I'm not going to try to argue with you about bush, the guy failed big time. same intelligence? I doubt it, clinton's admin didn't invade Iraq, it was the bush admin that went before the American people and said Iraq was to blame and that they had nukes and bio warfare. But let's ignore Sierra and Pakistan... You can back Bush up all you want but the fact is the intel was bad and there was no evidence to invade that country. Now there is a lot of evidence to take out Sierra and Pakistan, they harbor terrorists. I was pissed at Clinton for not engaging the attack on the US navy ship that was bombed. I am not saying I loved Clinton, i think he made some big mistakes too.
so because the minimum wage is raised that's why business move overseas? ummm, yeah like taco bell or burger king are the one's I'm talking about... The fact is the cost of living has went so far up due to inflation that the wage is just standing still. Blame democrats for that all you want....
Ok, well if you do a little research you will see that the intel that Powell presented to the UN and that The administration presented to the country was the EXACT same intel that Clinton had. It was handed down from the Clinton administration. It wasn't anything new...
It's funny that you had a problem with torture in a post earlier, but you don't seem to see the problem with the people in Iraq who were tortured and the men would had to watch their wives and daughters raped by Sadam's sons and henchmen simply because they disagreed with the way he runs things... Hundreds of Thousands of Kurds in northen Iraq killed simply because Sadam thought of them as "less than human." Liberals constantly protest for "Human rights" but when one of the BIGGEST violators of human rights is taken out they see it as a bad thing...
It is also sad that you see "big business" as the bad guy in this country considering they provide the majority of the jobs in this country. Yes the minumum wage is too high. The minumum wage affects everyone making with $20 an hour of it. The higher the minimum wage creeps, the more people see that and say, hey, I'm only making a few more bucks an hour than the guy flipping burgers. This is bad for worker moral, those of them that are Union protest and go on strike and their wages get raised, this keeps going and going until companies can't afford to pay wages for workers here, so yes, the jobs go overseas. You may say this is only for minimum wage highschool kids flipping burgers, but how many times do you call customer support and the voice on the other end of the line has a VERY thick Indian accent? Thats right... Keep jacking up that minimum wage and trying to punish big business... Thats the way to keep us on track. You blame inflation, but as Duty pointed out earlier, inflation isn't a problem what-so-ever in our current economic state.
I see the points you are trying to make and I understand what you are saying, but 90% of your opinions are based on emotion and not factual evidence or logic. You don't like Bush so you are going to blame him. Thats fine, but when you have absolutely nothing saying he is to blame, then your case seems REALLY thin. Just saying it's his fault or just saying he is greedy doesn't cut it to back up your point.
W did the same thing that Clinton, HW, and Regan did. they did nothing. nothing to fix the problem that stemmed from The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 that helped let people get into loans they could not afford.
I'm going to ignore the CRA argument, since I've addressed it before. I'll just repeat that it's bogus and leave it at that.
The more interesting thing to me in this post is von Mises (and Hayek and the rest of the Austrian school). A question, kuz: if von Mises, et al., are right, why don't more economists agree with them?
Their theories have been around almost as long as Keynes's. Why have the vast majority of the people who devote their working lives to the study of economics disagreed with the Austrians' theory and agreed with Keynes's? Has the economic profession been overwhelmingly peopled by axe-grinding socialists at every moment for the past 70 years?
It seems to me the free market of ideas has spoken pretty loudly on this one.
the free market had nothing to do with this. the US and housing market have not been a truly free market in over 100 years. the "free market" has not spoken at all.
You're misinterpreting his use of "free market" ... and even in your misinterpretation you are wrong.
kuzi16:
why have they gone to keynes's ideas? I think it has something to do with control and the power that those ideas embody. Government has a way of always growing. and they erode at the liberties of people in many ways and its always for "the good of the people" we raise taxes for the good of the people we raise taxes for the good of the children we raise taxes for the good of the poor. all of those are at the expense of the individual. we are so worried about the good of the collective that the liberties of the individual are forgotten.
kuzi16:
Liberals often make the same argument with national security... "the rights of the individual are being forgotten in the name of "national security" ... and they are right about that. this is that concept-- but in economics. If all we do is look out for the well being of the collective the individual rights will be lost, and that is worse than a poor economy. this is a more philosophical look at economics, so it is harder to grasp by many. this may explain the aversion to it in society.
there is little to no scientific proof of that. It is what my gut tells me. I will not NOT trust my gut. It has never led me astray so far. My gut tells me that personal responsibility and personal liberties must not be separated from people. Doing so will drag any person/nation down.
I'll go back to the HOA example. People collectively agree to create an association which builds a community and offers protection to the homes and their values. The HOA board is elected by the members of the community, and the rules are made by the board. This is the way it works in a democratic society. When we, as members of the HOA, don't like the way the rules have been composed, we elect to remove those board members.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
It is clear to me that we all share different views some way different views. I personally like facts and though I would say that I am no where near an expert on politics or the economy I know that if something doesn't work, don't do it again.
