why you wouldn't look to the Bible for your definition. God says and does many things that reveal His character and what truly defines "just and loving."
If all that was needed to be saved was "being loving and kind," then the Bible would be a lot shorter. It would also be far less important and going and being fishers of men would have no real significance.
Edit: Trying to make sure I consider Mr. Luken's most recent comment.
Peter answered this for me quite well.
Still, although I do not pretend to understand the mind of God, as I stated earlier, I also do not accept the human interpretation of God's mind which allows one to blow up one's neighbors simply because you believe that their belief is not in keeping with your belief. I reject much of what Man does in the name of God. Obviously, some people accept those atrocities in the name of piety. At such times, I try to remember that God is not the only spiritual force at work.
Instead, I believe what Abraham told Isaac, "The Lord will provide". There's another path for that little pygmy, although it may not be open for me it will still lead to the door, the Way the Truth and the Light. When? How? I don't know. Faith.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I also do not accept the human interpretation of God's mind which allows one to blow up one's neighbors simply because you believe that their belief is not in keeping with your belief. I reject much of what Man does in the name of God.
>
In this we can certainly agree.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Religion is something I’ve always found interesting, and I enjoy people who take pride in their own without damning others for theirs. We often have such a strong sense of self that we refuse the ideas, and truths, of others. While I enjoy the teachings of all religious texts, I feel the most important part of discovering “God” often means letting go of the “Written Words” and finding “God” on your own terms.
There may be people who live their entire lives confined to a cell and worship the slot that gives them food because that’s all they’ve ever known. As long as they worship with good intention then I don’t see why anything with such great knowledge would damn them for that. As the saying goes, no harm no foul, surely something so great would understand that concept.
Say @MrPossum, you've mentioned "other's truths" a couple of times now and I am wondering what you mean by that phrase.
This isn't meant to lead into any "gotcha" comebacks from me, I just want to know what you mean by it so I have a more accurate idea of where you're coming from.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
To me, someone else’s truth is just reality perceived through their eyes that may differ in the way it’s perceived through mine. I don’t know the circumstances leading up to the way someone may be currently, therefore I can’t really deny the things they’ve told me, I can only come to a conclusion based on my own experiences. Plenty of people claim to have been abducted by aliens, many times it seems pretty far fetched, but at the end of the day I can’t really say they haven’t because I wasn’t there and I didn’t experience it.
What if "my truth" says that 2+2=5? Then that would be true for me, yes? Somewhere, there seems to be a disconnect between what one can deem as true based on their experience, and what is universally true.
I go back again to what I see most people do (nobody more than me), that is to find ways to rationalize how they interpret life and all it entails in ways that will protect themselves, and/or justify holding on to their beliefs. For example, I might work overtime to explain away UFOs and aliens because they don't fit into my worldview. Another might cling to their belief in UFOs because they don't want to accept that God created mankind in His image. And another (professing believer, or god-denier alike) will rationalize that God doesn't exist and/or what God requires in order to indulge his baser nature. We all have our own head-games going on, and many of those machinations go undetected.
@peter4jc said:
What if "my truth" says that 2+2=5? Then that would be true for me, yes? Somewhere, there seems to be a disconnect between what one can deem as true based on their experience, and what is universally true.
Very few victims survived scourging, the 40 lashes with the Roman flail. The imbedded hooks literally rip the flesh, the accessory breathing muscles in fact, from the bone. Then to be crucified, spear thrust into the liver and instead of blood, "water" (serous fluid) gushes out, meaning that the blood has ceased to circulate and has had time to separate. Then to be buried.
And still, I believe that this person returned to life and taught for some period of time before ascending to another plane of existence, where he waits for the time when he will return and overcome evil on the Earth.
That's some serious 2+2=5 kind of logic there. The Leap of Faith, to accept that which to the thinking mind must be considered absurd.
What other absurdities might there be which one could believe to be true? Just this one? So, I try to remain open. Some things I cannot open up to. Arbitrary cruelty, sadistic practices (see near entire history of Catholicism), stuff like that.
