"Tolerance has become so important that no exception is tolerated" -Charles Colson
this is exactly the point Alan Bloom makes in The Closing of the American Mind. Funny, extremist tolerism?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The comparison to Germany is not valid. The German atrocities commited by Hitler were 1) within German borders and lands conquered by Germany;
so when hitler was sending rockets (as primitive as they were) and bombing raids on Great Brittan that was German land? or was that not an atrocity?
cabinetmaker:
and 2) were commited by a government. The German army and SS would round up and shoot anyone who spoke out. Not the same circumstances at all with a religion that in this country has no borders.
Islam is not just a religion it is a way of life and a governing body. one could argue that muslims have, in other countries, rounded up and shot anyone who spoke out. Darfur cones to mind as an example.
i know the refutation of the second point was a bit of a leap, and i am by no means saying that this issue with radical islam is 100% comparable to **** Germany but there are a few aspects that are the same and for discussions sake they are worth looking at.
When Hitler sent the rockets, it was an act of war BY a nation ON a nation during a war. That instance is also not comparable as the German people were not sending the rockets, the German government was. Again, protest = a bullet in the head. Germans in America at the time were vocally against it as well, not all but large percentage.
I'm not going to rebut your second point because, as you stated, its a leap.
ill save you the concept of "the nation of islam." Im not sure that argument belongs here
one way that you can say **** gemany and islam are similar is the use of fear in **** Germany to silence those who disagree and the the use of fear in islam to silence those who disagree. isnt this what the argument is about? the good muslims vs the bad? and how there is fear that keeps people from speaking against the leaders? wasnt germany only brought up as similar situation?
the **** party came to power and used the power to segregate the community among various lines. they killed those who got in their way. they use propaganda to convert people to their way of thought. they tried to expand their power wherever they could often times using violence.
isnt that exactly what many of the extremest muslims are doing? they have come to power in a few countries. they segregate along various lines (Christian, Jew, infidel vs believer, Men vs women, etc...) they kill those who get in their way. they use propaganda to convert to their way of thought. they expand wherever they can often using violence.
those are the qualities that often cause fear in those who would question their way of thought. the only real difference that you point out is that the citizens are the ones that help enforce. can we say thats the same thing as a neighborhood watch program to their culture? is it more like the culture in Orwell's 1984 where people are encouraged (by the government) to spy on their family and friends? i dont know. but i dont think its too far fetched.
so we are back to the question; are there muslims that are good but are scared to speak up (much like there were germans that were scared to speak up during hitlers reign)?
im sure there are.
are they ever going to be consequential? if the percentage is either too small or too scared, i doubt they will be.
I think the comparison to the rise of Hitler is an apt one. Look at Iraq after the liberation, pulling down Sadam's statue, etc., surely these people were dissenters prior to our invasion, but they sure were quiet about it. The scariest thing today is the ability of an oppressor to monitor dissent, which is why we need to restore our own country's freedom to dissent, before it's too late.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? Christians have them too now??? ANd also why does everyone keep calling this ground zero... it isn't. Yes it may be too close for the comfort of many, I get that. But it is not ground zero, that just riles up the people who are against this mosque, which is the real point. Truth and accuracy always seem to take a back seat to extreme points of view.
I'm more Muslim than you, so I'll kill you. And Mr. Infidel, I'll kill you if you draw Muhammad or refuse to stock halal food products in your grocery store because you have to follow our religion's rules whether you believe in Allah or not
Kuzi, I'm surprised you haven't weighed in here in support of their right to build this mosque? Given your previous stances on governments impinging on liberties...
I personally think this mosque is a miserable idea in horribly poor and insensitive taste, but it's the first time I ever found myself saying maybe Obama has some balls. He had to know how much this move would cost him, politically speaking. At least in this case, he seems to have the courage of his convictions, vis a vis upholding the constitution.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
Kuzi, I'm surprised you haven't weighed in here in support of their right to build this mosque? Given your previous stances on governments impinging on liberties...
I personally think this mosque is a miserable idea in horribly poor and insensitive taste, but it's the first time I ever found myself saying maybe Obama has some balls. He had to know how much this move would cost him, politically speaking. At least in this case, he seems to have the courage of his convictions, vis a vis upholding the constitution.