You say this but yet you want a nationalized healthcare system? This system already has been tried. In Britain, France, Germany, Canada, and it is truly garbage. I like to see what your opinion is on this matter when you are much older and need a certain drug to treat an issue, and guess what...the Government says it's too expensive and will not cover it...what's that you say? You will just pay for it yourself? Well, that's just a dandy idea... BUT under Obama's plan, paying for your own healthcare will be illegal. Obama has no intention on fixing our healthcare system, this is ALL about control over YOU. Because once they have control over your healthcare, they have control over you.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
as soon as you start to rely on others to make your life better you will only be disappointed.
ever hear the saying " if you want something done right you have to do it yourself" ? its true for a reason
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
It doesn't really say you have a right to eat either.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
It doesn't really say you have a right to eat either.
Yea, but it amazes me how many fat people out there are also poor! haha
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
i think i may have said this before...
Leonard Peikoff:
Now our only rights... are the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. That's all. According to the Founding Fathers, we are not born with a right to a trip to Disneyland, or a meal at McDonald's, or a kidney dialysis (nor with the 18th-century equivalent of these things). We have certain specific rightsand only these.
Why only these? Observe that all legitimate rights have one thing in common: they are rights to action, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. The system guarantees you the chance to work for what you wantnot to be given it without effort by somebody else.
The right to life, e.g., does not mean that your neighbors have to feed and clothe you; it means you have the right to earn your food and clothes yourself, if necessary by a hard struggle, and that no one can forcibly stop your struggle for these things or steal them from you if and when you have achieved them. In other words: you have the right to act, and to keep the results of your actions, the products you make, to keep them or to trade them with others
yes there are economic numbers that may point to improvement in this part of the economy or that part of the economy if you raise this tax or that tax. each of those taxes is a limitation on some person's right to act, and to keep the results of their actions, the products they make.
go on and spout numbers and equations all you want. Feel free to talk all you want about our moral obligation to take care of our fellow man. that is futile. there is no such moral obligation. Even if there was that moral obligation, people will not, by nature, live up to it. You cannot force anybody to do anything by law. they will do what they want anyway. people will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses. If they would, communism, Marxism, and all other social programs would not fail. They do fail. I am talking about something that can only be measured in the soul of the individual. There is no unit to measure Freedom and individual liberties.
i saw that after i posted but was to lazy to go back and fix it.
i am not wrong however that the US (especially in the housing market) does not and has not had a "free market" in a very long time... longer than i have been alive.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
It is clear to me that we all share different views some way different views. I personally like facts and though I would say that I am no where near an expert on politics or the economy I know that if something doesn't work, don't do it again.
You say this but yet you want a nationalized healthcare system? This system already has been tried. In Britain, France, Germany, Canada, and it is truly garbage. I like to see what your opinion is on this matter when you are much older and need a certain drug to treat an issue, and guess what...the Government says it's too expensive and will not cover it...what's that you say? You will just pay for it yourself? Well, that's just a dandy idea... BUT under Obama's plan, paying for your own healthcare will be illegal. Obama has no intention on fixing our healthcare system, this is ALL about control over YOU. Because once they have control over your healthcare, they have control over you.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs
All of the countries you listed have a better healthcare system than ours, as measure by cost of healthcare, accessibility to healthcare, and quality of coverage. Also, Obama has not laid out a specific plan, and has certainly not said it would be illegal to buy your own healthcare. He has brought together minds from all sides of the issue to discuss healthcare reform. He hasn't even gone so far as to say that all people in the U.S. must be provided free healthcare.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
Who on here EVER said it did??? That was a strange statement! We don't have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere we want. Individual places of businesses SHOULD be able to make the choice theirselves. But as far as cigars being a right, they are not. They are a privledge if you can afford them.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
If that was the case then the "Right to life" would also mean that abortions are banned by the Constitution... Hmmm... I bet that would ruffle some feathers!
I'm not going to try to argue with you about bush, the guy failed big time. same intelligence? I doubt it, clinton's admin didn't invade Iraq, it was the bush admin that went before the American people and said Iraq was to blame and that they had nukes and bio warfare. But let's ignore Sierra and Pakistan... You can back Bush up all you want but the fact is the intel was bad and there was no evidence to invade that country. Now there is a lot of evidence to take out Sierra and Pakistan, they harbor terrorists. I was pissed at Clinton for not engaging the attack on the US navy ship that was bombed. I am not saying I loved Clinton, i think he made some big mistakes too.
so because the minimum wage is raised that's why business move overseas? ummm, yeah like taco bell or burger king are the one's I'm talking about... The fact is the cost of living has went so far up due to inflation that the wage is just standing still. Blame democrats for that all you want....
