God...Selfless or Selfish

VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,624 ✭✭✭
I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
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Comments

  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    instantly this brings up the question of the nature of God.
    as in:
    is man a creation of God, or is God a creation of man?
    if it is the former then maybe God is self centered
    if it is the latter, maybe it is man that is self centered.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Every culture has a "god". Most are a lot alike. Almost seems as a method to control people. If there is a god he sucks at his job or is just not pure and is a prankster or likes to watch people suffer. I see no justness in "god". I see the god complex as nothing more than a means of control. All throughout history "god" is used for control, sometimes for good some for bad.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    Every culture has a "god". Most are a lot alike. Almost seems as a method to control people. If there is a god he sucks at his job or is just not pure and is a prankster or likes to watch people suffer. I see no justness in "god". I see the god complex as nothing more than a means of control. All throughout history "god" is used for control, sometimes for good some for bad.
    or maybe God is a creator only and not a controller. maybe things man does are out of Gods hands.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    foremost, Jesus was a teacher. They called him as much.

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit,* for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

    * Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.

    * Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the land.

    Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,* for they will be satisfied.

    Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy

    * Blessed are the clean of heart for they will see God.

    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

    Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,* for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

    Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me.

    * Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Then he will say to them, 'I tell you with certainty, since you didn't do it for one of the least important of these, you didn't do it for me.'

    Your premiss is shallow at best.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Not gonna touch this one. I would lose way too many points on here if I allowed my true feelings on this subject out. I will say that I think this will be a very hard thread to keep on any track.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Then he will say to them, 'I tell you with certainty, since you didn't do it for one of the least important of these, you didn't do it for me.'

    Your premiss is shallow at best.
    maybe im not following here.
    care to expound on this a bit?
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    *slow clap* So respectful, as usual Vulch, so understanding of someone elses beliefs. In addition to not understanding even the basics of Christianity before talking about how much you dislike it, you completely leave Jewish or Muslim beliefs - how very PC of you, so much like http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    *slow clap* Way to not show your beliefs. So respectful, as usual Vulch, so understanding of someone elses beliefs. In addition to not understanding even the basics of Christianity, you completely leave Jewish or Muslim beliefs - how very PC of you, so respectful, so much like http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
    Macro, this is a thread for serious discussion. Why don't you stop pouting and quit with the personal attacks. You have something to say about the topic? We don't care what your personal views of Vulchor is, that is not what we are discussing and this is another example of you going on a personal attack while hiding behind coming to the rescue of someone in need. Please participate in the discussion and leave your personal baggage out of it.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    man... i didnt take this as an attack on religion. i took it as someone asking an honest question to do some honest learning. it may sound cynical to the casual observer, but to someone who is engaged with the religion and wants others to understand it, this is a teachable moment. this could be an opportunity to teach about the christian understanding of the nature of God.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    kuzi16:
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Then he will say to them, 'I tell you with certainty, since you didn't do it for one of the least important of these, you didn't do it for me.'

    Your premiss is shallow at best.
    maybe im not following here.
    care to expound on this a bit?
    Just pointing out that if you're rotten to other people, you are rotten to him. I know, the quote iss backwards for my logic. I know I'm not perfect.
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    ok... ^^^^ that makes more sense. i get what your point is.
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    beatnic:
    kuzi16:
    beatnic:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Then he will say to them, 'I tell you with certainty, since you didn't do it for one of the least important of these, you didn't do it for me.'

    Your premiss is shallow at best.
    maybe im not following here.
    care to expound on this a bit?
    Just pointing out that if you're rotten to other people, you are rotten to him. I know, the quote iss backwards for my logic. I know I'm not perfect.
    I apologize if I am misquoting you here beat as these two posts have some merging points and I am unsure as to who said what anymore.