He always seems to have more conviction when it is a Muslim issue. After all, he was just breaking his Ramadan fast when he decided it was important enough to get involved.
got to add this in. here in nevada we want to get harry reed outta office. and for once harry showed he had a set and total disagreed with his leader Obama. still doesnt make me like Harry reed but for once he had the right idea.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
It's called protecting the american way of life and not kneeling to your enemies, and yes islam is an enemy of anyone who calls themselves free or even civilized for that matter. America is great due to the fact that we have what it takes to protect our way of life, so we can have the stupid banter about gay marriage and women's rights (yes I picked these because of the views of islam) As of lately though America is showing weakness. These savages have to be kept in check in you can call that whatever you want.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
It's called protecting the american way of life and not kneeling to your enemies, and yes islam is an enemy of anyone who calls themselves free or even civilized for that matter. America is great due to the fact that we have what it takes to protect our way of life, so we can have the stupid banter about gay marriage and women's rights (yes I picked these because of the views of islam) As of lately though America is showing weakness. These savages have to be kept in check in you can call that whatever you want.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
WOW !
So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
WOW this is some Heavy Discussion... WOuldnt touch it with a TEN FOOT POLE!
Smart man....smart man indeed. Forums like this aren't the place for getting into sh*t like this...if you have an issue with it, write a letter or call your congressman. It'll do a lot more good. That goes for both sides. If you feel passionately about this stuff, pour that passion into an outlet that will actually do something. It just turns into mud flinging too quick on here and pissing each other off is way too easy. I just want to smoke a cigar now lol
In all seriousness, Muslims do, by law, have the right to worship. However, they do not and should not have the right to demand special rights at the expense of everyone around them. They should not expect those that don't share their faith to follow their rules, either. If I draw a picture of Muhammad, I would be decapitated or stoned to death (and that would be seen as justice in the Muslim community). However, if I were to demand everyone to pray at schools during lunch, I would be shunned by society, because I'm a Christian and not a Muslim (there have been Christian kids suspended for praying on their own, but school faculty bends over backwards for Muslims, Jews, etc).
Also, the Muslim community really doesn't do itself any favors. Whenever an Israeli marketplace is bombed or an American soldier is captured, or even 9/11 happens, what does the Muslim community do? They certainly don't speak out against these attacks. They either stay silent or they start dancing, singing, and celebrating (as some Muslims in New York, Europe, and much of the Middle East did). And when the western world descends upon Afghanistan and Iraq, the Muslim community calls it a war against all Muslims and they start demanding special rights at the expense of whichever host country they're in. While this may not be their intent, this does certainly does worsen things because this sends a message to the western world that if they're not actively killing us, they're using the law to convert us.
I really would wish that the Muslim community would wake up and examine itself carefully when they start demanding respect and special privileges. But that will never happen, and so I will probably never respect the Muslim community in general, nor would I ever convert to Islam.
I don't want to get too heavily involved in this, but I guess I'd need to say this. The Quaran (I hope I'm spelling that right) calls for the destruction of outsiders in the same way that the bible does as well (I can't remember the line, but I know it's in a book that start's with D.) For a long time, Christianity instigated crusades and stuff that were just as if not more brutal then the current "holy war" or whatever you want to call it that a certain set of Muslim people are waging on us. Those people have not yet taken the step of examining this text and, like Christianity before it, casting it off as something probably added by a very unholy man sometime between it's inception and now. I mean, not all muslims hate America. That's an absurd thing to say. And you can't say that they are the only one's that demand special privileges. Everybody want's a bigger piece of the pie, everyone will grab at what they can. That's human nature, man, not the Muslim community reaching out and taking advantage of us, not more so then any other group anyhow. And as far as comparing the Mosque to a **** memorial, that's a pretty bad comparison. The **** movement was something that was joined; there were not the good ****'s who believed Jews were good. Those who killed the Jews during the holocaust were not some small rogue segment that was acting on their own and using the rest of the ****'s as a cover; it was a killing machine. Terrorists are part of a small subset. Insofar as the building itself, I could care less. In a few weeks, Madonna will have another baby or Tila Tequila will kill a man just to watch him die and that's all we'll care about. Buildings, no matter how mighty or significant, will crumble eventually. Why waste the time and energy?