Ok, well if you do a little research you will see that the intel that Powell presented to the UN and that The administration presented to the country was the EXACT same intel that Clinton had. It was handed down from the Clinton administration. It wasn't anything new...
It's funny that you had a problem with torture in a post earlier, but you don't seem to see the problem with the people in Iraq who were tortured and the men would had to watch their wives and daughters raped by Sadam's sons and henchmen simply because they disagreed with the way he runs things... Hundreds of Thousands of Kurds in northen Iraq killed simply because Sadam thought of them as "less than human." Liberals constantly protest for "Human rights" but when one of the BIGGEST violators of human rights is taken out they see it as a bad thing...
It is also sad that you see "big business" as the bad guy in this country considering they provide the majority of the jobs in this country. Yes the minumum wage is too high. The minumum wage affects everyone making with $20 an hour of it. The higher the minimum wage creeps, the more people see that and say, hey, I'm only making a few more bucks an hour than the guy flipping burgers. This is bad for worker moral, those of them that are Union protest and go on strike and their wages get raised, this keeps going and going until companies can't afford to pay wages for workers here, so yes, the jobs go overseas. You may say this is only for minimum wage highschool kids flipping burgers, but how many times do you call customer support and the voice on the other end of the line has a VERY thick Indian accent? Thats right... Keep jacking up that minimum wage and trying to punish big business... Thats the way to keep us on track. You blame inflation, but as Duty pointed out earlier, inflation isn't a problem what-so-ever in our current economic state.
I see the points you are trying to make and I understand what you are saying, but 90% of your opinions are based on emotion and not factual evidence or logic. You don't like Bush so you are going to blame him. Thats fine, but when you have absolutely nothing saying he is to blame, then your case seems REALLY thin. Just saying it's his fault or just saying he is greedy doesn't cut it to back up your point.
actually no, they are not opinions. and the fact if you believe that the intel was the same is your own, but the main thing is here that bush invaded a country on *** intel. we have the best intelligence in the world and we f'd this up? no, I don't think so. Also you can think that large corporations are the jewel to this company and though large companies do give jobs, it's the greed that I'm talking about. It has gotten out of hand. I do not have a problem with torture, I'm simply stating that for a president to admit it, a vice president to admit it, well sir, IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!! same as me smoking pot, I'd get arrested. My god!! and yes inflation is a problem, as well let us see, if it goes up, wages stay the same or go down well you see...? I can't argue with you if your stuck on the principles of the economics of the last 20+ years. They don't work, as we are seeing. Simply put.
Puro, you say that liberals are for human rights? well I would hope all of us are but if your using that a reason why the US went to Iraq and the world is a better place without him than you are solely, solely misplaced. Saddam was our puppet, we put him there and he had that country pretty well maintained. The fact is that we went there to secure our interests and perhaps even settle a score? The people we have lost and the resentment we have in the world was not worth this WAR. There is a reason why no other country helped us go into Iraq. There was no evidence that they were behind any attacks, but hey Sierra! HELLO? I'm not anti-war, but WTF why would I want to go to war just to go to war? that is seriously out there. If you can prove that this war in Iraq was justified and that it is worth us being there than okay. But sadly there is none. The objective and support was lost when we went to Iraq. now its a CF. Bush and his admin was behind that!!!! I don't like bush, and the evidence of him and his admin are all around but if you want to take the conservative, right wing approach that Rush and Hannity preach then there is no way anyone can steer you to the truth. I'm so sure that the world is a better place with Bush being in office. And you say these are my opinions? sorry bud, but no. If this last admin had not done what it had done and we had someone capable in office we would not be here, and though that statement is broad and we all know that politicians aren't really that great anyway but I would think almost any other person would have been better for the job. I mean bringing in most the people behind the Iran contra, and all that corruption in the 80's? yeah it was really a good idea.... But hey, Oil industries are richer than ever, banks are rich and made billions.
actually no, they are not opinions. and the fact if you believe that the intel was the same is your own, but the main thing is here that bush invaded a country on *** intel. we have the best intelligence in the world and we f'd this up? no, I don't think so. Also you can think that large corporations are the jewel to this company and though large companies do give jobs, it's the greed that I'm talking about. It has gotten out of hand. I do not have a problem with torture, I'm simply stating that for a president to admit it, a vice president to admit it, well sir, IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!! same as me smoking pot, I'd get arrested. My god!! and yes inflation is a problem, as well let us see, if it goes up, wages stay the same or go down well you see...? I can't argue with you if your stuck on the principles of the economics of the last 20+ years. They don't work, as we are seeing. Simply put.
Once again you are wrong wrong wrong... First off inflation is NOT about wages going down or staying the same. Inflation is about the value of the Dollar dropping when the general price of goods goes up.