    If being rotten to other people is being rotten to him then how can you EVER justify killing, even in war? I don't remember anything about a free pass on the morality of killing as long as it was done with government consent. Is it wrong or not? Just to play devils advocate here for a moment. What if the present administration is one not of your personal choosing. Does that change the morality of a country's actions in war? Given the debate during these times I would suggest it does indeed. So what is morality really? Seems to be defining morality in any concrete way is sort of like holding onto a bowl of jello in your bare hands. Slippery and hard to get a good hold of...
  • kuzi16kuzi16 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭
    and stemming from this...
    if society deemed that human sacrifice was "ok" does that make it right?
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    *slow clap* Way to not show your beliefs. So respectful, as usual Vulch, so understanding of someone elses beliefs. In addition to not understanding even the basics of Christianity, you completely leave Jewish or Muslim beliefs - how very PC of you, so respectful, so much like http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
    Macro, this is a thread for serious discussion. Why don't you stop pouting and quit with the personal attacks. You have something to say about the topic? We don't care what your persoanl views of Vulchor is, that is not what we are discussing and this is another example of you going on a personal attack while hiding behind coming to the rescue of someone in need. Please participate in the discussion and leave your personal baggage out of it.
    That's not the point. If you're going to have a serious discussion, it helps to have even the barest understanding before launching into something. You don't start a conversation about the nature of God with "He's a bigot and a dictator, so tell me what you think", just as you don't start a conversation with someone by saying "I don't know the first thing about you, but I think you're a bigot and a liar - tell me why I'm wrong".

    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say.
    Case in point. Completely leaves out Old Testament, focuses on the more merciful New Testament, and probably the kindest version of God out of all three major religions, saying it's selfish. No mention of Islam or Judaism, no understanding of the difference between the Old/New Testament, and probably no idea that Jesus sacrificed himself.

    My point is that you can't have a dialogue if you don't know the first thing about the subject, and start by launching by calling God a piece of ****

    Vulchor:
    I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Again, nothing but the standard atheistic I-hate-Christianity schtick you see on Reddit Atheism. Zero understanding, but plenty of blame and vitriol.

    No mention of Jesus' stating that the most important Commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Perhaps most telling is that his understanding of "how to get into Heaven" is the exact same crap you see on every atheist board on every forum across the internet - none of them have ever read the Bible, and it's a very common line of attack that the faith "allows even pedophile priests into Heaven if they just believe in God" - No, that's not the way it works, and it shows that the poster has NEVER tried to read anything about it or seek an actual source instead of the same old circlejerk.

    My problem isn't the topic, it's the way that it's breached - the constant incendiary language and lack of respect for any view that disagrees
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    kuzi16:
    and stemming from this...
    if society deemed that human sacrifice was "ok" does that make it right?
    Well this kind of plays to my whole point.

    I am not a religious person. I have some personal beliefs but they do NOT include churches or officials from churches in any way.

    I do think we are all responsible for our own personal morality. That would include standing against another or agency (read government) in defense of those morals. In other words if you honestly believe that killing is wrong then it is ALWAYS wrong. You can't just put your morals down for a little while and then pick them back up after the dirty work is done as though nothing happened. I know in todays world many would have you belive that is indeed the case but don't delude yourself... it is not. You are and will always remain, responsible for your own morality.

    Let others decide when it is OK to put down your morals in order to achieve some desired end... you have failed yourself. Think about it. I would never let anybody other then myself determine what my morals are. Not my church, not my government. Only I can determine that, and that is a very powerful feeling.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    kuzi16:
    phobicsquirrel:
    Every culture has a "god". Most are a lot alike. Almost seems as a method to control people. If there is a god he sucks at his job or is just not pure and is a prankster or likes to watch people suffer. I see no justness in "god". I see the god complex as nothing more than a means of control. All throughout history "god" is used for control, sometimes for good some for bad.
    or maybe God is a creator only and not a controller. maybe things man does are out of Gods hands.
    could be. I have not a clue. There are a lot of ideas out there.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    kuzi16:
    and stemming from this...
    if society deemed that human sacrifice was "ok" does that make it right?
    Some cultures use to think so. Sucked to be that "guy".
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    *slow clap* Way to not show your beliefs. So respectful, as usual Vulch, so understanding of someone elses beliefs. In addition to not understanding even the basics of Christianity, you completely leave Jewish or Muslim beliefs - how very PC of you, so respectful, so much like http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
    Macro, this is a thread for serious discussion. Why don't you stop pouting and quit with the personal attacks. You have something to say about the topic? We don't care what your persoanl views of Vulchor is, that is not what we are discussing and this is another example of you going on a personal attack while hiding behind coming to the rescue of someone in need. Please participate in the discussion and leave your personal baggage out of it.
    That's not the point. If you're going to have a serious discussion, it helps to have even the barest understanding before launching into something. You don't start a conversation about the nature of God with "He's a bigot and a dictator, so tell me what you think", just as you don't start a conversation with someone by saying "I don't know the first thing about you, but I think you're a bigot and a liar - tell me why I'm wrong".