So, I think that the search for truth, undeniable and universal truth, is the right path. Wherever you* are or I am on that path, I doubt we've reached the end. Let's keep plodding along.
the general "you", not anyone in particular, or perhaps everyone in particular.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
There will always be a universal truth until it’s proven otherwise, that doesn’t mean it’s always fact. Universal truths are how we connect and communicate. We once thought magnets were magic, potions and tonics were witchcraft, the earth was flat. We also have to take those universal truths and perceive them on a individual level, processing the information and creating new ones. If a new set of universal facts are placed in front of us, we have to determine on a personal level what those facts mean and how we can apply them to our lives. We can continue to hold faith in our own beliefs or accept another. I personally won’t deny yours, because mine change daily and I accept that. That doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with them either though, I’m just open to the idea of them.
I guess that was my point; if there is in fact universal truth, then that truth is always going to be true. Magnets were always magnets, and the Earth was always round. The shift in our understanding of them didn't change the truth of what they always were. One's perception of something may change, but that doesn't change the subject. It may mean that my perception or observation was wrong or different beforehand; it may mean that my understanding has evolved, but I don't think it means Truth has changed. "My truth" my evolve. "The Truth" cannot.
I guess my point is, universal truth is majority, and there will always be a minority to that as well. So wether your truth is minority or majority I won’t straight out deny it, I’ll apply it to mine and if it aligns I’ll accept it as my own, but that doesn’t mean it’s definite. The truth is constantly changing, therefore we should allow ourselves that chance of change regardless of the majority. Don’t get so trapped in your own mindset that you lose the room for growth by listening to others.
No, truth is not constantly changing, it is a person's perception of truth which changes. People believed that Earth is flat, it was what they thought was true. When more information was provided people realized that Earth is not flat, but spherical. The truth was never that the Earth was flat, the truth has always been that the Earth is a sphere.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
And I agree with that, I guess I should’ve been more specific and said, the truth as we know it is constantly changing, therefore we should always be open to the idea of that change.
That's relativism. I'd guess it stems from a subconscious effort by someone to let themselves off the hook. I see it at work in myself;
"if I don't aim at anything, I'll never miss" kinda thinking. If I can stay vague and ambiguous then I can be culpable for not settling on what is actually true.
I do hear what you're saying though, Mr. Possum. And I do think we're in agreement, for the most part, just looking at the same thing from two different perspectives.
Comments
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Yes, we know
I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list.
Let's eat, GrandMa. / Let's eat GrandMa. -- Punctuation saves lives
It'll be fine once the swelling goes down.
Mathew 7:1 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Don’t get me wrong. I have Christian beliefs as well. I also believe that it’s not my, or anyone else’s, place to determine what path is “right”.
I'd be more than happy to tell anyone which path is right just need to ask
What I said doesn't involve judging someone in such a way. If a person states that they do not believe in the Christian God and that Jesus Christ is not His son and nor did He rise from the dead, then why would a Christian believe that individual is on the right path when the Bible teaches that those beliefs are necessary to Salvation?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Catholics, Coptics, Manicheans, Messianic Jews, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists (me), Baptists, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Church of the Nazarene, Some Unitarians, Eastern Orthodoxy, and any that I left out, all "believe" that Jesus was resurrected for their salvation. Change the word Son to Messiah and you bring in a few elements of Islam as well.
So, these guys all get along, right? A member of one of these sects would never tell a member from a different branch that their beliefs don't count, right?
One wouldn't say to another "unless you were fully immersed, you're not Baptized"?
Or, "If you haven't spoken in tongues, your baptism is null and void"? Right?
Or, "You're a bloody Protestant so I'm blowing up your house and family." Right?
Or, "you believe that God reached a new prophet in our own age and formed a new religion, so that doesn't count." Right?
"The wine that Jesus drank contained NO alcohol, and if you think it did, you're going to Hell." Right?
Then there's the point that Rusty's been making. My sister also holds this position. Her example is The Little Pygmy. Deep in the wilderness, unknown even to other tribes, the little pygmy leads an exemplary life of love and kindness. Is a Just and Loving God going to send this little pygmy to eternal hell fires because he's never heard of Jesus? According to the official doctrines of some churches, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen.
I'm not buying it. I think a lot of people who are adamant about the exclusivity of their own belief system will be stoking those fires before that little pygmy.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Why don’t they,…..