Also do a little research and you will see that in 1998 Bill Clinton reported that he had intel that claimed Iraq was making WMDs and was posing a serious threat to the world... Don't just shoot off at the mouth, go check into it.
And lastly, ARE YOU **** SERIOUS??? We didnt' go into Iraq alone... Britain, Australia, Spain... yea... none of those countries went in or anything... It's not like Tony Blair wasn't helping us out... My god man. Pick up a book sometime called the butcher of Baghdad... I think it might enlighten you about our so-called puppet Sadam.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
If that was the case then the "Right to life" would also mean that abortions are banned by the Constitution... Hmmm... I bet that would ruffle some feathers!
Except that those provisions only apply to citizens
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
This is where we disagree as well, I believe that Etitlement mentality is what will be the downfall of our nation. No one owes you or anyone else a damn thing.
Sorry, I missed the part in the Constitution that said I had a right to healthcare and an education. Can you please point this out to me. Thanks.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
If that was the case then the "Right to life" would also mean that abortions are banned by the Constitution... Hmmm... I bet that would ruffle some feathers!
Except that those provisions only apply to citizens
Then why do we have people filing law suits every freakin day because the "civil liberties" of ILLEGAL ALIENS are being violated? Also if that child is born, it will be a citizen and if has the "right to life" according to the constitution. Now I'm not arguing against abortion because I honestly have mixed emotions on the subject and don't have a firm stance on it. I'm just pointing out that by your definition, abortion would be banned by the constitution.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
"...the pursuit of happiness"
and if your doing so infringes on the right of another to live or pursue happiness?
Who on here ever said it is a right to smoke a cigar anywhere you want? I missed that one... smoking cigars period isn't a right, it's a privledge for those who can afford it.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
"...the pursuit of happiness"
and if your doing so infringes on the right of another to live or pursue happiness?
Who on here ever said it is a right to smoke a cigar anywhere you want? I missed that one... smoking cigars period isn't a right, it's a privledge for those who can afford it.
You still have the priviledge to purchase cigars. But, once they have them, nobody has the right to just smoke them anywhere.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
"...the pursuit of happiness"
and if your doing so infringes on the right of another to live or pursue happiness?
Who on here ever said it is a right to smoke a cigar anywhere you want? I missed that one... smoking cigars period isn't a right, it's a privledge for those who can afford it.
You still have the priviledge to purchase cigars. But, once they have them, nobody has the right to just smoke them anywhere.
I agree, I'm trying to figure out who on here said that we do have the right to smoke them anywhere we want... Thats what I missed. You threw that statement out there but I never saw what it was in regards to... I was agreeing with ya Duty! Don't F**k it up!! haha
actually no, they are not opinions. and the fact if you believe that the intel was the same is your own, but the main thing is here that bush invaded a country on *** intel. we have the best intelligence in the world and we f'd this up? no, I don't think so. Also you can think that large corporations are the jewel to this company and though large companies do give jobs, it's the greed that I'm talking about. It has gotten out of hand. I do not have a problem with torture, I'm simply stating that for a president to admit it, a vice president to admit it, well sir, IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!! same as me smoking pot, I'd get arrested. My god!! and yes inflation is a problem, as well let us see, if it goes up, wages stay the same or go down well you see...? I can't argue with you if your stuck on the principles of the economics of the last 20+ years. They don't work, as we are seeing. Simply put.
Once again you are wrong wrong wrong... First off inflation is NOT about wages going down or staying the same. Inflation is about the value of the Dollar dropping when the general price of goods goes up.
Also do a little research and you will see that in 1998 Bill Clinton reported that he had intel that claimed Iraq was making WMDs and was posing a serious threat to the world... Don't just shoot off at the mouth, go check into it.
And lastly, ARE YOU **** SERIOUS??? We didnt' go into Iraq alone... Britain, Australia, Spain... yea... none of those countries went in or anything... It's not like Tony Blair wasn't helping us out... My god man. Pick up a book sometime called the butcher of Baghdad... I think it might enlighten you about our so-called puppet Sadam.
yeah we had help at first but that soon fell flat. oh and how is that going now? well let me see, umm most left and what is left aren't worth a damn. Most of the countries in the world were not there to help and yes we are alone in this so called war or occupation. Puro were you in the military? and in something other than admin? well I was in combat and I'll tell you, it should be the last and only last approach before going to war. and sorry sir, Iraq was a CF. The objective was lost. We had no solid evidence of any weapons in Iraq, yes speculation but that's not enough. And Clinton didn't invade Iraq did he? no. It was Bush and bush's admin. If he really wanted to get rid of terrorist camps and the people who had the most to do with 911 attacks he would have went into Sierra and Pakistan. So why Iraq? US military along with a few thousand other troops invading a country with a piss poor military? yeah that is just plain weak. Also with no real evidence? yeah support that all you want and Bush.