    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say.
    Case in point. Completely leaves out Old Testament, focuses on the more merciful New Testament, and probably the kindest version of God out of all three major religions, saying it's selfish. No mention of Islam or Judaism, no understanding of the difference between the Old/New Testament, and probably no idea that Jesus sacrificed himself.

    My point is that you can't have a dialogue if you don't know the first thing about the subject, and start by launching by calling God a piece of ****

    Vulchor:
    I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Again, nothing but the standard atheistic I-hate-Christianity schtick you see on Reddit Atheism. Zero understanding, but plenty of blame and vitriol.

    No mention of Jesus' stating that the most important Commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Perhaps most telling is that his understanding of "how to get into Heaven" is the exact same crap you see on every atheist board on every forum across the internet - none of them have ever read the Bible, and it's a very common line of attack that the faith "allows even pedophile priests into Heaven if they just believe in God" - No, that's not the way it works, and it shows that the poster has NEVER tried to read anything about it or seek an actual source instead of the same old circlejerk.

    My problem isn't the topic, it's the way that it's breached - the constant incendiary language and lack of respect for any view that disagrees
    There is another way to look at it too Macro. If Vulchor seems to be so wrong in his beliefs then explain to him why. where and how he is mistaken. You accuse him of all these terrible things but you started your post with an attack on him. You can't have it both ways.

    You refer here to things which people at some website believe or declare as though Vulchor said them or believed them. That is totally unfair and that is the personal part of your post you should leave alone. If you don't agree with someone great, disagree. Why go after them like you did Vulchor. He stated an opinion about a group not an individual. I know you can see the difference Macro. C'mon man just try to leave the personal poison out of these discussions. You make some good points but they always get lost in the attacks, so your point never really gets any serious consideration. Just sayin'.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    jthanatos:
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
    That's why God is Dog spelled backwards.
  • xmacroxmacro Posts: 3,402
    laker1963:


    You refer here to things which people at some website believe or declare as though Vulchor said them or believed them. That is totally unfair and that is the personal part of your post you should leave alone. If you don't agree with someone great, disagree. Why go after them like you did Vulchor. He stated an opinion about a group not an individual. I know you can see the difference Macro. C'mon man just try to leave the personal poison out of these discussions. You make some good points but they always get lost in the attacks, so your point never really gets any serious consideration. Just sayin'.
    I get what you're saying, but it's not just "some website" - it's every single atheist forum discussion of this kind - all of them. You can find this topic from the Daily Kos to Reddit Atheism, from Daily Beast to 4chan. Start out with "I want to understand why God is a piece of **** - please keep discussion reasonable" - and then feign surprise when people get angry.

    It's the incendiary language of the original post that poisons any conversation that follows and shows that "understanding" isn't the point of the post, it's to score cheap points. Someone who wants to understand, whether it's a religion or how a carburetor works, doesn't begin with an attack calling the thing they're trying to understand a piece of **** unless they're making a statement instead of a question.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    JDH:
    jthanatos:
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
    That's why God is Dog spelled backwards.
    Mind = Blown.

    Also, why do these debates have to get so angry? Nothing but good can come from educated debate. The more both sides understand the other, the better we can communicate.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    jthanatos:
    JDH:
    jthanatos:
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
    That's why God is Dog spelled backwards.
    Mind = Blown.

    Also, why do these debates have to get so angry? Nothing but good can come from educated debate. The more both sides understand the other, the better we can communicate.
    "...why do these debates have to get so angry?..."

    My mom says it's all because of TV...in fact she says that for just about every problem we have these days, and I'm not so sure she's wrong, either.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    jthanatos:
    JDH:
    jthanatos:
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
    That's why God is Dog spelled backwards.
    Mind = Blown.

    Also, why do these debates have to get so angry? Nothing but good can come from educated debate. The more both sides understand the other, the better we can communicate.
    I know right! My wife is a pastor and every time this type of thing is brought up it leads to her getting really upset and we fight. I always tell her she uses emotions too much and needs to stop believing in things blindly. That's usually when I go play skyrim or smoke a cigar. Nice thing is I can out wait her and she usually wants to make up.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    jthanatos:
    JDH:
    jthanatos:
    Vulchor:
    I will preface by saying this is a debate or discussion, so please dont have every post disagreeing with me be about my personal beliefs. I will share them when asked, but alot of the time on here I use threads to plays devils adovate or open a dialogue

    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Couple points. God doesn't ever command not to be questioned. His Word is not to be added to or changed, but you should question. How else can you learn? Most of Jesus's recorded teachings come from others asking questions of him, and He responding. Yes, His way is always right, goes with the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent thing. It is true, it could be a lie, and grand plan to...what? What would an all powerful being gain from lying and manipulating people... He can already do what He wants. Why would He send His son to die? Also, if you believe in Jesus, He calls for repentance of sins... repent, to turn away from. So yes, we as humans will suck, will screw up, and He will forgive us. That most certaintly doesn't mean we should not try to stop sinning. If we just keep sinning the same way over and over....are we really repentant? Yes, if you misuse God's teachings terrible things can happen...but anything can be misused for evil.

