Freedom? A Krieg Rant

KriegKrieg Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭
So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
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Comments

  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.
    ... oh i have been
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    If the ever impose a tax on being a smart ass we are ALL gonna be some broke people!!!
  • KriegKrieg Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    I guess that's better than being a dumbass ;)
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    Krieg:
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    I guess that's better than being a dumbass ;)
    I do that, too
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    If the ever impose a tax on being a smart ass we are ALL gonna be some broke people!!!
    for sure... If they did that, I'd leave the country... except that I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't think of it ;)
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    dutyje:
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    If the ever impose a tax on being a smart ass we are ALL gonna be some broke people!!!
    for sure... If they did that, I'd leave the country... except that I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't think of it ;)

    Boys I think this whole thing could be settled over a good cigar and a mules ear full 'o bourbon as grand dad would say ...
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    If the ever impose a tax on being a smart ass we are ALL gonna be some broke people!!!
    for sure... If they did that, I'd leave the country... except that I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't think of it ;)

    Boys I think this whole thing could be settled over a good cigar and a mules ear full 'o bourbon as grand dad would say ...
    Only if you're buying... I'm a socialist ;)
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    i dont want to measure success of the economy by how many people we are helping. I want to measure it in how many people dont need help.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
    tell me what he and his admin did to not cause this
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
    tell me what he and his admin did to not cause this
    Haha Truely spoken like someone who has absolutely no case. W. didn't do as much as he should have and I agree, but he did lower taxes which created groth in the economy. It just wasn't enough to justify the insane amount of spending our government does and it didn't do enough to help keep jobs here in our country by making it affordable for companies to stay here.
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    Gotta side with Puro, here.. SOP for this board is that if you're going to make a claim, you need to back it up.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    dutyje:
    Gotta side with Puro, here.. SOP for this board is that if you're going to make a claim, you need to back it up.
    i agree with puro as well. bush did make poor spending decisions.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    dutyje:
    Gotta side with Puro, here.. SOP for this board is that if you're going to make a claim, you need to back it up.
    And that is why i respect you and your opinions. I may not agree with you most of the time, but I do appreciate the fact that you are always willing to debate it and do all you can to back it up. Plus you did make a damn fine offering in our trade! I've had one of the Royal Brigades and one of the Casa Magnas and they are both good smokes. the Royal Brigage is awesome!
  • dutyjedutyje Posts: 2,263
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    Gotta side with Puro, here.. SOP for this board is that if you're going to make a claim, you need to back it up.
    And that is why i respect you and your opinions. I may not agree with you most of the time, but I do appreciate the fact that you are always willing to debate it and do all you can to back it up. Plus you did make a damn fine offering in our trade! I've had one of the Royal Brigades and one of the Casa Magnas and they are both good smokes. the Royal Brigage is awesome!
    I've regretted giving up the Royal Brigades every time I look at the last one I have left. Glad you enjoyed them, or I'd feel really bad. I bought 2 originally, and shared them with my father-in-law. It was awesome, especially in the warm weather. I bought a 5er with the expectation of aging them to the summer.. I gave 2 away in games here, and traded you the other two. That Casa Magna is a very solid cigar as well, but I can get those at the shop here at a decent price ($5-ish? Maybe even a bit less?). I thought about taking Urby up on his offer, but I haven't the room, and have nothing left to offer in a trade. The Royal Brigades can be found relatively cheap as well, if you look around.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    dutyje:
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    Gotta side with Puro, here.. SOP for this board is that if you're going to make a claim, you need to back it up.
    And that is why i respect you and your opinions. I may not agree with you most of the time, but I do appreciate the fact that you are always willing to debate it and do all you can to back it up. Plus you did make a damn fine offering in our trade! I've had one of the Royal Brigades and one of the Casa Magnas and they are both good smokes. the Royal Brigage is awesome!
    I've regretted giving up the Royal Brigades every time I look at the last one I have left. Glad you enjoyed them, or I'd feel really bad. I bought 2 originally, and shared them with my father-in-law. It was awesome, especially in the warm weather. I bought a 5er with the expectation of aging them to the summer.. I gave 2 away in games here, and traded you the other two. That Casa Magna is a very solid cigar as well, but I can get those at the shop here at a decent price ($5-ish? Maybe even a bit less?). I thought about taking Urby up on his offer, but I haven't the room, and have nothing left to offer in a trade. The Royal Brigades can be found relatively cheap as well, if you look around.
    Yea I'm planning on picking up some more of them as soon as I have the room in my humidor and the room in my budget! lol My wife would kill me if bought anything else right now!
  • gmill880gmill880 Posts: 5,947
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    PuroFreak:
    dutyje:
    gmill880:
    dutyje:
    The great thing about this country is that people can put whoever they want in office. The people have made their choice. Feel free to exercise your right to **** about it.