Our support in the world's eye is squat, but since Bush has gone it is slowly gaining momentum. Why do you think so many people were watching the election, why were so many people happy to see him go? Why was his opinion rating so low? yeah there is plenty of evidence. You can rag on democrats all you want. Hell I rag on the left agenda all the time, the same is with the Right. I agree with both dem and rep ideas but not all, though both parties have lost their way, especially the republican. Some new way of thinking needs to come from both parties. Perhaps open mind thinking...
And read a **** book? Yeah maybe you should take your own advice. Dude I can see that having a friendly objectionable conversation with you is impossible. Like I've seen before from your other posts.. Dude we are here to enjoy cigars and talk about them not piss each other off with political BS. I'd rather not get into hostile debates on here at all. When you can be civil maybe I will continue.
Right after you show me the part that says you have the right to smoke a cigar anywhere.
"...the pursuit of happiness"
and if your doing so infringes on the right of another to live or pursue happiness?
Who on here ever said it is a right to smoke a cigar anywhere you want? I missed that one... smoking cigars period isn't a right, it's a privledge for those who can afford it.
actually no, they are not opinions. and the fact if you believe that the intel was the same is your own, but the main thing is here that bush invaded a country on *** intel. we have the best intelligence in the world and we f'd this up? no, I don't think so. Also you can think that large corporations are the jewel to this company and though large companies do give jobs, it's the greed that I'm talking about. It has gotten out of hand. I do not have a problem with torture, I'm simply stating that for a president to admit it, a vice president to admit it, well sir, IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!! same as me smoking pot, I'd get arrested. My god!! and yes inflation is a problem, as well let us see, if it goes up, wages stay the same or go down well you see...? I can't argue with you if your stuck on the principles of the economics of the last 20+ years. They don't work, as we are seeing. Simply put.
Once again you are wrong wrong wrong... First off inflation is NOT about wages going down or staying the same. Inflation is about the value of the Dollar dropping when the general price of goods goes up.
Also do a little research and you will see that in 1998 Bill Clinton reported that he had intel that claimed Iraq was making WMDs and was posing a serious threat to the world... Don't just shoot off at the mouth, go check into it.
And lastly, ARE YOU **** SERIOUS??? We didnt' go into Iraq alone... Britain, Australia, Spain... yea... none of those countries went in or anything... It's not like Tony Blair wasn't helping us out... My god man. Pick up a book sometime called the butcher of Baghdad... I think it might enlighten you about our so-called puppet Sadam.
yeah we had help at first but that soon fell flat. oh and how is that going now? well let me see, umm most left and what is left aren't worth a damn. Most of the countries in the world were not there to help and yes we are alone in this so called war or occupation. Puro were you in the military? and in something other than admin? well I was in combat and I'll tell you, it should be the last and only last approach before going to war. and sorry sir, Iraq was a CF. The objective was lost. We had no solid evidence of any weapons in Iraq, yes speculation but that's not enough. And Clinton didn't invade Iraq did he? no. It was Bush and bush's admin. If he really wanted to get rid of terrorist camps and the people who had the most to do with 911 attacks he would have went into Sierra and Pakistan. So why Iraq? US military along with a few thousand other troops invading a country with a piss poor military? yeah that is just plain weak. Also with no real evidence? yeah support that all you want and Bush.
Our support in the world's eye is squat, but since Bush has gone it is slowly gaining momentum. Why do you think so many people were watching the election, why were so many people happy to see him go? Why was his opinion rating so low? yeah there is plenty of evidence. You can rag on democrats all you want. Hell I rag on the left agenda all the time, the same is with the Right. I agree with both dem and rep ideas but not all, though both parties have lost their way, especially the republican. Some new way of thinking needs to come from both parties. Perhaps open mind thinking...
And read a **** book? Yeah maybe you should take your own advice. Dude I can see that having a friendly objectionable conversation with you is impossible. Like I've seen before from your other posts.. Dude we are here to enjoy cigars and talk about them not piss each other off with political BS. I'd rather not get into hostile debates on here at all. When you can be civil maybe I will continue.
I'm very civil and I have no personal problems with you or anyone on here. I love a heated debate. I'm sorry if you got too riled up emotionally. I can't help it, I just don't take other peoples opposing views that personaly.
