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The Good Muslim
Amos_Umwhat
Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've been thinking about this recently, since the post about the Mosque near the 9/11 site. After 9/11 I took the time to read the Koran, and, from my decidedly Christian viewpoint, I thought: "If God wants to call someone to him through this document, He can." I followed this later with reading Rumi, a 13th century Persian poet, who decidedly was a devout and divinely inspired Muslim, who famously said: "I've been to the Synagogue, the Cathedral, and the Mosque, I saw One Altar." So, I figured the "good" muslims are out there, just afraid, as were the "good" Christians in Germany during the rise of Hitler. There is, however, an undeniable sickness in Islam today. I recently received what I shall paraphrase below, some thoughts adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery Terrorism and Islam. Apparently there is a kind of critical mass effect when Muslims settle into a new area. At under 2%, they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority, not a threat, as is seen in the U.S., Australia, Canada, China, etc. At 2 - 5 % the begin to proselytize, often recruiting from the jails and street gangs, as in Denmark, Germany, UK, Spain. After 5% they begin to exercise an inordinate influence, pushing for halal (food laws) and pushing for this in supermarket chains etc., to include threats to the owners. After 10% open lawlessness begins, with car burnings and crime such as is being seen in Paris and Amsterdam, and non-muslim action resulting in uprisings and threats. After 20% nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad, killings, burning of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues. After 40%, massacres, militia warfare, as seen in Bosnia, Chad, and Lebanon. Larger Muslim populations routinely engage in ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc. See the recent history of countries such as indonesia, Iran, Syria, Sudan, etc. The follow quote from Leon Uris "The Haj" describes 100% populations: 'Before I was nine, I haed learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother, me and my brother against my father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel." A few years ago, I read a book by Alan Bloom titled: The Closing of the American Mind. Bloom contends that in is through tolerance that our culture will fall. At first, I thought "no way", after all, we need to be tolerant, don't we? Well, I'm starting to wonder. I'm thinking that if we remain tolerant of the intolerant, the world will soon become intolerable. Like the old maxim: All that is needed for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. Food for thought, anyone see differently, or a productive way out of this mess? Thanks for listening, y'all, just had to get this out there.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
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Do not misunderstand me. I have actually done, while not exhaustive, considerable investigation regarding the Muslim faith. I personally believe that, counter to what someone may tell you, Islam is a religion based on violence and, even more so, intolerance.
That does leave a conundrum for the person who subscribes to modern Christian beliefs, in that they generally believe that "to each their own" as far as the freedom to do as they please religiously.. Quite honestly, as a person who values freedom above everything else, I would not restrict anyone's freedom to believe and speak as they please. In fact the only time I would ever abridge someone's freedom is when it presents clear danger. I also believe it is every persons right and duty to defend themselves and theirs against all dangers. So, my personal response is to allow folks to say whatever they would like. Meanwhile I stand ready to repel anyone who wishes to infringe upon my freedoms. Whats more, I stand ready to do so with extreme violence of action so that anyone else with similar ideals would think twice in the future. I truly hope my life is a most peaceful one, where I can do as I please and everyone else may do the same. But, in the same way kindness should not be mistaken for weakness, do not mistake tolerance for submission.
BR> Bottom line, I love freedom, in all its guises. Personally I am fine with whatever someone does until it infringes. At that point, the gloves are off. Prepare for disproportionate and overwhelming response to those who would deny me my basic rights as a human being. And that has nothing to do with religion, but rather as rights bestowed by our creator on every human being.
Circling back around to your original post, I would contend that intolerance is a far greater danger than tolerance. When a group becomes intolerant they close down a part of their learning. I am not saying embrace everything. Quite the contrary, place strict scrutiny on everything. The group, however big or small, that closes itself off is destined to be overtaken. If anyone disagrees I would propose they study Chinese and Japanese history.
This last paragraph is strictly my opinions, but I would stand behind it. I believe that things are not nearly as black and white as most on either side of almost any argument would have us believe. In this instance, I do not accept that the choice is either not to allow anything or to allow everything. Intelligent people evaluate. One thing that saddens me on a daily basis is how weak willed people are. However, it is different than flip-flopping. Rather, I find people who have no opinion to be the most weak-willed. They latch onto whatever is presented and continue to do so no matter what future inputs might influence them. I believe a freedom-loving human being ought to gather the widest array as possible of inputs and weigh the collective body.
Forgive the overly long response. It is something that strikes a chord with me. I somehow hope that maybe others who would not have engaged this thread before, do so now, as it benefits us all.
This is a total sidebar, but as a future reference, dividing your post into paragraphs helps immensely in its readabliity
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
As far as breaking up your paragraphs in posts, it's this without the spaces. Put two of them together and you'll get a space between paragraphs.