    uummm....I think he just did Joe ;)
    of course he did.. I was exercising my right to be a smart ass
    If the ever impose a tax on being a smart ass we are ALL gonna be some broke people!!!
    for sure... If they did that, I'd leave the country... except that I'm a dumbass and probably wouldn't think of it ;)

    Boys I think this whole thing could be settled over a good cigar and a mules ear full 'o bourbon as grand dad would say ...
    Only if you're buying... I'm a socialist ;)

    I'll bet your a sociable socialist though....Yes I will buy the first round then we'll debate for the remainder ...Maybe I'll regale you with tales from my brief and low level daliance(sp) into politics ...
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
    tell me what he and his admin did to not cause this
    Haha Truely spoken like someone who has absolutely no case. W. didn't do as much as he should have and I agree, but he did lower taxes which created groth in the economy. It just wasn't enough to justify the insane amount of spending our government does and it didn't do enough to help keep jobs here in our country by making it affordable for companies to stay here.
    no case? hmm, well lowering taxes, wow. Yeah that really helped the economy. okay let me back up. I don't solely blame bush for what happened with the economy. I do blame the fact the the govt allowed the deregulation of banks and wall street to run a muck and do as they please. It started with Reagan and continued. Both REP and DEM did nothing to fix it. My thing is as President, Bush should have done something to stop the greed among his administration and the white house should have watched Wallstreet much more along with had tighter regulations. Once again it's not all bush's fault. What is his fault is: Bringing America to war with Iraq on evidence that was falsified, and not concrete. not following through with terrorist attacks on 911. condoning torture and admitting torture (though it is illegal). dropping the ball on his no child left behind bill. Pushing 750 billion dollars which had no limitation or any oversight onto wall street and the banks. ...

    I do think bush was a boob and that this country has been being run by greedy, self important leeches and that is what brought things too the breaking point. Just lowering taxes on large companies does not keep them here. Large companies don't pay a whole hell of a lot of taxes, there's a electric company here in portland, the largest in portland that paid apprx 12 dollars in taxes last year. there are others that hardly pay any as well. What keeps companies from hiring people here and moving overseas is that they can pay people less, far less than what they can here due to the cost of living. paying 1.50 in a poverty ridden country vs 18 here makes great sense for the business, except that person won't buy anything from the company, they won't spend it in our economy and our people lose jobs. It's been happening for years and it is very wrong. Americans, a lot of them are pretty well educated and like their privacy and their ability to provide for their families. Though if companies keep leaving and taking the jobs with them more and more will be out of a job and living in poverty. American's get paid more due to the fact that it costs more to live here and paying American's a fair and good wage should not be such a problem. The company will still make money and the economy will grow. Just because a company is taxed or not taxed more or less will keep it here. It is greed, greed for more money. This country has been over-turned by greed from private agencies and it just keeps getting worse. People say that a national health care is wrong. Well so is what we have. if you like it, then fine, but millions of people can't afford it and hell my parents are one of them. My fathers retirement was severely damaged by Enron and he has had to work an extra 10 years and even that won't be enough for my parents to live decently. My mother still has to work and they are very worried about all the medical expenses. I want a national system, I think in the long run it will work much better. 'Cause what we have now will only get worse. Something new has to be done, and I think things might be moving in the right direction.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
    tell me what he and his admin did to not cause this
    Haha Truely spoken like someone who has absolutely no case. W. didn't do as much as he should have and I agree, but he did lower taxes which created groth in the economy. It just wasn't enough to justify the insane amount of spending our government does and it didn't do enough to help keep jobs here in our country by making it affordable for companies to stay here.
    no case? hmm, well lowering taxes, wow. Yeah that really helped the economy. okay let me back up. I don't solely blame bush for what happened with the economy. I do blame the fact the the govt allowed the deregulation of banks and wall street to run a muck and do as they please. It started with Reagan and continued. Both REP and DEM did nothing to fix it. My thing is as President, Bush should have done something to stop the greed among his administration and the white house should have watched Wallstreet much more along with had tighter regulations. Once again it's not all bush's fault. What is his fault is: Bringing America to war with Iraq on evidence that was falsified, and not concrete. not following through with terrorist attacks on 911. condoning torture and admitting torture (though it is illegal). dropping the ball on his no child left behind bill. Pushing 750 billion dollars which had no limitation or any oversight onto wall street and the banks. ...