This is useless, in a few years it will be just like it is in France where every thing you do has to be subjected to how "The Muslims" will feel about it. Your blood be on your own hands, I am done with it. " Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness" Isaiah son of Amoz
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
It's called protecting the american way of life and not kneeling to your enemies, and yes islam is an enemy of anyone who calls themselves free or even civilized for that matter. America is great due to the fact that we have what it takes to protect our way of life, so we can have the stupid banter about gay marriage and women's rights (yes I picked these because of the views of islam) As of lately though America is showing weakness. These savages have to be kept in check in you can call that whatever you want.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
WOW !
So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Sorry laker I thought I'd been pretty clear with all my posts, The issue here is the violence practiced within this group. Just because every single one of them hasn't killed someone there's alot of funding and "training" going on through these mosques. You can make the individual rights arguement but what about the rights of 9-11 victims? Hell what about the rights of their families? Your right to be free includes my right to be free from you.
Wwestern, I think you're on to something here, especially as regards the "savages" remark. Not to sound smug or superior, but my own mistake, and that I see reflected here in the ideas of many, is that we cling to our philosophical viewpoint, our heritage of freedom, in a way that may never be understood by those Muslims who hate us. This is especially relevant regarding Afghanistan, where only small segments of the population are any more culturally or intellectually advanced than they were at the time of Genghis Khan. Whenever, IF ever, we leave their country, no matter what ensues between now and then, they will raise their hands in praise of Allah and declare themselves victorious, because they are still there and we're not. Then the question becomes: "How do we maintain our own freedoms while containing the threat, without sacrificing our own freedoms for all time in the process?" I think this is what's rightfully frustrating Fla-Gypsy, because we're dam sure not interested in giving them the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. (I tried to clip the quote, but all I can get is "non-matching quote" message in red)
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Kuzi, I'm surprised you haven't weighed in here in support of their right to build this mosque? Given your previous stances on governments impinging on liberties...
I personally think this mosque is a miserable idea in horribly poor and insensitive taste, but it's the first time I ever found myself saying maybe Obama has some balls. He had to know how much this move would cost him, politically speaking. At least in this case, he seems to have the courage of his convictions, vis a vis upholding the constitution.
He always seems to have more conviction when it is a Muslim issue. After all, he was just breaking his Ramadan fast when he decided it was important enough to get involved.
to tie this back into the name of the thread "the good muslim" (this is what the thread was about before all this talk of the ground zero mosque started, and what i was commenting on)....
a good muslim would know that in the US you have a right to build it where you want but would opt to build it somewhere else simply because this is controversial. a good muslim that is looking for the claimed "community outreach" wouldnt try to alienate the community it is reaching out to. the imam (sp?) that wants to build this mosque already has one 12 blocks from ground zero. there are 30 to 50 mosques in NYC (numbers vary from what i have read) so its not like they NEED another on, especially right there.
yes there is a right to build a mosque. the debate about the mosque is not about religious freedom and racism, its about location and bad form.
they shouldnt be stopped, but they should be ready for this backlash and maybe more. in fact im sure they are ready for the backlash. they are using it to their advantage already by screaming "religious rights" this has been a theme that the muslims have used for quite some time. ... do something controversial and then hide behind "religious freedom"
WOW this is some Heavy Discussion... WOuldnt touch it with a TEN FOOT POLE!
Smart man....smart man indeed. Forums like this aren't the place for getting into sh*t like this...if you have an issue with it, write a letter or call your congressman. It'll do a lot more good. That goes for both sides. If you feel passionately about this stuff, pour that passion into an outlet that will actually do something. It just turns into mud flinging too quick on here and pissing each other off is way too easy. I just want to smoke a cigar now lol
I know what you are saying and would normally agree. However over the last several months we have had some pretty good discussions of a political nature and the discussion has remained the focus point. We used to drift into name calling, insults or any number of things which just detracted from the discussion.
Recently it has been taking on the "old flavor" but if we can continue to discuss things and realize that we change nothing from these discussions they are meant only to voice an opinion and to hear others opinions, then discussions like this can be very interesting and you can learn lots from other points of view as well. We are all BOTL here and should try to remain civil to each other.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
It's called protecting the american way of life and not kneeling to your enemies, and yes islam is an enemy of anyone who calls themselves free or even civilized for that matter. America is great due to the fact that we have what it takes to protect our way of life, so we can have the stupid banter about gay marriage and women's rights (yes I picked these because of the views of islam) As of lately though America is showing weakness. These savages have to be kept in check in you can call that whatever you want.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
WOW !