    Except puppies. Puppies are awesome.
    That's why God is Dog spelled backwards.
    Mind = Blown.

    Also, why do these debates have to get so angry? Nothing but good can come from educated debate. The more both sides understand the other, the better we can communicate.
    I know right! My wife is a pastor and every time this type of thing is brought up it leads to her getting really upset and we fight. I always tell her she uses emotions too much and needs to stop believing in things blindly. That's usually when I go play skyrim or smoke a cigar. Nice thing is I can out wait her and she usually wants to make up.
    Read her 1 Timothy chapter 2.... then run. Run like the wind.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Just a couple quick points, just "believing" in Jesus as savior is not enough. He asks that you put everyhig else aside and follow him. Along those lines, anyone who truly believes and treasures Jesus Christ as their savior will not treat others in a poor way (of course we all make mistakes) ... a good bible quote for this is: "faith without good works is dead.". So it shouldn't be thought of as an empty proclamation.

    . Also, to touch on God's "egomania": think of this, if you will... this is a hypothetical, of course. God says "yeah, I was being selfish. You shouldn't worship me... that's a little extreme, let's give credit where its due and worship (whatever) a little too."

    Whatever can be anything, anyone, doesn't matter. If God...the one God of the universe and supreme ruler (we are talking about the Christian God) were to conceed that something other than he was worthy of worship and such reverence, wouldnt that completely undermine his supremacy, and thus his very name.. by the very nature that defines who God is, he has to hold nothing, not one thing, as more important than himself. If he did, than THAT thing would be "God".

    Good (and hard) questions, dude. I think it really helps to be able to ask and think about things like this. You know better what you believe, and why. I almost didn't answer, (at work lol!) And also I didn't want to steer anyone wrong. But I hope what I said, I said it clearly. ...and wasn't boring,haha.
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,624 ✭✭✭
    xmacro:
    laker1963:
    xmacro:
    Vulchor:
    So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    *slow clap* Way to not show your beliefs. So respectful, as usual Vulch, so understanding of someone elses beliefs. In addition to not understanding even the basics of Christianity, you completely leave Jewish or Muslim beliefs - how very PC of you, so respectful, so much like http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
    Macro, this is a thread for serious discussion. Why don't you stop pouting and quit with the personal attacks. You have something to say about the topic? We don't care what your persoanl views of Vulchor is, that is not what we are discussing and this is another example of you going on a personal attack while hiding behind coming to the rescue of someone in need. Please participate in the discussion and leave your personal baggage out of it.
    That's not the point. If you're going to have a serious discussion, it helps to have even the barest understanding before launching into something. You don't start a conversation about the nature of God with "He's a bigot and a dictator, so tell me what you think", just as you don't start a conversation with someone by saying "I don't know the first thing about you, but I think you're a bigot and a liar - tell me why I'm wrong".

    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say.
    Case in point. Completely leaves out Old Testament, focuses on the more merciful New Testament, and probably the kindest version of God out of all three major religions, saying it's selfish. No mention of Islam or Judaism, no understanding of the difference between the Old/New Testament, and probably no idea that Jesus sacrificed himself.

    My point is that you can't have a dialogue if you don't know the first thing about the subject, and start by launching by calling God a piece of ****

    Vulchor:
    I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Again, nothing but the standard atheistic I-hate-Christianity schtick you see on Reddit Atheism. Zero understanding, but plenty of blame and vitriol.

    No mention of Jesus' stating that the most important Commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Perhaps most telling is that his understanding of "how to get into Heaven" is the exact same crap you see on every atheist board on every forum across the internet - none of them have ever read the Bible, and it's a very common line of attack that the faith "allows even pedophile priests into Heaven if they just believe in God" - No, that's not the way it works, and it shows that the poster has NEVER tried to read anything about it or seek an actual source instead of the same old circlejerk.