Use one of these to make a line break. Sorry for the weird way of explaining it, but even with extra spaces it still puts a break in, so I had to write it out. Use two of them together for a paragraph
I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say what is happening now in the Muslim world seems contrary to your studies on the subject. Would you mind explaining this a little further? Thanks.
Like it or not, Muslims enjoy the same rights as any other citizen and are free to practice their religion. President Obama has sworn to uphold the constitution that affirms these rights. What would you have him say?
Whether it disgusts you, me or anyone else, that doesn't change people's rights, your idea that you should be able to decide who should get what rights (kind of goes against the inalienable part) not withstanding.
Certainly, keep your distance. I find Muslims despicable for the reasons I have already laid out. It doesn't change the fact that they have rights.
What is the name of the mosque, as I cannot find it. I imagine it is probably something inflamatory. OK. I probably will detest it. Doesn't change their right to freedom of speech, the same way I can walk around on a public street in the U.S. with a Kafir on my shirt. Bad things might happen. Doesn't change the fact that it is my right to do so.
You are obviously passionate about your feelings on this topic. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Historically passionate feelings have been used to take rights away from the citizenry. I cannot support the taking away of individual rights. You are mistaking my advocating for rights to supporting Islam, which I believe I have already made my position on clear.
No matter how much anyone may hate the idea of a mosque at ground zero, they are not infrigning on the rights of anyone else. Commiting violence is different, as it does infringe upon the rights of others. Gang units are a non-sequiter again being used to distract from the main discussion. Gang units do not tell gang member what they can say, nor do they tell a gang leader he can't buy a house in a certain neighborhood.
Keeping people safe is a noble goal. However, one would be hard pressed to successfully make the argument that the very act of erecting a building is subjecting people to unreasonable danger. Any argument that can be made on restricting freedoms to ensure safety can be taken to the extreme. We'd all be safer if we were restricted to our homes all day and never left. Rediculous? yes, but the idea that the govt. has any more right to restrict one's freedom of speech than it does to restrict one's freedom of movement is just as rediculous. What happens when you or I or anyone else is in the minority with a viewpoint that the majority find repugnant? is it OK to restrict our rights at that point.
It is unfortunate when people cannot differentiate their emotions from their rational thinking. More rights have been trampled due to this than anything else. I do find some amusement in the irony of this discussion on a cigar site where people constantly complain about restrictions on their liberties. But then again, that is a liberty you approve of.
Even if every muslim supported murder, that does not make them murderers. To be a murderer means to commit murder. While we may have a religion that encourages violence, that may make those who adhere to that religion a lot of things, but murderers isn't one unless they commit murder.
true they may not actually be murderers but many muslims support a culture that inspires and rewards murder of those who simply do not agree with their point of view, aka "infidels"
does that make them any better than murders?
i dont know.
i cant answer that.
all i know is that it isnt right.
After that I realized that there is some deep seated hate in some BOTL here and some intellectual black holes here as well. For some people the hate just clouds everything else out.
Of course there aren't any official numbers because people didn't do that. What makes you think it should / will be any different now with this situation. It is unreasonable to think that all Muslim's who DO NOT stand up in some public way to say that they are against what is happeneing are Murderer's. It has NOTHING to do with Political Correctness.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
im also sure there is a percentage of muslims that are afraid to speak up. it would be naive of me top believe otherwise. so then the next questions are this:
1) what is that percentage
2) is it actually comparable to the silencing of anti **** groups in WWII
3) if the population that is against the violence that takes place in the name of islam is less than, say 30% does it really matter? and to what degree?
im not sure it is a fool proof argument that they are all scared to speak up. why?
because Islam has had bloody boarders for 1400 years. Hitlers reign was a blink of an eye compared to that. how long will that group within Islam stand around and be idle while others commit atrocities in the name of the religion they love? ... especially with countries like the US, England, Spain, etc. that want to end the violence as well. thats a force to be reckoned with. if there was a swell of anti-violence sentiment within that community they would probably be spurred on by support externally.
iduno... just a thought.
as ive said before on this forum, i hope there are good muslims out there. I hope they show up and prove me wrong. i hope they take over the religion and let the religion to live up to the saying that it is a religion of peace.
one could argue that muslims have, in other countries, rounded up and shot anyone who spoke out. Darfur cones to mind as an example.
i know the refutation of the second point was a bit of a leap, and i am by no means saying that this issue with radical islam is 100% comparable to **** Germany but there are a few aspects that are the same and for discussions sake they are worth looking at.
I'm not going to rebut your second point because, as you stated, its a leap.