Also about the book, I wasn't saying just for you to go read a book like you are an idiot that doesn't read. I was recommending you read a little of that book because it is a very accurate potrayal of the life of Sadam. I enjoy debating with you and anyone else on here, but if you can't help but get that angry and emotional then maybe you shouldn't debate on here or at least not get so worked up. It's just a bunch of peoples opinions.
actually no, they are not opinions. and the fact if you believe that the intel was the same is your own, but the main thing is here that bush invaded a country on *** intel. we have the best intelligence in the world and we f'd this up? no, I don't think so. Also you can think that large corporations are the jewel to this company and though large companies do give jobs, it's the greed that I'm talking about. It has gotten out of hand. I do not have a problem with torture, I'm simply stating that for a president to admit it, a vice president to admit it, well sir, IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!! same as me smoking pot, I'd get arrested. My god!! and yes inflation is a problem, as well let us see, if it goes up, wages stay the same or go down well you see...? I can't argue with you if your stuck on the principles of the economics of the last 20+ years. They don't work, as we are seeing. Simply put.
Once again you are wrong wrong wrong... First off inflation is NOT about wages going down or staying the same. Inflation is about the value of the Dollar dropping when the general price of goods goes up.
Also do a little research and you will see that in 1998 Bill Clinton reported that he had intel that claimed Iraq was making WMDs and was posing a serious threat to the world... Don't just shoot off at the mouth, go check into it.
And lastly, ARE YOU **** SERIOUS??? We didnt' go into Iraq alone... Britain, Australia, Spain... yea... none of those countries went in or anything... It's not like Tony Blair wasn't helping us out... My god man. Pick up a book sometime called the butcher of Baghdad... I think it might enlighten you about our so-called puppet Sadam.
yeah we had help at first but that soon fell flat. oh and how is that going now? well let me see, umm most left and what is left aren't worth a damn. Most of the countries in the world were not there to help and yes we are alone in this so called war or occupation. Puro were you in the military? and in something other than admin? well I was in combat and I'll tell you, it should be the last and only last approach before going to war. and sorry sir, Iraq was a CF. The objective was lost. We had no solid evidence of any weapons in Iraq, yes speculation but that's not enough. And Clinton didn't invade Iraq did he? no. It was Bush and bush's admin. If he really wanted to get rid of terrorist camps and the people who had the most to do with 911 attacks he would have went into Sierra and Pakistan. So why Iraq? US military along with a few thousand other troops invading a country with a piss poor military? yeah that is just plain weak. Also with no real evidence? yeah support that all you want and Bush.
Our support in the world's eye is squat, but since Bush has gone it is slowly gaining momentum. Why do you think so many people were watching the election, why were so many people happy to see him go? Why was his opinion rating so low? yeah there is plenty of evidence. You can rag on democrats all you want. Hell I rag on the left agenda all the time, the same is with the Right. I agree with both dem and rep ideas but not all, though both parties have lost their way, especially the republican. Some new way of thinking needs to come from both parties. Perhaps open mind thinking...
And read a **** book? Yeah maybe you should take your own advice. Dude I can see that having a friendly objectionable conversation with you is impossible. Like I've seen before from your other posts.. Dude we are here to enjoy cigars and talk about them not piss each other off with political BS. I'd rather not get into hostile debates on here at all. When you can be civil maybe I will continue.
I'm very civil and I have no personal problems with you or anyone on here. I love a heated debate. I'm sorry if you got too riled up emotionally. I can't help it, I just don't take other peoples opposing views that personaly.
Also about the book, I wasn't saying just for you to go read a book like you are an idiot that doesn't read. I was recommending you read a little of that book because it is a very accurate potrayal of the life of Sadam. I enjoy debating with you and anyone else on here, but if you can't help but get that angry and emotional then maybe you shouldn't debate on here or at least not get so worked up. It's just a bunch of peoples opinions.
I wasn't worked up but if your going to ask me to back my words up you should do the same. and I fail to see you do that. Saddam was a tyrant and I never disagreed with you on that. But I don't think taking him out of power and the war on the Taliban have anything to do with each other. WE lost the objective going to Iraq. Plain and Simple. And hell it wasn't worth the countless lives in doing so. Yeah he was not a very nice guy, but what dictator is? or matter of fact who gives the US the right? There are much more productive things for our military to do rather than over-through a dictator, I mean if we are going to at least make it worth our troubles! There are much worse countries out there than Iraq.
Ok, my points were well backed up because I never said Iraq had anything to do with the Taliban or 9/11. My point was that the WMD intel was the same intel Clinton had, so the claim that Bush falsified it is bogus. To say the intel was faulty I can agree with. My opinion is that getting rid of Sadam was enough of a reason to get rid of him, you disagree with that and there is nothing wrong with that. We have a difference of opinion and that happens all the time. Hell if everyone had the same opinions there would be no need for all the different cigar brands out there... and this would be a boring hobby! haha
It seems to me the free market of ideas has spoken pretty loudly on this one.
the free market had nothing to do with this. the US and housing market have not been a truly free market in over 100 years. the "free market" has not spoken at all.
Housing market? Huh? What's that got to do with the history of economic theory? I said "free market of ideas," which I meant in the Jeffersonian sense. In this case, it's the competition between Austrian economics and Keynesian economics for adherents. Those two ideas have been in competition with each other for over half a century, and throughout that entire time, far more economists have found Keynes's analysis persuasive than the Austrians'.