    I do think bush was a boob and that this country has been being run by greedy, self important leeches and that is what brought things too the breaking point. Just lowering taxes on large companies does not keep them here. Large companies don't pay a whole hell of a lot of taxes, there's a electric company here in portland, the largest in portland that paid apprx 12 dollars in taxes last year. there are others that hardly pay any as well. What keeps companies from hiring people here and moving overseas is that they can pay people less, far less than what they can here due to the cost of living. paying 1.50 in a poverty ridden country vs 18 here makes great sense for the business, except that person won't buy anything from the company, they won't spend it in our economy and our people lose jobs. It's been happening for years and it is very wrong. Americans, a lot of them are pretty well educated and like their privacy and their ability to provide for their families. Though if companies keep leaving and taking the jobs with them more and more will be out of a job and living in poverty. American's get paid more due to the fact that it costs more to live here and paying American's a fair and good wage should not be such a problem. The company will still make money and the economy will grow. Just because a company is taxed or not taxed more or less will keep it here. It is greed, greed for more money. This country has been over-turned by greed from private agencies and it just keeps getting worse. People say that a national health care is wrong. Well so is what we have. if you like it, then fine, but millions of people can't afford it and hell my parents are one of them. My fathers retirement was severely damaged by Enron and he has had to work an extra 10 years and even that won't be enough for my parents to live decently. My mother still has to work and they are very worried about all the medical expenses. I want a national system, I think in the long run it will work much better. 'Cause what we have now will only get worse. Something new has to be done, and I think things might be moving in the right direction.
    Well I'm glad to see you did attempt to back up your claims, but you still didn't prove your point that President Bush was "especially" to blame for this melt down. The deregulation was a bipartisan effort. That was not a Bush bill. He signed it but he didn't write it and it wasn't just Republicans that supported it.

    Also it's funny that you call the intelligence about Iraq falsified, because it was the exact same intelligence that was handed down to him from President Clinton... So he isn't the one that falsified it. Torturing people whether he condoned or even KNEW about it in no way caused our economic problems...
    Enron... Horrible things happened because of those people... Again in no way Bush's fault.

    Keeping companies here in the US so they are providing jobs? That would be great! But it won't happen when the Democrats keep raising the minimum wage. I'm sorry but we can't compete with other nations. I don't blame them for going over seas. I don't like it, but it is Darwinism applied in business just like in nature. You do what you can to survive and provide for yourself the best you can. Until the U.S. becomes a competitive and affordable place to base a company, we will continue to lose jobs overseas.
  • urbinourbino Posts: 4,517
    kuzi16:
    I'm going to ignore the CRA argument, since I've addressed it before. I'll just repeat that it's bogus and leave it at that.

    The more interesting thing to me in this post is von Mises (and Hayek and the rest of the Austrian school). A question, kuz: if von Mises, et al., are right, why don't more economists agree with them?

    Their theories have been around almost as long as Keynes's. Why have the vast majority of the people who devote their working lives to the study of economics disagreed with the Austrians' theory and agreed with Keynes's? Has the economic profession been overwhelmingly peopled by axe-grinding socialists at every moment for the past 70 years?