It seems like,……
If we all,….
Here’s the thing,…
I’m glad I could get that off my chest.
Is a Just and Loving God going to send this little pygmy to eternal hell fires because he's never heard of Jesus? According to the official doctrines of some churches, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen.
Whose definition of just and loving are you using?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Well, I was thinking of the usually accepted Random House / Merriam-Webster type definitions, but, to put a finer point on it, the definition I reject is whatever twisted self-delusional definition that would send that little pygmy into eternal damnation.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Before we go any further. Remember to articulate YOUR thoughts and not the other guy’s thoughts. Ask if you need to know another guys thought process or motivation. Don’t tell someone else what they’re thinking. They won’t like it. Get all the information and be certain of their position before you tell them they’re wrong. They’ll appreciate that.
A couple of thoughts:
You stated earlier that you believe God created all things, I assume this means you believe He knows and understands a lot more than you. Yet, it seems you impose on Him your own idea of what constitutes just and loving. I don't understand why you wouldn't look to the Bible for your definition. God says and does many things that reveal His character and what truly defines "just and loving."
If all that was needed to be saved was "being loving and kind," then the Bible would be a lot shorter. It would also be far less important and going and being fishers of men would have no real significance.
Edit: Trying to make sure I consider Mr. Luken's most recent comment.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Things I try to remind myself of. Often.
There is tension in my Christianity which is produced by concepts I don't understand, some of which seem to contradict one another. I need to learn to live with that tension. For example, the love of God and the loss of a wife to cancer... those gears don't mesh very well... but I see the love of God displayed clearly and profoundly on the cross where the eternal Son was the victim of His own plan to redeem you and me. So the things I don't (or can't) understand, I leave them in God's hands and tell myself He has me on a "need to know" basis and that's good enough for me. If we can figure God out then He's too small and we need to find a bigger God.
God's Word doesn't tell us everything about God, Who He is, what He's like, what He's up to, and why. It tells us everything we need to know about Him, but there's mystery left in the story. Learning the rest of the story is what eternity is for, IMO.
There is something I call "the natural reasoning mind" that I think with, apart from the Spirit of God. 1Cor.2:14 says the natural man perceiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he, for they are spiritually discerned. I will not logically deduce and reason out all the intricacies of my existence, especially not through "the natural reasoning mind", it'll take a "renewed mind", inspired and lead by the Spirit of God.
On this forum when uncertain I just ask Frank which one to smoke.
Peter answered this for me quite well.
Still, although I do not pretend to understand the mind of God, as I stated earlier, I also do not accept the human interpretation of God's mind which allows one to blow up one's neighbors simply because you believe that their belief is not in keeping with your belief. I reject much of what Man does in the name of God. Obviously, some people accept those atrocities in the name of piety. At such times, I try to remember that God is not the only spiritual force at work.
Instead, I believe what Abraham told Isaac, "The Lord will provide". There's another path for that little pygmy, although it may not be open for me it will still lead to the door, the Way the Truth and the Light. When? How? I don't know. Faith.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I also do not accept the human interpretation of God's mind which allows one to blow up one's neighbors simply because you believe that their belief is not in keeping with your belief. I reject much of what Man does in the name of God.
>
In this we can certainly agree.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Fishing
'nuff said.
Religion is something I’ve always found interesting, and I enjoy people who take pride in their own without damning others for theirs. We often have such a strong sense of self that we refuse the ideas, and truths, of others. While I enjoy the teachings of all religious texts, I feel the most important part of discovering “God” often means letting go of the “Written Words” and finding “God” on your own terms.
There may be people who live their entire lives confined to a cell and worship the slot that gives them food because that’s all they’ve ever known. As long as they worship with good intention then I don’t see why anything with such great knowledge would damn them for that. As the saying goes, no harm no foul, surely something so great would understand that concept.
Cigars are good.
Edit: Can you believe someone disagreed with this innocent sentiment?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Say @MrPossum, you've mentioned "other's truths" a couple of times now and I am wondering what you mean by that phrase.