That's the free market competition I'm talking about. If von Mises is right, why do so few of his fellow economists think so?
kuzi16:
this is a more philosophical look at economics, so it is harder to grasp by many.
There's nothing unusually philosophical about libertarian economics. All economic theories are philosophically rooted. Adam Smith's was rooted in the Scottish Moral Sense School of philosophy, of which he was a prominent member. He wasn't an economist by training or by profession; he was a philosopher. His economic theory was a by-product of his moral philosophy. Keynesian economics is rooted in Smith's ideas, the epistemology of G.E. Moore, and Keynes's anthropology. Marxist economics is rooted, of course, in the philosophy of Karl Marx (again, a philosopher, not an economist), which in turn has its roots in Hegelian philosophy. Ph.D.-level economists are perfectly aware of all of this.
This has always been one of my beefs with libertarian thinkers. They talk as if they're the only ones really thinking deeply and philosophically about these issues and everybody else is just too shallow or lazy or dumb to understand them; that if everybody else wasn't so lazy and shallow, they would be libertarians, too.
Ayn Rand is the uber-example. It's hard to say who's more arrogant: her, or the protagonists she invents in her books. Ayn, baby, it's not that nobody else understands you and your Mr. Galt. We understand you perfectly; you're not exactly complicated. We just find you completely unpersuasive.
kuzi16:
this may explain the aversion to it in society.
I'm not talking about society. I'm talking about people who have devoted their lives to the study of economics. People who are, like von Mises, specialists in the field. Very few of them find his arguments persuasive.
One more thought to back up my point about the Iraq WMD Intel, here is a direct quote from President Clinton and here is a news story about the source of the faulty intel. Not fasified by the Bush administration.
If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraqs weapons of mass destruction program.
President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
Comments
It's funny that you had a problem with torture in a post earlier, but you don't seem to see the problem with the people in Iraq who were tortured and the men would had to watch their wives and daughters raped by Sadam's sons and henchmen simply because they disagreed with the way he runs things... Hundreds of Thousands of Kurds in northen Iraq killed simply because Sadam thought of them as "less than human." Liberals constantly protest for "Human rights" but when one of the BIGGEST violators of human rights is taken out they see it as a bad thing...
It is also sad that you see "big business" as the bad guy in this country considering they provide the majority of the jobs in this country. Yes the minumum wage is too high. The minumum wage affects everyone making with $20 an hour of it. The higher the minimum wage creeps, the more people see that and say, hey, I'm only making a few more bucks an hour than the guy flipping burgers. This is bad for worker moral, those of them that are Union protest and go on strike and their wages get raised, this keeps going and going until companies can't afford to pay wages for workers here, so yes, the jobs go overseas. You may say this is only for minimum wage highschool kids flipping burgers, but how many times do you call customer support and the voice on the other end of the line has a VERY thick Indian accent? Thats right... Keep jacking up that minimum wage and trying to punish big business... Thats the way to keep us on track. You blame inflation, but as Duty pointed out earlier, inflation isn't a problem what-so-ever in our current economic state.
I see the points you are trying to make and I understand what you are saying, but 90% of your opinions are based on emotion and not factual evidence or logic. You don't like Bush so you are going to blame him. Thats fine, but when you have absolutely nothing saying he is to blame, then your case seems REALLY thin. Just saying it's his fault or just saying he is greedy doesn't cut it to back up your point.
I'll go back to the HOA example. People collectively agree to create an association which builds a community and offers protection to the homes and their values. The HOA board is elected by the members of the community, and the rules are made by the board. This is the way it works in a democratic society. When we, as members of the HOA, don't like the way the rules have been composed, we elect to remove those board members.
Where we continue to butt heads is in our definition of fundamental rights and personal responsibility. I believe our society has progressed beyond the days of the cave man, and our members are entitled to basic necessities such as education and healthcare. I don't think we're going to get anywhere discussing that, because we're reduced to arguing in support of our theories. So in that, we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
"Long ashes my friends."
"Long ashes my friends."
ever hear the saying " if you want something done right you have to do it yourself" ?
its true for a reason
yes there are economic numbers that may point to improvement in this part of the economy or that part of the economy if you raise this tax or that tax.
each of those taxes is a limitation on some person's right to act, and to keep the results of their actions, the products they make.
go on and spout numbers and equations all you want. Feel free to talk all you want about our moral obligation to take care of our fellow man. that is futile. there is no such moral obligation. Even if there was that moral obligation, people will not, by nature, live up to it. You cannot force anybody to do anything by law. they will do what they want anyway.
people will not endlessly work for the benefit of the masses. If they would, communism, Marxism, and all other social programs would not fail. They do fail.