    It seems to me the free market of ideas has spoken pretty loudly on this one.
  • PuroFreakPuroFreak Posts: 4,132
    Also I would like to point out that in the year 2000, the final year of the Clinton era, the top 25% of earners in our country paid 84.0% of the total taxes. In 2003 the top 25% paid 86% of the total taxes... That is an INCREASE on the rich under a Republican President!!! OMG!!!! I'm not saying I agree with that, but it hurts your case that President Bush is mostly to blame.
  • urbinourbino Posts: 4,517
    That's not a tax increase in any accepted definition of the term. If last year you paid 25% on a million dollar income, and I paid 15% on a 50,000 dollar income; then this year you're paying 20% on a 5 million dollar income while I'm still paying 15% on a 50,000 dollar income, I'm sorry, but you have not suffered a tax increase just because the percentage of total tax revenues paid by you went up.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    PuroFreak:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Krieg:
    So I was watching Fox news last night and saw something on there that said "America is all about freedom, and the freedom to drive everywhere we want is a freedom we can cherish," or something like it, I started thinking that so after fighting a Revolution, 2 world wars, Civil Rights, Vietnam, and many others, Americans died for us to be able to drive and live anywhere we want? What ever happened to personal responsibilty, living our own lives without Government interference? Oh, and let's not forget suffering the consequences of our own stupid decisions? No thanks Mr. Obama, take more of my money, spend my children's future and give me some more government. There isn't anything Government can't fix...yeah right. I had to get this off my chest.
    well you had me at fox news... let me just say that if all these people weren't helped than there would be a much greater problem. But fox news and their large pocket news casters and talking heads love feeding the greed of corporations and other such lucrative industries. I for one do not like to see people living on the streets and on welfare. And a lot of these people who are in this problem aren't there intirely of their own fault. some made bad decisions but hey, are they worth less than paying 300 billion to banks and walstreet? I think the problem is the ME mentality. everyone has their own right of opinion but I for one want to see Americans succeed and stay in their homes (and this is really meant for people who are willing to pay, it's not a free ride) and not go on welfare, or be in a state housing building or on un-employment. Oh and a lot of these people had just lost their jobs!! And a lot of this economic disaster is in part of the last few presidents especially W.
    Ok Phobic, tell me exactly what "W." did to cause this. I'm really curious...
    tell me what he and his admin did to not cause this
    Haha Truely spoken like someone who has absolutely no case. W. didn't do as much as he should have and I agree, but he did lower taxes which created groth in the economy. It just wasn't enough to justify the insane amount of spending our government does and it didn't do enough to help keep jobs here in our country by making it affordable for companies to stay here.
    no case? hmm, well lowering taxes, wow. Yeah that really helped the economy. okay let me back up. I don't solely blame bush for what happened with the economy. I do blame the fact the the govt allowed the deregulation of banks and wall street to run a muck and do as they please. It started with Reagan and continued. Both REP and DEM did nothing to fix it. My thing is as President, Bush should have done something to stop the greed among his administration and the white house should have watched Wallstreet much more along with had tighter regulations. Once again it's not all bush's fault. What is his fault is: Bringing America to war with Iraq on evidence that was falsified, and not concrete. not following through with terrorist attacks on 911. condoning torture and admitting torture (though it is illegal). dropping the ball on his no child left behind bill. Pushing 750 billion dollars which had no limitation or any oversight onto wall street and the banks. ...

    I do think bush was a boob and that this country has been being run by greedy, self important leeches and that is what brought things too the breaking point. Just lowering taxes on large companies does not keep them here. Large companies don't pay a whole hell of a lot of taxes, there's a electric company here in portland, the largest in portland that paid apprx 12 dollars in taxes last year. there are others that hardly pay any as well. What keeps companies from hiring people here and moving overseas is that they can pay people less, far less than what they can here due to the cost of living. paying 1.50 in a poverty ridden country vs 18 here makes great sense for the business, except that person won't buy anything from the company, they won't spend it in our economy and our people lose jobs. It's been happening for years and it is very wrong. Americans, a lot of them are pretty well educated and like their privacy and their ability to provide for their families. Though if companies keep leaving and taking the jobs with them more and more will be out of a job and living in poverty. American's get paid more due to the fact that it costs more to live here and paying American's a fair and good wage should not be such a problem. The company will still make money and the economy will grow. Just because a company is taxed or not taxed more or less will keep it here. It is greed, greed for more money. This country has been over-turned by greed from private agencies and it just keeps getting worse. People say that a national health care is wrong. Well so is what we have. if you like it, then fine, but millions of people can't afford it and hell my parents are one of them. My fathers retirement was severely damaged by Enron and he has had to work an extra 10 years and even that won't be enough for my parents to live decently. My mother still has to work and they are very worried about all the medical expenses. I want a national system, I think in the long run it will work much better. 'Cause what we have now will only get worse. Something new has to be done, and I think things might be moving in the right direction.
    Well I'm glad to see you did attempt to back up your claims, but you still didn't prove your point that President Bush was "especially" to blame for this melt down. The deregulation was a bipartisan effort. That was not a Bush bill. He signed it but he didn't write it and it wasn't just Republicans that supported it.