So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Sorry laker I thought I'd been pretty clear with all my posts, The issue here is the violence practiced within this group. Just because every single one of them hasn't killed someone there's alot of funding and "training" going on through these mosques. You can make the individual rights arguement but what about the rights of 9-11 victims? Hell what about the rights of their families? Your right to be free includes my right to be free from you.
Was that an answer to any question I asked you? The questions was pretty simple and straight forward, the answer I suspect is not so much...
I admit I have not read every post in this topic---as I can see both sides of this story and dont really have a ton to say one side or the other. But I did have this as a thought and this is
Would this be an issue if it were a christian monument or church? Now, the answer would be no...because they did not orchestrate 9/11. HOWEVER, I think that is the problem here. It has been the problem for as long as people made up the idea of a god. Its intolerance, anger, and fight to the death over beliefs. This is an area of great financial success and business and should stay that way. Religion of any kind needs to step the hell out (no pun intended). Make that argument instead of just the "muslim bashing" alot of people feel it is and I think everyone may be able to get along. Nothing may bring greater strength than spirituality...but nothing divides more than religion.
Well it appears that the Imam pushing the new Mosque (BTW, there is one just 12 blocks away already) plans to teach and promote Sharia Law in the new "cultural center". Why we are being so PC and tolerant they are planning the enslavement of an entire gender. This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
Ummm, I am not commenting on the arguement about the mosque being built because after all it is within their rights according to the Constitution and whatnot for them to build wherever they want. That is a fundamental right, whether they should build it there is another thing.
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? .
Please read the quote again, I said religious AND CULTURAL, it certainly qualifies in that right. I could have more acurately said and/or but I thought my point was easily understood. Thank you for pointing out my improper syntax rather than belittling my opposition. BTW, the Muslim world doesn't give a rats behind about our Constitution, to them it is just a means to an end.
OK. So enlighten me. What is the Cultural importance of that particular site? It is not the Muslims I was refferring to. I was actually talking about the stance that Obama took. If the Muslims that are building this site are American... then the Constitution gives them the same rights as ALL Americans. If you think that is wrong, or that Muslim Americans are somehow entitled to less rights then white Christian Americans...then I think you are on a VERY slippery slope.
It's called protecting the american way of life and not kneeling to your enemies, and yes islam is an enemy of anyone who calls themselves free or even civilized for that matter. America is great due to the fact that we have what it takes to protect our way of life, so we can have the stupid banter about gay marriage and women's rights (yes I picked these because of the views of islam) As of lately though America is showing weakness. These savages have to be kept in check in you can call that whatever you want.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
WOW !
So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Sorry laker I thought I'd been pretty clear with all my posts, The issue here is the violence practiced within this group. Just because every single one of them hasn't killed someone there's alot of funding and "training" going on through these mosques. You can make the individual rights arguement but what about the rights of 9-11 victims? Hell what about the rights of their families? Your right to be free includes my right to be free from you.
Was that an answer to any question I asked you? The questions was pretty simple and straight forward, the answer I suspect is not so much...
Question from Laker:So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Answer from me: The issue here is the violence practiced within this group.
I'm not going to answer about "YOU decide" crap because it's rediculous...obviously I don't decided who is what these are my opinions. But the other part I will answer it is yes anyone who doesn't denounce the works of islamic destruction is alot less american than me.(again this is opinion since it must be clarified.)
Western---You do realzie that between your sarcastic and uncalled for retorts, you youurself said what the constitution allows. It does not respect a national religion, but allows freedom of religion and for people to assemble for that said reason. You stated they were violent as a whole, this is your opinion not a fact and therefore not breaking the law. So by your logic, would it not be anti-american not to allow this mosque??? I am not saying I am for it or against it, but please lets not even talk about "these mongrels" and what they have done by bending the rules of this country after the YEARS AND YEARS of benfit economically to christian religions, schools, projects, and even tax free status of "christian" theme parks. To be respected and your opinion valued you have to be consistent across the board.
Just wanted to chime in with some interesting facts about this whole to-do....... My opinion on the issue is irrelevant to these facts, but for arguments sake, I'll let it be known that I think it's a bad idea to build a mosque so close to a site that is an embarrassment to the Muslim faith.
That being said (as lots of smart people like to say), I find Obama's stance on this issue interesting and disturbing for two reasons. One: Why does our President always feel the need to chime in on local issues? Two: Who the f*** writes this guy's speeches????