This isn't meant to lead into any "gotcha" comebacks from me, I just want to know what you mean by it so I have a more accurate idea of where you're coming from.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
To me, someone else’s truth is just reality perceived through their eyes that may differ in the way it’s perceived through mine. I don’t know the circumstances leading up to the way someone may be currently, therefore I can’t really deny the things they’ve told me, I can only come to a conclusion based on my own experiences. Plenty of people claim to have been abducted by aliens, many times it seems pretty far fetched, but at the end of the day I can’t really say they haven’t because I wasn’t there and I didn’t experience it.
What if "my truth" says that 2+2=5? Then that would be true for me, yes? Somewhere, there seems to be a disconnect between what one can deem as true based on their experience, and what is universally true.
I go back again to what I see most people do (nobody more than me), that is to find ways to rationalize how they interpret life and all it entails in ways that will protect themselves, and/or justify holding on to their beliefs. For example, I might work overtime to explain away UFOs and aliens because they don't fit into my worldview. Another might cling to their belief in UFOs because they don't want to accept that God created mankind in His image. And another (professing believer, or god-denier alike) will rationalize that God doesn't exist and/or what God requires in order to indulge his baser nature. We all have our own head-games going on, and many of those machinations go undetected.
Very few victims survived scourging, the 40 lashes with the Roman flail. The imbedded hooks literally rip the flesh, the accessory breathing muscles in fact, from the bone. Then to be crucified, spear thrust into the liver and instead of blood, "water" (serous fluid) gushes out, meaning that the blood has ceased to circulate and has had time to separate. Then to be buried.
And still, I believe that this person returned to life and taught for some period of time before ascending to another plane of existence, where he waits for the time when he will return and overcome evil on the Earth.
That's some serious 2+2=5 kind of logic there. The Leap of Faith, to accept that which to the thinking mind must be considered absurd.
What other absurdities might there be which one could believe to be true? Just this one? So, I try to remain open. Some things I cannot open up to. Arbitrary cruelty, sadistic practices (see near entire history of Catholicism), stuff like that.
So, I think that the search for truth, undeniable and universal truth, is the right path. Wherever you* are or I am on that path, I doubt we've reached the end. Let's keep plodding along.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
There will always be a universal truth until it’s proven otherwise, that doesn’t mean it’s always fact. Universal truths are how we connect and communicate. We once thought magnets were magic, potions and tonics were witchcraft, the earth was flat. We also have to take those universal truths and perceive them on a individual level, processing the information and creating new ones. If a new set of universal facts are placed in front of us, we have to determine on a personal level what those facts mean and how we can apply them to our lives. We can continue to hold faith in our own beliefs or accept another. I personally won’t deny yours, because mine change daily and I accept that. That doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with them either though, I’m just open to the idea of them.
I guess that was my point; if there is in fact universal truth, then that truth is always going to be true. Magnets were always magnets, and the Earth was always round. The shift in our understanding of them didn't change the truth of what they always were. One's perception of something may change, but that doesn't change the subject. It may mean that my perception or observation was wrong or different beforehand; it may mean that my understanding has evolved, but I don't think it means Truth has changed. "My truth" my evolve. "The Truth" cannot.
I guess my point is, universal truth is majority, and there will always be a minority to that as well. So wether your truth is minority or majority I won’t straight out deny it, I’ll apply it to mine and if it aligns I’ll accept it as my own, but that doesn’t mean it’s definite. The truth is constantly changing, therefore we should allow ourselves that chance of change regardless of the majority. Don’t get so trapped in your own mindset that you lose the room for growth by listening to others.
No, truth is not constantly changing, it is a person's perception of truth which changes. People believed that Earth is flat, it was what they thought was true. When more information was provided people realized that Earth is not flat, but spherical. The truth was never that the Earth was flat, the truth has always been that the Earth is a sphere.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
And I agree with that, I guess I should’ve been more specific and said, the truth as we know it is constantly changing, therefore we should always be open to the idea of that change.
That's relativism. I'd guess it stems from a subconscious effort by someone to let themselves off the hook. I see it at work in myself;
"if I don't aim at anything, I'll never miss" kinda thinking. If I can stay vague and ambiguous then I can be culpable for not settling on what is actually true.
I do hear what you're saying though, Mr. Possum. And I do think we're in agreement, for the most part, just looking at the same thing from two different perspectives.