    Also it's funny that you call the intelligence about Iraq falsified, because it was the exact same intelligence that was handed down to him from President Clinton... So he isn't the one that falsified it. Torturing people whether he condoned or even KNEW about it in no way caused our economic problems...
    Enron... Horrible things happened because of those people... Again in no way Bush's fault.

    Keeping companies here in the US so they are providing jobs? That would be great! But it won't happen when the Democrats keep raising the minimum wage. I'm sorry but we can't compete with other nations. I don't blame them for going over seas. I don't like it, but it is Darwinism applied in business just like in nature. You do what you can to survive and provide for yourself the best you can. Until the U.S. becomes a competitive and affordable place to base a company, we will continue to lose jobs overseas.
    I'm not going to try to argue with you about bush, the guy failed big time. same intelligence? I doubt it, clinton's admin didn't invade Iraq, it was the bush admin that went before the American people and said Iraq was to blame and that they had nukes and bio warfare. But let's ignore Sierra and Pakistan... You can back Bush up all you want but the fact is the intel was bad and there was no evidence to invade that country. Now there is a lot of evidence to take out Sierra and Pakistan, they harbor terrorists. I was pissed at Clinton for not engaging the attack on the US navy ship that was bombed. I am not saying I loved Clinton, i think he made some big mistakes too.

    so because the minimum wage is raised that's why business move overseas? ummm, yeah like taco bell or burger king are the one's I'm talking about... The fact is the cost of living has went so far up due to inflation that the wage is just standing still. Blame democrats for that all you want....
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    It is clear to me that we all share different views some way different views. I personally like facts and though I would say that I am no where near an expert on politics or the economy I know that if something doesn't work, don't do it again. Big business could care less about people, they just want money and if it tears this country down then so be it. I don't like to see people suffer and I want this nation to be great once more and that isn't going to happen by letting people lose their jobs, work all the time and have no time to spend with their family, and lose their homes even though they are williing to pay for them. If you feel that these things should happen then you are a very empty person. I consider myself to be a big ass when it comes to helping people but on a national level I look past my own feelings such as, "I work my butt off, why does he or her get a hand out?". Cause I'll tell you, thousands of people every day get my hard earned dollars and just sit on their ass. But hey, if my tax dollars can help out a family stay in their home and allow them to keep paying their loan off then why the hell not??!!! It's not free money. Now bailing out big business for taking advantage of people, *** that. no way.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭
    urbino:
    kuzi16:
    I'm going to ignore the CRA argument, since I've addressed it before. I'll just repeat that it's bogus and leave it at that.

    The more interesting thing to me in this post is von Mises (and Hayek and the rest of the Austrian school). A question, kuz: if von Mises, et al., are right, why don't more economists agree with them?

    Their theories have been around almost as long as Keynes's. Why have the vast majority of the people who devote their working lives to the study of economics disagreed with the Austrians' theory and agreed with Keynes's? Has the economic profession been overwhelmingly peopled by axe-grinding socialists at every moment for the past 70 years?

    It seems to me the free market of ideas has spoken pretty loudly on this one.
    the free market had nothing to do with this. the US and housing market have not been a truly free market in over 100 years. the "free market" has not spoken at all.

    why have they gone to keynes's ideas? I think it has something to do with control and the power that those ideas embody. Government has a way of always growing. and they erode at the liberties of people in many ways and its always for "the good of the people"
    we raise taxes for the good of the people
    we raise taxes for the good of the children
    we raise taxes for the good of the poor.
    all of those are at the expense of the individual. we are so worried about the good of the collective that the liberties of the individual are forgotten.
    Liberals often make the same argument with national security... "the rights of the individual are being forgotten in the name of "national security" ... and they are right about that.
    this is that concept-- but in economics. If all we do is look out for the well being of the collective the individual rights will be lost, and that is worse than a poor economy. this is a more philosophical look at economics, so it is harder to grasp by many. this may explain the aversion to it in society.

    there is little to no scientific proof of that. It is what my gut tells me. I will not NOT trust my gut. It has never led me astray so far. My gut tells me that personal responsibility and personal liberties must not be separated from people. Doing so will drag any person/nation down.
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