Not even 12 hours after Obama gave his speech at the Iftar at the WH, he basically retracted his statement to a reporter, in my opinion. Here's the quotes, you decide what he meant:
"Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." (From Friday)
"I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there," he said. "I was commenting very specifically on the right that people have that dates back to our founding." (From Saturday)
So, you agree that they have the right to build a mosque where they choose, but you don't agree with where they choose to build it????
Wow.
Just another tidbit from his speech last Friday........
In it, he mentions a historical reference to Thomas Jefferson. He got his facts waaaaaay wrong. He mentions that Jefferson had an Iftar with the "first Tunisian Ambassador" in the White House in 1805. Here's the link to that from the Jefferson Encyclopedia
Furthermore, I think it's a HUGE gaffe of the President to bring up Thomas Jefferson, who was almost the first President to go to war with Islam, at an Iftar and not have his facts straight.
Just my .02 on the issue........
Guns don't kill people, Daddies with pretty daughters do…..
Western---You do realzie that between your sarcastic and uncalled for retorts, you youurself said what the constitution allows. It does not respect a national religion, but allows freedom of religion and for people to assemble for that said reason. You stated they were violent as a whole, this is your opinion not a fact and therefore not breaking the law. So by your logic, would it not be anti-american not to allow this mosque??? I am not saying I am for it or against it, but please lets not even talk about "these mongrels" and what they have done by bending the rules of this country after the YEARS AND YEARS of benfit economically to christian religions, schools, projects, and even tax free status of "christian" theme parks. To be respected and your opinion valued you have to be consistent across the board.
All I'll say is you should go to a mosque and conversate with it's inhabitants maybe take a few of your gay friends or maybe really feminist lady friends and talk about how great america is and all the freedoms we have here... afterall it's a peaceful tolerent culture.
I dont listen to talk radio much, but I was driving last night and ended flipping back and forth between the left and right stations. What a sad state of affairs, I felt like I had been transported back in time. If peace were practiced as something individual and separate from religion and or politics, the world would be a different sort of place.
Comments
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
one way that you can say **** gemany and islam are similar is the use of fear in **** Germany to silence those who disagree and the the use of fear in islam to silence those who disagree.
isnt this what the argument is about? the good muslims vs the bad? and how there is fear that keeps people from speaking against the leaders?
wasnt germany only brought up as similar situation?
the **** party came to power and used the power to segregate the community among various lines. they killed those who got in their way. they use propaganda to convert people to their way of thought. they tried to expand their power wherever they could often times using violence.
isnt that exactly what many of the extremest muslims are doing? they have come to power in a few countries. they segregate along various lines (Christian, Jew, infidel vs believer, Men vs women, etc...) they kill those who get in their way. they use propaganda to convert to their way of thought. they expand wherever they can often using violence.
those are the qualities that often cause fear in those who would question their way of thought.
the only real difference that you point out is that the citizens are the ones that help enforce.
can we say thats the same thing as a neighborhood watch program to their culture?
is it more like the culture in Orwell's 1984 where people are encouraged (by the government) to spy on their family and friends?
i dont know.
but i dont think its too far fetched.
so we are back to the question; are there muslims that are good but are scared to speak up (much like there were germans that were scared to speak up during hitlers reign)?
im sure there are.
are they ever going to be consequential?
if the percentage is either too small or too scared, i doubt they will be.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
However in your post you mention this...
This type of behavior (building mosques on important religious and cultural sites of others) is a favorite tactic of Islam around the world to demonstrate the dominance/superiority of their religion.
When did this site become an important religious site? Christians have them too now??? ANd also why does everyone keep calling this ground zero... it isn't. Yes it may be too close for the comfort of many, I get that. But it is not ground zero, that just riles up the people who are against this mosque, which is the real point. Truth and accuracy always seem to take a back seat to extreme points of view.
I personally think this mosque is a miserable idea in horribly poor and insensitive taste, but it's the first time I ever found myself saying maybe Obama has some balls. He had to know how much this move would cost him, politically speaking. At least in this case, he seems to have the courage of his convictions, vis a vis upholding the constitution.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That what you're talking about? What is peaceful about these people? It's funny how the constitution only applies to non christian religion, no matter how horribly it has to be distorted to fit the situation. You are right on one point, it is a very slippery slope. If we show one ounce of weakness to these mongrels they're going to pounce, then build more memorials of conquer errrr I mean mosques.