I am talking about something that can only be measured in the soul of the individual. There is no unit to measure Freedom and individual liberties.
i am not wrong however that the US (especially in the housing market) does not and has not had a "free market" in a very long time...
longer than i have been alive.
Kuzi, I would argue that a "right to life" implies the right to survive... But how can this be done if one cannot receive healthcare?
Puro, you say that liberals are for human rights? well I would hope all of us are but if your using that a reason why the US went to Iraq and the world is a better place without him than you are solely, solely misplaced. Saddam was our puppet, we put him there and he had that country pretty well maintained. The fact is that we went there to secure our interests and perhaps even settle a score? The people we have lost and the resentment we have in the world was not worth this WAR. There is a reason why no other country helped us go into Iraq. There was no evidence that they were behind any attacks, but hey Sierra! HELLO? I'm not anti-war, but WTF why would I want to go to war just to go to war? that is seriously out there. If you can prove that this war in Iraq was justified and that it is worth us being there than okay. But sadly there is none. The objective and support was lost when we went to Iraq. now its a CF. Bush and his admin was behind that!!!! I don't like bush, and the evidence of him and his admin are all around but if you want to take the conservative, right wing approach that Rush and Hannity preach then there is no way anyone can steer you to the truth. I'm so sure that the world is a better place with Bush being in office. And you say these are my opinions? sorry bud, but no. If this last admin had not done what it had done and we had someone capable in office we would not be here, and though that statement is broad and we all know that politicians aren't really that great anyway but I would think almost any other person would have been better for the job. I mean bringing in most the people behind the Iran contra, and all that corruption in the 80's? yeah it was really a good idea.... But hey, Oil industries are richer than ever, banks are rich and made billions.
Also do a little research and you will see that in 1998 Bill Clinton reported that he had intel that claimed Iraq was making WMDs and was posing a serious threat to the world... Don't just shoot off at the mouth, go check into it.
And lastly, ARE YOU **** SERIOUS??? We didnt' go into Iraq alone... Britain, Australia, Spain... yea... none of those countries went in or anything... It's not like Tony Blair wasn't helping us out... My god man. Pick up a book sometime called the butcher of Baghdad... I think it might enlighten you about our so-called puppet Sadam.
Our support in the world's eye is squat, but since Bush has gone it is slowly gaining momentum. Why do you think so many people were watching the election, why were so many people happy to see him go? Why was his opinion rating so low? yeah there is plenty of evidence. You can rag on democrats all you want. Hell I rag on the left agenda all the time, the same is with the Right. I agree with both dem and rep ideas but not all, though both parties have lost their way, especially the republican. Some new way of thinking needs to come from both parties. Perhaps open mind thinking...
And read a **** book? Yeah maybe you should take your own advice. Dude I can see that having a friendly objectionable conversation with you is impossible. Like I've seen before from your other posts.. Dude we are here to enjoy cigars and talk about them not piss each other off with political BS. I'd rather not get into hostile debates on here at all. When you can be civil maybe I will continue.
Also about the book, I wasn't saying just for you to go read a book like you are an idiot that doesn't read. I was recommending you read a little of that book because it is a very accurate potrayal of the life of Sadam. I enjoy debating with you and anyone else on here, but if you can't help but get that angry and emotional then maybe you shouldn't debate on here or at least not get so worked up. It's just a bunch of peoples opinions.
That's the free market competition I'm talking about. If von Mises is right, why do so few of his fellow economists think so? There's nothing unusually philosophical about libertarian economics. All economic theories are philosophically rooted. Adam Smith's was rooted in the Scottish Moral Sense School of philosophy, of which he was a prominent member. He wasn't an economist by training or by profession; he was a philosopher. His economic theory was a by-product of his moral philosophy. Keynesian economics is rooted in Smith's ideas, the epistemology of G.E. Moore, and Keynes's anthropology. Marxist economics is rooted, of course, in the philosophy of Karl Marx (again, a philosopher, not an economist), which in turn has its roots in Hegelian philosophy. Ph.D.-level economists are perfectly aware of all of this.
This has always been one of my beefs with libertarian thinkers. They talk as if they're the only ones really thinking deeply and philosophically about these issues and everybody else is just too shallow or lazy or dumb to understand them; that if everybody else wasn't so lazy and shallow, they would be libertarians, too.
Ayn Rand is the uber-example. It's hard to say who's more arrogant: her, or the protagonists she invents in her books. Ayn, baby, it's not that nobody else understands you and your Mr. Galt. We understand you perfectly; you're not exactly complicated. We just find you completely unpersuasive. I'm not talking about society. I'm talking about people who have devoted their lives to the study of economics. People who are, like von Mises, specialists in the field. Very few of them find his arguments persuasive.
If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraqs weapons of mass destruction program.
President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/01/60minutes/main3440577.shtml