    My problem isn't the topic, it's the way that it's breached - the constant incendiary language and lack of respect for any view that disagrees
    For the record, I have never said without question I am an atheist. If anything, I lean towards it, but I do not know. Also for the record I went to a catholic school for 12 years and a lutheran school for 4. I went thorough numerous religion classes (everyday actually), first holy communion, basptism, confirmatation, and reconciliation. I have written a 13 page report on the history of Mormonism and Joesph Smith. I have read the bible nearly cover to cover, including the chapters catholics put in that various other religions took out. I do not know much about other religiions than christianity and do not pretend to, and they were not the topic at hand for this thread.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,624 ✭✭✭
    Gray4lines:
    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Just a couple quick points, just "believing" in Jesus as savior is not enough. He asks that you put everyhig else aside and follow him. Along those lines, anyone who truly believes and treasures Jesus Christ as their savior will not treat others in a poor way (of course we all make mistakes) ... a good bible quote for this is: "faith without good works is dead.". So it shouldn't be thought of as an empty proclamation.

    . Also, to touch on God's "egomania": think of this, if you will... this is a hypothetical, of course. God says "yeah, I was being selfish. You shouldn't worship me... that's a little extreme, let's give credit where its due and worship (whatever) a little too."

    Whatever can be anything, anyone, doesn't matter. If God...the one God of the universe and supreme ruler (we are talking about the Christian God) were to conceed that something other than he was worthy of worship and such reverence, wouldnt that completely undermine his supremacy, and thus his very name.. by the very nature that defines who God is, he has to hold nothing, not one thing, as more important than himself. If he did, than THAT thing would be "God".

    Good (and hard) questions, dude. I think it really helps to be able to ask and think about things like this. You know better what you believe, and why. I almost didn't answer, (at work lol!) And also I didn't want to steer anyone wrong. But I hope what I said, I said it clearly. ...and wasn't boring,haha.
    Thanks for the thoughful response man. I understand the ida of following and putting everything aside, I just try to imagine if Jesus were around today and we had a guy saying this stuff----we would either put him in the loony bin or take out his compound in the mountains. I agree that being what god or Jesus alledly is, he has to be worshipped and #1 or else the whole thing would be for nothing. I just cannot think or anything or anyone else demanding so much...of course if there is a god, there isnt anyone with more power to ask for such a thing I guess.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Gray4lines:
    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Just a couple quick points, just "believing" in Jesus as savior is not enough. He asks that you put everyhig else aside and follow him. Along those lines, anyone who truly believes and treasures Jesus Christ as their savior will not treat others in a poor way (of course we all make mistakes) ... a good bible quote for this is: "faith without good works is dead.". So it shouldn't be thought of as an empty proclamation.

    . Also, to touch on God's "egomania": think of this, if you will... this is a hypothetical, of course. God says "yeah, I was being selfish. You shouldn't worship me... that's a little extreme, let's give credit where its due and worship (whatever) a little too."

    Whatever can be anything, anyone, doesn't matter. If God...the one God of the universe and supreme ruler (we are talking about the Christian God) were to conceed that something other than he was worthy of worship and such reverence, wouldnt that completely undermine his supremacy, and thus his very name.. by the very nature that defines who God is, he has to hold nothing, not one thing, as more important than himself. If he did, than THAT thing would be "God".

    Good (and hard) questions, dude. I think it really helps to be able to ask and think about things like this. You know better what you believe, and why. I almost didn't answer, (at work lol!) And also I didn't want to steer anyone wrong. But I hope what I said, I said it clearly. ...and wasn't boring,haha.
    Thanks for the thoughful response man. I understand the ida of following and putting everything aside, I just try to imagine if Jesus were around today and we had a guy saying this stuff----we would either put him in the loony bin or take out his compound in the mountains. I agree that being what god or Jesus alledly is, he has to be worshipped and #1 or else the whole thing would be for nothing. I just cannot think or anything or anyone else demanding so much...of course if there is a god, there isnt anyone with more power to ask for such a thing I guess.
    To add onto the putting things aside part, even the 'best' of us will fail at that. That is why we need a savior, because we are poor miserable sinners. And while thinking of a modern day Jesus appearence, remember... they tried to kill Him and lock Him up before His time, to convict Him with His words.... And everytime, the scholars and teachers, priests and experts, were left looking foolish, shown the depths of their sin and failing by their own teachings. I think modern Jesus would do ok.
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