So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Also, the Muslim community really doesn't do itself any favors. Whenever an Israeli marketplace is bombed or an American soldier is captured, or even 9/11 happens, what does the Muslim community do? They certainly don't speak out against these attacks. They either stay silent or they start dancing, singing, and celebrating (as some Muslims in New York, Europe, and much of the Middle East did). And when the western world descends upon Afghanistan and Iraq, the Muslim community calls it a war against all Muslims and they start demanding special rights at the expense of whichever host country they're in. While this may not be their intent, this does certainly does worsen things because this sends a message to the western world that if they're not actively killing us, they're using the law to convert us.
I really would wish that the Muslim community would wake up and examine itself carefully when they start demanding respect and special privileges. But that will never happen, and so I will probably never respect the Muslim community in general, nor would I ever convert to Islam.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
a good muslim would know that in the US you have a right to build it where you want but would opt to build it somewhere else simply because this is controversial. a good muslim that is looking for the claimed "community outreach" wouldnt try to alienate the community it is reaching out to.
the imam (sp?) that wants to build this mosque already has one 12 blocks from ground zero. there are 30 to 50 mosques in NYC (numbers vary from what i have read) so its not like they NEED another on, especially right there.
yes there is a right to build a mosque. the debate about the mosque is not about religious freedom and racism, its about location and bad form.
they shouldnt be stopped, but they should be ready for this backlash and maybe more. in fact im sure they are ready for the backlash. they are using it to their advantage already by screaming "religious rights"
this has been a theme that the muslims have used for quite some time.
... do something controversial and then hide behind "religious freedom"
people will get sick of it.
why dont we place a memorial statue to emperor hirohito at the nautical entrance to pearl harbor?
same thing.
not illegal. just bad taste.
Recently it has been taking on the "old flavor" but if we can continue to discuss things and realize that we change nothing from these discussions they are meant only to voice an opinion and to hear others opinions, then discussions like this can be very interesting and you can learn lots from other points of view as well. We are all BOTL here and should try to remain civil to each other.
Would this be an issue if it were a christian monument or church? Now, the answer would be no...because they did not orchestrate 9/11. HOWEVER, I think that is the problem here. It has been the problem for as long as people made up the idea of a god. Its intolerance, anger, and fight to the death over beliefs. This is an area of great financial success and business and should stay that way. Religion of any kind needs to step the hell out (no pun intended). Make that argument instead of just the "muslim bashing" alot of people feel it is and I think everyone may be able to get along. Nothing may bring greater strength than spirituality...but nothing divides more than religion.
Question from Laker:So every American has the same rights as long as YOU decide they are worthy? So in your eyes ANY ISLAMIC American is a little less American than you and people who think like you are ? I am seriously asking you your opinion here, I am interested in your views on this issue as it applies to individual rights.
Answer from me: The issue here is the violence practiced within this group.
I'm not going to answer about "YOU decide" crap because it's rediculous...obviously I don't decided who is what these are my opinions. But the other part I will answer it is yes anyone who doesn't denounce the works of islamic destruction is alot less american than me.(again this is opinion since it must be clarified.)
This format work for the Q&A ?
That being said (as lots of smart people like to say), I find Obama's stance on this issue interesting and disturbing for two reasons. One: Why does our President always feel the need to chime in on local issues? Two: Who the f*** writes this guy's speeches????
Not even 12 hours after Obama gave his speech at the Iftar at the WH, he basically retracted his statement to a reporter, in my opinion. Here's the quotes, you decide what he meant:
"Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." (From Friday)
"I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there," he said. "I was commenting very specifically on the right that people have that dates back to our founding." (From Saturday)
So, you agree that they have the right to build a mosque where they choose, but you don't agree with where they choose to build it????
Wow.
Just another tidbit from his speech last Friday........
In it, he mentions a historical reference to Thomas Jefferson. He got his facts waaaaaay wrong. He mentions that Jefferson had an Iftar with the "first Tunisian Ambassador" in the White House in 1805. Here's the link to that from the Jefferson Encyclopedia
Furthermore, I think it's a HUGE gaffe of the President to bring up Thomas Jefferson, who was almost the first President to go to war with Islam, at an Iftar and not have his facts straight.
Just my .02 on the issue........